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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:02:00 -
[1]
Today I ran accross one of buescrew Raven farmers in Branch. A quick "show info" revealed that they are part of IAC alliance again.
In case some people are still unclear, buescrew is one of the most well known chinese isk farming corps. When you see the isk seller spam on public channels, you can be sure that at least some of that isk is coming from the buescrew farm sweatshops.
If you examine many other 23/7 Raven isk farmers, you'll notice that about 30% of them have been in buescrew corp at some point.
I know that IAC is just using the isk farmers to "steal" some of their money, basically making them pay rent for regions they don't even control. But the real issue is that actions of IAC give corps like buescrew in-game legitimacy. CCP is less likely to deal with them now.
If real alliances didn't tolerate chinese isk farmers for their personal gain, CCP would have easier time identifying and banning the isk farmers.
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Minigin
Ganja Labs
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:06:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Minigin on 29/07/2007 11:15:21 scum!
btw i love you eph. /me strokes ephs bald head.
edit: ps i do see this as a real problem because this corp uses its blue standings to gain access into other regions that IAC really has no claim in. they abuse these standings to breaking points.
MINIGIN! now posting in "limegreen"
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IntegralHellsing
Gallente Neo-Asia Dynamic Instrument Mare Tranquillitatis
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:09:00 -
[3]
either that or they've been in several chinese corps famous for ISK farming. (eg. Chang corp, or others)
there's absolutely no way to catch them to be honest. they just cloak at the site of anyone.
but suuurely we can stop them by not ebaying the ISK --------------------------------------
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:09:00 -
[4]
shut up
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Minigin
Ganja Labs
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mr Broker shut up
no u
MINIGIN! now posting in "limegreen"
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Mr Broker shut up
no u
If IAC kicks the perfectly legitimate ratter corp out, I will be laugh at them for being intimitated by a nobody, whose alliance does not stand behind him.
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Minigin
Ganja Labs
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:20:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Mr Broker shut up
no u
If IAC kicks the perfectly legitimate ratter corp out, I will be laugh at them for being intimitated by a nobody, whose alliance does not stand behind him.
i doubt they will kick them out for starters. but certainly they should be considering there blues. as this corp is well known for ratting in blue sov systems without permission, and repeatedly ignoring warnings to leave. now tell me oh wise one... who are you?
MINIGIN! now posting in "limegreen"
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Mr Broker shut up
no u
If IAC kicks the perfectly legitimate ratter corp out, I will be laugh at them for being intimitated by a nobody, whose alliance does not stand behind him.
i doubt they will kick them out for starters. but certainly they should be considering there blues. as this corp is well known for ratting in blue sov systems without permission, and repeatedly ignoring warnings to leave. now tell me oh wise one... who are you?
do you have a home station? let me know, thanks
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:26:00 -
[9]
Quote: If IAC kicks the perfectly legitimate ratter corp out, I will be laugh at them for being intimitated by a nobody, whose alliance does not stand behind him.
Don't get the wrong idea. IAC knows they are isk farmers, IAC does not respect them. The very fact that IAC leaders decieve that corp by promising protection in a region that is very far from IAC regions, shows that IAC is just using them for isk.
I doubt IAC would let them farm in the regions they actually control, because then their own players would get upset by influx of chinese isk farmers. No, they send them far away and collect their isk.
But buescrew accepts that, cause they know that this way they are much less likely to get banned. Nobody is fooling anyone here, except maybe CCP.
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:29:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ephemeron But buescrew accepts that, cause they know that this way they are much less likely to get banned. Nobody is fooling anyone here, except maybe CCP.
Show me proof that CCP banned ratting farmers and not isk selling characters.
CCP doesn't banned people just because they rat 23/7 and are asian even if it is 99% likely they are isk farmers. Unless they use macros, which ratters don't.
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:30:00 -
[11]
There are still plenty of other well known isk farmer corps without an alliance, and they are still kicking strong.
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Minigin
Ganja Labs
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:50:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Minigin on 29/07/2007 11:50:57
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Mr Broker shut up
no u
If IAC kicks the perfectly legitimate ratter corp out, I will be laugh at them for being intimitated by a nobody, whose alliance does not stand behind him.
i doubt they will kick them out for starters. but certainly they should be considering there blues. as this corp is well known for ratting in blue sov systems without permission, and repeatedly ignoring warnings to leave. now tell me oh wise one... who are you?
do you have a home station? let me know, thanks
you seem stupid. check the ingame map.
MINIGIN! now posting in "limegreen"
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mr Broker There are still plenty of other well known isk farmer corps without an alliance, and they are still kicking strong.
That doesn't mean that it's ok for player alliances to use them.
I know CCP can't ban them just because they rat 23/7, never actually use all the isk they make, and are chinese.
But CCP could investigate them and find out where all that isk is going. It's not as simple as checking wallet transactions, isk sellers are smarter than that, they purchase items and transfer them in untraceable ways. CCP is very busy and won't investigate if corp looks legit, and corp looks legit if it is part of well known player alliance.
If CCP people played the game many hours a day, they would easily see all the red flags we see. But they are busy working on the game so many things slip past their attention.
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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.07.29 11:58:00 -
[14]
Interesting to see if IAC have any response.
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Minigin
Ganja Labs
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:02:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Stamm Interesting to see if IAC have any response.
i think its along the lines of... its not there problem... and i sadly have to agree with the dumb*** it really isnt... they get alot of isk out of them.
MINIGIN! now posting in "limegreen"
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Stamm
Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:24:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Stamm on 29/07/2007 12:25:03
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Stamm Interesting to see if IAC have any response.
i think its along the lines of... its not there problem... and i sadly have to agree with the dumb*** it really isnt... they get alot of isk out of them.
Of course it's their problem.
That's like buying stolen crap in a pub and saying "Oh well I didn't steal it" Of course you knew it was stolen.
Edit : Assuming they are an ISK selling corp.
Galaxian Recruitment Info |
Angeles
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:26:00 -
[17]
The issue here is not the ratters, everyone has to rat, but isk for RL cash, now those that buy this isk are the ones that should be held accountable for this problem imho
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Minigin
Ganja Labs
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Angeles The issue here is not the ratters, everyone has to rat, but isk for RL cash, now those that buy this isk are the ones that should be held accountable for this problem imho
i agree. but i think its a little more complicated than that. CCP has said no to it... i dont think any alliance should endorse it... dunno how you can say no though... its a huge source of revenue.
MINIGIN! now posting in "limegreen"
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Bacilius
The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:37:00 -
[19]
论坛妓女..
喝采!
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Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:41:00 -
[20]
What region did we sell them this time?>
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CardboardSword42
Applied Eugenics
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:44:00 -
[21]
IAC get paid to rent regions they don't own and ensure that farmers don't NPCin their region. Sounds like win win for IAC and it also lowers the ammount of isk being sold for money because they would've NPC'd in 0.0 anyways and this way they're losing a couple billion isk a week.
The idea that CCP won't deal with isk farmers becuase they're in IAC is both ridiculously stupid and unfounded. If an account is found to have sold isk for real money, that account will be banned no matter what alliance or corporation that person is in. Having this corp in IAC has no bearing what so ever on their legitimacy in the eyes of a GM. In addition Tyrax pretty much agrees they're illegitimate but would rather make isk and not have them in his space than have to deal with them. Your arguments about why CCP are less likely do deal with farmers are totally warrantless.
I'm Ex-Biomass, that makes me cool But now I'm KOS and that makes me cooler 8)
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Aya
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:45:00 -
[22]
Set to red... dont let them think they will not get blown up in northern space because of blue standings.
Dont say they arent isk farmers because they are. Go play ffxi or Wow or any other game where you deal with the chinese RMT on a daily basis and cant kill them. You will be able to spot them in a legit crowd of players instantly.
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Ponderous Thunderstroke
Republic War Machine Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.29 12:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bacilius 论坛妓女..
喝采!
Oh, thank you waiter, I'll have the Hong Kong style chow mein, the ginger beef, and some wor won ton soup please.
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speedek
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.29 13:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: Ephemeron But buescrew accepts that, cause they know that this way they are much less likely to get banned. Nobody is fooling anyone here, except maybe CCP.
Show me proof that CCP banned ratting farmers and not isk selling characters.
CCP doesn't banned people just because they rat 23/7 and are asian even if it is 99% likely they are isk farmers. Unless they use macros, which ratters don't.
Yes they do.
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 13:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: speedek
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: Ephemeron But buescrew accepts that, cause they know that this way they are much less likely to get banned. Nobody is fooling anyone here, except maybe CCP.
Show me proof that CCP banned ratting farmers and not isk selling characters.
CCP doesn't banned people just because they rat 23/7 and are asian even if it is 99% likely they are isk farmers. Unless they use macros, which ratters don't.
Yes they do.
Proof or stfu because your BOB tag doesn't hold any credibility since T20.
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Kayleigh Lothian
Minmatar KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.29 13:45:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kayleigh Lothian on 29/07/2007 13:47:54 Edited by: Kayleigh Lothian on 29/07/2007 13:45:59
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: speedek Yes they do.
Proof or stfu because your BOB tag doesn't hold any credibility since T20.
Jesus these guys realy have you tight as a string, don't they? I think he say "Yes" to the fact that there are ratters using macros (and that they also get banned).
Asking for proof of banning is kinda stupid, since CCP will say that it is between CCP and the banee (is there such a word?).
But then again, I forget that "they" has gotten to you, this was offcoutse a bold plan from you to expose Zee Ebil Maztah Plan, wasn't it, since you wanted speedek to show the proof and in doing so also proof that BoB => Devs => ASCN => CCP => CIA => The Ailiens That Has Infiltrated Earth...and that they are the real isk sellers
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.29 13:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CardboardSword42
The idea that CCP won't deal with isk farmers becuase they're in IAC is both ridiculously stupid and unfounded. If an account is found to have sold isk for real money, that account will be banned no matter what alliance or corporation that person is in. Having this corp in IAC has no bearing what so ever on their legitimacy in the eyes of a GM. In addition Tyrax pretty much agrees they're illegitimate but would rather make isk and not have them in his space than have to deal with them. Your arguments about why CCP are less likely do deal with farmers are totally warrantless.
And if CCP does ban them. Wouldn't CCP also have to punish the legitimate players for knowingly aiding isk farmers? Wouldn't CCP, at the very least, have to take away all the ISK that IAC recieved from these farmers?
Does IAC hope it'll never come to that?
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kayleigh Lothian I think he say "Yes" to the fact that there are ratters using macros (and that they also get banned).
There are no ratting macros. Go ahead and even try to explain to me on how one would work.
Originally by: Kayleigh Lothian
Asking for proof of banning is kinda stupid, since CCP will say that it is between CCP and the banee (is there such a word?).
not when it comes to isk farmers, they are not privilieged with the privacy policy
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CardboardSword42
Applied Eugenics
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: CardboardSword42
The idea that CCP won't deal with isk farmers becuase they're in IAC is both ridiculously stupid and unfounded. If an account is found to have sold isk for real money, that account will be banned no matter what alliance or corporation that person is in. Having this corp in IAC has no bearing what so ever on their legitimacy in the eyes of a GM. In addition Tyrax pretty much agrees they're illegitimate but would rather make isk and not have them in his space than have to deal with them. Your arguments about why CCP are less likely do deal with farmers are totally warrantless.
And if CCP does ban them. Wouldn't CCP also have to punish the legitimate players for knowingly aiding isk farmers? Wouldn't CCP, at the very least, have to take away all the ISK that IAC recieved from these farmers?
Does IAC hope it'll never come to that?
It's not aiding the isk farmers at all really. They're paying to rent hostile space, all they're doing is getting screwed out of a billion isk a week and potential ratting space because IAC prevents them from ratting in friendly space. They aren't aiding isk farmers really, just exploiting them.
Taking ingame isk for the use of space is not a EULA violation, IAC would not have violated the EULA because they did not pay real money for the isk. W
I'm Ex-Biomass, that makes me cool But now I'm KOS and that makes me cooler 8)
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Wanux
Mercurialis Inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:23:00 -
[30]
All I know is that whenever I saw their name I called them "Blue's Clues".
Because I just love that adorable blue dog. <3 |
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Dr Qu
Caldari Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:37:00 -
[31]
Pretty simple, really. Where there is a market, there are sellers. People to buy isk? Then the farmers find a way to make isk to sell. No market, no sellers / farmers. Should be plain obvious to everyone, really.
Rather amusing that the farmers get all the blame. Nevermind the people that actually buy them isk to keep them in business.
Me, I dislike isk farmers with intent to sell. But I dislike the people who buy isk equally much. They are part of the problem, if not a bigger part, then the farmers are. Sadly enough, you never hear anyone reporting isk buyers, only the isk farmers.
:: "In hullintegrity we trust" :: |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:41:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dr Qu Pretty simple, really. Where there is a market, there are sellers. People to buy isk? Then the farmers find a way to make isk to sell. No market, no sellers / farmers. Should be plain obvious to everyone, really.
Rather amusing that the farmers get all the blame. Nevermind the people that actually buy them isk to keep them in business.
Me, I dislike isk farmers with intent to sell. But I dislike the people who buy isk equally much. They are part of the problem, if not a bigger part, then the farmers are. Sadly enough, you never hear anyone reporting isk buyers, only the isk farmers.
Thing is, it's kinda hard to know who is buying ISK. Noobs with lots of cash could have gotten it through GTCs, so even "ebayers" can actually be legitimate. I think most people dislike ISK buyers as much as ISK sellers, but pointing fingers isn't as easily done as doing so at character "falkhg" from "buescrew".
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Del369
Caldari Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:21:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Del369 on 29/07/2007 15:21:01
Originally by: Ephemeron Today I ran accross one of buescrew Raven farmers in Branch. A quick "show info" revealed that they are part of IAC alliance again.
In case some people are still unclear, buescrew is one of the most well known chinese isk farming corps. When you see the isk seller spam on public channels, you can be sure that at least some of that isk is coming from the buescrew farm sweatshops.
If you examine many other 23/7 Raven isk farmers, you'll notice that about 30% of them have been in buescrew corp at some point.
I know that IAC is just using the isk farmers to "steal" some of their money, basically making them pay rent for regions they don't even control. But the real issue is that actions of IAC give corps like buescrew in-game legitimacy. CCP is less likely to deal with them now.
If real alliances didn't tolerate chinese isk farmers for their personal gain, CCP would have easier time identifying and banning the isk farmers.
Yes it sems they were removed for not paying, turns out the reason they hadn't paid was because CCP had temp banned their leaders account, probably while they were investigating said "allegations" Can't for the life of me imagine why they would then UNBAN said account ??? unless the only thing they are actually guilty of is not being able to communicate in english very well.
Originally by: Saladin Edit: I never post disclaimers in any of my more contrversial posts because I think anyone who thinks I am speaking for anyone other than myself is a muppet anyways.
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MKeeper
Midnight Cartel
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Aya Set to red... dont let them think they will not get blown up in northern space because of blue standings.
Dont say they arent isk farmers because they are. Go play ffxi or Wow or any other game where you deal with the chinese RMT on a daily basis and cant kill them. You will be able to spot them in a legit crowd of players instantly.
Agreed, if IAC really are using them for their own means, that's one thing but as long as they do not expect the other friendly alliances to honour the blue standings to IAC when it's one of these Ravens.
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:32:00 -
[35]
1) Accept ratting corp into alliance 2) Sell them a region you don't own 3) ??? 4) Profit!
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Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:37:00 -
[36]
Racist vigilante wannabe GMs cry me a river please.
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:51:00 -
[37]
Assuming they *are* actually macro ratters, it's really no different from stealing from macro miners in empire, just less work involved.
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:59:00 -
[38]
Instead of whining you could unite and grief the farmers out of the game, i'm sure BOB would give + standings for a good cause
Now this thread is about why BOB won't give + standings to hunt farmers in their space. BOB is indirectly harboring farmers in their space
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Clean
Acceptable Losses
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Posted - 2007.07.29 16:17:00 -
[39]
Oh man i still dont get it why you guys belive this obvious and stupid "we sell them hostile space" crap
They move where ever systems are empty to take em for a ratting place. While beeing in IAC i saw a lot of em making thier money in the south of Wicked Creek and Detorid. So can IAC tell me since when Detorid (Goonspace) and Wicked Creek (TCF Terf) is hostile space ?!
You definetly provide isk sellers standings (far less risk) and docking rights (fitting storrage of mods and ammo) in coalition space.
Oh u get paid for it....ok np than its totaly fine right ?!
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Waxau
Amarr Liberty Rogues Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 16:21:00 -
[40]
Lol @ This thread
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Torshin
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
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Posted - 2007.07.29 16:29:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Racist vigilante wannabe GMs cry me a river please.
I find this a very interesting quotation. The fact that Tyrrax hasn't recoginized a complaint by a ally either states that the OP is a person of little power or that thorrk doesn't consider RZR an ally. -------------------------------------------
Backdoor Bandit - Unofficial leader of the new 'Post with your main or STFU' campaign. I'm Shinra and I'm the champion of Eve. |
Kirex
Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.29 16:33:00 -
[42]
If IAC kicks them out, they will still farm NPCs... So kicking them out will do nothing, might aswell make isk off them. :S
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Fire Hawk
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.29 16:57:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ephemeron Today I ran accross one of buescrew Raven farmers in Branch. A quick "show info" revealed that they are part of IAC alliance again.
In case some people are still unclear, buescrew is one of the most well known chinese isk farming corps. When you see the isk seller spam on public channels, you can be sure that at least some of that isk is coming from the buescrew farm sweatshops.
If you examine many other 23/7 Raven isk farmers, you'll notice that about 30% of them have been in buescrew corp at some point.
I know that IAC is just using the isk farmers to "steal" some of their money, basically making them pay rent for regions they don't even control. But the real issue is that actions of IAC give corps like buescrew in-game legitimacy. CCP is less likely to deal with them now.
If real alliances didn't tolerate chinese isk farmers for their personal gain, CCP would have easier time identifying and banning the isk farmers.
This corp is clearly ISK farmers who sell it for real money. A couple of their own members confirmed it.
The situation is obvious, but as it has been stated in another thread, IAC doesnt care who they rent space for, even it contribute to ruin the game for few billions.
It's kinda weak and I agree with OP.
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Fire Hawk
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.29 17:04:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kirex If IAC kicks them out, they will still farm NPCs... So kicking them out will do nothing, might aswell make isk off them. :S
You must be a police director or something like that IRL
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wdwm Katarr
Amarr 11th Hussars
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Posted - 2007.07.29 17:08:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Fire Hawk IAC doesnt care who they rent space for
Poor attempt at muck spreading, 1 for effort. Read, read and read again, IAC rent them space THAT DONT BELONG TO THEM. Personally I find it rather ammusing. Could be worse, IAC could been making Isk of ill gotten BP's.
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Map Screen
Flat Earth Society Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.07.29 17:12:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Fire Hawk This corp is clearly ISK farmers who sell it for real money. A couple of their own members confirmed it.
So can we assume that with your ironclad evidence we will see mass bannings for the buescrew members?
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Alias11
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.29 17:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Racist vigilante wannabe GMs cry me a river please.
I find this a very interesting quotation. The fact that Tyrrax hasn't recoginized a complaint by a ally either states that the OP is a person of little power or that thorrk doesn't consider RZR an ally.
I find this a very interesting quotation. The fact that gonad lost a region to twelve guys in recons either states that he is a person of little power or that he is terrible at eve
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Kamath
Gallente Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.29 17:43:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Kamath on 29/07/2007 17:44:01 if you dont want them in your region its pretty simple,
kill them harass them in game, by camping system where they are rating, and do this every day for a month or two, kill the giant at planet etcc ...
they will leave the area if u do that.
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.29 17:54:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kamath Edited by: Kamath on 29/07/2007 17:44:01 if you dont want them in your region its pretty simple,
kill them harass them in game, by camping system where they are rating, and do this every day for a month or two, kill the giant at planet etcc ...
they will leave the area if u do that.
I can agree with you, now post this in your alliance mail so the other BOB stfu and do something about those farmers! they are hurting our children!
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Koryvarn
Amarr Liberty Rogues Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 18:03:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kamath Edited by: Kamath on 29/07/2007 17:44:01 if you dont want them in your region its pretty simple,
Kill them harass them in game, by camping system where they are rating, and do this every day for a month or two, kill the giant at planet etcc ...
they will leave the area if u do that.
Or, you could invite them to your alliance, then tell them where they should rat, in return for a weekly payment of ISK. More time for pew pew'ing proper enemies, no farmers in your space and your enemies will have to deal with the cloaking or WC stabbed ravens / drakes.
IAC is evil and we eat babies.
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Mungad
Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 18:21:00 -
[51]
Man I wish my alliance leader was smart enough to think of this...oh wait. _____________________________
I farm isk. |
Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.29 20:51:00 -
[52]
Originally by: CardboardSword42 Also if you're really worried about alliances giving isk farmers legitimacy I suggest you start worrying about the Soul of Fountain alliance
SoF consists entirely of farmers and are red (or at least neutral) on every BoB-allied corp's overview. We kill them by the dozens when they can be goaded into engaging. Apparently, dampeners are startlingly effective against Ravens wearing WCS. Who knew?
I personally think it's a shame to put a bunch of people who you supposedly hate in your alliance, if for no other reason than it really makes it hard to set standings towards you in a way that's consistent with this corp's standing within your alliance. But IAC can do as they see fit.
--P
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. |
Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 21:00:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ephemeron Today I ran accross one of buescrew Raven farmers in Branch. A quick "show info" revealed that they are part of IAC alliance again.
In case some people are still unclear, buescrew is one of the most well known chinese isk farming corps. When you see the isk seller spam on public channels, you can be sure that at least some of that isk is coming from the buescrew farm sweatshops.
If you examine many other 23/7 Raven isk farmers, you'll notice that about 30% of them have been in buescrew corp at some point.
I know that IAC is just using the isk farmers to "steal" some of their money, basically making them pay rent for regions they don't even control. But the real issue is that actions of IAC give corps like buescrew in-game legitimacy. CCP is less likely to deal with them now.
If real alliances didn't tolerate chinese isk farmers for their personal gain, CCP would have easier time identifying and banning the isk farmers.
LOL WUT
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.07.29 22:12:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Ephemeron Today I ran accross one of buescrew Raven farmers in Branch. A quick "show info" revealed that they are part of IAC alliance again.
In case some people are still unclear, buescrew is one of the most well known chinese isk farming corps. When you see the isk seller spam on public channels, you can be sure that at least some of that isk is coming from the buescrew farm sweatshops.
If you examine many other 23/7 Raven isk farmers, you'll notice that about 30% of them have been in buescrew corp at some point.
I know that IAC is just using the isk farmers to "steal" some of their money, basically making them pay rent for regions they don't even control. But the real issue is that actions of IAC give corps like buescrew in-game legitimacy. CCP is less likely to deal with them now.
If real alliances didn't tolerate chinese isk farmers for their personal gain, CCP would have easier time identifying and banning the isk farmers.
LOL WUT
Sok, didn't you use to hunt ISK farmers? How can you stand by this?
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 22:13:00 -
[55]
these are not macroers
and id rather not give any more incentive to be kicked out of iac, been there done that, got the t shirt, sent apologies
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.07.29 22:20:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Sokratesz these are not macroers
I thought the problem was that they were ISK sellers, not macroers. Was I wrong?
Originally by: Sokratesz and id rather not give any more incentive to be kicked out of iac, been there done that, got the t shirt, sent apologies
This kinda talk makes me sad.
If it's any consolation, know that we are having a bloody good time making macroratters/ISK seller's life miserable (hello there, Kalike's Knight Regiment!), though I must admit their broken English local talk is a hoot.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.29 22:24:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 29/07/2007 22:25:00
a) If they sell isk ccp needs to ban them. theyve probably got their ways to work around it and the guys working the sweatshops doing the ratting probably know squat about that. no use in 'taking them down' or w/e theyre just poor souls making a living. Macroers are fun to kill because they fail to even pay attention to their pcs. i could care less about their motives
b) not open for discussion, mail me ingame if you insist
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.07.29 22:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 29/07/2007 22:25:00
a) If they sell isk ccp needs to ban them. theyve probably got their ways to work around it and the guys working the sweatshops doing the ratting probably know squat about that. no use in 'taking them down' or w/e theyre just poor souls making a living. Macroers are fun to kill because they fail to even pay attention to their pcs. i could care less about their motives
K
Originally by: Sokratesz b) not open for discussion, mail me ingame if you insist
K, will do.
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fugazii
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2007.07.29 23:29:00 -
[59]
Honestly what proof do you have they sell isk? If they did sell isk, and they all sat in a well known corp that only does so dont you think ccp would have banned them? CCP doesnt care if your in an alliance or not if your found to be selling isk youll be banned, and since theyre so well known they have undoubtedly been reported many times...which means they have been looked into and found to be not breaking any rules.
You throw out these assumptions, yet all facts point to you being wrong.
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Sooshie
Gallente The 5 Amigo's LLC. NxT LeveL
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Posted - 2007.07.30 01:46:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Mr Broker There are still plenty of other well known isk farmer corps without an alliance, and they are still kicking strong.
You are a moron. Shutup while you still can.
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GomezChou
Gallente Nexus Analytics Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 03:42:00 -
[61]
The funny part about all of this is that, while beusrew rat nearly as much as Jim Lovell (go baby go!), they also participate on an alliance level.
We had a pos shooty op a bit back, and I'll be damned if 15 torp ravens didn't show up, flying the beusrew flag. They warped in as a group, were supporting each others tanks, and were more or less right on time. OUr conventional fleet didn't arrive for another 10-20 minutes.
So yeah, they can stay.
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Akelorian
Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.07.30 03:52:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Racist vigilante wannabe GMs cry me a river please.
lol Tyrrax, the greatest supporter of ISK farmers. Bet that 1bil a week is great to have in your wallet eh?
- Ake Out
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Akelorian
Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.07.30 03:59:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Sokratesz these are not macroers
and id rather not give any more incentive to be kicked out of iac, been there done that, got the t shirt, sent apologies
Wish I had that convo logged when I was in UMCON, Tyrrax knows they are farmers and he does charge them isk, now tell me who in your alliance actually see's this isk other than him?
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 04:11:00 -
[64]
If CCP has already conducted investigation of buescrew (as 1 posted suggested), then could they release results of that investigation?
If there is evidence that buescrew are not macro-rattings, not sweatshop isk farmers, and not involved in isk sales, then I'll change my attitude toward them. I'm open minded. It's just that right now, all the circumstantial evidence points against them.
It's very hard to prove isk sales, but it's easy to examine their online farming time. If 1 char is farming for 18+ hours strait, you know that it's either a macro or shared account. Both cases are EULA violations. Can CCP say how many hours they farm?
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GomezChou
Gallente Nexus Analytics Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 05:23:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Ephemeron If CCP has already conducted investigation of buescrew (as 1 posted suggested), then could they release results of that investigation?
If there is evidence that buescrew are not macro-rattings, not sweatshop isk farmers, and not involved in isk sales, then I'll change my attitude toward them. I'm open minded. It's just that right now, all the circumstantial evidence points against them.
It's very hard to prove isk sales, but it's easy to examine their online farming time. If 1 char is farming for 18+ hours strait, you know that it's either a macro or shared account. Both cases are EULA violations. Can CCP say how many hours they farm?
Methamphetamine addiction is not a EULA violation, to my knowledge. :P
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papaPadla
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.30 05:58:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Ephemeron ...If 1 char is farming for 18+ hours strait, you know that it's either a macro or shared account. Both cases are EULA violations.
if we try splitting the issue... they can have an account on for like 23/7... without macroing and without sharing... and in general is hard to get proof about these issues...
this discution however is not about this... is about the fact that iac is giving a blue tag to a corp that disturbs some of theyr allies... and if we consider the coalition as a whole... being in iac gives one a blue tag for a good portion of the server... and in fact that is what iac is selling...
not "other ppl regions" not protection or anything... they are simply selling the tag... meaning limited protection in iac+allies space, safe passage around there... docking rights in areas where they wouldnt normally haveit.
Not that i find anything wrong with that... but let's call it what it is -------------------------------------
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Mr Krosis
The humble Crew Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 07:35:00 -
[67]
I still don't fully understand why people have a problem with IAC regarding this. In IAC / Not In IAC, they're still in game, and they're still ratting.
As far as I know, they're not allowed to rat in our space. I've been told if they come and try to rat where I am that I'm free to shoot them down. Our allies know we don't have a problem if they shoot them. Hell look at -A- killboard stats for buesrew, they kill them in Catch and abroad all the time.
I have never seen a single indication that any of them use macros. They do respond to you if you see them in local and they certainly don't like being shot at. The horribly mutilated english is a little amusing. I saw one in local one time and asked him if he ever got bored ratting all day, he said "yes". There are real people on the other side of that keyboard.
Do they sell ISK for real life money? I've no idea. If they do, it's not because they're in IAC. Would I rather they were not in IAC? Probably, but I don't care too much one way or another. It was amusing at first, now it's kind of old. As long as they don't rat in my space or disrupt my gameplay, it's kind of hard to care too much.
I know for some people, it really gets under your skin, but if you all have proof that they are doing something against the EULA, submit it to CCP. If you have chatlogs of them admiting that they sell the ISK out of game, don't tell us, submit it to CCP. If you have no proof and you just plain don't like them, then go hunt them. There is nothing IAC can do to remove them from the game, CCP is the only one that can help you there.
-- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
UGWidowmaker
Caldari The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.07.30 07:43:00 -
[68]
who cares. OMFG
I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
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Linavin
Mercurialis Inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 08:11:00 -
[69]
If you've got a problem with them, just blast em. We wont take it as an insult, or diplomatic problem, we'll probably just laugh about it.
I see no reason why CCP would for some reason start turning a blind eye to potential EULA breaching activity simply because it happens in a "big alliance." If anything it makes such activities easier to see. CCP has had a fine track record of doling out Bans for those who breach the EULA, without any credance to alliance affiliation. I trust CCP is still dealing with ISK buying and selling in a swift and decise manner as they always have. ---
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.30 08:39:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Tamoko on 30/07/2007 08:40:22
Originally by: Ephemeron If CCP has already conducted investigation of buescrew (as 1 posted suggested), then could they release results of that investigation?
If there is evidence that buescrew are not macro-rattings, not sweatshop isk farmers, and not involved in isk sales, then I'll change my attitude toward them. I'm open minded. It's just that right now, all the circumstantial evidence points against them.
It's very hard to prove isk sales, but it's easy to examine their online farming time. If 1 char is farming for 18+ hours strait, you know that it's either a macro or shared account. Both cases are EULA violations. Can CCP say how many hours they farm?
First and most importantly, I'm not racist. But I can put two and two together. Yes, they rat almost twenty-four hours a day. Almost every one I've run into has given me a colloquial "good day" in Chinese when I told them 你好o/, in local, or in lieu of that, asked me to not kill them . I'll be damned if they aren't selling isk.
-edit-
The poster above me is the epic win. If they bother you so much, then kill them. IAC wont mind - probably even if you're blue to them. You stand to lose nothing to our oriental farmer friends, or IAC at large.
Khanid Mk-II: http://i13.tinypic.com/688zvjk.jpg http://i11.tinypic.com/5ycekb8.jpg |
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 09:23:00 -
[71]
Contrary to the belief of many people in this thread, Farming is not a eula violation, and as said before, if they had been found guilty of ISK selling why the hell haven't they been banned?
Bandwagon's full, please catch another.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 09:39:00 -
[72]
I take offense at IAC because they are blue to my alliance. I won't hide the fact that I hate isk farmers. I don't like people who collaborate with isk farmers in any way.
IAC says it's ok to shoot them even tho they are blue. I see such policy as abuse of EVE political system. Either you are all hostile, or you are all friends. I don't want any of that "we all look like friends but lets pretend those friends are not friends at all, you can kill them, lets laugh at them. And by the way we know they are actually scum bags but we'll pretend to be their friend anyways."
What kind of bull**** is that?
Bottom line is, I consider behavior of IAC leadership unacceptable and I don't want to have such allies. I can tolerate it by my alliance leadership orders, but I won't hide that I don't like this one bit.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 09:41:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Sokratesz Contrary to the belief of many people in this thread, Farming is not a eula violation, and as said before, if they had been found guilty of ISK selling why the hell haven't they been banned?
Bandwagon's full, please catch another.
If IAC actually defended buescrew corp all the way, then I could respect you. But your leaders openly admit they buescrew are bad isk farmers, openly laugh when their allies kill their own members, openly admit to scamming their corp for isk by renting them far away regions.
I can't respect you
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.30 09:57:00 -
[74]
IAC is completely riddled with macro/sweatshop ISK farming corps. You would struggle to find a system in Catch where they have not strategically placed a 24-7 cloaking/logging Raven.
Who knows why they let them in. Poor management? They don't care? Greed? Maybe all of these things. Whatever - its poor form and IAC would do well to eject such corps from their alliance.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.07.30 10:11:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ephemeron IAC says it's ok to shoot them even tho they are blue. I see such policy as abuse of EVE political system. Either you are all hostile, or you are all friends. I don't want any of that "we all look like friends but lets pretend those friends are not friends at all, you can kill them, lets laugh at them. And by the way we know they are actually scum bags but we'll pretend to be their friend anyways."
What kind of bull**** is that?
Bottom line is, I consider behavior of IAC leadership unacceptable and I don't want to have such allies. I can tolerate it by my alliance leadership orders, but I won't hide that I don't like this one bit.
I can't respect you
You sure seems to think your opinion matters to IAC or anyone else
Just who are you?
Stop embarassing Razor. Also, you're only allies of opportunity, when the war's over, you won't be allies. Seems you don't even know that, also considering you are living and fighting on the opposite sides of the galaxy, it shouldn't be a problem, except you decided to make it a problem.
Well, we don't care about your feelings and IAC doesn't need your respect
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Ponderous Thunderstroke
Republic War Machine Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.30 10:12:00 -
[76]
What's wrong Butter, jealous that IAC got the bright idea of running a protection racket on them first?
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 10:14:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Butter Dog IAC is completely riddled with macro/sweatshop ISK farming corps. You would struggle to find a system in Catch where they have not strategically placed a 24-7 cloaking/logging Raven.
Who knows why they let them in. Poor management? They don't care? Greed? Maybe all of these things. Whatever - its poor form and IAC would do well to eject such corps from their alliance.
they see me trollin', they hatin'
GTFO
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.30 10:49:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke What's wrong Butter, jealous that IAC got the bright idea of running a protection racket on them first?
To be honest, it makes me a little sad. There are some good corps and personalities in IAC. They are a fun alliance, and I quite like most of them.
But legitimising the actions of ISK farmers is just a step too far, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. EVE has enough faults without ISK farmers providing further imbalance to the game, and being given a 'safe haven' in which to do so.
There is also the moral and ethical question of those who are 'paid' to do this and their well-documented conditions of employment. They don't call them 'sweatshops' for nothing. Laughing about it or making stupid comments about 'protection rackets' makes those involved look niave at best, and collaborators in human rights abuses at worst.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 11:17:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 30/07/2007 11:17:53
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke What's wrong Butter, jealous that IAC got the bright idea of running a protection racket on them first?
To be honest, it makes me a little sad. There are some good corps and personalities in IAC. They are a fun alliance, and I quite like most of them.
But legitimising the actions of ISK farmers is just a step too far, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. EVE has enough faults without ISK farmers providing further imbalance to the game, and being given a 'safe haven' in which to do so.
There is also the moral and ethical question of those who are 'paid' to do this and their well-documented conditions of employment. They don't call them 'sweatshops' for nothing. Laughing about it or making stupid comments about 'protection rackets' makes those involved look niave at best, and collaborators in human rights abuses at worst.
Take of your yellow mask and stop trying to act cool. There's some flaws in your irrevocable logic.
1) there's no need to legitimize isk farmers, for they are legitimate 2) how do we do that anyway, when even tyraxx acknowledges that they are farming 3) i dont care about your mouth 4) safe haven in hostile territory? 5) i dont know any sweatshop workers, do you?, and if i did, and could do anything about their situation, i would, but unfortunatly i dont, so i cant 6) moral / ethical implications? this is the intarwebs!
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.30 11:27:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 30/07/2007 11:17:53
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke What's wrong Butter, jealous that IAC got the bright idea of running a protection racket on them first?
To be honest, it makes me a little sad. There are some good corps and personalities in IAC. They are a fun alliance, and I quite like most of them.
But legitimising the actions of ISK farmers is just a step too far, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. EVE has enough faults without ISK farmers providing further imbalance to the game, and being given a 'safe haven' in which to do so.
There is also the moral and ethical question of those who are 'paid' to do this and their well-documented conditions of employment. They don't call them 'sweatshops' for nothing. Laughing about it or making stupid comments about 'protection rackets' makes those involved look niave at best, and collaborators in human rights abuses at worst.
Take of your yellow mask and stop trying to act cool. There's some flaws in your irrevocable logic.
1) there's no need to legitimize isk farmers, for they are legitimate 2) how do we do that anyway, when even tyraxx acknowledges that they are farming 3) i dont care about your mouth 4) safe haven in hostile territory? 5) i dont know any sweatshop workers, do you?, and if i did, and could do anything about their situation, i would, but unfortunatly i dont, so i cant 6) moral / ethical implications? this is the intarwebs!
Most of your points are lacking in intelligence and substance, and not worthy of a response. But let me address a few which are obviously flawed;
4) I was under the impression you claimed Catch, which is where most of them seem to operate. You also have a large number of 'blues' from which farmers are effectively shielded.
5) Under what terms and conditions of employment do you think ISK farmers are engaged in the developing world? Their rates of pay, terms of employment, and working hours are completely out of line with what any reasonable person would call 'acceptable'. This is well documented, do a little research.
6) Clearly the moral and ethical implications come from the way in which ISK farmers are employed. Thats very much a 'real life' consideration, though no doubt it serves you well to trivialise the issue. Unfortunately for you, wishing these issues away does not work.
Now, you can either respond intelligently to my points, or I'd recommend you don't bother - you've already made yourself look rather foolish so be mindful of how low you go.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 11:41:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Now, you can either respond intelligently to my points, or I'd recommend you don't bother - you've already made yourself look rather foolish so be mindful of how low you go.
Fortunatly, 'looking intelligent' has never been my goal on virtual message boards. Good that you mention it, i've been practicing my Limbo Dancing skills lately but im afraid it will take at least two more trolls like you to push me any lower.
/sarcasm
i'll get back to washing my socks now
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Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.07.30 11:46:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CardboardSword42 IAC get paid to rent regions they don't own and ensure that farmers don't NPCin their region. Sounds like win win for IAC and it also lowers the ammount of isk being sold for money because they would've NPC'd in 0.0 anyways and this way they're losing a couple billion isk a week.
The idea that CCP won't deal with isk farmers becuase they're in IAC is both ridiculously stupid and unfounded. If an account is found to have sold isk for real money, that account will be banned no matter what alliance or corporation that person is in. Having this corp in IAC has no bearing what so ever on their legitimacy in the eyes of a GM. In addition Tyrax pretty much agrees they're illegitimate but would rather make isk and not have them in his space than have to deal with them. Your arguments about why CCP are less likely do deal with farmers are totally warrantless.
Taking isk from isk farmers is tantamount to farming isk yourself.
IAC should remove this relationship at once.
Caveat: Of course, if they are farmers that is, but the general concensus on here seems to be that they are.
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Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.07.30 11:55:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Butter Dog
Now, you can either respond intelligently to my points, or I'd recommend you don't bother - you've already made yourself look rather foolish so be mindful of how low you go.
Fortunatly, 'looking intelligent' has never been my goal on virtual message boards. Good that you mention it, i've been practicing my Limbo Dancing skills lately but im afraid it will take at least two more trolls like you to push me any lower.
/sarcasm
i'll get back to washing my socks now
I'll help butter out here. Sokratesz, mate, pal, shut up. Your argument is pathetic and I am embarrassed for you.
IAC would do well to boot you out before the farmers.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 12:03:00 -
[84]
Edited by: cal nereus on 30/07/2007 12:04:09 Edited by: cal nereus on 30/07/2007 12:03:44 Taxing tobacco sales is tantamount to selling drugs to children! You should be ashamed, [insert just about any country here]. ---
Grismar.net |
Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 12:06:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Mattduk
I'll help butter out here. Sokratesz, mate, pal, shut up. Your argument is pathetic and I am embarrassed for you.
IAC would do well to boot you out before the farmers.
I had a bus full of people that cared about your opinion on this matter, but i drove it off a cliff.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 12:09:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 30/07/2007 12:14:59
Besides, mattduk, i have over 50 confirmed suicide kills of farmer/macro mackinaws and haulers. Might keep that in mind.
I've also spoken to many farmers and even alleged ISK sellers in-game and even on MSN, so i think my vision on the whole matter is a little less biased than yours.
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.30 12:57:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Butter Dog
Now, you can either respond intelligently to my points, or I'd recommend you don't bother - you've already made yourself look rather foolish so be mindful of how low you go.
Fortunatly, 'looking intelligent' has never been my goal on virtual message boards. Good that you mention it, i've been practicing my Limbo Dancing skills lately but im afraid it will take at least two more trolls like you to push me any lower.
/sarcasm
i'll get back to washing my socks now
You're an embarressment to your alliance. And thats really saying something.
But yes, well done for side-stepping all of my perfectly valid points. Makes you look really credible.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.30 12:59:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Mattduk
I'll help butter out here. Sokratesz, mate, pal, shut up. Your argument is pathetic and I am embarrassed for you.
IAC would do well to boot you out before the farmers.
I had a bus full of people that cared about your opinion on this matter, but i drove it off a cliff.
You accuse others of trolling, then make comments like this. Remarkable.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 12:59:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 30/07/2007 13:03:36 Edited by: Sokratesz on 30/07/2007 13:02:29
Most of your 'valid points' were disproven in this or one of the many iac-farmer related threadslong ago, so please, dont go there.
Originally by: Butter Dog
You accuse others of trolling, then make comments like this. Remarkable.
Neither he nor his corp nor any of its members seem to have anything to do with me, my corp, IAC, farming or ISK selling. Yet still he thinks he can jump in, act cool with a personal attakc and get taken seriously while at it?
On a different note, as you may have gathered from my posts i do not take this matter all too seriously, and it'd be a shame if you did.
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:03:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 30/07/2007 13:03:40
Originally by: Sokratesz Most of your 'valid points' were disproven in this or one of the many iac-farmer related threadslong ago, so please, dont go there.
Please point me to a single one of the points I made which you have 'disproved'. All I see is you making personal attacks and trolling.
So go ahead, refer to the post I made above (the one where you ignored the points I made) and respond intelligently to it.
I'm happy to engage you in a discussion. But to be honest, I suspect you lack the intellectual rigour to sustain such a conversation. However, you're welcome to prove me wrong.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Barthezz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:08:00 -
[91]
Sok's at it again I see
/me waves to sok
Tbh I dont see why people care, first if they where isk-sellers they would be banned. Second, farming isnt a crime, if it was I'd be banned ages ago.
Perhaps their just misunderstood Chinese people that want a Titan and need isk !
And these isk farmers have been on PVP ops, and in force as well (last time I saw them it was I think 8-10 ravens, and couple of other ships). Perhaps their just bob spies/alts and its how bob gets their isk?
Anyways, its all one big witch hunt, if it doesnt speak english and rats in a raven (when your online), then obviously their online 23/7 and live in china, and farm isk for a living.
Even if that was all true, guys think of the Chinese children that now have a job farming isk who would otherwise starve to death because they cant pay for food !
(and now I've used [ : lol : ] enough )
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:08:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Butter Dog
I'm happy to engage you in a discussion. But to be honest, I suspect you lack the intellectual rigour to sustain such a conversation. However, you're welcome to prove me wrong. [/yellow]
Yeah i feel really intimidated now...ooooooohhh
try harder on the personal attacks. my mum died of cancer last year, that some material for consideration?
Quote: 4) I was under the impression you claimed Catch, which is where most of them seem to operate. You also have a large number of 'blues' from which farmers are effectively shielded.
5) Under what terms and conditions of employment do you think ISK farmers are engaged in the developing world? Their rates of pay, terms of employment, and working hours are completely out of line with what any reasonable person would call 'acceptable'. This is well documented, do a little research.
6) Clearly the moral and ethical implications come from the way in which ISK farmers are employed. Thats very much a 'real life' consideration, though no doubt it serves you well to trivialise the issue. Unfortunately for you, wishing these issues away does not work.
Now, you can either respond intelligently to my points, or I'd recommend you don't bother - you've already made yourself look rather foolish so be mindful of how low you go.
4) they paid us to rat in delve, which is hardly our space. they use catch as a base of ops of some kind, ive never seen them rat around there, go ask them if you really want to know..
5) As i said. i do not know however i can hardly make any difference to them by making a stand on the forums here
6) you give me an adress to send those poor sods some cash, ill happily comply. acting snobby about something like that does not get you any credit or free internets. i am not denying the problem im merely stating that we can hardly change it.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:09:00 -
[93]
hey barth, sup, im having a great time here
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:11:00 -
[94]
Butter Dog is just mad that he can't protect the ISK farmers flying under the veil of ISS neutrality anymore.
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Clean
Acceptable Losses
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:20:00 -
[95]
IAC is as much infested by those isk sellers as KOS is and just like KOS they dont give a **** cuz money comes into the wallet.
Some1 had to pay KIA for not beeing able to kick Outbreak outa Curse right ?
Anyway IAC just droped in honor terms as low as KOS and all this defending of isk famers/sellers no matter if they make thier money in Delive, Cache or Detorid no matter if they macro or account share doesnt make IAC looks any better imho
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:22:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Clean IAC is as much infested by those isk sellers as KOS is and just like KOS they dont give a **** cuz money comes into the wallet.
Some1 had to pay KIA for not beeing able to kick Outbreak outa Curse right ?
Anyway IAC just droped in honor terms as low as KOS and all this defending of isk famers/sellers no matter if they make thier money in Delive, Cache or Detorid no matter if they macro or account share doesnt make IAC looks any better imho
nice sig dude
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Map Screen
Flat Earth Society Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:25:00 -
[97]
As has been stated many times before but which is constantly ignored by the idiots that keep posting about buescew, farming isk is not illegal, most people farm for isk in eve. SELLING ISK IS ILLEGAL, so if you have solid evidence that they are selling isk report it (looking at the bob guy with the signed confession), if not just stfu about foreign people playing eve.
As for the OP I'm sure Ephemeron is just saddened that his own extensive farming is being hampered by someone else.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:44:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Map Screen As for the OP I'm sure Ephemeron is just saddened that his own extensive farming is being hampered by someone else.
I don't farm like they do. I don't always run when under attack. I certainly won't run and cloak simply cause someone entered local.
All the isk I make goes either to help my alliance or pimp my PvP ships. BoB and many of my other enemies can testify that the isk I make gets returned to community thru PvP.
How do all those farmers spend the isk? Has anyone seen them buy anything at all? They have to be making at least 2 billion a day. Where all that isk goes? They don't buy POS stuff, they don't pimp their ships, they only pay a small fraction to their "alliance".
They been farming for months, if not years. They gotta have over 300 billion by now since they save so much.
If CCP can present evidence that their isk is being spent on game stuff for valid game reasons, then I'll drop my case.
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Taurequis
Waylander 01
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:50:00 -
[99]
Hi,
Just had to add the passing comment before stepping back to watch this smear fest.
If people thing this corp is isk selling, REPORT THEM WITH EVIDENCE!
If CCP have investigated once, tracking isk from the various members accounts etc and nothing has come of it, THEN SURELY THIS SAYS SOMETHING!!
As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space?
Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me.
Step back, think about what evidence is available and then send a petition if you want. Sprouting off about this and that on the forums doesnt really get anyone anywhere.
Best Regards,
Taur
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:03:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 14:11:03
Originally by: Taurequis As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space?
Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me. Taur
You missed the point where IAC admits to decieving and abusing that corp even tho it is in their alliance.
Even if buescrew is legit, surely you can't defend IAC for choosing to use such foul tactics? abusing their own member corp while it's too dumb to realize what's going on (probably not dumb, just clueless about the game cause all they care for is isk farming)
Any real corp would quickly figure out what is happening and realize that they don't need IAC.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:04:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Taurequis Hi,
Just had to add the passing comment before stepping back to watch this smear fest.
If people thing this corp is isk selling, REPORT THEM WITH EVIDENCE!
If CCP have investigated once, tracking isk from the various members accounts etc and nothing has come of it, THEN SURELY THIS SAYS SOMETHING!!
As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space?
Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me.
Step back, think about what evidence is available and then send a petition if you want. Sprouting off about this and that on the forums doesnt really get anyone anywhere.
Best Regards,
Taur
i hope butter dog has a load of smack flame and troll prepared cause after such a sensible post the force needs to be brought to balance again!
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Saladin
Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:09:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Saladin on 30/07/2007 14:10:11 I have to say as much as I dislike isk farming, I really can't say I agree with all the people who are gung ho against sweatshop employees. They probably have it hard enough without everyone in EvE bullying them. You are never going to fix this problem on the supply side. There is a heavy demand for cash-to-isk transfers and as long as there is demand there will be people in some country who are desperate enough to subjugate themselves in this way. Maybe its better than working in a Burmese coal mine or prostituting themselves to tourists.
I've played EvE for over 4 years now, and in that time I have seen a number of people I have suspected of buying isk. They either flaunt it in TS, or they simply keep coming up with new ships and faction gear without any visible source of income, and then lose it all in the most cavalier manner. Would people report a suspected buyer to CCP if he was a wingman or corp-mate? Perhaps it is easier to just sit back and bully the isk farmers since you don't know them.
As for IAC, they can do as they wish. Some people can contribute to an alliance by pvp, others by isk. But taking their money and letting them get shot at by your allies, as though they were second class citizens? |
Barthezz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:16:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Ephemeron How do all those farmers spend the isk? Has anyone seen them buy anything at all? They have to be making at least 2 billion a day. Where all that isk goes? They don't buy POS stuff, they don't pimp their ships, they only pay a small fraction to their "alliance".
What do the carebear miners / mission runners in empire spend their isk on? They -must- sell their isk too I guess!
And their online more then you, so they must be 23/7 players? Do you have them in your address book to check if they -do- actually play that long?
No one says they arent isk hogs, but no one has proven that they sell isk. If anything, CCP has investigated them and they havent been banned so I'd assume their actually not isk sellers.
Perhaps in a month or 2-4 we will suddenly see buesrew in 20 motherships, dang IAC will be happy that they have them in the alliance
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:16:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 30/07/2007 14:10:11 I have to say as much as I dislike isk farming, I really can't say I agree with all the people who are gung ho against sweatshop employees. They probably have it hard enough without everyone in EvE bullying them. You are never going to fix this problem on the supply side. There is a heavy demand for cash-to-isk transfers and as long as there is demand there will be people in some country who are desperate enough to subjugate themselves in this way. Maybe its better than working in a Burmese coal mine or prostituting themselves to tourists.
I've played EvE for over 4 years now, and in that time I have seen a number of people I have suspected of buying isk. They either flaunt it in TS, or they simply keep coming up with new ships and faction gear without any visible source of income, and then lose it all in the most cavalier manner. Would people report a suspected buyer to CCP if he was a wingman or corp-mate? Perhaps it is easier to just sit back and bully the isk farmers since you don't know them.
As for IAC, they can do as they wish.
I agree. ---
Grismar.net |
Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:20:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 14:21:12
Originally by: Barthezz Perhaps in a month or 2-4 we will suddenly see buesrew in 20 motherships, dang IAC will be happy that they have them in the alliance
Yea dream on. If there are real gamers behind the Ravens, they would turn those motherships on you for treating them like **** while pretending to be friends.
At least I don't pretend to be their friend.
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Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:44:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 30/07/2007 13:03:36 Edited by: Sokratesz on 30/07/2007 13:02:29
Neither he nor his corp nor any of its members seem to have anything to do with me, my corp, IAC, farming or ISK selling.
You sure about that?
Quite the claim with zero research.
You never know.
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:47:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Sokratesz
4) they paid us to rat in delve, which is hardly our space. they use catch as a base of ops of some kind, ive never seen them rat around there, go ask them if you really want to know..
5) As i said. i do not know however i can hardly make any difference to them by making a stand on the forums here
6) you give me an adress to send those poor sods some cash, ill happily comply. acting snobby about something like that does not get you any credit or free internets. i am not denying the problem im merely stating that we can hardly change it.
4) IAC ISK farmers operate throughout Catch. In fact its rare to enter a system in Catch which is worth ratting in, and not find a 24-7 CloakLogRaven flying under the IAC banner.
5) Ignorance is no excuse. You can't change anything on the forum but you can boot them from your alliance and stop making exuses.
6) So you acknowedge RL human rights abuses in ISK farming 'sweatshops', and then you say 'well we cannot do anything to change it'. Wrong. For a start, you can cut the crap, drop the excuses, and kick these corps from your alliance.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:51:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Yeah i feel really intimidated now...ooooooohhh
try harder on the personal attacks. my mum died of cancer last year, that some material for consideration?
What the hell is wrong with you, dude? Show some respect, for god's sake, that's your mother you are talking about.
Jesus.
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Goktar illiat
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:04:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 30/07/2007 14:10:11 I have to say as much as I dislike isk farming, I really can't say I agree with all the people who are gung ho against sweatshop employees. They probably have it hard enough without everyone in EvE bullying them.
Maybe its better than working in a Burmese coal mine or prostituting themselves to tourists.
Is that why MC have positive standings to this "suspected" farmer corp and have granted them docking rights in the north aswell ? civrea Corp.
So its also "an act of kindness" to pay for stuff made by kids ?
Its sad that so many are defending isk farmers..
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Proxay
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:26:00 -
[110]
[15:17:05] Tyrrax Thorrk > <b>I'M BOOTING BUESCREW</b>
[15:17:09] Tyrrax Thorrk > <b>MY E-HONOR DEMANDS IT</b>
Fallen Angel's Recruitment |
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Solid Wilko
Minmatar InNova Tech Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:27:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Solid Wilko on 30/07/2007 15:29:24 I couldn't be asked to read through all the personal attacks and eye hurting yellow text someone felt the need to post in but can someone answer these questions with a yes or no.
1) Do they sell isk for cash? 2) I farmed a triple Angel Spawn for 3 hours while semi-AFK reading Harry Potter. Can I be banned for farming? 3) If they are "farming" and CCP has investigated them and not banned them AND they show up on Alliance ops - should anyone care?
Please reply with simple yes or no's so I dont have to sift through a mountain of replys and possibly more eye hurting yellow text
Edit: Hahahaha I just noticed who the original poster was! Someone who used to be logged on 16 hours a day ratting in JWJ farming spawns with his domi and stiletto/black bird alt! Oh this is rich! Pot meet kettle!
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Teron D'Amun
The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:33:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Taurequis If people thing this corp is isk selling, REPORT THEM WITH EVIDENCE!
If CCP have investigated once, tracking isk from the various members accounts etc and nothing has come of it, THEN SURELY THIS SAYS SOMETHING!!
there is a faster way to get them banned than that have them post meatspin links repeatedly in the help channel as requirement to join your corp/alliance
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Proxay
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:34:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Teron D'Amun
Originally by: Taurequis If people thing this corp is isk selling, REPORT THEM WITH EVIDENCE!
If CCP have investigated once, tracking isk from the various members accounts etc and nothing has come of it, THEN SURELY THIS SAYS SOMETHING!!
there is a faster way to get them banned than that have them post meatspin links repeatedly in the help channel as requirement to join your corp/alliance
Winner.
Fallen Angel's Recruitment |
GO MaZ
Spartan Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:35:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Butter Dog
blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap
Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack).
Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop.
PROVE IT OR **** OFF
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:36:00 -
[115]
Major lulz to be found in this thread.
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Solid Wilko
Minmatar InNova Tech Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:38:00 -
[116]
Edit: Hahahaha I just noticed who the original poster was! Someone who used to be logged on 16 hours a day ratting in JWJ farming spawns with his domi and stiletto/black bird alt! Oh this is rich! Pot meet kettle! Ban him hes an isk farmer!
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GO MaZ
Spartan Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:41:00 -
[117]
I'd be much more worried about Jim Lovell being an ISK farmer than buesrew tbh - KICK HIM IAC!
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:47:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Solid Wilko Edit: Hahahaha I just noticed who the original poster was! Someone who used to be logged on 16 hours a day ratting in JWJ farming spawns with his domi and stiletto/black bird alt! Oh this is rich! Pot meet kettle! Ban him hes an isk farmer!
nah ah
I do often use tactic of staying cloaked AFK to scare the local farmers. You should remember that JWJ was hostile space to me. I was there to hurt people, as well as farm Don't deny that I haven't killed you
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Solid Wilko
Minmatar InNova Tech Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:16:00 -
[119]
Can't deny you've killed me/I've killed you but how is you sitting there cloaked in hostile space and ratting when its clear for isk too much different then what you are claiming these others are doing(Assuming they arent selling isk for cash)?
Ahhh good times fighting your domi!
reposted with my main cuz I'm a nub
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:17:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Butter Dog
blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap
Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack).
Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop.
PROVE IT OR **** OFF
IAC have already admitted they know they are farmers, so what is your point?
Stop trying to make a point out of that, cause there isnt. Every once in awhile i 'farm' for ISK too, you gonna hate me for that as well?
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Red Crown
Kudzu Collective
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:23:00 -
[121]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Butter Dog
blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap
Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack).
Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop.
PROVE IT OR **** OFF
Why, why oh why did you have to ask...
From a chat I had with a Chinese ISK "Pimp" if you will. Member of the buesrew operation...for the Tl;dr crowd he basically told me IAC and KOS knew he was a farmer-seller and he paid taxes til KOS booted him and he joined IAC. He went on to tell me I couldn't do anything about it because IAC was such a powerful alliance ( You folks) and such...stuff.
His english translator is kind of off. For the less clever among us , Regiment = Corp , "Is not also agrees" = "Doesn't that person agree...?"
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/9937/farmer1ps1.jpg
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5320/farmer2af1.jpg
You'll have to use your zoom powers...
Now I don't like the ISK selling. The farmers themselves I can sympathize with, but the sellers...not so much. ISK selling is a blight upon any game, and the farmers are honestly really annoying. They ruin the mood if you will.
Now is IAC doing the completely correct thing? Not 100%, but its still funny and I think its just fine that they are doing it.
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GO MaZ
Spartan Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:24:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Butter Dog
IAC have already admitted they know they are farmers, so what is your point?
You're getting 2 things severely mixed up here dude... everyone farms for ISK - thats what you do when you rat the same spawns over and over again right, to make isk?
Yeah well thats not the same as RMT, or selling your ingame ISK / assets for real currency, which is against the EULA and is a bannable offence. IAC has mentioned nothing about this and indeed cannot prove that buesrew are involved in RMT either.
Apologies for using the term "ISK Farmer" in my previous post (which is perfectly legal in terms of the EULA) where I actually meant RMT (which is definitely not legal) - which is the real issue at hand.
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:26:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Flower Bear Can't deny you've killed me/I've killed you but how is you sitting there cloaked in hostile space and ratting when its clear for isk too much different then what you are claiming these others are doing(Assuming they arent selling isk for cash)?
The big difference here is that I play this game to enjoy it. I farm some, I pvp some, I buy shiny things with my ISK.
They don't play the game to enjoy it. They don't buy shiny things, they don't PvP unless it's forced down their throat (even then many of them simply roll over and die).
The big difference is that they don't play the game, they work it.
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CardboardSword42
Applied Eugenics
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:48:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 14:11:03
Originally by: Taurequis As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space?
Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me. Taur
You missed the point where IAC admits to decieving and abusing that corp even tho it is in their alliance.
Even if buescrew is legit, surely you can't defend IAC for choosing to use such foul tactics? abusing their own member corp while it's too dumb to realize what's going on (probably not dumb, just clueless about the game cause all they care for is isk farming)
Any real corp would quickly figure out what is happening and realize that they don't need IAC.
I love how you've changed your view from the original post of "We need to punish isk farmers in every way possible and being in IAC rewards them by lending legitimacy" has totally changed into "look how IAC treats its member corps"
I'm Ex-Biomass, that makes me cool But now I'm KOS and that makes me cooler 8)
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:54:00 -
[125]
Originally by: CardboardSword42
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 14:11:03
Originally by: Taurequis As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space?
Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me. Taur
You missed the point where IAC admits to decieving and abusing that corp even tho it is in their alliance.
Even if buescrew is legit, surely you can't defend IAC for choosing to use such foul tactics? abusing their own member corp while it's too dumb to realize what's going on (probably not dumb, just clueless about the game cause all they care for is isk farming)
Any real corp would quickly figure out what is happening and realize that they don't need IAC.
I love how you've changed your view from the original post of "We need to punish isk farmers in every way possible and being in IAC rewards them by lending legitimacy" has totally changed into "look how IAC treats its member corps"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunism
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Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:54:00 -
[126]
thanks, I like to think that I can change my views based on new information presented during course of discussion
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.30 17:13:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 17:05:44 thanks, I like to think that I can change my views based on new information presented during course of discussion
Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunism
I don't believe that applies to me. It's not my goal to be more popular. I stay true to my principles, which are: a) hatred for isk farmers (the kind that don't play the game to enjoy it) b) despise for player alliances that decieve their own corp members and treat them with contempt (either you say you are against them and kick them or show your support for them all the way)
I agree on the latter, i am unaware of what was said exactly by the guys higher up in IAC but i do agree its either kick, or support them as any other member corp.
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Akelorian
Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.07.30 17:18:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Sokratesz
4) they paid us to rat in delve, which is hardly our space. they use catch as a base of ops of some kind, ive never seen them rat around there, go ask them if you really want to know..
Thats funny, unless they left catch they were always farming in RNF.
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Horatio Nately
Caldari 808 Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.30 17:48:00 -
[129]
they cutting in on your officer spawns Eph? ---------------------------------------
CEO 808 Enterprises, A Hawaii, USA Playercorp channel 808 ingame |
Mattduk
Gallente Universal Army
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Posted - 2007.07.30 17:53:00 -
[130]
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Butter Dog
blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap
Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack).
Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop.
PROVE IT OR **** OFF
A fact that if you had read what butter had to say would be clear to you that he has admitted himself. Notice an edit in one of his posts that states 'if indeed they are farmers'. From thereon out he is arguing hypothetically. At least that's my take on it considering the bullet points raised in his posts.
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Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2007.07.30 18:03:00 -
[131]
could one of these isk-farmer.. *ahem* well-invested corps please get a hold of me? i have a few systems i'd like to rent out. great systems, each have their own stations i'm sure the owners would be willing to work docking rights out with you for.
the regions are KDF-GY, ZXIC-7 and F4R2-Q. send me 1 bil for each region you're interested in and you have full access for as long as you require.
enjoy!
Please stop messing with my signature!!! |
Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.30 18:06:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Butter Dog
blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap
Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack).
Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop.
PROVE IT OR **** OFF
IAC have already admitted they know they are farmers, so what is your point?
Stop trying to make a point out of that, cause there isnt. Every once in awhile i 'farm' for ISK too, you gonna hate me for that as well?
I think we both know the difference between the kind of farmers who are 'employees', and the the isk-generation activities of 'players'.
The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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Helganstandt
InNova Tech Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.30 18:20:00 -
[133]
Eph is just mad because they're stealing his officer spawns. It's ok Eph, you're still the king rat ***** in my book, and that will never change.
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Map Screen
Flat Earth Society Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.07.30 18:22:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Map Screen on 30/07/2007 18:23:43
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: GO MaZ
Originally by: Butter Dog
blah blah supposed "moral high ground" crap
Please get off your high horse. You have absolutely no way to prove that they are ISK farmers other than the fact they fly ravens & cloak when you enter local (A good plan really, considering your absolutely terrible local smack).
Your entire argument is based on the assumed "fact" that they are indeed ISK farmers, selling their ISK for real life currency and that they work out of a sweat shop.
PROVE IT OR **** OFF
IAC have already admitted they know they are farmers, so what is your point?
Stop trying to make a point out of that, cause there isnt. Every once in awhile i 'farm' for ISK too, you gonna hate me for that as well?
I think we both know the difference between the kind of farmers who are 'employees', and the the isk-generation activities of 'players'.
The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses.
For such a vocal eAdvocate you sure are pretty terrible if you can't get results from a confession...
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fugazii
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2007.07.30 22:57:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 30/07/2007 14:11:03
Originally by: Taurequis As mentioned before its not illigal to spend all your time npc'ing. So without any evidence saying their selling isk for real cash why should IAC not have them in their space?
Is it because some of their members are from the far east? That smacks of racism to me. Taur
You missed the point where IAC admits to decieving and abusing that corp even tho it is in their alliance.
Even if buescrew is legit, surely you can't defend IAC for choosing to use such foul tactics? abusing their own member corp while it's too dumb to realize what's going on (probably not dumb, just clueless about the game cause all they care for is isk farming)
Any real corp would quickly figure out what is happening and realize that they don't need IAC.
All the pieces are there, you just need to put them together. Obviously they stay in the alliance because it benefits them. For some reason they do want the iac tag, who are you the belittle them for wanting it? Its not like they are able to make isk just because they are in iac, so theyre obviously benefitting some way from it.
You seem to talk down to the chinese as if they are ignorant, have you ever talked to them? what basis to you throw out these insults on? if they are anything like the chinese in other games, not only are they very nice people but they know very much about the games they play.
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fugazii
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2007.07.30 23:07:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Butter Dog
I think we both know the difference between the kind of farmers who are 'employees', and the the isk-generation activities of 'players'.
The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses.
1)they are a famous farming corp 2)since they are famous for doing so, and has "admitted" to it, they have undoubtedly been reported many times with this info presented 3)since they have been reported they have been investigated 4)they are still around, therefor ccp's investigation found them to not be selling 5)i win, you lose. end of discussion.
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Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:32:00 -
[137]
Why would I treat them like any other IAC corp when they're not ? They have a business arrangement with us, this does not entitle them to the exact same advantages "real" IAC corps enjoy.
I don't like it when our allies shoot at them for sport, and there've been some issues with AAA (woah surprising ) Obviously if they're intruding into allies home space and ignore it when told to leave I fully approve of shooting them (same as with normal IAC members who disrespect allies territorial claims and rights).
I didn't let them join just for the ISK, I let them join because I found the whole idea hilarious, now they're being removed from alliance at the request of their CEO.
Buesrew were very nice to work with, always resolved any issues that came up promptly and generously. When invited to help fight FIX they were eager and contributed impressively. (just one time tho). Their CEO's english isn't half bad either, wish I could say the same for h-y corp, now those guys are horrible to communicate with :\
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Wigglytuff
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:07:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: Kayleigh Lothian I think he say "Yes" to the fact that there are ratters using macros (and that they also get banned).
There are no ratting macros. Go ahead and even try to explain to me on how one would work.
Bot enters a system, overview is sorted by name.
Program finds the first belt icon, warps to it, anything with a red icon, it kills. If local count changes, it warps to a SS and activates cloak. Once all red icons are dead in a location, it warps to the next on the list, once it has reached the bottom, it warps to the next system (using multiple Waypoints to give an AP that is dozens of jumps yet only a few systems).
While it's pretty clear you're either completely oblivious to macroers/farmers, or on their side trying to dillute any discussion, it's not hard to make a bot, at all.
EVE is extremely basic compared to WoW, UO or Everquest, and all of those MMOs have bots you can download, activate, and watch run from monster to monster, kill it, loot it, wait and repeat. Bots are not hard to make, they are no more complex than the 'AI' found in many games today.
Belt piracy isnt what it used to be. |
Bu Jinkan
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:12:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Butter Dog
The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses. [/yellow]
What human rights abuses are these, precious?
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Drachenlord
Amarr Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:34:00 -
[140]
Soooo... the question is, does Tyraxx offer them protection out there... hehe, and will IAC be angry if I shoot some of these guys into next week?
-----
While the Enemies of the Emperor still draw breath there can be no peace |
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Mungad
Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:43:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Mungad on 31/07/2007 02:43:48
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk now they're being removed from alliance at the request of their CEO.
Quote: Soooo... the question is, does Tyraxx offer them protection out there... hehe, and will IAC be angry if I shoot some of these guys into next week?
fire away? _____________________________
I farm isk. |
Panconomis
Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:27:00 -
[142]
Bye Buesrew. Thank you for the hilarious drama. I knew it wouldn't last. You will be missed.
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2007.07.31 06:01:00 -
[143]
If this corp is so open about their habits, then it's CCP responsibility to handle it, not IAC's. As long as CCP gives the nod and allows them to continue playing the game, what they are doing is legit.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 07:20:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 31/07/2007 07:23:53
Originally by: Wigglytuff
Originally by: Mr Broker
Originally by: Kayleigh Lothian I think he say "Yes" to the fact that there are ratters using macros (and that they also get banned).
There are no ratting macros. Go ahead and even try to explain to me on how one would work.
Bot enters a system, overview is sorted by name.
Program finds the first belt icon, warps to it, anything with a red icon, it kills. If local count changes, it warps to a SS and activates cloak. Once all red icons are dead in a location, it warps to the next on the list, once it has reached the bottom, it warps to the next system (using multiple Waypoints to give an AP that is dozens of jumps yet only a few systems).
While it's pretty clear you're either completely oblivious to macroers/farmers, or on their side trying to dillute any discussion, it's not hard to make a bot, at all.
EVE is extremely basic compared to WoW, UO or Everquest, and all of those MMOs have bots you can download, activate, and watch run from monster to monster, kill it, loot it, wait and repeat. Bots are not hard to make, they are no more complex than the 'AI' found in many games today.
Heh you done alot of programming lately? It's shy impossible to do that mate. Just think of all the things the logic would have to handle...tank...when to start boosting, when not? Weapons...focus fire, when to reload? What if it runs out of ammo or cap? What if it gets stuck on a roid or runs out of cap mid-warp.
It's impossible to write an *efficient* 0.0 ratting macro. It can be done to a small extent but it would get stuck on an uncheckable variable within minutes.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 08:15:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 31/07/2007 08:16:26
Originally by: Sokratesz
Heh you done alot of programming lately? It's shy impossible to do that mate. Just think of all the things the logic would have to handle...tank...when to start boosting, when not? Weapons...focus fire, when to reload? What if it runs out of ammo or cap? What if it gets stuck on a roid or runs out of cap mid-warp.
It's impossible to write an *efficient* 0.0 ratting macro. It can be done to a small extent but it would get stuck on an uncheckable variable within minutes.
You're either really bad at EvE or programming. You just set EvE to widescreen mode and life is easy, the variables to keep track of are hilariously few and straightforward - as is a building sustained boosting Raven that's cheap.
Basically they run a few macroed clients per PC, and usually it'll give an audio alert if local gets new players - some autosafespot, some autolog, but most common is the user-alert method (in some cases visual out-of-game alerts instead of audio). But firing, targetting, warping and HP management are all comletely automated.
You're more than a little bit delusional if you run into a 1x WCS Raven with a sustained boosting setup that happens to be around 23/7 and don't raise an eyebrow, or better yet deny that it's nearly entirely automated.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 08:49:00 -
[146]
Sure, there are certain tings that can easily be checked but also many others that can't..so untill i see a working one that doesnt need to be checked every few minutes to see if its crashed, i highly doubt they exist.
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Taurequis
Waylander 01
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Posted - 2007.07.31 09:19:00 -
[147]
Originally by: fugazii
Originally by: Butter Dog
I think we both know the difference between the kind of farmers who are 'employees', and the the isk-generation activities of 'players'.
The corp involved have even admitted that they are the former, so I can't understand why there is even a debate about this. Just kick them and stop making you and your alliance look like collaborators in RL human rights abuses.
1)they are a famous farming corp 2)since they are famous for doing so, and has "admitted" to it, they have undoubtedly been reported many times with this info presented 3)since they have been reported they have been investigated 4)they are still around, therefor ccp's investigation found them to not be selling 5)i win, you lose. end of discussion.
exactly,
so bloody head slapppingly obvious that why has this thread even got to 6 pages of waffle.
If you have evidence that they are farming isk to sell for real cash in some sweatshop - THEN BLOODY WELL GIVE IT TO CCP. So they can investigate for the billionth time. Don't for a second think that they can't track all isk moving in and out of the corp, and its members. Hell if i'm totally wrong and they are actually isk selling for cash, what a bloody stupid operation, so high profile, been reported before, in the public eye. etc etc.
Why not just go use a million trial accounts like everyone else.
Enough of the forum hand-baggery and high school drama student bombs.
Best Regards,
Taur
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.07.31 09:48:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Sokratesz Sure, there are certain tings that can easily be checked but also many others that can't..so untill i see a working one that doesnt need to be checked every few minutes to see if its crashed, i highly doubt they exist.
Talk about denial. Wake up.
NPC'ing is not more complex than mining, and the same 'issues' are involved (possibility of getting stuck on roids etc) and overcome. Macros/Bots don't have an issue with NPCing.
It happens. And it happens specifically under your alliance banner.
---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
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MrMajIc
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.07.31 11:00:00 -
[149]
I do not have a problem catching most of the isk farming ravens ( super sekret fishing rod ) and the ones I do catch curse the day they meet me. Insta log and wait for DT, or Insta die returning to eve :P
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 11:00:00 -
[150]
Possibly. But i've had my fair share of both programming scripts (though not specifically for eve) and ratting, and i still see some issues that would be hard to overcome, independent of the programmers skill or time investment.
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Proxay
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:20:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Sokratesz Possibly. But i've had my fair share of both programming scripts (though not specifically for eve) and ratting, and i still see some issues that would be hard to overcome, independent of the programmers skill or time investment.
Some of them i've noted will safespot regardless of whether its friend or foe in system, as well as an automated "o/" in local, which would probably set off one of their computers, to call a 'watcher' over to use broken english to converse with the intruder.
I've suspected some of being automated, there is no way a human can for that amount of time sit at a computer, and do the same task, day after day, with little/no reward.
Fallen Angel's Recruitment |
Solid Wilko
Minmatar InNova Tech Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:00:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
wish I could say the same for h-y corp, now those guys are horrible to communicate with :\
Thank you for confirming h-y are in the same vein. Now I won't feel bad terminating their cloaking ravens in V-I.
Question: Do these corps post their lossmails on alliance boards?
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Cupdeez
Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:05:00 -
[153]
Funny you are so worried about some Chinese ISk farmers that you can't prove are farming. Take a look at your own alliance you have isk farmers doing the same thing. Yah maybe they are using an alt in empire space and mining veldspar but same damn thing pretty much.
You sound like a little girl telling daddy Tommy pulled my hair!!
Does daddy need to hold your hand?
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:10:00 -
[154]
That was very mean of you Tommy. See what your isk-farming is doing to her hair? Apologize. ---
Grismar.net |
James Grand
Phoenix Navy Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:18:00 -
[155]
If they are in fact macroing, not just farming then IAC should care very much since it is against the EULA to profit from the actions of exploiters.
-------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in my posts are entirely my own. |
Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:32:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Solid Wilko
Question: Do these corps post their lossmails on alliance boards?
Yup they do.
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:52:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Moon Kitten on 31/07/2007 17:53:02
Originally by: James Grand If they are in fact macroing, not just farming then IAC should care very much since it is against the EULA to profit from the actions of exploiters.
Ah, so by that rationale, if a scammer scams an exploiter or a pirate ransoms an exploiter, they would be in violation of the EULA. Is that true?
If your statement was true then wouldn't the leaders of IAC be banned by now?
I live under a bridge
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James Grand
Phoenix Navy Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 18:22:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Moon Kitten Edited by: Moon Kitten on 31/07/2007 17:53:02
Originally by: James Grand If they are in fact macroing, not just farming then IAC should care very much since it is against the EULA to profit from the actions of exploiters.
Ah, so by that rationale, if a scammer scams an exploiter or a pirate ransoms an exploiter, they would be in violation of the EULA. Is that true?
If your statement was true then wouldn't the leaders of IAC be banned by now?
How do you ransom or scam a macro? Both of those require player to player contact.
Also, your suggestion that I'm wrong because the leaders of IAC aren't banned yet is completely illogical. Clearly it hasn't been proven that buescrew macros or they would have been banned. Why would CCP ban IAC leadership for working with macroers when it hasn't even been decided if buescrew are macroers or not?
-------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in my posts are entirely my own. |
Fallen Buckshot
Amarr Shadow Gypsies R i s e
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Posted - 2007.07.31 20:15:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 30/07/2007 14:10:11 I have to say as much as I dislike isk farming, I really can't say I agree with all the people who are gung ho against sweatshop employees. They probably have it hard enough without everyone in EvE bullying them. You are never going to fix this problem on the supply side. There is a heavy demand for cash-to-isk transfers and as long as there is demand there will be people in some country who are desperate enough to subjugate themselves in this way. Maybe its better than working in a Burmese coal mine or prostituting themselves to tourists.
I've played EvE for over 4 years now, and in that time I have seen a number of people I have suspected of buying isk. They either flaunt it in TS, or they simply keep coming up with new ships and faction gear without any visible source of income, and then lose it all in the most cavalier manner. Would people report a suspected buyer to CCP if he was a wingman or corp-mate? Perhaps it is easier to just sit back and bully the isk farmers since you don't know them.
As for IAC, they can do as they wish. Some people can contribute to an alliance by pvp, others by isk. But taking their money and letting them get shot at by your allies, as though they were second class citizens?
QFT
Id much rather sit behind a keyboard for 10-12 hrs than be out farming turnips in some 3rd world sh1th0l3
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Liang Bei
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Posted - 2007.08.04 10:38:00 -
[160]
o/ buescrew, our space has been quite since we kicked you out and you went to IAC. We pretty much did the same thing IAC did, until they got out of control and we couldnt find a single free system.
also playing computer games for 12hours sounds pretty good lol. But actually ive lived in china for quite abit, and i know some chinese eve players that constantly get accused of being isk farmers. They dont sell isk, they just play the game...ALOT its really quite popular.
Just remember not all chinese players are farmers... that ****s me the most
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Tiberius Decius
Daedalus Initiative Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.08.04 10:40:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Liang Bei o/ buescrew, our space has been quite since we kicked you out and you went to IAC. We pretty much did the same thing IAC did, until they got out of control and we couldnt find a single free system.
also playing computer games for 12hours sounds pretty good lol. But actually ive lived in china for quite abit, and i know some chinese eve players that constantly get accused of being isk farmers. They dont sell isk, they just play the game...ALOT its really quite popular.
Just remember not all chinese players are farmers... that ****s me the most
stupid alt, this is my main
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Devian 666
Axe Gang
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:20:00 -
[162]
Originally by: GomezChou The funny part about all of this is that, while beusrew rat nearly as much as Jim Lovell (go baby go!), they also participate on an alliance level.
We had a pos shooty op a bit back, and I'll be damned if 15 torp ravens didn't show up, flying the beusrew flag. They warped in as a group, were supporting each others tanks, and were more or less right on time. OUr conventional fleet didn't arrive for another 10-20 minutes.
So yeah, they can stay.
With that one statement it makes beuscrew's members more useful than 95% of typical alliance members.
To think I was considering hunting them just 24hrs ago.
I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain. |
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