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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
433
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Posted - 2016.11.26 09:18:55 -
[31] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Glad to see defender missiles getting some love. YAY, more reasons for destroyers to be used.
Not sure if this is the kind of healthy love they need, however. Not sure why the mechanics would prevent this from becoming a proper PDS to shoot down non-friendly missiles, but I suppose it was easier to code it to shoot down slow moving bombs than fast moving missiles.
I see a potential problem with this system however: if multiple bombs are launched and you have multiple destroyers armed with defender missiles: are they smart enough to not shoot the same target? If 3 defender missiles fire at 5 bombs, will 2 bombs survive or 4? Have a re-read of the posts in this thread. |
Grookshank
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
125
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Posted - 2016.11.26 09:22:36 -
[32] - Quote
Can you please explain the reasoning for this change?
Bombing fleets is already not done that much anymore. Now you introduce a noskill/random/semi-automatic bomb killing missile and make it work for alphas. So large blops put their alphas in cheap destroyers to be safe from any bombing. Do you think this in engaging gameplay for alpha characters? Why do you think bombing is too strong to need a nerf? Why do you further strengthen large blobs against smaller groups?
I simply can't understand it. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
433
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Posted - 2016.11.26 09:34:15 -
[33] - Quote
Grookshank wrote:Can you please explain the reasoning for this change?
Bombing fleets is already not done that much anymore. Now you introduce a noskill/random/semi-automatic bomb killing missile and make it work for alphas. So large blops put their alphas in cheap destroyers to be safe from any bombing. Do you think this in engaging gameplay for alpha characters? Why do you think bombing is too strong to need a nerf? Why do you further strengthen large blobs against smaller groups?
I simply can't understand it. I imagine it's in anticipation of some forthcoming Battleship changes. |
Cristl
515
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Posted - 2016.11.26 09:55:09 -
[34] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:CCP Larrikin wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:So in order to guard your fleet effectively, you really need to put these almost directly on top of your existing fleet (which to need them would be something slow and heavy, say battlecruisers or battleships)... But they're destroyers... so realistically one or two bombs gets through and they're going to explode due to the low EHP of destroyers, especially when sig-bloomed by MWD.
They'll probably get annihilated by a small wing of RLML caracals anyway prior to bombs launching, but I'd say a passive bonus resistance to bomb damage wouldn't go amiss when fitting to destroyers. This is by design. We want to ensure there is plenty of counter-gameplay to destroyers screening a fleet from bombs with defenders. If this is a design decision, I would suggest that it's a poor one... There obviously needs to be counterplay, but by introducing the need to pray to RNGesus you've turned a potentially solid idea into something that is utterly wasteful. My statistics are a little rusty... but as soon as the first missile is launched, every other ship has a 1 in 8 chance of being completely wasted, the second has a 2 in 8 chance of being wasted, the third has a 3 in 8 chance of being wasted, and so on. By the time you've got 4 missiles in the air you're just as likely to completely waste your shot as you are to help your fleet. This is birthday paradox central. Someone will have to check my maths as I'm pretty tired, but 1/8 * 2/8 * 3/8 * 4/8 * 5/8 * 6/8 * 7/8 * 8/8 means that if you counter 8 bombers with 8 support destroyers, your chance of destroying every incoming bomb is practically non-existent (0.2%) giving a 99% chance that a bomb is going to explode on top of your anti-bomber ship and likely destroy it. That's from ONE wave... and in any major fight you're going to have 4 or 5 waves minimum to wreck the EHP of most doctrines. With those kind of numbers, and the number of people required to effectively guard against multiple bombs in multiple waves, with such massively diminishing benefits, I see no circumstance where it would not be preferable to field those same people in sebo'd arty / rail destroyers, sit further away outside defensive bubbles, and try to blap the bombers before their bombs detonate. Your stats are indeed pretty rusty, I'll give more detail when I'm not on a mobile.
However, an obvious failing seems to be: what if a bomber wing fires one bomb before the main wave. Won't all defenders then fire towards that, leaving the main bomb wave to hit unmolested? |
Capqu
Half Empty
1208
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Posted - 2016.11.26 10:22:08 -
[35] - Quote
to the above: assuming each bomb is equally likely to be hit [unlikely in practise], the probability of 8 destroyers destroying 8 bombs if all 8 destroyers fire their defender missile at the same time while all 8 bombs are in range is as follows ( 8! / 8^8 ) = .0024~ just under 1/400 basically
all these launchers will do is make bombing require more people, not be harder or more interesting, just more tedious and frustrating as the fc herds a bag of spiders to make it increasingly likely that a full wave of bombs lands, the bombers have to add more bombs to each wave. whereas before you would launch exactly max bombs per wave, now you will probably want to launch max+3 or 4 to have a high chance of a full hit
this just exasperates all the boring parts of bombing (especially in tidi), where non-fc bomber fleet members literally just sit cloaked for hours. it doesn't provide any interesting game play, it just nerfs an already dying way of 3rd partying or supplementing your main fleet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Capqu
Half Empty
1208
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Posted - 2016.11.26 10:27:36 -
[36] - Quote
and like i previously said, fozziesov and being unable to predict the location of engagements already severely hampers a bomber wings ability to influence an engagement. adding more required pilots per bomb wave through these launchers just ensures less people will be willing to try it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Ammzi
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1916
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Posted - 2016.11.26 10:41:41 -
[37] - Quote
From a game balancing perspective this makes absolutely no sense unless you plan to roll back the bomber nerfs from 2013. Bombers with bomb launchers are used rarely in any large engagement now-a-days due to the distributed multi-grid fights across several systems making the logistics and strategy of a bomber fleet quite complicated.
But now you wish to take the remaining and small usability of bombers and throw that completely out by giving an I-WIN button to counter bombs. Where is the logic in this? Usually these balance posts are preluded by motivation for a particular nerf or boost. I.e. "We will that bombers in general are too powerful in the current game play". But there's no such explanation given here - possibly hinting that you don't have a legitimate motivation.
This change will lead to simply extinguishing an interesting and dynamic combat mechanic in EVE. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions O.U.Z.O. Alliance
1499
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Posted - 2016.11.26 11:58:57 -
[38] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:...Bombers with bomb launchers are used rarely in any large engagement now-a-days due to the distributed multi-grid fights across several systems...
This is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Eve Minions is recruiting.
This is the law of ship progression!
Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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Grookshank
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
125
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:02:49 -
[39] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Ammzi wrote:...Bombers with bomb launchers are used rarely in any large engagement now-a-days due to the distributed multi-grid fights across several systems... This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Yes, removing gameplay options is good. Let's rat, mine, stay safe tethered on citadels and only move out for arranged fun fights :/ |
Ilian Amarin
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
22
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:08:10 -
[40] - Quote
While i personally agree with the idea of this concept. Its execution, in my opinion, is pretty bad.
Having the defender missile randomly choose a bomb is just outright stupid.
Just make it rather quick for a dessie (~2-3s) to lock onto a bomb and make the defender launcher a targeted attack against the bomb that kills it.
Also please give us EWar bomb types, for e.g. Tracking Disruption, Sensor Dampening with an AOE timed effect. Kind of like an inverse command burst.
And those bombs should take like 2 defender missiles to take out. |
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Martin Gregor
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:31:07 -
[41] - Quote
I don't see any need for this in the current meta. Sure, defender missiles are pretty useless right now, but making bombs useless just to make defender missiles useful is a very bad trade. |
Lumpymayo
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. V. O. I. D.
105
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:31:34 -
[42] - Quote
I've been telling new players for a month now not to train bombers because of this nerf. The Counter play to the Counter Play against bombers is not to fly them anymore.
Welcome to Destroyers Online. |
James Cowpet
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:39:19 -
[43] - Quote
The physicist in me is triggered. |
Dejara Thoris
Alea Iacta Est Universal Blades of Grass
5
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:44:54 -
[44] - Quote
Do missile guidance disruptors work on these new Defender missiles? |
Loran Chelien
4.20ly Mining Range Circle-Of-Two
0
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:45:52 -
[45] - Quote
What if a defender missile is going after a bomb and that bomb gets blown up by another defender missile, does it retarget to another bomb? |
Daktar Jaxs
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
54
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:46:11 -
[46] - Quote
this is a dumb idea, i hate you |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18211
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Posted - 2016.11.26 12:50:08 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi Space Friends, Coming with the December release, we're going to be releasing a feature we talked about at EVE Vegas 2016. Defender Missile SkillThe skill, Defender Missiles, will no longer require Missile Launcher Operation. All alpha characters will be able to train this to Level 1. The skill will provide a 10% per level bonus to Defender Missile velocity. No other skills will effect Defender Missiles. Defender MissilesDefender Missiles will no longer shoot down missiles aimed at you. Instead they will launch at a random bomb (non-structure) within its flight range. A single defender missile will kill any bomb. These defender missiles can only be loaded into a new defender launcher (described below) The Defender Missile I has a base range of 30km (45km at max skills), and a flight time of 3 seconds. During the December patch downtime, all existing defender missiles (and their blueprints) will become the new Defender Missile IDefender LaunchersThe Defender Launcher I can only load Defender Missiles. It may only be fit to Destroyer class vessels (Destroyers, Interdictors, Command Destroyers and Tactical Destroyers). Once activated, it will scan local space for any bombs,and if it finds one within range, launch a defender missile to intercept it. If it doesn't find any bombs within range, it will still cycle. The Defender Launcher I has a 120 second reactivation timer. It doesn't require a launcher hardpoint, and has low fitting requirements (10 cpu, 2 powergrid), but uses some capacitor (50gj) to activate. You can only fit one defender launcher. Command DestroyersCommand Destroyers receive at 50% role bonus to decreasing the reactivation timer on Defender Launchers. Bomb ChangesBombs now have a Minimum Velocity of 1m/s that you must be traveling at before you can launch. This is to fix some issues that can happen when your velocity is 0, causing the bomb not to move and just explode on you. You can checkout these changes (and more) on Sisi soon. We appreciate any feedback you have! Cheers, CCP Larrikin and Team Phenomenon
Excellent change, long overdue.
"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."
Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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Capqu
Half Empty
1213
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:00:16 -
[48] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Excellent change, long overdue.
state ur reasoning
[read: make up some reasoning now u brown-nosing pizza ****]
oh wait i forgot u just blindly agree with anything that nerfs things u don't do nor ever will do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Olmeca Gold
Pleonexium Sustainable Whaling Inc.
30
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:01:51 -
[49] - Quote
CCP Larrikin wrote:Hi Space Friends, Coming with the December release, we're going to be releasing a feature we talked about at EVE Vegas 2016. Defender Missile SkillThe skill, Defender Missiles, will no longer require Missile Launcher Operation. All alpha characters will be able to train this to Level 1. The skill will provide a 10% per level bonus to Defender Missile velocity. No other skills will effect Defender Missiles. Defender MissilesDefender Missiles will no longer shoot down missiles aimed at you. Instead they will launch at a random bomb (non-structure) within its flight range. A single defender missile will kill any bomb. These defender missiles can only be loaded into a new defender launcher (described below) The Defender Missile I has a base range of 30km (45km at max skills), and a flight time of 3 seconds. During the December patch downtime, all existing defender missiles (and their blueprints) will become the new Defender Missile IDefender LaunchersThe Defender Launcher I can only load Defender Missiles. It may only be fit to Destroyer class vessels (Destroyers, Interdictors, Command Destroyers and Tactical Destroyers). Once activated, it will scan local space for any bombs,and if it finds one within range, launch a defender missile to intercept it. If it doesn't find any bombs within range, it will still cycle. The Defender Launcher I has a 120 second reactivation timer. It doesn't require a launcher hardpoint, and has low fitting requirements (10 cpu, 2 powergrid), but uses some capacitor (50gj) to activate. You can only fit one defender launcher. Command DestroyersCommand Destroyers receive at 50% role bonus to decreasing the reactivation timer on Defender Launchers. Bomb ChangesBombs now have a Minimum Velocity of 1m/s that you must be traveling at before you can launch. This is to fix some issues that can happen when your velocity is 0, causing the bomb not to move and just explode on you. You can checkout these changes (and more) on Sisi soon. We appreciate any feedback you have! Cheers, CCP Larrikin and Team Phenomenon
Hey CCP,
I just want to urge you to think about this question: when was the last time you have seen a bombing run evaporating an entire fleet? They instantly get posted on reddit, and you can see it happens perhaps once in a month, if one is to give an optimist estimate. There has been plenty of large fights during past months, but no proper bombing runs anyone has ever showed off. This means bombing is already close to be eliminated from meta.
Now I believe you have all those nullsec people as CSM and overrepresent them in the feedback you keep hearing, and they keep telling you how there is no counterplay to bombing runs. But this is because they have never been behind one. The main challenge of a bombing run today is setting it up, and finding a proper fleet to bomb. I would safely say more than %70 of the doctrines people are using are not bombable, because it simply takes too many waves for fleet to die, and they can simply warp off. Furthermore, bombable fleets are everywhere as well. Hurricanes are all over nullsec fights, which shows being bombable does not significantly limit people to unbombable doctrines. So here is already one counterplay; warping off. Here is another: having 5-10 ceptors circling your fleet trying to decloak people. Here is another: Never standing still.
Thus there are already huge countermeasures to bombing, but they are all indirect, thus people are not aware the relation between these and countering bombruns. And then when they die to that bombrun they complain how it was impossible to evade.
I get that these changes give alphas meaningful gameplay, while also giving people chance to directly respond to bombruns, which are in themselves interesting. BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD do not push bombing out of the meta even more. It is one of the most fun, most interesting combat mechanics in Eve, such that you featured it before everything else in This is Eve. Now you are making it so that nobody takes out bombing fleets anymore.
If you really want anti-bomb missiles so much because they are an interesting mechanic, you definitely need to buff bombing to keep it inside meta. This can be done in the form of increasing the amount of bombs you can explode next to each other, enabling ewar bombs to be exploded next to damage bombs, introducing t2 bombs, or combinations of these.
I hope you can hear our voice at times over those null people you keep listening a lot.
Olmeca Bombers Bar FC |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2588
|
Posted - 2016.11.26 13:16:21 -
[50] - Quote
Olmeca Gold wrote:Now I will say this and I will get downvoted to hell as every time
http://i.imgur.com/ujc3Y7s.png
Olmeca Gold wrote: believe you have all those nullsec people as CSM and overrepresent them in the feedback you keep hearing
There's a remedy for this.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Olmeca Gold
Pleonexium Sustainable Whaling Inc.
30
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:28:50 -
[51] - Quote
Querns wrote:There's a remedy for this.
What if I want to just play a balanced game, and make my opinions about what makes it better heard, but and not make the game a huge deal in my real life? Or what if I don't care about achieving a huge organization, or just don't want to play the game in that way as a part of such an organization? Because this is how the majority who is not a part of NC/PC/Goons feels like. |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2588
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:33:42 -
[52] - Quote
Olmeca Gold wrote:Querns wrote:There's a remedy for this. What if I want to just play a balanced game, and make my opinions about what makes it better heard, but and not make the game a huge deal in my real life? Or what if I don't care about achieving a huge organization, or just don't want to play the game in that way as a part of such an organization? Because this is how the majority who is not a part of NC/PC/Goons feels like.
The remedy is to vote, not to join a large power bloc.
I wouldn't worry too much, though. After our complete and total defeat in the Casino Wars, you probably won't see much of GSF on the CSM next year.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
88
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:34:40 -
[53] - Quote
I think everyone appreciates the effort to make the defender missiles and their skills actually do something. But as a dozen people have already said.... nobody bombs anymore. Bombs are so lacking in utility or efficacy, this is the gravestone of bombing as a whole. Unless this release is PAIRED with a whole new suite of bombs, "bombing" will be all but forgotten.
Here is a list of crazy new utility to bombing that you could include:
High speed bombs that travel (and detonate) faster High range bombs that go faster with the same travel time Proximity bombs that detonate when a ship is within 50% of its explosion range E-war bombs that produce a single use of effects like the supers aoe projections Shrapnel bombs that do enormous damage to drones, but very little to ships High radius bombs with lower damage and better application persistent effect bombs that produce an aoe affect bubble that travels with it during its entire flight time
If you're going to let people shut down bombing runs, you need to make sure people want to bomb. |
Olmeca Gold
Pleonexium Sustainable Whaling Inc.
30
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:36:01 -
[54] - Quote
Querns wrote:Olmeca Gold wrote:Querns wrote:There's a remedy for this. What if I want to just play a balanced game, and make my opinions about what makes it better heard, but and not make the game a huge deal in my real life? Or what if I don't care about achieving a huge organization, or just don't want to play the game in that way as a part of such an organization? Because this is how the majority who is not a part of NC/PC/Goons feels like. The remedy is to vote, not to join a large power bloc. I wouldn't worry too much, though. After our complete and total defeat in the Casino Wars, you probably won't see much of GSF on the CSM next year.
Well actually I wish DBRB was CSM or something, at least some bomber voice would be heard, and he is the only one FC from null that I know. And you will prolly be replaced by other null people, so that changes nothing from our perspective. |
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
672
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:36:20 -
[55] - Quote
This will be the fourth or fifth nerf to bombing runs in what, one and a half years? It seemed to me on CSM X that the signal radius, warp speed, bomb flight time, and input broadcasting nerfs succeeded in reducing abusive bombing runs.
As other users pointed out, it doesn't seem bombing runs are so oppressive that they need a fourth nerf. Perhaps this would be the time to consider rolling back one or two of the previous nerfs? Doing so will actively encourage more Defender Missile pilots anyway.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Capqu
Half Empty
1213
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:36:29 -
[56] - Quote
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:I think everyone appreciates the effort to make the defender missiles and their skills actually do something. But as a dozen people have already said.... nobody bombs anymore. Bombs are so lacking in utility or efficacy, this is the gravestone of bombing as a whole. Unless this release is PAIRED with a whole new suite of bombs, "bombing" will be all but forgotten.
Here is a list of crazy new utility to bombing that you could include:
...
If you're going to let people shut down bombing runs, you need to make sure people want to bomb.
you're a new person but i like you a lot thanks for the post very eloquent [not sarcasm]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2588
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:36:47 -
[57] - Quote
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:I think everyone appreciates the effort to make the defender missiles and their skills actually do something. But as a dozen people have already said.... nobody bombs anymore. Bombs are so lacking in utility or efficacy, this is the gravestone of bombing as a whole. Unless this release is PAIRED with a whole new suite of bombs, "bombing" will be all but forgotten.
"No one" bombs any more because the entire game flies T3Cs, or other sig-tanking doctrines whose primary benefit is resistance to bombs. Providing counterplay other than training Strategic Cruisers opens up quite a bit of room for other ships to actually get used in nullsec.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Capqu
Half Empty
1213
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:37:24 -
[58] - Quote
Olmeca Gold wrote:Querns wrote:Olmeca Gold wrote:Querns wrote:There's a remedy for this. What if I want to just play a balanced game, and make my opinions about what makes it better heard, but and not make the game a huge deal in my real life? Or what if I don't care about achieving a huge organization, or just don't want to play the game in that way as a part of such an organization? Because this is how the majority who is not a part of NC/PC/Goons feels like. The remedy is to vote, not to join a large power bloc. I wouldn't worry too much, though. After our complete and total defeat in the Casino Wars, you probably won't see much of GSF on the CSM next year. Well actually I wish DBRB was CSM or something, at least some bomber voice would be heard, and he is the only one FC from null that I know. And you will prolly be replaced by other null people, so that changes nothing from our perspective.
fear not the csm, reddit is the true battleground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2588
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:38:54 -
[59] - Quote
Olmeca Gold wrote: Well actually I wish DBRB was CSM or something, at least some bomber voice would be heard, and he is the only one FC from null that I know. And you will prolly be replaced by other null people, so that changes nothing from our perspective.
So vote, and be the change you wish to see.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Olmeca Gold
Pleonexium Sustainable Whaling Inc.
30
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Posted - 2016.11.26 13:39:33 -
[60] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kasia en Tilavine wrote:I think everyone appreciates the effort to make the defender missiles and their skills actually do something. But as a dozen people have already said.... nobody bombs anymore. Bombs are so lacking in utility or efficacy, this is the gravestone of bombing as a whole. Unless this release is PAIRED with a whole new suite of bombs, "bombing" will be all but forgotten.
"No one" bombs any more because the entire game flies T3Cs, or other sig-tanking doctrines whose primary benefit is resistance to bombs. Providing counterplay other than training Strategic Cruisers opens up quite a bit of room for other ships to actually get used in nullsec.
This is plain wrong. Hurricanes, feroxes, etc. etc. are everywhere. |
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