Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Countess Markievicz
Gallente 0-Deflex
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 11:53:00 -
[61]
At least it shows that CCP do take problems seriously, all we can ask for really. Just hope it all goes well for the future of the game we all like so much much.
|
Krezeb
Caldari Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:10:00 -
[62]
Yarrdware ftw! -----
New Sig Pending.... |
NeoTheo
Caldari Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:16:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Originally by: Skullet4000
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii Speaking of broken things your post reminds me somewhat of a broken record, I'm guessing your either a Linux or Mac zealot which is kinda sad in its own little way. PC users just get on with it and enjoy what they have, if Macs and Linux are so great then why do there users spend most of there time crying about Microsoft? ;)
On another note the new hardware/software changes are sounding sweet, heres hoping it goes smoothly and things are running super speedy before we know it. :)
Talk to me when your a data security admin for a global corporation.
Until then save your 'one size fits all or else' rhetoric for your blue screen.
I am, and people who pish pish1 product over another without checking the job your are trying to achieve are frankly small minded and awful at there jobs.
i see them every day, in fact i spend most of my time cleaning up the mess they make.
even a generally inferior platform can be the best at a certain job, if you bother to check what it should be doing.
that and the fact i see so many awfully configured linux systems that are infact more insecure than a standard windoes install simply because the admin was told that linux is secure and he does not have a scoobeydoo how to configure the box.
hooohum.
/theo. http://atomicrain.net/eve_sig.jpg
|
NeoTheo
Caldari Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:19:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Nofonno Edited by: Nofonno on 27/07/2007 07:41:05
Originally by: EscapeArtist
So, let me get this straight, you run your database on SQL Server 2005? Microsoft SQL Server 2005?
Lets be clear you have 30,000 consecutive connections and your database is housed on a Windows platform? If I'm wrong please shout it out, but if I am right you all need your heads checked...!
I don't like to trust a windows environment or MS SQL Server in RL with more than a couple of thousand concurrent connection in my line of work.
Jesus guys, I hope its not one of the main DB, or this will totally explain to me why we have so many problems.
Sooo /signed. Not a truckload of RAMSANs and sold Lamborghinis will help you when you're running, say, not-so-reliable software. And, for crying out loud, there's Oracle 10g to download freely.
For the others: if I recall properly, EVE runs on an IBM blade system, so you might want to take a look here.
Originally by: Broken Star
AIX 4 LIFE!
I cannot say I'm fond of the Big Blue. The best UNIX implementation has already been buried (I'm talking about Tru64 by DEC) and what I personally would favour is Solaris... Unices are definitely the way to go in such enterprise.
never fond of solaris myself, ;) cant we just install bsd? ;) http://atomicrain.net/eve_sig.jpg
|
Panshun
Raw Edge O X I D E
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:21:00 -
[65]
tbfh, yes ORACLE is better in many ways for very large apps, however if you wanted to stay ahead of the problem curve you would be better of putting Oracle on a Windows platform than a Unix one (and never a Linux one, I know this from fixing the build scripts for Oracle more than once on various sites). The way it is inside Oracle at the mo it seems that the Windows implementation gets all the fixing, tuning love. Still 'afiedt' A-file-for-edt VMS 4tw.
The main problem with switching to Oracle though is not just getting good DBA/dev staff (which actually isn't that much of a problem, there are a lot of us around and we're embarrasingly cheap these days) it's the absolutely insane license cost of the product.
With all the IBM kit though, and the nice relationship CCP seem to have with them I'm surprised its not built on DB2 meself (again, better than MS SQL Server)
|
NeoTheo
Caldari Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:24:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Panshun tbfh, yes ORACLE is better in many ways for very large apps, however if you wanted to stay ahead of the problem curve you would be better of putting Oracle on a Windows platform than a Unix one (and never a Linux one, I know this from fixing the build scripts for Oracle more than once on various sites). The way it is inside Oracle at the mo it seems that the Windows implementation gets all the fixing, tuning love. Still 'afiedt' A-file-for-edt VMS 4tw.
The main problem with switching to Oracle though is not just getting good DBA/dev staff (which actually isn't that much of a problem, there are a lot of us around and we're embarrasingly cheap these days) it's the absolutely insane license cost of the product.
With all the IBM kit though, and the nice relationship CCP seem to have with them I'm surprised its not built on DB2 meself (again, better than MS SQL Server)
excuse my ignorance thesedays, i assume stored proceedures are supported and DB2?
(just out of interest) - i know it was a big way to poo poo mysql previously (altho i believe fixed now)?
/~Theo. http://atomicrain.net/eve_sig.jpg
|
Panshun
Raw Edge O X I D E
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:28:00 -
[67]
Originally by: NeoTheo
excuse my ignorance thesedays, i assume stored proceedures are supported on DB2? /~Theo.
I believe so, but I've not used DB2 for a very, very long time. However, I can't see how on earth not having that feature would be a showstopper. IMO, digging around inside your RDBMS to find your code was never really a great step forward.
|
NeoTheo
Caldari Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:30:00 -
[68]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 27/07/2007 12:30:59
Originally by: Panshun
Originally by: NeoTheo
excuse my ignorance thesedays, i assume stored proceedures are supported on DB2? /~Theo.
I believe so, but I've not used DB2 for a very, very long time. However, I can't see how on earth not having that feature would be a showstopper. IMO, digging around inside your RDBMS to find your code was never really a great step forward.
yher guess so, i would never pretend to be a database Guru, actaully networking and security are my specialisations. Database work is very much handled by folks who have a clue here ;) i was more interested to know to be honest ;)
/Theo http://atomicrain.net/eve_sig.jpg
|
Broken Star
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 12:48:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Nofonno I cannot say I'm fond of the Big Blue. The best UNIX implementation has already been buried (I'm talking about Tru64 by DEC) and what I personally would favour is Solaris... Unices are definitely the way to go in such enterprise.[/quote
Do you want to hear something funny, in my line of business, in for the UK division they are super hot for AIX, but when I travelled to the NA section, I found they are big fans of Solaris. It just made me laugh.
Only problem with using Sol for the ECM equipment we sell is that its the last platform the code is created for. Then again why wouldn't they, it's an IBM product anyway. LOL. --- I'm an alt, I admit it. |
raven415
Caldari FireStar Inc
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 14:10:00 -
[70]
how about some free eve time for us who have been here all along. not really fair that you give it to those who have left and not give it to us who have not.
|
|
Dark Guardian
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 14:35:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Dark Guardian on 27/07/2007 14:40:00
Originally by: raven415 how about some free eve time for us who have been here all along.
Argh... posting while misreading the article... If the upgrade takes a day or two, instead of a few hours, then we'll get time added. It's happened before.
|
Jerad Korargh
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 15:45:00 -
[72]
when I mean when did the thread change to knocking which database CCP use. Dont you think that CCP, would have tried different DBs and operation systems (ant that what the test servers are for)
and as for the pc v mac/linix for get it WE the masses do not want to hear about, it does our head in, so give it a rest PLEASE
|
Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 16:32:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jerad Korargh when I mean when did the thread change to knocking which database CCP use.
Every time it comes up that CCP runs EVE-Online's data layer on MS SQL Server, you'll find posts saying "You should run it on [MySQL | Oracle | AIX | DB2]" (choose according to whichever system the poster has experience in, if any at all).
|
Cheopis
Serenity Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 17:55:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Skullet4000
Originally by: SexxxSlave
Originally by: Li nee Hehe
I love it when non IT bods spout rubbish
and I love it when people feel the need to pick at those who arent SUPERIORLY IT versed. STFU and educate without the flames.
Ah thats the thing with IT boffins, they always have a load of smart answers to a problem, unless its actually there job to fix said problem then cue much head scratching.
IT handbook Step 1: Tell them to reboot the machine. Step 2: Blame operator error and wash hands of problem.
You forgot step 0 : explain to customer that when you want them to shut off the computer, you mean the box next to the computer's tv.
The scary thing is that in my particular job doing IT support, most problems are solveable by rebooting, and about half of all problems are caused by employees who can't be troubled to follow the directions that pop up on the monitor as they work.
It's almost a relief when someone calls in with a real problem :)
|
EscapeArtist
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 19:13:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Elaron
Originally by: Jerad Korargh when I mean when did the thread change to knocking which database CCP use.
Every time it comes up that CCP runs EVE-Online's data layer on MS SQL Server, you'll find posts saying "You should run it on [MySQL | Oracle | AIX | DB2]" (choose according to whichever system the poster has experience in, if any at all).
No, itĘs just most people with any experience within the IT industry can recognize that you donĘt run an enterprise application with as many connections as EvE has on a windows platform, or using MS SQL 05, itĘs just not build for it.
You know AIX is a platform and MySQL, DB2 and Orcale are databases right? Just checking.
|
HAMTRONIX
Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 19:39:00 -
[76]
Quote: No, itĘs just most people with any experience within the IT industry can recognize that you donĘt run an enterprise application with as many connections as EvE has on a windows platform, or using MS SQL 05, itĘs just not build for it.
You should send an email to the guys at nasdaq, they went to MSSQL 05 ent after migrating from their tandem architecture, be sure to let them know that MS SQL isn't built for "many connections". MS SQL currently processes every trade that happens on the NASDAQ, a number of other exchanges also run on the MS SQL platform. You might also inform Verizon, SAP, Accenture and the rest of the world class companies utilizing the MS architecture that they made the wrong choice. This kind of argument is ridiculous, there is more to it than eve will run better on "insert your fav RDBMS here".
Things like TCO/TCA and integration/interoperability with the rest of the eve architecture must be considered. There is no doubt that there may be some performance increase by utilizing some other RDBMS, but at what cost? For example, the cost per cpu of implementing an oracle solution can easily double the cost of implementing an MS solution. In addition the TCA of an oracle solution is markedly higher than an equivelent MS solution. I could go on and on, each RDBMS has it's place, CCP decided that MS SQL was right for them.
This discussion is beyond the scope of this announcement, we should continue this discussion, in a mature manner, in the appropriate place. (Eve technology lab)
|
Krakkan
ReDevils
|
Posted - 2007.07.27 23:17:00 -
[77]
*everyone is an expert* ramsan is teh sex, 400,000 random I/Os!!! X3? *faint*
Quote: tuxford: AT LEAST ITS SPEELED CORRECTLY tuxford: spelled* Oveur: rofl
|
Spurty
Caldari Citadel of dark arts
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 00:33:00 -
[78]
Just out of curiosity, has CCP investigated the DB software?
MS SQL doesn't appear when I search google for 'worlds fastest database'.
I've heard that the top hit (Cache) comes with a small army of support devs ready to walk your database and stored procedures from whatever DB to theirs with a high degree of success. Heck, you can even download the entire product for trial, just can't get more than 2 people connected without a license.
I love MS as their software is 'good enough' to do the job, but far far far from perfect for any solution. This keeps me employed in the Software industry, so I never want MS to vanish!! I work with all operating systems, that includes VMS, Mac, Linux, Solaris etc etc etc, Windows is just a fantastic games platform (Mac is a close second, Linux is stuck in 3rd)
Yupe, you won't see me poo poo'ing MS for their efforts. Just want to point out that when performance is the central aim, Microsoft is hardly the solution. Its certainly prototyping optimized (proof of design stuff).
Bit disappointed but hell its just a game, not the stock market or anything where not having the fastest costs $$$ :-)
Must say I'd love one of those RAMSAN's but no clue what on earth I'd do with it except huggle it ;-) I'd like an Amarrian Nipple Noogey please!
|
Ankanos
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 00:44:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Ankanos on 28/07/2007 00:53:19
for those curious about the RAMSAM SSD being added to the db. -here is a little promotional snippit in pdf format that its maker, Texas Memory Systems made after CCP deployed the first unit in 2005. (2 pages)
it briefly describes Eve-Online's "one world, one server" challenge and the type of stresses Eve-Online's game design puts on a database server.
It then shows how the RAMSAN helped improve database I/O and calls, -and the relative ingame systems that benefited from it.
I remember the weeks after the first RAMSAN was installed. the speed increases to the market, the bio, faction standings, F10 map, even jumping through a gate, were amazing. everything responded almost instantly. (1 to 2 seconds)
-since then the db has most likely expanded beyond the capacity of the first unit, thus negating some of its glory.
lets hope this additional RAMSAN lets the "hot" db once again reside entirely in the RAMSAN array, -thus bringing back the RAMSAN glory days of yor.. :D
many thanks CCP, for you continual quest to keep the dynamic, interactive artform that is Eve-online, thriving on the best hardware technology has to offer.
-ankanos
(I think this brief is perfect, even for those not technically inclined. )
the pdf snippit: the pdf snippet
text version: Text Version --- |
F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 01:01:00 -
[80]
So much geek speak! [headache smiley]
I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
|
|
Skallebank
Minmatar The 5 Amigo's LLC. NxT LeveL
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 01:10:00 -
[81]
hey, im all for ugrades, but seriously couldn't ccp space them out a bit. been almost every tuesday latly.
|
Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 17:16:00 -
[82]
Originally by: EscapeArtist You know AIX is a platform and MySQL, DB2 and Orcale are databases right? Just checking.
Ahh, slight goof there - meant Informix; came of posting at work while fretting over a poorly domain controller.
The main thing I was trying to illustrate is that there's always a bunch of people who feel they need to prove something (what and to who, I don't know) who leap out to criticise CCP's chosen platform with an obvious lack of thought about the difficulties and risks any project to change it would involve.
|
ShizzaAux
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 17:25:00 -
[83]
This gose for those that claim they know how many connection thing accept. Do you really think they pound the number of users at the SQL servers. No, you have load balanced frontend servers in a MMO login server normaly assigns a frontend for you to connect to or they do a round robin type thing. The front end servers then pipe all there users to some sort of world server via a few pipes vs the number of users connected. Frontend might go right to the SQL backend might not. But im sure sence they have 20000 connections on avg from clients they have multiple frontends. I wouldn't be supprised if they have 2000ish users per frontend server. Granted I have no idea how they setup there system. Not going to try. But assume from how most MMO's are setup up. Now im not trying to bash anyone that has a real job as a admin, but the practice of a MMO is almost like simulating a supercomputer. Sence they say they use clusters, They very well could be using some type of HPC. That would be a new area for MMOs. Not many do. That would put a whole new twist on the normal model below.
20,000+ user connections --> Front End (2000 connections'ish) / Chat (IRC I Bet) --> World (HPC) / Zone or Region (Multiple Blades / Racks) --> Data Layer (SQL / File)
As you get closer to the Data layer the number of connections is alot smaller. Also alot of times the Teir 2 Servers save all player data in ram and only backup to sql and (un)load from sql at player connect and disconnect. You wouldn't want to run the same query to get the players stats ever darn second someone shoots a missle in combat it would be to slow. But Market Data would be ok if its slow. Your normaly not looking at that in combat.
Take your hightech job and goto gamasutra.com sometime. You might learn something. Think outside the box from your corporate level job. Bash me all you want i don't care. Persnaly my self I haven't had a Blue Screen on any of my Servers sence windows NT 4.0. Get good supported hardware and your normaly fine. Don't go out picking a fight cause someone uses windows. IMO i think everyones solutions suck. I just think MS solutions suck less. This also wouldn't be the first MMO to use MS SQL. You also don't know if they just use MS SQL for the database. They could use linux for everything else who knows.
|
Princess Morenta
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 17:42:00 -
[84]
Alot of the major korean MMORPGs run on Win2k3 server or Win2k server alongside a MSSQL database and they can handle some ridiculous loads.
I agree with alot of the posts to the opensource-fanboys saying ooh MYSQL this and the corporate types with Oracle that...
CCP may look like they dont have a clue sometimes but I assure you they not what they are doing with regards to their system design.
|
IlluminatedOne
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 18:48:00 -
[85]
I think EVE's numbers (of simultanious connections) will be on top untill some other MMO game uses object-oriented database, not RDBMS.
|
Bumblina
|
Posted - 2007.07.28 21:25:00 -
[86]
I think the point that everyone is missing here is this ..... it doesn't matter how much you whine, nor what suggestions you make, CCP are going to do what THEY think is best for their game.
They don't want us all to stop paying, they don't want to read all your bloody whines and moans about their choices...... and, do you really think that they enjoy being called in the middle of the night to deal with "our" training emergencys. Just because our lives stop without Eve ..... certainly doesn't mean theirs does.
Ok, I have only been playing a month or so, and, yes, DT's are bloody annoying. It's part of the game. I can't possibly imagine CCP choosing something that isn't going to aid our game play as much as it isn't going to hinder them and their job.
Well done for ANY upgrade imho.
|
Rabiator
|
Posted - 2007.07.29 00:11:00 -
[87]
Originally by: ****zaAux
As you get closer to the Data layer the number of connections is alot smaller. Also alot of times the Teir 2 Servers save all player data in ram and only backup to sql and (un)load from sql at player connect and disconnect. You wouldn't want to run the same query to get the players stats ever darn second someone shoots a missle in combat it would be to slow. But Market Data would be ok if its slow. Your normaly not looking at that in combat.
Very good point. I'd like to add that not all data are equally important to keep consistent.
If a missile gets lost in combat now and then, it might hardly be noticed. Market transactions, on the other hand, are something you really want to get right, maybe to the point where you use one actual database transaction per player trade. I dimly remember a story about a World Of Warcraft exploit, where people found out how to duplicate stuff by handing it over and then somehow crashing the area with the previous owner of the item. Presumably before it was written to the database that he did not have the item anymore. Things like that could be avoided by making the involved database changes atomic, which is exactly what database transitions are for
|
Ossprey Lemming
|
Posted - 2007.07.29 08:17:00 -
[88]
UM the Ramsan is OK BUT why change all the Database hardware? I thought the database was running on newer hardware than the Cluster? and it was bought with the ability to be expanded, so why?
I told you Intel machines don't like too play nice with AMD :-P
|
WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
|
Posted - 2007.07.29 19:36:00 -
[89]
Its really simple people.
CCP decided on MSSQL vs another Database Design. They decided for the use and what features they would use, that MSSQL would be the best choice. So to claim that another choice would get any performance boost without proof, then well your posting your pointless views on the subject.
You might be right you might be wrong, perhaps MSSQL offers some feature that is better then the rest, that is required for their design. Sure they could change it, but as a programmer you learn only to change what you have to.
Upgrading to a new backend/compiler is always a risk and most of the time its worth it. So lets stop this pointless dicussion over trying to tell CCP they should change to ORACLE or some other choice, because they won't listen to us, because we are just customers.
They know 1000% more about their product then we do, so our views on the database choice is pointless.
|
Spurty
Caldari Citadel of dark arts
|
Posted - 2007.07.29 20:51:00 -
[90]
Oh I agree, EVE is probably optimized to use make the most of the MS SQL DB. It probably pushes MS SQL to the limits.
However, those limits don't exist (so low down) in every DB, which is why experimentation with different DBs is a valid side project for CCP as they grow.
In fact, its so valid, I can't begin to believe they don't experiment like this. They must still find MS SQL to be the right fit.
At least CCP is a forward thinking company :-)
Good luck with the upgrade, I'll be flying back from the West coast of Canada during that update. Rawr
I'd like an Amarrian Nipple Noogey please!
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |