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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.01 22:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Soporo on 01/04/2007 22:56:17 Rev/Kali there was a lot of talk about trying to increase the time of actual combat.
I think two things came up in the Dev blogs concerning this attempt:
Hit Point boost and Heat.
As we all know the hp boost was less than wildly popular with Amar but Carrier pilots made out pretty well. The HP boost, regardless of what anyone thinks of it, is a done deal.
Heat is left, and from what I gather, the concept revolves around Ships generating enormous amounts of heat which must be either dispersed or re-routed, else module/ship damage may occur.
It was mentioned that pilots would have the potential to adjust or re-route said heat to affect certain modules for good or ill. ie: draining heat from the shield modules would improve shield performance, at the expense of whatever module you routed the excess heat to, say the armor or weapons. It can be assumed there will be new modules created, specifically for this new deal. It is also assumed that some people will cry doom and gloom, and OMG PIRACY IS DEAD threads all over the place, but thats neither here nor there.
I havent heard anything in a while about this, is it still on the burner but pre-empted by the NFS initiative? Does anyone know any more info about it?
Also, if the idea is to increase combat time, what other ideas could be implemented? Someone once said that total overall general damage needs a nerf, which would improve combat time, but things like POS warfare, which already sickeningly boring ass, would suffer. It could be argued that the Heat (and HP boost) implementation is an indirect damage nerf.
A recent idea (that I liked a lot) was to implement purchaseable crews or varying levels of effectiveness, which would give a %boost to certain ship operations/modules. If these boosts were kept to strictly defensive things, like shields/armor/resists, it might certainly help.
Regardless, without knowing any more than I do, I am still certain I want SLOWER COMBAT. As is, its either ganker or gankee, and wtfpwned or wtfpwn the other guy, OR a long, long, boring, slow ass POS warfare kinda thing.
The fights that occur between these two extremes seem few and far between, a happy middle ground would be welcome, imo.
(I have fought in Fleet ops, big and small blobs, seen POS warfare, 0.0 ops, Empire gank and Empire 'Dec fighting. The only lack of experience I have is in much LowSec fighting, as frankly, LowSec just sucks in rewards, and Stations, and Services, and...well nm.)
Soooo, to make a long story short, what do you think?
Longer combat = good? or Longer combat = da debil!
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Trina Polaris
Pwny Express
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Posted - 2007.04.01 23:05:00 -
[2]
Oh yeah lets screw up solo PvP even more.
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Deckard Bishop
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.04.01 23:06:00 -
[3]
heat will be discussed in the next issue of E:ON which you can read about here
Originally by: TURNING UP THE HEAT(E:ON Iss.7)
"She can'nae take no more!" is a cry many have heard from a certain brusque faux-Scots engineer over the years, and it's one you may be screaming at your monitor when CCP introduces module overclocking, or rather, Heat. EVE TV's Ifni chats with Tuxford and Hammerhead on how combat might be affected and what the future course is for Tech III and, perhaps, beyond."
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.01 23:26:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Soporo on 01/04/2007 23:25:47 Ahh sweet, thanks. Errr, not buying EON, so I guess I will just have to wait till it hits a blog.
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.04.02 00:04:00 -
[5]
I wholeheartedly agree and wish for longer combat (not counting the POS deal). The last few times I got cuaght by a gate camp I doubt the whole thing lasted a minute if that (and my ships were suitably fitted with tanks). Pretty much if they scram you and web you it is all over. All I ever do is run for the gate in those cases because to aggress would lock me out and as a solo ship I am highly unlikely to pop anything in that same timeframe. If more time were involved then I might have a go at trying to nail the tacklers (or whatever).
As a pilot who flies mostly Amarr ships the whole heat thing scares me in a fundamental way (lasers and heat kinda go together). I am sure the devs would balance it so it affected everyone in a similar fashion...just a knee jerk reaction. That said I see heat as helping blobs and nerfing smaller groups. Presumably heat would build up with use. If you can gank your target in 30 seconds why care about heat? Just lay it all in to the gank and you are done. However, for the guy trying to survive against 5 ships he'll be managing reppers and guns all going full bore and heat will kill him. Again makes the best option to just try and run. Of course I have NO idea how CCP is seeing this yet...just my imaginings.
I have heard of people proposing stacking nerf to having multiple ships target a single ship. Personally it sounds good to me but I know a few posters whose opinions I have come to respect on this forum say it is a bad idea (without elaborating). I have not seen those discussions but to my mind it could be balanced so you wouldn;t hurt small groups but break up massive blob focus fire. If anyone can point me to a thread talking about this I would love to see it (tried the near worthless search for it...no joy).
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Mortimer Phinn
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Posted - 2007.04.02 00:30:00 -
[6]
I think this could be pretty cool if implemented properly as a main complaint is fighting is hitting F1-F8 and then hoping you win.
I'd love to see a control with sliders somewhat like a equalizer, one for each of the main systems. Having the slider in the middle is like right now, but you could slide the weapons to positive to increase damage but would have to reduce one other system to maintain balance. Start getting overwhelmed in a fight, so you slide the shields/armor up and reduce speed or something else for balance. Could really be fun.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.02 00:44:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Soporo on 02/04/2007 00:41:50
Quote: Presumably heat would build up with use. If you can gank your target in 30 seconds why care about heat? Just lay it all in to the gank and you are done. However, for the guy trying to survive against 5 ships he'll be managing reppers and guns all going full bore and heat will kill him.
Maybe, but if they implemented it correctly, then in the above example, maybe he could put it all into tank and hope to hold out till the enemy HAS to lay off the guns due to heat, then gank back.
At least, I gather thats what the idea behind it all is, more tactical options basically. As is, most of your tactics occur BEFORE the combat happens. Barring a bit of ranging and optimal, transversal, and whatnot.
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Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2007.04.02 01:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 02/04/2007 01:04:40
Quote: Presumably heat would build up with use. If you can gank your target in 30 seconds why care about heat? Just lay it all in to the gank and you are done. However, for the guy trying to survive against 5 ships he'll be managing reppers and guns all going full bore and heat will kill him.
Maybe, but if they implemented it correctly, then in the above example, maybe he could put it all into tank and hope to hold out till the enemy HAS to lay off the guns due to heat, then gank back.
At least, I gather thats what the idea behind it all is, more tactical options basically. As is, most of your tactics occur BEFORE the combat happens. Barring a bit of ranging and optimal, transversal, and whatnot.
Anyway, I dont know if a gatecamp would be a good example, basically, if you hit one solo unknowing, your prolly gonna die. (unless shuttle, or inty or mwd/nano fast frig etc)
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Nicholas Barker
Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.04.02 01:24:00 -
[9]
hp increase slow down pvp, heat speeds up. omg -------------------------------------
Am Orbitin' ur shi... i said orbit... ORBIT... no don't fly off in that direction |
VJ Maverick
Caldari Maverick Specialized Services
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Posted - 2007.04.02 02:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
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Erdain
Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.04.02 05:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
can't argue with that :)
Then again any type of energy can create heat..
One Race To Rule Them All:
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Viliny
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.04.02 05:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
You put hot cocoa in a thermal right?
You would imagine heat wouldn't be a problem in space where you can easily use the... what -280 (?) celsius of space to cool down stuff?
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Laramon Questor
Minmatar Knights of the Silver Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.02 06:03:00 -
[13]
What they meant was that instead of doing x/x EM/Therm dmg, it would add in a 3rd component of lasers, heat. Yes, it seems redundant to say Thermal and Heat damage, but they chose the names not me. The heat damage could be split up across all systems, like say if it did "1 heat damage" that would mean that it adds 1 heat point to all systems that would have to be siphoned off or cause problems.
I was against this just hearing little bits before, but now I'm a little excited.
Even after failure, there can be redemption.
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Kryptman Felstorm
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.04.02 06:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Viliny
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
You put hot cocoa in a thermal right?
You would imagine heat wouldn't be a problem in space where you can easily use the... what -280 (?) celsius of space to cool down stuff?
Hijack warning.
Actually it's the stuff in space that's that cold (on average) and there isn't enough of it to reliably carry heat away (vacuum). All heat must be radiated away which can be difficult to do as it relies on pieces of metal or alloy with a large surface area that is not being bombarded with radiation.
Just for clarification: Space isn't cold, just the stuff in it is and there isn't a whole lot of it.
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Ifni
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.04.02 06:29:00 -
[15]
Heat is not a third damage type for lasers
You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough. |
Na'Thuul
Caldari Suffoco Noctis Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2007.04.02 06:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Deckard Bishop heat will be discussed in the next issue of E:ON which you can read about here
Originally by: TURNING UP THE HEAT(E:ON Iss.7)
"She can'nae take no more!" is a cry many have heard from a certain brusque faux-Scots engineer over the years, and it's one you may be screaming at your monitor when CCP introduces module overclocking, or rather, Heat. EVE TV's Ifni chats with Tuxford and Hammerhead on how combat might be affected and what the future course is for Tech III and, perhaps, beyond."
What about us second-rate players who doesn't buy E:ON? --- Do not edit moderator messages -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.02 06:49:00 -
[17]
From previous dev statements ( if still accurate ) : heat is what you get when you push modules above their normal operating specs.
Want more than 100% damage output of your blasters ? Fine but you pays for it. Ditto shield booster output etc.
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Lilan Kahn
Amarr The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2007.04.02 07:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ifni Heat is not a third damage type for lasers
yes it is i whant to cook eges with it before they leave the ship mmm pirateing hole ships mmmm
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Lygos
Finis Actum
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Posted - 2007.04.02 07:49:00 -
[19]
This is the hot and sweaty, overweight, and slightly dazed version of eve we are talking about.
EVE: The Saccharine Nemesis
--- T2 Risk | Corp Divisions |
Ifni
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.04.02 07:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Max Hardcase From previous dev statements ( if still accurate ) : heat is what you get when you push modules above their normal operating specs.
Want more than 100% damage output of your blasters ? Fine but you pays for it. Ditto shield booster output etc.
You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough. |
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Viliny
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.04.02 09:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kryptman Felstorm
Originally by: Viliny
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
Uh uh heat = 3rd dmg type on lazzors now i can truly make infidels burn !
You already have "heat" as a damage type on lazzors. What do you think "thermal" means?
You put hot cocoa in a thermal right?
You would imagine heat wouldn't be a problem in space where you can easily use the... what -280 (?) celsius of space to cool down stuff?
Hijack warning.
Actually it's the stuff in space that's that cold (on average) and there isn't enough of it to reliably carry heat away (vacuum). All heat must be radiated away which can be difficult to do as it relies on pieces of metal or alloy with a large surface area that is not being bombarded with radiation.
Just for clarification: Space isn't cold, just the stuff in it is and there isn't a whole lot of it.
So what your meaning to say is, without air the heat can't transfer to other substances?
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.04.02 10:28:00 -
[22]
'Heat' is infrared radiation. Infrared radiation can travel through space as photons without the need for any conductive medium. Therefore you can radiate heat/energy just fine without having to have any matter to conduct it to.
Therefore: a vacuum is near absolute zero due to the lack of anything in it: matter or radiation. Radation from a ship would radiate into the vacuum, trying to equalize the amount of energy in all systems. So yes, radiation would spontaniously radiate from a ship, cooling it down just fine.
The problem is when you're near a star (the sun for instance) and you get a face full of it's radiation with no shielding (the atmosphere for instance).
Because I said so...
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William Hamilton
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Posted - 2007.04.02 11:06:00 -
[23]
^aye, but radiation is still an extremely innefective way to dispel heat....
As for talking about putting all energy into guns for an ultra-gank setup, hopefully heat will be tied in with module damage (something else CCP wants to implement) and so the guy with the gank setup better hope his enemy dies before his guns burn out, this is just blind speculation of course, but it would be neat (reminds me of "High Noon" in Freespace 2)
And just to go of on a totally wild tangent and probably derail the thread, it seems "thermal" damage in EvE is a better anolouge to simply "energy transfer", this includes kinetic energy. The "kinetic" damage type seems to refer better to structural stress. "explosive" refers to momentum as the game's guide says, and "EM" seems to be "Anything Sci-Fi".
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insulubria
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Posted - 2007.04.02 11:16:00 -
[24]
Slowing down PVP or PVE even in any way is just lame however...
IF Heat Doesnt exist on a ship you dont "overclock" then thats pefectly fine.
now the fact you can O/C weapons OR Sb/Reppers would be awsome.
2200 boost for 360energy every 2.1x seconds on my raven just isnt enough!
This could be very good or very tacky, It depends how its impliemented.
Rigs turned out pretty good imho, I can only hope this overclocking can happen to a fitted module itself and not take away from our rig slots and module slots.
Or it would be letting us do less in the end and be counter intuitive.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.04.02 11:54:00 -
[25]
The only way to achieve that is makign battles happen in small scale. Get rid of blobs. Focus in small gangs.
5vs 5 battes is where the fun is.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Ashaz
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Posted - 2007.04.02 12:27:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Viliny You would imagine heat wouldn't be a problem in space where you can easily use the... what -280 (?) celsius of space to cool down stuff?[/quote
achtually no. since you're floating around in a vacuum, getting rid of heat will be a huge problem.
afaik the astronauts found this out quite quickly.
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.04.02 13:52:00 -
[27]
Originally by: murder one The problem is when you're near a star (the sun for instance) and you get a face full of it's radiation with no shielding (the atmosphere for instance).
Actually even if you are in the deepest space with no star nearby dumping off excess heat in space is rather difficult. There are three ways to get rid of heat: conduction, convection and radiation. Of the three radiation is the least efficient at it.
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Cougem
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.02 13:53:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Cougem on 02/04/2007 13:50:53 Edited by: Cougem on 02/04/2007 13:50:01
Originally by: murder one 'Heat' is infrared radiation. Infrared radiation can travel through space as photons without the need for any conductive medium. Therefore you can radiate heat/energy just fine without having to have any matter to conduct it to.
Therefore: a vacuum is near absolute zero due to the lack of anything in it: matter or radiation. Radation from a ship would radiate into the vacuum, trying to equalize the amount of energy in all systems. So yes, radiation would spontaniously radiate from a ship, cooling it down just fine.
The problem is when you're near a star (the sun for instance) and you get a face full of it's radiation with no shielding (the atmosphere for instance).
Heat isn't 'just' infrared radiation. For starters, all forms of nonionising radiation can carry heat, there's nothing special about infrared. The reason many people think infrared is special is because objects that are of temperatures we're used to 0-100-ish emit photons in the infrared range of the spectrum. Hotter objects like the sun emit photons of shorter wavelength - the white light of the sun carries heat in the same manner, and in fact these photons gives more energy. Our over-heating modules on our ships may well be red hot, like a spaceship on re-entry - guess what, that's heat radiation, and a lot of it isn't infrared because we can see it!
Also, saying just because you can radiate in space meansd you should be cool is crap - yes it's one way of dissipating the heat, but no chance in hell it'd be good enough. If you put a red hot brick in a dark cupboard for a minute and opened it a minute later it'd still be bloody hot. Conduction/convection is far better a means of dissipating heat on that sort of level than radiation.
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Cougem
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.02 13:58:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Cougem on 02/04/2007 14:04:21 Oh, and heat isn't just nonionising radiation either. A particle doesn't need to emit photons to transfer heat. Heat is merely kinetic energy on a particle level - these particles can absorb photons and, in the case of electrons, move to higher energy state, or atoms, vibrate more quickly. However, this is not the only way to transfer heat - if I touch a hot kettle it is direct transfer of heat by massful particles, usually, that makes me feel hot, rather than photoemission.
Oh and let's pretend the cupboard in the previous post is infinitely large for you pedants ;)
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.04.02 15:25:00 -
[30]
Exactly how heat will work is still being discussed, but the main idea with heat is to add another way to balance how you equip your ship, similar to what you currently do with CPU and powergrid.
Wrangler Assistant Community Manager EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
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