Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.04.01 22:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Soporo on 01/04/2007 22:56:17 Rev/Kali there was a lot of talk about trying to increase the time of actual combat.
I think two things came up in the Dev blogs concerning this attempt:
Hit Point boost and Heat.
As we all know the hp boost was less than wildly popular with Amar but Carrier pilots made out pretty well. The HP boost, regardless of what anyone thinks of it, is a done deal.
Heat is left, and from what I gather, the concept revolves around Ships generating enormous amounts of heat which must be either dispersed or re-routed, else module/ship damage may occur.
It was mentioned that pilots would have the potential to adjust or re-route said heat to affect certain modules for good or ill. ie: draining heat from the shield modules would improve shield performance, at the expense of whatever module you routed the excess heat to, say the armor or weapons. It can be assumed there will be new modules created, specifically for this new deal. It is also assumed that some people will cry doom and gloom, and OMG PIRACY IS DEAD threads all over the place, but thats neither here nor there.
I havent heard anything in a while about this, is it still on the burner but pre-empted by the NFS initiative? Does anyone know any more info about it?
Also, if the idea is to increase combat time, what other ideas could be implemented? Someone once said that total overall general damage needs a nerf, which would improve combat time, but things like POS warfare, which already sickeningly boring ass, would suffer. It could be argued that the Heat (and HP boost) implementation is an indirect damage nerf.
A recent idea (that I liked a lot) was to implement purchaseable crews or varying levels of effectiveness, which would give a %boost to certain ship operations/modules. If these boosts were kept to strictly defensive things, like shields/armor/resists, it might certainly help.
Regardless, without knowing any more than I do, I am still certain I want SLOWER COMBAT. As is, its either ganker or gankee, and wtfpwned or wtfpwn the other guy, OR a long, long, boring, slow ass POS warfare kinda thing.
The fights that occur between these two extremes seem few and far between, a happy middle ground would be welcome, imo.
(I have fought in Fleet ops, big and small blobs, seen POS warfare, 0.0 ops, Empire gank and Empire 'Dec fighting. The only lack of experience I have is in much LowSec fighting, as frankly, LowSec just sucks in rewards, and Stations, and Services, and...well nm.)
Soooo, to make a long story short, what do you think?
Longer combat = good? or Longer combat = da debil!
|
Trina Polaris
Pwny Express
|
Posted - 2007.04.01 23:05:00 -
[2]
Oh yeah lets screw up solo PvP even more.
|
|
Deckard Bishop
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
|
Posted - 2007.04.01 23:06:00 -
[3]
heat will be discussed in the next issue of E:ON which you can read about here
Originally by: TURNING UP THE HEAT(E:ON Iss.7)
"She can'nae take no more!" is a cry many have heard from a certain brusque faux-Scots engineer over the years, and it's one you may be screaming at your monitor when CCP introduces module overclocking, or rather, Heat. EVE TV's Ifni chats with Tuxford and Hammerhead on how combat might be affected and what the future course is for Tech III and, perhaps, beyond."
forum rules | [email protected] | Our Website!
Contact Support - Report Bug - Join ISD
|
|
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.04.01 23:26:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Soporo on 01/04/2007 23:25:47 Ahh sweet, thanks. Errr, not buying EON, so I guess I will just have to wait till it hits a blog.
|
Humpalot
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 00:04:00 -
[5]
I wholeheartedly agree and wish for longer combat (not counting the POS deal). The last few times I got cuaght by a gate camp I doubt the whole thing lasted a minute if that (and my ships were suitably fitted with tanks). Pretty much if they scram you and web you it is all over. All I ever do is run for the gate in those cases because to aggress would lock me out and as a solo ship I am highly unlikely to pop anything in that same timeframe. If more time were involved then I might have a go at trying to nail the tacklers (or whatever).
As a pilot who flies mostly Amarr ships the whole heat thing scares me in a fundamental way (lasers and heat kinda go together). I am sure the devs would balance it so it affected everyone in a similar fashion...just a knee jerk reaction. That said I see heat as helping blobs and nerfing smaller groups. Presumably heat would build up with use. If you can gank your target in 30 seconds why care about heat? Just lay it all in to the gank and you are done. However, for the guy trying to survive against 5 ships he'll be managing reppers and guns all going full bore and heat will kill him. Again makes the best option to just try and run. Of course I have NO idea how CCP is seeing this yet...just my imaginings.
I have heard of people proposing stacking nerf to having multiple ships target a single ship. Personally it sounds good to me but I know a few posters whose opinions I have come to respect on this forum say it is a bad idea (without elaborating). I have not seen those discussions but to my mind it could be balanced so you wouldn;t hurt small groups but break up massive blob focus fire. If anyone can point me to a thread talking about this I would love to see it (tried the near worthless search for it...no joy).
|
Mortimer Phinn
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 00:30:00 -
[6]
I think this could be pretty cool if implemented properly as a main complaint is fighting is hitting F1-F8 and then hoping you win.
I'd love to see a control with sliders somewhat like a equalizer, one for each of the main systems. Having the slider in the middle is like right now, but you could slide the weapons to positive to increase damage but would have to reduce one other system to maintain balance. Start getting overwhelmed in a fight, so you slide the shields/armor up and reduce speed or something else for balance. Could really be fun.
|
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 00:44:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Soporo on 02/04/2007 00:41:50
Quote: Presumably heat would build up with use. If you can gank your target in 30 seconds why care about heat? Just lay it all in to the gank and you are done. However, for the guy trying to survive against 5 ships he'll be managing reppers and guns all going full bore and heat will kill him.
Maybe, but if they implemented it correctly, then in the above example, maybe he could put it all into tank and hope to hold out till the enemy HAS to lay off the guns due to heat, then gank back.
At least, I gather thats what the idea behind it all is, more tactical options basically. As is, most of your tactics occur BEFORE the combat happens. Barring a bit of ranging and optimal, transversal, and whatnot.
|
Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 01:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 02/04/2007 01:04:40
Quote: Presumably heat would build up with use. If you can gank your target in 30 seconds why care about heat? Just lay it all in to the gank and you are done. However, for the guy trying to survive against 5 ships he'll be managing reppers and guns all going full bore and heat will kill him.
Maybe, but if they implemented it correctly, then in the above example, maybe he could put it all into tank and hope to hold out till the enemy HAS to lay off the guns due to heat, then gank back.
At least, I gather thats what the idea behind it all is, more tactical options basically. As is, most of your tactics occur BEFORE the combat happens. Barring a bit of ranging and optimal, transversal, and whatnot.
Anyway, I dont know if a gatecamp would be a good example, basically, if you hit one solo unknowing, your prolly gonna die. (unless shuttle, or inty or mwd/nano fast frig etc)
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
|
Nicholas Barker
Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 01:24:00 -
[9]
hp increase slow down pvp, heat speeds up. omg -------------------------------------
Am Orbitin' ur shi... i said orbit... ORBIT... no don't fly off in that direction |
VJ Maverick
Caldari Maverick Specialized Services
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 02:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
|
|
Erdain
Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 05:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
can't argue with that :)
Then again any type of energy can create heat..
One Race To Rule Them All:
|
Viliny
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 05:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
You put hot cocoa in a thermal right?
You would imagine heat wouldn't be a problem in space where you can easily use the... what -280 (?) celsius of space to cool down stuff?
|
Laramon Questor
Minmatar Knights of the Silver Dawn
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 06:03:00 -
[13]
What they meant was that instead of doing x/x EM/Therm dmg, it would add in a 3rd component of lasers, heat. Yes, it seems redundant to say Thermal and Heat damage, but they chose the names not me. The heat damage could be split up across all systems, like say if it did "1 heat damage" that would mean that it adds 1 heat point to all systems that would have to be siphoned off or cause problems.
I was against this just hearing little bits before, but now I'm a little excited.
Even after failure, there can be redemption.
|
Kryptman Felstorm
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 06:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Viliny
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
You put hot cocoa in a thermal right?
You would imagine heat wouldn't be a problem in space where you can easily use the... what -280 (?) celsius of space to cool down stuff?
Hijack warning.
Actually it's the stuff in space that's that cold (on average) and there isn't enough of it to reliably carry heat away (vacuum). All heat must be radiated away which can be difficult to do as it relies on pieces of metal or alloy with a large surface area that is not being bombarded with radiation.
Just for clarification: Space isn't cold, just the stuff in it is and there isn't a whole lot of it.
|
Ifni
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 06:29:00 -
[15]
Heat is not a third damage type for lasers
You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough. |
Na'Thuul
Caldari Suffoco Noctis Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 06:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Deckard Bishop heat will be discussed in the next issue of E:ON which you can read about here
Originally by: TURNING UP THE HEAT(E:ON Iss.7)
"She can'nae take no more!" is a cry many have heard from a certain brusque faux-Scots engineer over the years, and it's one you may be screaming at your monitor when CCP introduces module overclocking, or rather, Heat. EVE TV's Ifni chats with Tuxford and Hammerhead on how combat might be affected and what the future course is for Tech III and, perhaps, beyond."
What about us second-rate players who doesn't buy E:ON? --- Do not edit moderator messages -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 06:49:00 -
[17]
From previous dev statements ( if still accurate ) : heat is what you get when you push modules above their normal operating specs.
Want more than 100% damage output of your blasters ? Fine but you pays for it. Ditto shield booster output etc.
|
Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 07:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ifni Heat is not a third damage type for lasers
yes it is i whant to cook eges with it before they leave the ship mmm pirateing hole ships mmmm
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
|
Lygos
Finis Actum
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 07:49:00 -
[19]
This is the hot and sweaty, overweight, and slightly dazed version of eve we are talking about.
EVE: The Saccharine Nemesis
--- T2 Risk | Corp Divisions |
Ifni
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 07:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Max Hardcase From previous dev statements ( if still accurate ) : heat is what you get when you push modules above their normal operating specs.
Want more than 100% damage output of your blasters ? Fine but you pays for it. Ditto shield booster output etc.
You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough. |
|
Viliny
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 09:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kryptman Felstorm
Originally by: Viliny
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
You put hot cocoa in a thermal right?
You would imagine heat wouldn't be a problem in space where you can easily use the... what -280 (?) celsius of space to cool down stuff?
Hijack warning.
Actually it's the stuff in space that's that cold (on average) and there isn't enough of it to reliably carry heat away (vacuum). All heat must be radiated away which can be difficult to do as it relies on pieces of metal or alloy with a large surface area that is not being bombarded with radiation.
Just for clarification: Space isn't cold, just the stuff in it is and there isn't a whole lot of it.
So what your meaning to say is, without air the heat can't transfer to other substances?
|
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 10:28:00 -
[22]
'Heat' is infrared radiation. Infrared radiation can travel through space as photons without the need for any conductive medium. Therefore you can radiate heat/energy just fine without having to have any matter to conduct it to.
Therefore: a vacuum is near absolute zero due to the lack of anything in it: matter or radiation. Radation from a ship would radiate into the vacuum, trying to equalize the amount of energy in all systems. So yes, radiation would spontaniously radiate from a ship, cooling it down just fine.
The problem is when you're near a star (the sun for instance) and you get a face full of it's radiation with no shielding (the atmosphere for instance).
Because I said so...
|
William Hamilton
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 11:06:00 -
[23]
^aye, but radiation is still an extremely innefective way to dispel heat....
As for talking about putting all energy into guns for an ultra-gank setup, hopefully heat will be tied in with module damage (something else CCP wants to implement) and so the guy with the gank setup better hope his enemy dies before his guns burn out, this is just blind speculation of course, but it would be neat (reminds me of "High Noon" in Freespace 2)
And just to go of on a totally wild tangent and probably derail the thread, it seems "thermal" damage in EvE is a better anolouge to simply "energy transfer", this includes kinetic energy. The "kinetic" damage type seems to refer better to structural stress. "explosive" refers to momentum as the game's guide says, and "EM" seems to be "Anything Sci-Fi".
|
insulubria
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 11:16:00 -
[24]
Slowing down PVP or PVE even in any way is just lame however...
IF Heat Doesnt exist on a ship you dont "overclock" then thats pefectly fine.
now the fact you can O/C weapons OR Sb/Reppers would be awsome.
2200 boost for 360energy every 2.1x seconds on my raven just isnt enough!
This could be very good or very tacky, It depends how its impliemented.
Rigs turned out pretty good imho, I can only hope this overclocking can happen to a fitted module itself and not take away from our rig slots and module slots.
Or it would be letting us do less in the end and be counter intuitive.
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 11:54:00 -
[25]
The only way to achieve that is makign battles happen in small scale. Get rid of blobs. Focus in small gangs.
5vs 5 battes is where the fun is.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Ashaz
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 12:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Viliny You would imagine heat wouldn't be a problem in space where you can easily use the... what -280 (?) celsius of space to cool down stuff?[/quote
achtually no. since you're floating around in a vacuum, getting rid of heat will be a huge problem.
afaik the astronauts found this out quite quickly.
|
Humpalot
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: murder one The problem is when you're near a star (the sun for instance) and you get a face full of it's radiation with no shielding (the atmosphere for instance).
Actually even if you are in the deepest space with no star nearby dumping off excess heat in space is rather difficult. There are three ways to get rid of heat: conduction, convection and radiation. Of the three radiation is the least efficient at it.
|
Cougem
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:53:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Cougem on 02/04/2007 13:50:53 Edited by: Cougem on 02/04/2007 13:50:01
Originally by: murder one 'Heat' is infrared radiation. Infrared radiation can travel through space as photons without the need for any conductive medium. Therefore you can radiate heat/energy just fine without having to have any matter to conduct it to.
Therefore: a vacuum is near absolute zero due to the lack of anything in it: matter or radiation. Radation from a ship would radiate into the vacuum, trying to equalize the amount of energy in all systems. So yes, radiation would spontaniously radiate from a ship, cooling it down just fine.
The problem is when you're near a star (the sun for instance) and you get a face full of it's radiation with no shielding (the atmosphere for instance).
Heat isn't 'just' infrared radiation. For starters, all forms of nonionising radiation can carry heat, there's nothing special about infrared. The reason many people think infrared is special is because objects that are of temperatures we're used to 0-100-ish emit photons in the infrared range of the spectrum. Hotter objects like the sun emit photons of shorter wavelength - the white light of the sun carries heat in the same manner, and in fact these photons gives more energy. Our over-heating modules on our ships may well be red hot, like a spaceship on re-entry - guess what, that's heat radiation, and a lot of it isn't infrared because we can see it!
Also, saying just because you can radiate in space meansd you should be cool is crap - yes it's one way of dissipating the heat, but no chance in hell it'd be good enough. If you put a red hot brick in a dark cupboard for a minute and opened it a minute later it'd still be bloody hot. Conduction/convection is far better a means of dissipating heat on that sort of level than radiation.
|
Cougem
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 13:58:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Cougem on 02/04/2007 14:04:21 Oh, and heat isn't just nonionising radiation either. A particle doesn't need to emit photons to transfer heat. Heat is merely kinetic energy on a particle level - these particles can absorb photons and, in the case of electrons, move to higher energy state, or atoms, vibrate more quickly. However, this is not the only way to transfer heat - if I touch a hot kettle it is direct transfer of heat by massful particles, usually, that makes me feel hot, rather than photoemission.
Oh and let's pretend the cupboard in the previous post is infinitely large for you pedants ;)
|
|
CCP Wrangler
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 15:25:00 -
[30]
Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
Wrangler Assistant Community Manager EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
|
|
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:02:00 -
[31]
Alas I don't see how heat could really be well implemented until lag issues get addressed when it comes to fleets. But it sounds like it would add a lot to solo fighting.
- - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - - "Your weapons deactivate as the eve servers begin to explode." |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:06:00 -
[32]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
That means it willb e soemthign setuped "In dock"? Or "in flight"?
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Humpalot
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:11:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Soporo Random thought: I read somewhere that vanes or fins get rid of heat pretty fast, look at a fan coil unit for instance, or a heat exchanger on a big RTU.
Absolutely. Just look at the heat sink in your computer...lots of metal fins. They work mostly via conduction to remove heat. Your processor heats up and transfers that heat to the heat sink. Your fan pushes air through the fins to grab the heat (also via conduction) and then get it out of the way. Air is not very good for conducting heat though which is why you need to push so much air through the heat sink to be effective and why they use fins as they greatly increase the surface area where air can get to the metal to grab some heat. Liquids are generally better at this hence liquid cooled systems are more efficient.
Your heat sink also gives away heat via radiation (if you had thermal goggles you could see it glowing) but this is hugely inefficient compared to conduction and your heat sink would have to be huge to dissipate enough heat in this fashion to be useful.
Convection comes in when the hot air leaves your computer. Convetion is a fluid thing (don't think liquid...air is considered a fluid for this too) and heat moves around your room balancing the hot spot by your computer with the cooler air around it.
|
Mastin Dragonfly
Absolutely No Return
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
Yay, more fitting headache? Any benefits or just pain in the rear?
|
Steppa
Gallente Incognito Inc
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:22:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Steppa on 02/04/2007 16:18:26 /activate dead horse beating paddle
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Two things will slow combat down. Stack-nerf focused fire (there is a very cool way to do this without being overly simplistic about it) and allow for more meaningful combat tactics during engagements; ie, warp-to targets would be enabled. Currently, you cannot warp to a ship that's 151km away if he's not in your gang. But, if he drops a can...you can warp to the can.
Makes no sense from any perspective other than protecting snipers.
Allowing warp-to-targets, maybe even only for certain shiptypes equipped with certain modules, would allow frigates and cruisers to be useful in fleet combat again. For that matter, restrict the warp-to-target function to cruiser and below.
|
Steppa
Gallente Incognito Inc
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:25:00 -
[36]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
I-War had a very cool, intuitive, easy-to-use control that routed power to where you wanted it. It was a triangle icon with a movable circle inside it. Each corner of the triangle represented a different group of ship systems; engines, shields, weapons. If you had the circle centered, each system operated at 100% efficiency and got 33.3333 percent of the power output. You could move it anywhere within the triangle to boost one or two systems at the cost of others.
Why not do something related with heat? Or, barring that, just make it a stand-along control?
|
Arbelia Amarsa
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:28:00 -
[37]
I think the easiest way to slow combat down for pvp is to give pod pilots more or improved resistance modules. That way you do not mess with the speed of pve combat (can still take out the hordes quickly).
Also, by increasing resistances, then you can begin implementing heat buildup problems, as resistance equals friction and heat. So lets say your ship has tons of resistance and barely anything can get through your defences or armor? Well over time the heat gets to be so much and your defences go down. so the guy with more resistances doesnt always win, it depends on heat sincs too. By using resistance modules to change the speed of combat, you do not mess with game mechanics , you just mess with module settings.
Resistance = more time it takes to break through your shield and armor, thus slowing combat down.
|
Motorcycle Emptiness
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 16:28:00 -
[38]
You could not cool a megawatt blasting, warp able spaceship via radiation, although the minnie Slasher appears to have large fins for this purpose. I imagine it would be done with some kind of coolant, which would then be circulated about a heat dissipating matrix, or in the case of heat overload, vented into space, either way in operation heat would build up as the coolant buffer was used up, and eventually your ship would have to power down or explode.
oh, and why do you think they put partial vacuums in flasks? :P space is a vacuum, and effectively a very good insulator to persistent heat generation.
Flashing White Box (rank 1) |
Ozzie Asrail
Exploited
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 17:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
That means it willb e soemthign setuped "In dock"? Or "in flight"?
Gotta be inflight for sure. Make it much more dynamic in small gangs with people dialing up either the gank or the tank depending on what ships they are engaging. -----
|
Asymptotic
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 17:50:00 -
[40]
*remembers the mechwarrior days when you alpha striked with a bajillion long-range lasers (none of the wimpy pulse stuff) and instantly overheated your mech*
Oh man. If EVE implemented an auto-shutdown mechanism for your ship when it overheated, I would be very amused.
pilot: "omg omg omg I'm primary time to gtfo" aura (in soothing voice): "shutting down." pilot: "wtflux noooooo-" *message drowned out by 15 exploding missiles*
On a more serious note, this heat business may actually work. I remember sliding controls in games like Wing Commander Prophecy, but I never really messed with them because I was too busy just trying to fly the ship. But with EVE's less-involved flying interface, this is less of a problem. I look forward to the mind games where people try to fake each other out as they adjust the power levels for their offensive/defensive modules accordingly.
|
|
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 18:18:00 -
[41]
Longer Combat = more time to blob. Its only gonna get worse. -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
Ifni
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 18:33:00 -
[42]
Buy the upcoming EON and find out!
You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough. |
Agillious
Gallente Inner Circle Helter-Skelter
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 18:39:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
I wonder, if Heat is used as a fitting req, if this will be the awesome NOS nerf that most of EVE seems to want?
I can see NOS weapons with massive heat values... or manageable heat values that compound as multiple modules are mounted. Amarr, with their experience with Lasers (and Heatsink 2s!!!!) will be the most proficient in heat management, ergo able to mount the most NOS. Other races will have to make do, or risk damaging the ship from high heat values. Or something along those lines.
Nice! I like it, except, there goes my dream of a flamethrower fitted thorax... I wanted to cook me some Drake-kabobs!!!
MORE SHINY, PLEASE!!!
|
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 20:47:00 -
[44]
Solo PvP lasts until the 800's run out doesn't it?
I thought cargo bay was THE balance feature.
Fleet PvP is the reason I don't hang out in the south no more. That really is a complete lack of fun unless your a kill-mail addict.
As has been said small gang combat is currently ftw.
|
Sessho Seki
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 22:50:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Sessho Seki on 02/04/2007 22:50:18 Before anyone misreads, misinterprets, or just generally chooses to make a fool of themselves, this is COMPLETELY rhetorical and not a suggestion in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
With the devs saying on numerous occasions that they have intended to make combat take longer, and yet the bulk of large combat in particular comes down to who has the most PWN in their trunk, it's clear to see the dev's efforts in making combat take longer have failed... miserably...
Now a logical extension of making combat take longer would be to simply un-nerf what has made combat go so quickly to begin with, the defense component of the equation.
If defense modules weren't stacking nerfed, then there is no question that much more survivable ships could be put into the field and the battles would unquestionably become longer.
The caveat of course is when fleets of such ships, each with a "God Tank" and ludicrous resists to everything shows up, and can tank a titan DDD like it's a pop-gun, I'm sure that wouldn't cause any controversy either. Because we all know there isn't even a single complaint about Titans, DDD's, and related PWNAGE... errr... yeah...
I'm in favor of longer combat, but how exactly CCP is going to accomplish this, in the light of OMGWTFPWN being the popular motis operandi for many, remains to be seen. With so much already set in motion for EVE, the solutions are basically one of three things, all of which will be HIGHLY controversial.
1: Nerf damage, CCP may as well cut their throats ahead of time if they even think that will ever fly. Even if CCP merely "stops boosting" where combat is going, players will be in an uproar, more damage is simply the carrot on a stick many players are kept chasing after, but sever that string and the stagnation of combat will quickly become a boiling cauldron of trouble that CCP couldn't help but be burned by.
2: Un-nerf tanking mechanics, some would like it, however it would likely also set much of the game to "easy mode" when a 10/10 complex while being attacked by a squadron of PvP gankers who tracked you down becomes "tedious". Combat would be lengthened, but at the cost of many combats ending simply with giving up. PvP would almost have to be redesigned around how to possibly get through some of the incredible tanks that would be possible should the leash(es) be set loose.
3: some combination of the two, so basically everyone would end up unhappy about the changes, or their half-hearted implementation, and the game would end up settling at a point much like now, only with larger numbers involved.
|
Humpalot
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 23:26:00 -
[46]
Sadly nerfing weapon damage and/or buffing ship defenses only encourages larger blobs. If you can instapop a ship today with (say) 5 ships then with said changes you'd need to bring 10 ships (or whatever) to achieve the same.
I want what you want but I am unsure of a good answer. With huge blobs calling primary on some poor sap I am not sure you could tweak damage/resists enough to make a difference anyway without breaking the game (small gangs would never be able to kill each other if you made it so someone could survive a 20 ship gank for more than a few moments).
To me you either really need a targetting stacking nerf (more people target the same ship the more the drawbacks). I know this is an unpopular idea among many but I do not know why. Would need balancing of course but the sweet spot should be out there somewhere.
That or make it so a ship has a maximum damage it can absorb in a given timeframe and further damage over that value diminishes. So, say you have it so the ship can take 500 DPS. Anything over that 500 DPS gets nerfed such that pouring in 600 DPS effectively only does 575 DPS. Pour in 1000 DPS and only 700 DPS gets through. Dump on 10,000 DPS and only 1000 DPS nails the target. Don't get hung up on the numbers...just an example and again would be a matter for balancing.
Just ideas for discussion and admittedly I have not thought them through very much but seem ok on the face of it.
|
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.04.02 23:50:00 -
[47]
I approve of this thread if only for the educational content.
But to also add something constructive re: lengthening combat: the other problem with lengthening combat is to lengthen it in a meaningful way. If I'm scrammed, orbiting and firing, but my tank is breaking faster then his, then there isn't too much point extending that period out to 5 or 10 minutes if there's nothing I can do or maneuver with to try and change that situation (other then hoping my corp 10 jumps away will get in and destroy the other guy).
|
Sieges
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 14:23:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Sieges on 12/04/2007 14:20:32
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
Yay, more fitting headache? Any benefits or just pain in the rear?
Probably just more fitting headaches. I know there are those who disagree with me. However, I do not want this heat idea implemented.
|
Andrue
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 15:04:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Andrue on 12/04/2007 15:02:48
Originally by: Humpalot
Originally by: Soporo Random thought: I read somewhere that vanes or fins get rid of heat pretty fast, look at a fan coil unit for instance, or a heat exchanger on a big RTU.
Absolutely. Just look at the heat sink in your computer...lots of metal fins. They work mostly via conduction to remove heat. Your processor heats up and transfers that heat to the heat sink. Your fan pushes air through the fins to grab the heat (also via conduction) and then get it out of the way. Air is not very good for conducting heat though which is why you need to push so much air through the heat sink to be effective and why they use fins as they greatly increase the surface area where air can get to the metal to grab some heat. Liquids are generally better at this hence liquid cooled systems are more efficient.
Your heat sink also gives away heat via radiation (if you had thermal goggles you could see it glowing) but this is hugely inefficient compared to conduction and your heat sink would have to be huge to dissipate enough heat in this fashion to be useful.
Convection comes in when the hot air leaves your computer. Convetion is a fluid thing (don't think liquid...air is considered a fluid for this too) and heat moves around your room balancing the hot spot by your computer with the cooler air around it.
and of course in the vacuum of space the only option is radiative dispersal. Heat build-up is a serious problem in a space ship but perversely it's because of that that the Apollo 13 astronauts had to sit in the cold after the explosion.
NASA engineers designed the ship so that its 'default' mode was to lose heat because it's always easier to generate it when you don't have it than get rid of it once you do have it. Unfortunately after the explosion there was no longer any way to generate heat and so the poor sods inside had to shiver. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
Please don't read this signature. |
mama guru
Gallente Friendship 7 Corporation YouWhat
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 15:07:00 -
[50]
I really hope heat wont gimp my amarr ships even more.
In fact, leave it for gods sake. no need to mess around with the game even more when there are tons of other things that need fixing -YOU ARE NOW READING MY SIGNATURE-
EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. Privatee |
|
JourneymanDave
devastation mining inc
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 15:24:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 02/04/2007 01:04:40
Maybe, but if they implemented it correctly, then in the above example, maybe he could put it all into tank and hope to hold out till the enemy HAS to lay off the guns due to heat, then gank back.
At least, I gather thats what the idea behind it all is, more tactical options basically. As is, most of your tactics occur BEFORE the combat happens. *snip*
Good point, and that would certainly improve the combat player experience, in my opinion. If I had the choice of tactically re-configuring for all-out gank and risking a module collapse for the chance to quickly overwhelm an opponent -OR- play my cards the opposite way and re-configure to try to outlast the opponents first assault and counter-punch, I believe that would make it significantly more appealing to the thinking pilot.
|
PostWithYourMain
Main Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 15:27:00 -
[52]
Omg piracy is going to die!
|
JourneymanDave
devastation mining inc
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 15:30:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Sieges Edited by: Sieges on 12/04/2007 14:20:32
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
Yay, more fitting headache? Any benefits or just pain in the rear?
Probably just more fitting headaches. I know there are those who disagree with me. However, I do not want this heat idea implemented.
Probably just the geek in me, but I personally quite enjoy all the fiddly little things involved in ship fitting. Heat would increase the numbers of possible fit permutations, and inevitably some won't pan out - but inevitably some will too. Besides fulfilling my own compulsive need for game depth, this will reward the pilots who are willing to learn more about how to take advantage of Heat. Fundamentally that can't be a bad thing. Seems like a fairly complex design element though, so like all things in Eve, it'll depend on the implementation.
|
Emolayshun
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 17:23:00 -
[54]
Why did you guys have to go and turn a deliciously nerdy argument on the chemistry and physics of heat back into a legit game discussion! :) By the way, some of you sound like you never took physics in college - heat is simply a measure of the rapidity with which atoms are vibrating/colliding with each other. That being said, heat sounds like another sweet game mechanic that could be used to help pilots further customize not only their ships but how they use their ships (I can just imagine charging in with a blasterthron and going "Damn the armor reps, ALL COOLING TO THE BLASTERS!!").
|
Pesadel0
Ordem dos Templarios Te-Ka
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 17:40:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ifni Buy the upcoming EON and find out!
So if we want to know about the new stuff we have to buy EON ?
Bummer
I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP. |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 17:44:00 -
[56]
I can see a whole new skill tree too:
Armor Heat Dissipation (Allows 5% heat transfer to another ship component, requires Armor Rep Systems 5) Propulsion Heat Dissipation (like above) ECM Heat Dissipation (like above)
Ad Infinitum
<-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
Asestorian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 17:59:00 -
[57]
Having read Ifni's EON article, I am going to reveal what it said, but in less words.
Heat will be the ability to push your modules beyond the manufacturer spec, just as if you were overclocking your computer for instance. There will be penalties for pushing too far, resulting in the damage or destruction of modules. All modules can be boosted in this way for a short while, however, Tech III is going to be released specifically for heat.
Tech III will have the same stats as Tech I or Tech II modules, but will be able to be pushed further with HeatÖ than what we already have. This may also apply to ships as well, but I can't remember exactly what the article said about that. It is also more designed for defensive modules than offensive modules, to help get out of a dodgy situation, but I don't think they were planning to stop weapon systems being overclocked.
That is roughly what it said in the article.
---
---
|
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 18:14:00 -
[58]
Thanks Asestorian, that adds a bit more info to the mix.
Unrelated: Was talking to a refrigeration guy at work and he said something that sounds completely crazy, just this..."you cant ever cool anything down, you can just remove heat." WTF.
|
Sieges
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 18:48:00 -
[59]
Just let Heat apply to Tech 3 ships/mods and above. Please leave the existing ships/mods alone. -- 2ó |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Elite
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 19:00:00 -
[60]
Something i bin mulling over for a while, after seeing this thread i thought i might aswell post my idea, its more on the shield/cap ballence sides of it, although some people may not see where heat is involved at all...
Ok, making it so you could modify the charge between shields and capacitor
The way it works You get a meter possable between your capacitor and shields readout, There is a marker marking what % you are charging between (Saying how much charge is gooing into shields/cap (default is 100%/100%) The maximum you can force shields and cap to charge is 150% and doing so will cause the other to go down to 50% charge. (So if your forcing cap to charge at 150% your shields would only charge at 50% and vice versa)
The penalty for keeping it at one state for some time, Overheating. if you keep it above 100/100 (101/99 and vice versa) depending by how much, you will gradually overheat, you will overheat faster when recharging one more than the other on a 150/50 ratio faster than 99/101....
Why would this be used ? Shield tankers on a passive settup could sacrifice cap charge for shield charge, and on active settups do the opposite. Armor tankers could sacrifice shield charge for more cap charge, (although modifying the cap charge when shields = 0 would result in the shields not attempting to recharge at all)
Factors that affect overheating Capacitor level (having lower than 20% cap and trying to recharge cap at 150%/50% will put strain on your cap charge systems, hence the higher risk of overheating) Shield level (Having less than 20% shields and trying to recharge your shields at 150%/50% ratio will put strain on your shield charge systems, hence higher chance to overheat) How long you have been at the ratio you are at (You will be unable to just set it to charge one more than the other constant, you would have to even things off back to 100/100 and have to wait for "Cooldown") failure to do so will force your systems to "overheat" and your cap charge AND shield charge would be nerfed, to about...60% of normal.
Penalties for overheating Your ship's chargers cannot cope with the stress, so it is reset to the nerfed 60/60, and would be locked for about 20 seconds, (this will increase by 5 seconds every time you overheat your ship, untill you dock, possably give a warning when undocking if you have not "repaired" the overheating damage)
Wait...Repaired? Yes, every time you overheat, your ship takes some structural damage, and some of your modules may recieve damage.
Skills that you could introduce?
Core modifications (Rank 3) Required skills - Energy Systems operation 4 - Shield Operation 4 Ability to modify the ships recharge core with less chance of overheating Bonus - -7.5% chance of overheating per level Cool-down Methods (Rank 3) Required skills - Core Modifications 4 Skill at manuvering the cooldown systems of your ship to reduice the time it takes to cool-down Bonus - -5% reduction in time to cool-down your ships core
As you see, i have put alot of thinking into it, if you think something is wrong, lemme know, always open to constructive critisism, even if most of it aint constructive ----------
|
|
Agent Li
Galactic Defence Consortium
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 19:07:00 -
[61]
If you want to make combat last longer, just recalibrate the way that damage is calculated. Instead of such a huge rise in damage from the smallest frigate guns to the largest weapons, make it less linear.
Right now, people brag about setups that will instantly blow up a lot of ships on the first volley. I think that should change - and they should turn BS battles into prolonged hour-long slugfests (even with two battleships pounding one), and raise the value of cruisers.
|
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 19:34:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Longer Combat = more time to blob. Its only gonna get worse.
Very true. First CCP needs to fix the whole 0.0 stuff. POS warfare, supercapitals, lag. It is already impossible to kill supercapitals without a huge blob. Large fleets are necessary to kill POS etc.
Longer battles? That will lead only to larger blobs (in 0.0) and increased lag.
At least make supercapitals unable to enter low sec empire space.
|
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 22:24:00 -
[63]
good idea xero
|
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Elite
|
Posted - 2007.04.12 22:51:00 -
[64]
Originally by: SiJira good idea xero
Ty, was thinking of advanced skills being somewhat along the lines of this
Structural Damage Compensation - Rank 4 - Req Hull upgrades 5 Skill at reducing damage taken by your ship's recharge systems overheating. -6% damage taken by overheating per level.
Capacitor Current Routing - Rank 3 - Req Core Modifications 4, Energy Management 4 Skill at prolonging your ability to put strain on your ships Capacitor recharge systems. 3% bonus to how long you can maintain a higher capacitor recharge rate without overheating.
Shield Current routing - Rank 3 - Req Core Modifications 4, Shield Management 4 Skill at prolonging your ability to put strain on your ships Shield recharge systems. 3% bonus to how long you can maintain a higher shield recharge rate without overheating.
Discuss ----------
|
Suitonia
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 00:21:00 -
[65]
I think I'll post my views here (ideas :P)
The way I see it, is that each module has HP, (they do presently if you look, which oddly enough, doesn't seem to decrease, well it hasn't for me ever anyway). Even when looting stuff that has been from destroyed ships etc. So, I think that modules should lose their HP as they are overheated, until they are eventually destroyed.
I think there should be a low slot module, (overheater I) or whatever, that when active, will increase all your modules stats by a set figure (10% for example), but begin to damage modules randomly when they are used. as the damage builds up, prehaps the cap usage for that module should build up too?
I.e. small shield extender, (recovers 20HP, in exchange of 20Cap per 2 seconds) when overheated would provide 22HP, (not a great deal of improvement, but beneficial none the less, and would slowly lose HP while it was activated with an overheater). Cap use slowly increases, same as the percentage of HP lost from the module. i.e. a small shield extender with 10/20hp, will now use up 30cap. Which means that it will provide a quick boost when needed, but persistant use will make it harded for the player's cap, or even destroy modules. i.e. You can shove your tank on overheat mode to try and escape the gankers, but if they keep you too long you're going to suffer for it, it also would make overheating uber 1337 modules expensive because of the repair bill :P, this method also means that overheating is done outside the docking station, and would allow for more 'tactics' during combat, i.e. the carebear is going to escape, so overclock and blast him, or overclock your 'burners to evade quicker if your the one getting ganked.
As for tech III modules, or heat modules, I think they should be the same as their tech I & tech II modules, but provide increased amounts of HP, therefore, they are made for overclocking, since the penalties won't be as steep for overclocking tech III modules. Extra modules such as 'heatsinks' would simply have a large amount of HP, and would 'tank' some of the module HP damage.
Overheating skills would be nice I guess, prehaps one that increases module HP/ Decreases HP reduced from overheating, or speciality skills that increase the overheat bonus in various area, i.e. shield overclocking, grants 2% overclock bonus per level.
my 0.02 isk.
|
sartorii
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 01:08:00 -
[66]
nice idea.. more actual 'tactical' options to Eve combat would certainly be more interesting..
however what is REALLY entertaining is those in this thread applying RL physics to Eve... when has that EVER mattered in the past?? and if we are going that direction how about starting with Firing arcs and Masking (500 ships in a blob CANT hit the same target) so that maneuver, position and formation actually matter??
then we can move on to inertia and maybe have an actual tactical game?? lol...
/me goes back to dreaming
"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic] |
VaderDSL
Caldari Incoherent Inc
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 01:57:00 -
[67]
Sig radius calculations in the number of hostiles able to lock a ship in my opinion would be a good start.
Say a battleship has a sig radius of 450 There is an enemy gang of 10 sniper megathrons each with two sensor boosters as they are at max range.
Each sniper with two sensor boosters activated will require an unused 75m signature radius to pinpoint the guns.
450/75 = 6
Out of the 10, the first 6 get a lock the remaining 4 due to lower skills are unable to lock the enemy battleship, so they then start firing on another target.
This brings into play the Caldari into PvP as they will have lower sig radius for their launchers, so more people able to target the enemy ships. But also means they have to think about their setups in that they can't simply bang lots of extenders on and shield power relays as the massive sig radius will let many more ships target it.
Logistics will be called into play as then cannot be instapopped by a fleet as only 1 or maybe 2 battleships will be able to lock it, and transversal will be a key factor for these ships (skill)
Target painters become a valid EW module again, allowing larger sig radius of enemy ships allwing more people to target them.
Mixed fleets are essential as smaller classes have much smaller sig radius use on their weapons, so a logistics ship will be fairly safe from snipers, but when 6 HAC's warp on it it is toast.
Fleets will have more time to maneuver and coordination will be the key.
CovOps/Stealthbomber can hunt down safe spot repair locations where logistics may wait to remote repair ships should they feel the need to stay out of sight, and will need their own counter cov ops force and protection of battlecruisers and HAC's.
Command ships will be able to go on the front line and use their warfare links, also many more opportunities for new warfare links.
BIG Lottery |
Mrsticks
Minmatar RNCGM Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 02:03:00 -
[68]
Here is a thought make things that don't use much cap, Minmatar Pea shooters/Missiles Generate much more heat than Lazar/Rails,blasters. And Nos should generate LOTS of heat as a balance. One should be manageable but 4-8 should be death to heat.
Long Live TEXAS! Texans join the Texas channel in game plz. Originally by: Jei'son Bladesmith -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dam |
Phrixus Zephyr
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 02:40:00 -
[69]
You what i think Heat will do for Eve?
. . .
...cause more lag. The new gang system anyone?
Originally by: Benglada And whos going to tackle for them? Jesus?
|
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 03:08:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: SiJira good idea xero
Ty, was thinking of advanced skills being somewhat along the lines of this
Structural Damage Compensation - Rank 4 - Req Hull upgrades 5 Skill at reducing damage taken by your ship's recharge systems overheating. -6% damage taken by overheating per level.
Capacitor Current Routing - Rank 3 - Req Core Modifications 4, Energy Management 4 Skill at prolonging your ability to put strain on your ships Capacitor recharge systems. 3% bonus to how long you can maintain a higher capacitor recharge rate without overheating.
Shield Current routing - Rank 3 - Req Core Modifications 4, Shield Management 4 Skill at prolonging your ability to put strain on your ships Shield recharge systems. 3% bonus to how long you can maintain a higher shield recharge rate without overheating.
Discuss
well other than saying great idea !
i have to say that if your weapons cause heat increase on enemy then this will be enough of a boost to amarr (biggest heat causing - even compared to missiles) to begin eve going in the right direction instead of the whiner direction !
|
|
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 05:04:00 -
[71]
Originally by: VaderDSL Sig radius calculations in the number of hostiles able to lock a ship in my opinion would be a good start.
Say a battleship has a sig radius of 450 There is an enemy gang of 10 sniper megathrons each with two sensor boosters as they are at max range.
Each sniper with two sensor boosters activated will require an unused 75m signature radius to pinpoint the guns.
450/75 = 6
Out of the 10, the first 6 get a lock the remaining 4 due to lower skills are unable to lock the enemy battleship, so they then start firing on another target.
This brings into play the Caldari into PvP as they will have lower sig radius for their launchers, so more people able to target the enemy ships. But also means they have to think about their setups in that they can't simply bang lots of extenders on and shield power relays as the massive sig radius will let many more ships target it.
Logistics will be called into play as then cannot be instapopped by a fleet as only 1 or maybe 2 battleships will be able to lock it, and transversal will be a key factor for these ships (skill)
Target painters become a valid EW module again, allowing larger sig radius of enemy ships allwing more people to target them.
Mixed fleets are essential as smaller classes have much smaller sig radius use on their weapons, so a logistics ship will be fairly safe from snipers, but when 6 HAC's warp on it it is toast.
Fleets will have more time to maneuver and coordination will be the key.
CovOps/Stealthbomber can hunt down safe spot repair locations where logistics may wait to remote repair ships should they feel the need to stay out of sight, and will need their own counter cov ops force and protection of battlecruisers and HAC's.
Command ships will be able to go on the front line and use their warfare links, also many more opportunities for new warfare links.
That is a great suggestion as well
could work !
|
Sharcy
Sonnema
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 10:51:00 -
[72]
Originally by: sartorii and if we are going that direction how about starting with Firing arcs and Masking (500 ships in a blob CANT hit the same target) so that maneuver, position and formation actually matter??
/SO signed. IRL, blob warefare the way it's happening in EVE wouldn't make sense. A ship blowing up would damage its surroundings. Ships firing when close together would risk hitting eachother. Bumping would damage both vessels (and destroy small ones). Solve this, and you'll see less big fleets.
--
|
Fookin Rats
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 11:50:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Soporo Thanks Asestorian, that adds a bit more info to the mix.
Unrelated: Was talking to a refrigeration guy at work and he said something that sounds completely crazy, just this..."you cant ever cool anything down, you can just remove heat." WTF.
Psuedo-intellectual alert. What he says is true, but anyone that isn't teaching a class involving thermodynamics is trying to inflate their e-peen.
|
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 16:01:00 -
[74]
Edited by: SiJira on 26/04/2007 15:58:11
Originally by: Sharcy
Originally by: sartorii and if we are going that direction how about starting with Firing arcs and Masking (500 ships in a blob CANT hit the same target) so that maneuver, position and formation actually matter??
/SO signed. IRL, blob warefare the way it's happening in EVE wouldn't make sense. A ship blowing up would damage its surroundings. Ships firing when close together would risk hitting eachother. Bumping would damage both vessels (and destroy small ones). Solve this, and you'll see less big fleets.
to make bumping cause damage would need a lot of code rewriting - station exit points - aggression timers in high sec
|
Gun Hog
Caldari Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 16:43:00 -
[75]
I know that someone, somewhere is going to get alpha-striked by 8 tachyon lasers set to max. I think heat would make fast fights faster, but would make fighting mega-tanked ships quite interesting. ------------------------------------------ The original ultra noob 0.0 carebear |
Black Seraph
RONA Deepspace
|
Posted - 2007.04.26 18:54:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Gun Hog I know that someone, somewhere is going to get alpha-striked by 8 tachyon lasers set to max. I think heat would make fast fights faster, but would make fighting mega-tanked ships quite interesting.
QFT.
Btw, I hope heat management is something done on the fly, I would hate if overloading modules and whatnot could only be accomplished on the fitting screen, it would completely remove the point. Hearing that its another PG/CPU/Calibration constraint makes me worry that CCP took this in the wrong direction.
http://www.geocities.com/microdave0/blackwhite.gif Limits for signatures are 400x120 pixels and 24,000 bytes. Please fix your signature. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip |
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 01:46:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Gun Hog I know that someone, somewhere is going to get alpha-striked by 8 tachyon lasers set to max. I think heat would make fast fights faster, but would make fighting mega-tanked ships quite interesting.
that just might make the attacking ship gank themselves !
|
Copine Callmeknau
The Splinter Syndicate R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 02:09:00 -
[78]
Please, combat is long enough. Increasing it further is giong to kill the last remnants of solo PvP. I just hope heat will allow me to supercharge my guns, double the damage mod on my 1400 II's? Yes please
-----
Originally by: Uncle Chop Chop Harden the **** up
|
k'ehana Atthour
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 02:16:00 -
[79]
What about drones, will heat affect them too?, i can see drones being left out as they will be a pain to implement?
|
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 15:06:00 -
[80]
Originally by: k'ehana Atthour What about drones, will heat affect them too?, i can see drones being left out as they will be a pain to implement?
if heat affects everything then why would drones be hard to implement ?
|
|
barvo
7th Space Cavalry Fallen Souls
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 15:47:00 -
[81]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: k'ehana Atthour What about drones, will heat affect them too?, i can see drones being left out as they will be a pain to implement?
if heat affects everything then why would drones be hard to implement ?
Off topic alert - but:
Because it seems to be so hard to make them work properly even without heat?
|
Gun Hog
Caldari Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 15:58:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Gun Hog on 27/04/2007 15:58:04 Edited by: Gun Hog on 27/04/2007 15:56:27 Edited by: Gun Hog on 27/04/2007 15:55:52 - I do not think heat would change anything on ships that have normal settings.
- It only makes sense that you would control your ship's heat on the fly. If you had to set it to max before leaving a station, you could end up disabling your weapons or blowing yourself up!
- Drones are probably too unique to impliment heat. Besides, managing multiple types of drones would mean different heat levels. It would be a pain to micro each of your drones AND your own ship. ------------------------------------------ The original ultra noob 0.0 carebear |
Crescens
Caldari Dark Tornado Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 16:10:00 -
[83]
Longer fights are bad. Smaller fights are good. Gank is more exciting than tank, but at the moment PVP is moving towards the latter.
|
Senbei Roshi
Temporal Heuristic Concepts
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 21:28:00 -
[84]
I have a fairly simple idea that would revolutionize combat as we know it... Make capacitors recharge like a capacitor... Right now, capacitors use some strange cosine function for the rate of recharge, which results in a "bell-like" curve, rather than the exponential one of true capacitor recharge. What this would mean to combat is it would become easier to sustain constant drain modules, but at a lower point in the capacitor's capacity. This may need to be offset by a small increase in module activation costs.
I have already crunched the numbers, and only needed to make one assumption as to how the ships operate, that being since a capacitor never truly reaches the level of the charging voltage, have the cap charge to 90% the charging voltage, with the other 10% of power reserved for the other ships' systems. Using the 90% charge point allows for the use of a constant value instead of relying on the actual charge voltage.
The formula for capacitor charge is:
Vc = V * 1 - e^( -T /( R * C ))
where Vc = Current Charge of Capacitor V = Charging Voltage e = exponential constant (~2.71828) T = Time to charge (from show info) R = Resistance C = True Capacitor Capacity
Transforming this formula around we see that:
R = T / C * ln( V /( V - Vc ))
and if Vc(max) is always 90% of V then ln( V /( V * 0.9 ))= 2.30259 leaving us with
R = T / ( C * 2.30259 )
If we make the assumption that the Capacitor value given in show info is 90% of the max charge of the capacitor, and use this derived max charge amount as both the charging voltage and the true capacitor capacity, we can derive a charge curve with only the pre-existing Capacitor and Charge Time values.
Vc(max) = Capacitor Capacity (from show info) C = Vc(max) / 0.9 t = current time (as if charging from 0)
The formula has now become:
Vc = C * ( 1 - e ^ ( -t / ( R * C ) ) )
The Maximum Energy stored and the time to recharge remains the same, only the curve has changed.
These results are for a Caracal, but the curves would be identical for ANY ship, only the values along it would change:
Charge Level over Time
Charge Rate
My apologies for the long post, but I hope it was educational at least.
Ignorance is Bliss And the Opposite is True Genius is Madness |
Templer Relleg
Exit 13 Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 21:33:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Senbei Roshi ALOT of cool stuff
You are too smart for your own good im afraid
|
Dr Felonius
Caldari Civilian Purposes Limited
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 22:59:00 -
[86]
It'd be cool if they buried a buff to Amarr in heat by making Amarr ships more resistant to heat-related malfunctions.
|
BABARR
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 23:02:00 -
[87]
The boost of HP is good, combat are longer, its good, but the agro timer on gate must be fixed ! it's too easy to tank and jump back/dock now.
|
Dorah Hawkwing
Chosen Path FATAL Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.04.27 23:59:00 -
[88]
Make the slider a pyramid, with the three points being : Weapons 8dmg), Tank, and Speed. Balance between all three is in the middle of the triangle, any shift towards a point weakens the other two, any shift towards a sides middle weapens one not and strenghtens the other two for not as much of an amount.
|
Nate D
New Atlantis Tek Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.04.28 03:16:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Senbei Roshi ???
Awesome stuff dude. I'm down for some realistic ****zle-nizzle.
-Nate
A New EVE Voice In Game Channel |
Benglada
Infinitus Odium
|
Posted - 2007.04.28 04:33:00 -
[90]
Uh, 2 rigged battleships with no implants cant break each others tank.. ---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos |
|
Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.04.28 07:25:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Soporo
Regardless, without knowing any more than I do, I am still certain I want SLOWER COMBAT. As is, its either ganker or gankee, and wtfpwned or wtfpwn the other guy, OR a long, long, boring, slow ass POS warfare kinda thing.
Combat in itself is plenty slow. The reason you see lopsided fights has little to do with the raw hitpoints - add more hitpoints to the affair, and you only really force more and harder ganking.
There are 2 basic things wrong - one is the range, particularly of long range guns and to a degree missiles. The other is permasnares and super-powerful, single-target EW with high range. Combine these two and you get fights that somewhat tend to slide to one side or another rapidly and targets that will still die rather fast regardless of base damage output.
All we've really done so far in this halfhearted attempt to keep everything lame about EvE but 'fix focusfire' is put more stops to smaller groups or soloers, lessening the impact of iniative and upping the importance of equipment, numbers and obviously capitals.
|
Kldraina
|
Posted - 2007.04.28 08:18:00 -
[92]
All I know about heat is this: if a ship is going to be allowed to burn itself to the ground fighting, Amarr and Minmatar ships should be the best at it. Amarr, because they refuse to retreat. Minmatar, because they often can't retreat (It's hard to defend a place and retreat at the same time).
Gallente and Caldari are too practical and self interested to stick around when defeat is inevitable. ---
Most players have no idea what makes a game good. |
Serge Tahlon
Gallente Templars of Space CORE.
|
Posted - 2007.04.28 09:19:00 -
[93]
the most annoying part of heat will be the introduction of new skills to accompany it.
if you started eve late or had an extended break you can never catch any way. heat will make you train 30-40 days again just to fly what you are currently flying.
if any thing to make combat last longer come up with a system that gives chars an equal chance. would love to see acctual skill involved instead of fitting rock paper scissors and skillpoint instawin. i doubt that heat will be the answer to this.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |