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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
5575
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Posted - 2015.04.13 15:42:40 -
[1] - Quote
Team Security comes with an interesting recap from Fanfest 2015. Don't wait any longer and learn more about Team Security, about bans, security awareness, and black market ISK!
Check out CCP Peligro's latest dev blog A quick update from Team Security - Recap from Fanfest 2015.
CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer - Volunteer Manager
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Cristl
221
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Posted - 2015.04.13 15:53:25 -
[2] - Quote
Book 'em Danno, murder one. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3293
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:09:26 -
[3] - Quote
What is the penalty for hiding accounts? That is, someone hides which accounts are theirs, so if they get a 7 day ban, it will not be on all their accounts?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
14246
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:28:50 -
[4] - Quote
Keep up the great work!
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
275
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:32:34 -
[5] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:What is the penalty for hiding accounts? That is, someone hides which accounts are theirs, so if they get a 7 day ban, it will not be on all their accounts?
That depends, as there are different ways of "hiding your accounts" - some include client modification, which will get you permanently banned on first offense.
It's not possible to "launder" or otherwise transfer assets from one account to another, without leaving a trail of logs, which we can use to figure out who is benefiting from such EULA/TOS infringing activities. Most of our detection capabilities comes from server-side log analysis.
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
275
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:33:04 -
[6] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Keep up the great work!
Yaay thanks Chribba! Hej Hej hall+Ñ!
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
285
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:35:32 -
[7] - Quote
Please do a Tears of the Multi-boxer youtube video
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3294
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:41:20 -
[8] - Quote
I'm concerned by the entire Awareness effort. The client has banners telling players they can buy PLEX, and resell for ISK. That's good. But nowhere is there a banner telling them what happens if they buy their ISK from a black market site. Nor is there any banners involving Awareness when it comes to botting, broadcasting or client modification.
Why not?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers Soviet-Union
363
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:48:56 -
[9] - Quote
Can someone from CCP please answer the following?
I 1st posted this in the input duplication thread, with no response....
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5605658#post5605658
--
Can someone from CCP please clarify what Team Security presented during Fanfest?
VFX / Rollover Questions
They seem to say its "client modification" if you put VFX inside your client window. Then state to "read the EULA" and that these programs modify the client.
CCP's Example of a modified Client
That is of course false, since your just using built in Window DWM / AERO features (the same thing you see when you hold alt-tab). This is a built in windows feature that you could implement on your PC without using tools like ISBoxer, which just makes it easier.
In fact CCP is helping development one now.
If I use the CCP endorsed DWM tool, which modifies how the game client is presented, am I not in the same violation?
EVE-O preview - multi-client preview
That program is EASILY following the same pathway that ISBoxer uses to modify clients for easier window management, it could VERY QUICKLY turn into the same exact feature set (would that be falling into some kind of copyright infringement, CCP?)
However since they are seemingly intent on calling Windows Features "client modification", using VFX and Rollover OUTSIDE the client cant be considered client modification.
So if I use VFX, Clickbars, round-robin etc OUTSIDE the client window, I am not modifying the client in anyway, so therefor I am not in violation if I am using CCP's strict interperation of the rules.
This is an example of a dxnothing window that DOES NOT in anyway put anything inside the EVE Client Window. This MUST be within the EULA based on CCP's presentation. (Before anyone harps the "3rd party tool for an advantage to the average player" garbage, 1st defend the CCP endorsed EVE-O Preview tool, Evernus, Elinor, EVEHQ and many other 3rd party programs that give you an advantage over others).
Rollover / Keymapping Specific Question
Assuming that using Rollover buttons OUTSIDE of the client is ok, since im not "modifying the client", then what is the issue? Am I not allowed to send a "left mouse button click" when I move my mouse?
In Team Security's presentation they stated you CAN use Touch Screens. Ok, can I use a Touch Screen to activate a bunch of modules in a row (like all of my low slots)? Is using Touch Screens ok but using Rollover's not ok?
What about just re-mapping the keys from my clients onto my keyboard or another input device?
Are we allowed to make key remaps? Can I remap F1 on Client #2 to F2 instead?
If I get a Xkey 80 and assign each button, I could easily use bombers almost as effeicently as using Rollover or Input Duplication... Is this allowed? Its certainty not a macro, just a key remap? How would CCP know the difference though? I can hit 16 + buttons in a second using my fingers, what if i just took my fist and smashed all the keys?
There is a simple solution to all of this vagueness
If you dont want to name features directly then draw a line
" you cannot send more then x commands to your clients in x seconds."
Simple, easy to follow, no confusion. Something like that would be completely feature agnostic.
This current vagueness is complete garbage.
I and others have outlined questions and concerns at Dual-boxing.com
http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/52086-Team-Security-EVE-Fanfest-presentation-1500-GMT-on-Saturday-March-21st?p=397319&viewfull=1#post397319
Legacy - An EVE Online Blog
Legacy of a Capsuleer Podcast
EVEServers.info - One stop API Solution for Corps/Alliances
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Linkoman
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
9
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Posted - 2015.04.13 16:59:18 -
[10] - Quote
Any more details about 2FA yet? |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
275
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:07:32 -
[11] - Quote
Linkoman wrote:Any more details about 2FA yet?
No 2FA updates from me right now, but it's coming! It's a big topic and we'll have a dev blog about 2FA in the foreseeable future.
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
825
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:10:17 -
[12] - Quote
Can CCP comment on the situation evolving with their endorsement of a third party program that violates 6A2? Can CCP comment on the 5-boxer who was banned whilst not using any form of broadcasting? Can CCP comment on the fact that Falcon still has not come to the table for the previously-agreed-upon meeting? Can CCP comment on the fact that this was pushed by a CSM member who most likely lied about the situation regarding his loss of a Battleship fleet that was AFK on a planet? And finally, can CCP comment on the fact that NOBODY anywhere has yet to give a logical reason why this change was enacted? |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1043
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:20:55 -
[13] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Can CCP comment on the situation evolving with their endorsement of a third party program that violates 6A2? Can CCP comment on the 5-boxer who was banned whilst not using any form of broadcasting? Can CCP comment on the fact that Falcon still has not come to the table for the previously-agreed-upon meeting? Can CCP comment on the fact that this was pushed by a CSM member who most likely lied about the situation regarding his loss of a Battleship fleet that was AFK on a planet? And finally, can CCP comment on the fact that NOBODY anywhere has yet to give a logical reason why this change was enacted? the reasons why input broadcasting was banned were clearly explained
don't whine that nobody has given a reason when your actual complaint is you don't agree with the reason |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
825
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:21:53 -
[14] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Can CCP comment on the situation evolving with their endorsement of a third party program that violates 6A2? Can CCP comment on the 5-boxer who was banned whilst not using any form of broadcasting? Can CCP comment on the fact that Falcon still has not come to the table for the previously-agreed-upon meeting? Can CCP comment on the fact that this was pushed by a CSM member who most likely lied about the situation regarding his loss of a Battleship fleet that was AFK on a planet? And finally, can CCP comment on the fact that NOBODY anywhere has yet to give a logical reason why this change was enacted? the reasons why input broadcasting was banned were clearly explained don't whine that nobody has given a reason when your actual complaint is you don't agree with the reason If by "clearly explained" you mean "We kinda thought it was a AFK bot despite all evidence to the contrary, so we banned it after a CSM member QQ'd loud enough" then sure, it was explained. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1716
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:25:32 -
[15] - Quote
Are their particular players you keep an eye on? Outside of the CSM that is.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
275
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:30:28 -
[16] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Are their particular players you keep an eye on? Outside of the CSM that is.
Yes, everybody, and especially you!
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1716
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Posted - 2015.04.13 17:38:02 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Aryth wrote:Are their particular players you keep an eye on? Outside of the CSM that is. Yes, everybody, and especially you!
Well, we tend to behave as though we are watched 24/7 now anyway! Glad to see my paranoia is deserved!
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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Aegon the Dragonbane
Taking it for Granite
4
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Posted - 2015.04.13 18:16:30 -
[18] - Quote
Does this count as Isk purchasing? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5325
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Posted - 2015.04.13 18:16:37 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:What is the penalty for hiding accounts? That is, someone hides which accounts are theirs, so if they get a 7 day ban, it will not be on all their accounts? That depends, as there are different ways of "hiding your accounts" - some include client modification, which will get you permanently banned on first offense. It's not possible to "launder" or otherwise transfer assets from one account to another, without leaving a trail of logs, which we can use to figure out who is benefiting from such EULA/TOS infringing activities. Most of our detection capabilities comes from server-side log analysis. Challenge accepted.
1. Create corp. 2. Invite loads of people to corp, including at some point your alt. 3. Encourage people to pool resources. 4. Pool resources into a nice handy wallet and office you have unrestricted access to. 5. Loot corp and disband.
Unless of course the isk was sources illegally in the first place, in which case it'll still get removed. Which come to think of it leaves open a big area for some pretty bad shenanigans.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1043
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Posted - 2015.04.13 19:52:29 -
[20] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote: And finally, can CCP comment on the fact that NOBODY anywhere has yet to give a logical reason why this change was enacted?
the reasons why input broadcasting was banned were clearly explained don't whine that nobody has given a reason when your actual complaint is you don't agree with the reason If by "clearly explained" you mean "We kinda thought it was a AFK bot despite all evidence to the contrary, so we banned it after a CSM member QQ'd loud enough" then sure, it was explained. you whined a change was not clearly explained, not a ban, see above |
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Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
826
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Posted - 2015.04.13 19:58:12 -
[21] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:EvilweaselSA wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote: And finally, can CCP comment on the fact that NOBODY anywhere has yet to give a logical reason why this change was enacted?
the reasons why input broadcasting was banned were clearly explained don't whine that nobody has given a reason when your actual complaint is you don't agree with the reason If by "clearly explained" you mean "We kinda thought it was a AFK bot despite all evidence to the contrary, so we banned it after a CSM member QQ'd loud enough" then sure, it was explained. you whined a change was not clearly explained, not a ban, see above It wasn't explained period.The change led to bans. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
585
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Posted - 2015.04.13 19:58:59 -
[22] - Quote
These rules should also apply to players using market bots to monitor and update orders, right?
I ask this question for specific clarifcation, only because I have reported a few rather obvous market bots in the recent past, and yet no serious action appeared to be taken against them - perhaps they were given a warning, but certainly they were never hit with any temp ban, and are still operating. |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
281
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Posted - 2015.04.13 20:14:59 -
[23] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:These rules should also apply to players using market bots to monitor and update orders, right?
I ask this question for specific clarifcation, only because I have reported a few rather obvous market bots in the recent past, and yet no serious action appeared to be taken against them - perhaps they were given a warning, but certainly they were never hit with any temp ban, and are still operating.
Yes, the botting rules apply, specifically 6.A.2 and 6.A.3 from the EULA: https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-eula/
I understand that it is frustrating when it feels as if your reports are ignored; I can assure you that this is not the case. We do need to have server-side evidence which verifies wrongdoing on our end, before we can take action. We will never ban anyone based solely on reports, but reports can prompt an investigation and lead to action.
We also have some improvements for the reporting tools and procedures on the ever-growing "to-do" list, will keep you posted on that.
For now, please keep it up with the reports, we do appreciate them, even if there are many - with varying degrees of accuracy...
PS: The Nosy Gamer's section in our talk touches on this topic ever so slightly; he mentions that bots are afraid of player reports and tend to try to operate without getting noticed. Go ahead and ruin their day by reporting them to CCP!
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
281
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Posted - 2015.04.13 20:23:51 -
[24] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Can someone from CCP please answer the following? I 1st posted this in the input duplication thread, with no response.... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5605658#post5605658 -- Can someone from CCP please clarify what Team Security presented during Fanfest? VFX / Rollover Questions They seem to say its "client modification" if you put VFX inside your client window. Then state to "read the EULA" and that these programs modify the client. CCP's Example of a modified ClientThat is of course false, since your just using built in Window DWM / AERO features (the same thing you see when you hold alt-tab). This is a built in windows feature that you could implement on your PC without using tools like ISBoxer, which just makes it easier. In fact CCP is helping development one now. If I use the CCP endorsed DWM tool, which modifies how the game client is presented, am I not in the same violation? EVE-O preview - multi-client previewThat program is EASILY following the same pathway that ISBoxer uses to modify clients for easier window management, it could VERY QUICKLY turn into the same exact feature set (would that be falling into some kind of copyright infringement, CCP?) However since they are seemingly intent on calling Windows Features "client modification", using VFX and Rollover OUTSIDE the client cant be considered client modification. So if I use VFX, Clickbars, round-robin etc OUTSIDE the client window, I am not modifying the client in anyway, so therefor I am not in violation if I am using CCP's strict interperation of the rules. This is an example of a dxnothing window that DOES NOT in anyway put anything inside the EVE Client Window. This MUST be within the EULA based on CCP's presentation. (Before anyone harps the "3rd party tool for an advantage to the average player" garbage, 1st defend the CCP endorsed EVE-O Preview tool, Evernus, Elinor, EVEHQ and many other 3rd party programs that give you an advantage over others). Rollover / Keymapping Specific Question Assuming that using Rollover buttons OUTSIDE of the client is ok, since im not "modifying the client", then what is the issue? Am I not allowed to send a "left mouse button click" when I move my mouse? In Team Security's presentation they stated you CAN use Touch Screens. Ok, can I use a Touch Screen to activate a bunch of modules in a row (like all of my low slots)? Is using Touch Screens ok but using Rollover's not ok? What about just re-mapping the keys from my clients onto my keyboard or another input device? Are we allowed to make key remaps? Can I remap F1 on Client #2 to F2 instead? If I get a Xkey 80 and assign each button, I could easily use bombers almost as effeicently as using Rollover or Input Duplication... Is this allowed? Its certainty not a macro, just a key remap? How would CCP know the difference though? I can hit 16 + buttons in a second using my fingers, what if i just took my fist and smashed all the keys? There is a simple solution to all of this vagueness If you dont want to name features directly then draw a line " you cannot send more then x commands to your clients in x seconds." Simple, easy to follow, no confusion. Something like that would be completely feature agnostic. This current vagueness is complete garbage. I and others have outlined questions and concerns at Dual-boxing.comhttp://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/52086-Team-Security-EVE-Fanfest-presentation-1500-GMT-on-Saturday-March-21st?p=397319&viewfull=1#post397319
We can regrettably not sanction or otherwise authorize the use of specific third party programs or setups. We hope you understand that we can not realistically do so given the multitude of programs, use cases and user setups that can emerge. There is also the fact that CCP has no direct control over the development of programs created by third parties; a program which complies with the EVE EULA today may be updated tomorrow with a feature which violates the EVE EULA. We can therefore not make any direct statement concerning your inquiry in particular.
In short, we do not provide support beyond that listed in our official policies and public statements on the matter. Use of any third party tools is done entirely at the risk of the user and we can not publish a comprehensive list of allowed and prohibited configurations.
We can point you to the following resources and statements on the use of third party programs. We hope these resources prove helpful to you in determining if what you want to do is permitted by the EULA or not:
Third party policies - http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/ CCP Peligro - Team Security
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ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers Soviet-Union
364
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Posted - 2015.04.13 20:54:08 -
[25] - Quote
Sigh... Peligro there are many questions in that post you can easily answer, like if I can make key-remaps, can I use a touch screen to activate modules or is using video fx out of the client considered "client modification".
I cannot wrap my head around everytime you guys respond it's "read the EULA". The EULA doesn't answer this question and you guys refuse to clarify.
Legacy - An EVE Online Blog
Legacy of a Capsuleer Podcast
EVEServers.info - One stop API Solution for Corps/Alliances
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Lea De Dijon
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:02:07 -
[26] - Quote
Hi,
I have seen the video on youtube about your attempts to prevent botting and account hacking. a lot of emphasis seems to be on specific ip addresses. you are aware that many ISP, especially in rural areas have a shared ip address for the majority of their customers ? i am network engineer for one of those ISP and i know for sure there are other eve players on the road with the same ip address. how do you determine that same ip address is not same person. in other words, will i be punished because i share an ip address with many other players ?
Fly Safe ! Lea |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
284
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:05:12 -
[27] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Sigh... Peligro there are many questions in that post you can easily answer, like if I can make key-remaps, can I use a touch screen to activate modules or is using video fx out of the client considered "client modification".
I cannot wrap my head around everytime you guys respond it's "read the EULA". The EULA doesn't answer this question and you guys refuse to clarify.
Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic. The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players.
As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2: "You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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Lea De Dijon
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:12:57 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Peligro,
that in fact means i can scrap my logitech G13 ?
Rgds Lea |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
284
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:22:20 -
[29] - Quote
Lea De Dijon wrote:Hi,
I have seen the video on youtube about your attempts to prevent botting and account hacking. a lot of emphasis seems to be on specific ip addresses. you are aware that many ISP, especially in rural areas have a shared ip address for the majority of their customers ? i am network engineer for one of those ISP and i know for sure there are other eve players on the road with the same ip address. how do you determine that same ip address is not same person. in other words, will i be punished because i share an ip address with many other players ?
Fly Safe ! Lea
Are you referring to the top 20 "Banned accounts by country IP" graphs? These are "for fun" numbers which we were asked to present, and we've got them, so why not? (Page 20, 21 from http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67092/1/Fanfest_2015_-_Team_Security_-_Better_Safe_Than_Sorry.pdf)
I did add disclaimers both times we've shown these graphs at fanfest, as we don't necessarily equate an IP address to an individual. This is merely technical information extracted from the latest source IP used to connect to the banned accounts we were analyzing, for the purposes of this presentation. Lots of these accounts are using various methods to hide their actual IP (proxies, VPN's, VPS, Tor, you name it, people use it).
Also, USA & Russia topping makes sense, because they are our biggest markets. Please don't interpret these graphs as a "who's who" of cheaters and their nationalities. In all honesty, nationality is not a factor for CCP in this context at all. You are all citizens of New Eden, as far as I am concerned!
To answer your actual question - no you shouldn't worry about sharing IP addresses with other players. We have an abundance of information available to determine ownership of accounts. Some players connect with a new IP address every single day, and this is perfectly OK.
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:45:53 -
[30] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Sigh... Peligro there are many questions in that post you can easily answer, like if I can make key-remaps, can I use a touch screen to activate modules or is using video fx out of the client considered "client modification".
I cannot wrap my head around everytime you guys respond it's "read the EULA". The EULA doesn't answer this question and you guys refuse to clarify.
"A good rule of thumb to keep in mind is that if you have to ask, then the activity in question is probably prohibited." - CCP Peligro
The operative word in there is "if you HAVE to ask" not just if you WANT to ask. Quit wanting so badly. lol |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
284
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:46:03 -
[31] - Quote
Here are some Twitch.TV chatlogs from our presentation, for no specific reason. Names were removed.
Guessing both of these were for me. PS: hair is gone now! Mar 21 15:02:17 who is the guy who looks like a hanson member Mar 21 15:02:27 CCP I hateyoudad
On Bugartist's gangsta lean and mic hold: Mar 21 15:04:13 like a gangsta Mar 21 15:04:15 gangsta mike hold? Mar 21 15:04:16 is he german Kappa Mar 21 15:04:22 Thats how ya holda mic! BALLA
Thanks we love you too! Mar 21 15:04:38 i love these guys
Oh please, we're running 1990 PowerPoint 2.0 for Windows 3.0 here, only the finest! Mar 21 15:05:35 CCP microsoft powerpoint 2003
I'm glad to see the level of excitement in the logs as well. This is pretty much me, all day: Mar 21 15:24:46 HAHA REKT Mar 21 15:24:47 wat da fuq Kappa Mar 21 15:24:47 Those tears Mar 21 15:24:47 rekt Mar 21 15:24:47 get dunked Mar 21 15:24:47 ccp does it right Mar 21 15:24:49 Get REKT BOTTERS
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
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Posted - 2015.04.13 21:51:20 -
[32] - Quote
Lea De Dijon wrote:CCP Peligro,
that in fact means i can scrap my logitech G13 ?
Rgds Lea
Don't have to scrap it since the G13 works nicely as a mouse. It's got a left and right mouse button and a scroll wheel and moves you pointer around the screen. Just don't use the embedded software to construct macros for all those other little buttony things |
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers Soviet-Union
364
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Posted - 2015.04.13 22:13:23 -
[33] - Quote
Can I use Windows to do the key assignment?
Legacy - An EVE Online Blog
Legacy of a Capsuleer Podcast
EVEServers.info - One stop API Solution for Corps/Alliances
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Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
829
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Posted - 2015.04.13 22:16:29 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic. The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players. As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2: "You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."
What is your and CCP's definition of "how the game is played"? You didn't expect people to live in wormholes, yet they did. You didn't expect people to min/max their PVP, but they did. Are they in violation of the EULA? Are you confirming that EVE-O is banned then? That Pyfa, EFT, and Fuzzworks are banned? They change how the game is (was) played from EVE's release. TS3, Mumble, Overwolf, and Steam output an overlay on the screen; are they banned too? No, CCP Peligro, I didn't think so. Neither does ISBoxer, unless you have some contrived answer or proof. You want to enforce your EULA for ISBoxer? Fine, we say. But enforce it unilaterally. You can't pick and choose which parts of the EULA you want to enforce simply because it isn't convenient to you if you make us abide by it's entirety. As for "best interest", you make me laugh. You provided zero evidence supporting this cockamamie statement even as players came out and told you that more people quit because of CODE in a single month than an ISBoxer in it's entire lifespan. You want to talk about the health of EVE? Fine, lets. While I am relatively neutral on hyperdunking, it's a serious issue that can and has driven players away. I'm saying this both as a freighter pilot and as a ganker. Are you going to ban every Russian player who remaps their keyboard from Cyrillic to English? How about from Korean to English? Am I going to be banned for using Logitech's software to change the side-keys of my G600 to something other than "1-12"? How about that vet that came back from Afghanistan without his hand? If I remember correctly, he purchased a G13 Gamepad so he could be competitive in EVE. These are the questions that have been asked of CCP for the past two+ years, and time after time we have received silence, shrugs, or outright hostility from both CCP devs and the rest of the player-base.
We used to be able to do our thing with only the weekly "grr ISBoxer" thread in GD, and whoever wanted to smacktalk in local. We were not immune to ganks, we were not immune to server hiccups, and we were not immune to human error, so no, we are not playing the game differently than how it is played. You're confusing ISBoxers and botters, and that is not the kindergarten-level mistake a professional in the game development industry ought to make.
Stop attempting to scapegoat every problem you have in the game on ISBoxers. ISBoxers were one of your most dedicated and supportive player groups. We were contributing positive members of the community. We weren't "leveling our Raven"; we were dedicated to the game you created. Arguably we were as dedicated as those who owned Titans and Supercarriers (I must interject here and say I found it very interesting how many people finally trained a supercarrier and left. It was quite startling) and we were very happy to take time out of our day to sit down with a player, either from EVE or outside the game, and discuss both EVE itself, and multiboxing. We were loyal fans, and CCP did nothing more than kick us in the teeth. |
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 22:20:37 -
[35] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:We can regrettably not sanction or otherwise authorize the use of specific third party programs or setups. We hope you understand that we can not realistically do so given the multitude of programs, use cases and user setups that can emerge. There is also the fact that CCP has no direct control over the development of programs created by third parties; a program which complies with the EVE EULA today may be updated tomorrow with a feature which violates the EVE EULA. We can therefore not make any direct statement concerning your inquiry in particular. In short, we do not provide support beyond that listed in our official policies and public statements on the matter. Use of any third party tools is done entirely at the risk of the user and we can not publish a comprehensive list of allowed and prohibited configurations. We can point you to the following resources and statements on the use of third party programs. We hope these resources prove helpful to you in determining if what you want to do is permitted by the EULA or not: Third party policies - http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/ Statement on Multiboxing/Multiplexing - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5241022 EULA GÇô http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-eula/ Terms of Service GÇô http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-tos/ We strongly advise you to refrain from using the program in question if there is still any uncertainty to the legitimacy of what you wish to do. We wish to stress the above point again: any use of third party tools is done entirely at the userGÇÿs (your) risk and there may be severe repercussions, potentially including permanent closure of your game account(s). We can ultimately only recommend that you do not use any sort of third party program which assist with EVE gameplay and/or change the way the game is played. A good rule of thumb to keep in mind is that if you have to ask, then the activity in question is probably prohibited.
So TLDR is I use Windows at my own risk now? Wow that's pretty tough stuff.
Could you outline what the standard is for "the way the game is played"? What are the settings I'm allowed to use in my windows 8 and 7 OSes? What OSes am I allowed to use? Is there a specific resolution I'm supposed to be playing at? I'm still allowed to play in windowed mode right? I know I'm using a third party program (windows) to do it so I just want to be clear. If I set my graphics card driver to optimize for speed that will change how textures are rendered in game. Since that changes the way the game is displayed does that mean I'm breaking the EULA? What setting am I supposed to run at?
Basically I change the way the game is played compared to my friends by running eve in windowed mode. If I use some of the ease of access options in control panel such as mouse over for window focus am I breaking the EULA? Since that's changing the way the game is played compared to others I'm concerned about those functions being bannable now.
Considering I'm one of maybe a couple people still boxing incursions I'm paranoid as all get out at this point. I wanted to use some of the ease of use functions that are available in windows but now I'm concerned those might get me banned.
|
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 22:21:24 -
[36] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:CCP Peligro wrote:Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic. The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players. As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2: "You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played." What is your and CCP's definition of "how the game is played"? You didn't expect people to live in wormholes, yet they did. You didn't expect people to min/max their PVP, but they did. Are they in violation of the EULA?
"play" means how you interact with the client. Not how you play using the tools provided by the client. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1716
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 22:40:31 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Here are some Twitch.TV chatlogs from our presentation, for no specific reason. Names were removed. Guessing both of these were for me. PS: hair is gone now! Mar 21 15:02:17 who is the guy who looks like a hanson member Mar 21 15:02:27 CCP I hateyoudad On Bugartist's gangsta lean and mic hold:Mar 21 15:04:13 like a gangsta Mar 21 15:04:15 gangsta mike hold? Mar 21 15:04:16 is he german Kappa Mar 21 15:04:22 Thats how ya holda mic! BALLA Thanks we love you too!Mar 21 15:04:38 i love these guys Oh please, we're running 1990 PowerPoint 2.0 for Windows 3.0 here, only the finest! Mar 21 15:05:35 CCP microsoft powerpoint 2003 I'm glad to see the level of excitement in the logs as well. This is pretty much me, all day:Mar 21 15:24:46 HAHA REKT Mar 21 15:24:47 wat da fuq Kappa Mar 21 15:24:47 Those tears Mar 21 15:24:47 rekt Mar 21 15:24:47 get dunked Mar 21 15:24:47 ccp does it right Mar 21 15:24:49 Get REKT BOTTERS
One of my favorite CCP'ers, you could maybe make favorite someday if you didn't have a crippling illness.
Post signing with a signature no less.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.
Creator of Burn Jita
Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
|
Trakow
Beta Switch
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 23:26:48 -
[38] - Quote
I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance!
Keep up the good work CCP! |
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 00:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Trakow wrote:I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance! Keep up the good work CCP! I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers.
I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play. |
Lea De Dijon
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 00:29:29 -
[40] - Quote
i agree, KOS checkers for example, a 3rd party app takes info from a window and displays info on a char in a non eve application. i think it is indeed relevant and not asked to much to get clarification.
Lea |
|
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 00:31:25 -
[41] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Trakow wrote:I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance! Keep up the good work CCP! I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers. I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play.
Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category.
I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland? |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
829
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 00:39:21 -
[42] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category. I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland? Well of course we have more questions now than before. We got zero information that explained nothing and only muddied the waters even further. |
Lea De Dijon
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 00:42:26 -
[43] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk, I am not sure how you construct this now. If i expand on what has been said above I have to assume that any info taken from a window or screen in eve in general and processed outside the client (no API, real game screen) it could be considered 'illegal'. Especially if i requires only a combination of key strokes captured by the 3rd party application, not manual copy and paste.
Rgds Lea |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 01:31:28 -
[44] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category. I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland? Well of course we have more questions now than before. We got zero information that explained nothing and only muddied the waters even further.
Just can't believe there are more legitimate questions than before. There only seem to be more because now some people want to play games with all the same tripe about apps that don't relate to game play and even further into the realm of the absurd by inquiring about the operating system. It's all good. If you think you got zero information from that presentation, so be it. I know it cleared up a lot of questions I had, but then again, I was approaching it from the standpoint that these things should have always been EULA violations. Thus, I may be biased in how I interpret what it is saying. That being said, I think some are choosing to not read into what they are saying because it goes in a direction they don't want it to go.
But if I may, let me explain what I think they mean by all of this: do not use any third party app/software or software enhanced device to aid in creating inputs into the game. Period. If you do, well you may go far enough that we won't like it. No, they don't mean your operating system. Unless you are using your operating system to act in such a way that it mimics some third-party app that they have basically castrated.
No, they don't mean EVEmon of EFT or Pyfa or any of those things that may use data from the game but don't interact with it on the input side.
I'm not sure how that isn't clear. But again, I acknowledge that I read and listen to what they say and do with a bias towards: it was always against the EULA, they just let people get away with it for years. For those who always thought it was simply legal, rather than they were just getting away with something due to a blind eye being turned, they may in fact be entirely confused and don't understand any of it. But seriously, do you really expect they are going to come out and make it any clearer? Based on what I've seen thus far, they could come out and say "No ISBoxer. No Autohotkey. No this and no that" and the users of those things will still have more questions than they did on December 5th. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 01:34:08 -
[45] - Quote
Lea De Dijon wrote:Dirk MacGirk, I am not sure how you construct this now. If i expand on what has been said above I have to assume that any info taken from a window or screen in eve in general and processed outside the client (no API, real game screen) it could be considered 'illegal'. Especially if i requires only a combination of key strokes captured by the 3rd party application, not manual copy and paste.
Rgds Lea
Well, if you assume all of that then you will be in very safe territory. You should know that it doesn't include all that. But by using that as your buffer you will truly be safe |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
831
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 01:56:32 -
[46] - Quote
All we wanted was for CCP to repeal the change or at the very least, discuss the issue with us. Failing that, we take the enforcement of the EULA very seriously, so we are asking CCP about multiple programs that violate the EULA. EVEMon, Pyfa, EFT, and Fuzzworks arguably violate 6A3. EVE-O Preview violates 6A2. If CCP wishes to dis-include these programs, we have no other choice but to view the current actions as a regression to the era of T20, where a CCP dev was violating the EULA, not to mention the separation of a Dev and Player, and was considered above reproach simply because he was an employee of CCP. Nobody, least of all us, want this to happen, but what other choice do we have? |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1960
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 02:18:59 -
[47] - Quote
I haven't been following all this. Are programs like PLH which monitor your clipboard OK? You Ctrl+C local which loads into PLH.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
|
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 02:46:06 -
[48] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Trakow wrote:I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance! Keep up the good work CCP! I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers. I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play. Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category. I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland? Yeah I'm just trolling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZz_5dI6fgM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bZm2-gTwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZahhEjfAso
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pYOv7T6bug
I take the troll that far apparently... |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 02:59:17 -
[49] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:All we wanted was for CCP to repeal the change or at the very least, discuss the issue with us. Failing that, we take the enforcement of the EULA very seriously, so we are asking CCP about multiple programs that violate the EULA. EVEMon, Pyfa, EFT, and Fuzzworks arguably violate 6A3. EVE-O Preview violates 6A2. If CCP wishes to dis-include these programs, we have no other choice but to view the current actions as a regression to the era of T20, where a CCP dev was violating the EULA, not to mention the separation of a Dev and Player, and was considered above reproach simply because he was an employee of CCP. Nobody, least of all us, want this to happen, but what other choice do we have?
Inputs versus outputs. Aids to decision-making that result in the player creating an input into gameplay, and an app that assists in making an input easier or faster are two totally different things. Apps such as the first four you mentioned, don't deal with inputs at all, and thus they don't come anywhere near to what CCP is trying to deal with here. In fact, bringing those up is no different than those people who say that ISBoxer is botting. Two totally different things that people try to conflate to make them seem equally wrong.
And if you think EVE-O is some godsend to multiboxing, then load that up and hyperbox away. But we both know it isn't a replacement for ISBoxer, right?
Ff you want to raise the spectre of T20, you should do that with your representatives to the CSM. Seriously, if you want to make that comparison, you really should dial it up a notch and see where it goes. Don't let your rights be trampled. Enlist the aid of your favorite CSM and let them try and fight for you in saving us from another T20. Something tells me they wouldn't agree with you. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 03:09:50 -
[50] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Trakow wrote:I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance! Keep up the good work CCP! I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers. I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play. Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category. I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland? Yeah I'm just trolling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZz_5dI6fgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bZm2-gTwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZahhEjfAso https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pYOv7T6bug I take the troll that far apparently...
OK, so from what I see you are playing in windowed mode using multiple instances. EVE provides for windowed mode out of the box. I don't see anything you are doing there as being even close to a violation. Multiple windows, have to activate the current windown, no VFx dashboard, single click = single action, no macros or round robins or rollovers. What's your question? You're playing EVE using the tools the developer gave you. Or so it seems from the video at a glance. Are you doing something other than playing EVE in windowed mode? Arranging full EVE windows isn't a violation.
I apologize for saying you were trolling, but are you really unclear that windowed mode isn't totally legal? It is on EVE's Display & Graphic tab. |
|
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
483
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 03:11:33 -
[51] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:
Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic. The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players.
As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2: "You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."
I would very much like to see a clarifying statement on this. As all of my keystrokes must go through logitech hardware and software to even get to my OS not to mention Eve I fail to see how logitech is a third party. Also effectively moving my f1 key to the lower lefthand side of my screen does not seem like it is modifying the way that I play the game especially considering that I can remap keys in game.
I highly doubt that you would have any problem with me using my G keys to activate modules but your wording here seems not clear.
|
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 03:25:19 -
[52] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Trakow wrote:I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance! Keep up the good work CCP! I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers. I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play. Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category. I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland? Yeah I'm just trolling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZz_5dI6fgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bZm2-gTwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZahhEjfAso https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pYOv7T6bug I take the troll that far apparently... OK, so from what I see you are playing in windowed mode using multiple instances. EVE provides for windowed mode out of the box. I don't see anything you are doing there as being even close to a violation. Multiple windows, have to activate the current windown, no VFx dashboard, single click = single action, no macros or round robins or rollovers. What's your question? You're playing EVE using the tools the developer gave you. Or so it seems from the video at a glance. Are you doing something other than playing EVE in windowed mode? Arranging full EVE windows isn't a violation. I apologize for saying you were trolling, but are you really unclear that windowed mode isn't totally legal? It is on EVE's Display & Graphic tab. Except now the EULA and the statements are completely different. Windowed mode only exists because of a third party program called windows. Every question was relevant to my activity.
The ease of use functions available in all windows "changes" the way the game is played by allowing me to do things like mouse over focus. I want to use that function of the OS but the way they are wording this stuff I could be falling into a ban as a result. I want a clarification if I'm allowed to use those OS functions. These are only part of my questions the full list is in the post you deemed to be a "troll post"....
BTW I don't have to hit hotkeys for every window. For example when taking the gate I just hold D and click through the windows. Is that bannable? I'm not using anything other then a standard mechanical keyboard (nothing fancy other then nice switches) and windows 7 pro. |
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 03:29:10 -
[53] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:CCP Peligro wrote:
Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic. The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players.
As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2: "You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."
I would very much like to see a clarifying statement on this. As all of my keystrokes must go through logitech hardware and software to even get to my OS not to mention Eve I fail to see how logitech is a third party. Also effectively moving my f1 key to the lower lefthand side of my screen does not seem like it is modifying the way that I play the game especially considering that I can remap keys in game. I highly doubt that you would have any problem with me using my G keys to activate modules but your wording here seems not clear. Every single program running on your computer other then those installed by CCP are considered third party. Even your operating system and drivers are third party.
|
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2254
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 03:32:50 -
[54] - Quote
Quote:Fanfest is over, and I think I finally lost my hangover. I hope this was written a while ago, otherwise that is one mean, month-long hangover. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 03:43:05 -
[55] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Except now the EULA and the statements are completely different. Windowed mode only exists because of a third party program called windows. Every question was relevant to my activity.
The ease of use functions available in all windows "changes" the way the game is played by allowing me to do things like mouse over focus. I want to use that function of the OS but the way they are wording this stuff I could be falling into a ban as a result. I want a clarification if I'm allowed to use those OS functions. These are only part of my questions the full list is in the post you deemed to be a "troll post"....
Ah, I see. Windows, the operating system, allows CCP to give you windowed mode, thus Windows is itself a third-party program the contributes to a EULA violation. Yes, I see why you might be concerned.
Look, when you start off from that perspective, one might get the idea you're trying to troll. That's cool. I wasn't really clear about what they were targeting entirely back when all this began in December. And I too asked for clarity. But I think I now know what will and won't get you into trouble or get you banned. I'm not sure that anyone will be able to convince those who don't already get it. Not that I really think they don't get it. Hey, I wish you well in finding your path to the EULA enlightenment you seek. Play safe. |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
833
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 03:57:58 -
[56] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Inputs versus outputs. Aids to decision-making that result in the player creating an input into gameplay, and an app that assists in making an input easier or faster are two totally different things. Apps such as the first four you mentioned, don't deal with inputs at all, and thus they don't come anywhere near to what CCP is trying to deal with here. In fact, bringing those up is no different than those people who say that ISBoxer is botting. Two totally different things that people try to conflate to make them seem equally wrong. And if you think EVE-O is some godsend to multiboxing, then load that up and hyperbox away. But we both know it isn't a replacement for ISBoxer, right? If you want to raise the spectre of T20, you should do that with your representatives to the CSM. Seriously, if you want to make that comparison, you really should dial it up a notch and see where it goes. Don't let your rights be trampled. Enlist the aid of your favorite CSM and let them try and fight for you in saving us from another T20. Something tells me they wouldn't agree with you. "Aids to decision-making" So you mean like better GPU/CPU/RAM, reduced graphics, and a bigger monitor, which allows a player to react faster than another player with older hardware? Do you mean things like Fuzzworks, which lets a player decide which module he should sell on the market or manufacture to produce the most ISK / LP faster than someone with a calculator doing it by hand? I bring these programs up in an attempt to show how crazy the arguments being presented against ISBoxer are, however I was quite serious in my request to ban these programs because they violate the EULA in the exact same hair-brained logic that ISBoxer does. I'm not saying it's a "godsend", I'm asking if that 5-boxer was using EVE-O Preview instead of ISBoxer, would he have been banned? Can anyone at CCP look me in the eye and say "Yes, he would have been banned" for playing too fast?
e: @Dirk MacGirk He brings up Windows the same reason I brought up Pyfa/EFT. It can be argued to violate the EULA. We're saying CCP cannot selectively pick and choose what part of the EULA they want to enforce for which programs. They have two choices: Either they ban them all, or they don't ban any of them. |
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 04:00:58 -
[57] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:
Except now the EULA and the statements are completely different. Windowed mode only exists because of a third party program called windows. Every question was relevant to my activity.
The ease of use functions available in all windows "changes" the way the game is played by allowing me to do things like mouse over focus. I want to use that function of the OS but the way they are wording this stuff I could be falling into a ban as a result. I want a clarification if I'm allowed to use those OS functions. These are only part of my questions the full list is in the post you deemed to be a "troll post"....
Ah, I see. Windows, the operating system, allows CCP to give you windowed mode, thus Windows is itself a third-party program the contributes to a EULA violation. Yes, I see why you might be concerned. Look, when you start off from that perspective, one might get the idea you're trying to troll. That's cool. I wasn't really clear about what they were targeting entirely back when all this began in December. And I too asked for clarity. But I think I now know what will and won't get you into trouble or get you banned. I'm not sure that anyone will be able to convince those who don't already get it. Not that I really think they don't get it. Hey, I wish you well in finding your path to the EULA enlightenment you seek. Play safe. I'm trying that's why I'm not using any of the fancy stuff in windows and I'm only running eve clients.
Outside of that video is a screen to my right that has a nestor and is part of the primary system.
To the left is a secondary system that uses a second keyboard and mouse along with a dedicated monitor. That system runs my booster. ore dropper and second nestor.
Seen here
http://i.imgur.com/7spamN0.jpg
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ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers Soviet-Union
364
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 04:09:06 -
[58] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:I'm trying that's why I'm not using any of the fancy stuff in windows and I'm only running eve clients. Outside of that video is a screen to my right that has a nestor and is part of the primary system. To the left is a secondary system that uses a second keyboard and mouse along with a dedicated monitor. That system runs my booster. ore dropper and second nestor. Seen here http://i.imgur.com/7spamN0.jpg
I hate to say this, but I do so with 100% honesty.
If your "too fast" compared to a baseline that we dont know of, you will probably get banned assuming we are to believe the half or so dozen people who reported the same.
CCP has no method to tell the difference if your using a macro (unless its painfully obvious) or you are just good at multiboxing and alt-tabbing...
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 04:17:01 -
[59] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:Inputs versus outputs. Aids to decision-making that result in the player creating an input into gameplay, and an app that assists in making an input easier or faster are two totally different things. Apps such as the first four you mentioned, don't deal with inputs at all, and thus they don't come anywhere near to what CCP is trying to deal with here. In fact, bringing those up is no different than those people who say that ISBoxer is botting. Two totally different things that people try to conflate to make them seem equally wrong. And if you think EVE-O is some godsend to multiboxing, then load that up and hyperbox away. But we both know it isn't a replacement for ISBoxer, right? If you want to raise the spectre of T20, you should do that with your representatives to the CSM. Seriously, if you want to make that comparison, you really should dial it up a notch and see where it goes. Don't let your rights be trampled. Enlist the aid of your favorite CSM and let them try and fight for you in saving us from another T20. Something tells me they wouldn't agree with you. "Aids to decision-making" So you mean like better GPU/CPU/RAM, reduced graphics, and a bigger monitor, which allows a player to react faster than another player with older hardware? Do you mean things like Fuzzworks, which lets a player decide which module he should sell on the market or manufacture to produce the most ISK / LP faster than someone with a calculator doing it by hand? I bring these programs up in an attempt to show how crazy the arguments being presented against ISBoxer are, however I was quite serious in my request to ban these programs because they violate the EULA in the exact same hair-brained logic that ISBoxer does. I'm not saying it's a "godsend", I'm asking if that 5-boxer was using EVE-O Preview instead of ISBoxer, would he have been banned? Can anyone at CCP look me in the eye and say "Yes, he would have been banned" for playing too fast? e: @Dirk MacGirk He brings up Windows the same reason I brought up Pyfa/EFT. It can be argued to violate the EULA. We're saying CCP cannot selectively pick and choose what part of the EULA they want to enforce for which programs. They have two choices: Either they ban them all, or they don't ban any of them.
Anything can be argued to violate the EULA. The argument may not be right, but anything can be argued.
Actually, they have a third choice: ban whatever they want and don't ban everything else that may or may not be similar or exactly the same. They can absolutely choose to say one thing in the EULA and do another with regard to enforcing it. Which is exactly what they did related to ISBoxer and Boxer-like functionality for years. But let's not for one minute think that if they do this then they must do that. There is no fundamental right to equal protection under the EULA, even if the argument had merit. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 04:33:14 -
[60] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:I'm trying that's why I'm not using any of the fancy stuff in windows and I'm only running eve clients. Outside of that video is a screen to my right that has a nestor and is part of the primary system. To the left is a secondary system that uses a second keyboard and mouse along with a dedicated monitor. That system runs my booster. ore dropper and second nestor. Seen here http://i.imgur.com/7spamN0.jpg I hate to say this, but I do so with 100% honesty. If your "too fast" compared to a baseline that we dont know of, you will probably get banned assuming we are to believe the half or so dozen people who reported the same. CCP has no method to tell the difference if your using a macro (unless its painfully obvious) or you are just good at multiboxing and alt-tabbing...
Shadow - We don't know that they have a speed baseline. Could make sense, in the absence of some other method, but we don't honestly know what tool(s) they are using or what the chance is for a false positive.
Maybe one day CCP_EdwardSnowden will shoot some docs to EVEWikiLeaks and out the fact that they are looking into your machine. But until then, its all just speculation because they won't give it away so that some crafty soul out there can find a way of masking the signature |
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Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 04:38:13 -
[61] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:ShadowandLight wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:I'm trying that's why I'm not using any of the fancy stuff in windows and I'm only running eve clients. Outside of that video is a screen to my right that has a nestor and is part of the primary system. To the left is a secondary system that uses a second keyboard and mouse along with a dedicated monitor. That system runs my booster. ore dropper and second nestor. Seen here http://i.imgur.com/7spamN0.jpg I hate to say this, but I do so with 100% honesty. If your "too fast" compared to a baseline that we dont know of, you will probably get banned assuming we are to believe the half or so dozen people who reported the same. CCP has no method to tell the difference if your using a macro (unless its painfully obvious) or you are just good at multiboxing and alt-tabbing... Shadow - We don't know that they have a speed baseline. Could make sense, in the absence of some other method, but we don't honestly know what tool(s) they are using or what the chance is for a false positive. Maybe one day CCP_EdwardSnowden will shoot some docs to EVEWikiLeaks and out the fact that they are looking into your machine. But until then, its all just speculation because they won't give it away so that some crafty soul out there can find a way of masking the signature I would settle for a "yeah that's cool" response to the videos of my setup. Answering some of my questions would be huge too. Instead of the "read the eula and go to the update thread" responses. |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
833
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 04:54:02 -
[62] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Anything can be argued to violate the EULA. The argument may not be right, but anything can be argued. Actually, they have a third choice: ban whatever they want and don't ban everything else that may or may not be similar or exactly the same. They can absolutely choose to say one thing in the EULA and do another with regard to enforcing it. Which is exactly what they did related to ISBoxer and Boxer-like functionality for years. But let's not for one minute think that if they do this then they must do that. There is no fundamental right to equal protection under the EULA, even if the argument had merit.
See, that's kinda why CCP created an EULA, and it's definitely why they created the Internal Affairs division.. It's kinda the same concept for the US Constitution, or the 10 Commandments. It's not "Thou shalt not kill, unless you really, really want to, or you sign on the dotted line." It's also why the justifications for felony murder are few and far between. EULAs and laws are not a dinner menu. You don't get to pick and choose which parts you want to enforce today if you're going to specifically target something. It's not some BINGO card where you can go home after you get five in a row. Even members of the United States government have to abide by the Constitution, including the President himself (except on very rare occasions that have strict requirements). If you're telling me, that a game company that's a good 1/10th the size of the government (at least in the White House), and has not even a hundredth of a percentile of the regulations, laws, rules, and red tape that ensnares the USG on a daily basis, cannot follow or enforce their own rules across the board and not just when it's convenient, then I really don't know what to say. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 05:06:59 -
[63] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote: I would settle for a "yeah that's cool" response to the videos of my setup. Answering some of my questions would be huge too. Instead of the "read the eula and go to the update thread" responses.
I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you. |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
833
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 05:11:44 -
[64] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you. Any tickets sent in that even brush near multiboxing are responded with "Go look at the thread". CCP says "send a ticket", GMs say "look at the thread". |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
137
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 05:26:55 -
[65] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you. Any tickets sent in that even brush near multiboxing are responded with "Go look at the thread". CCP says "send a ticket", GMs say "look at the thread".
I cannot vouch for the outcome, just the CCP prescribed method. So other than that, what's his option? It ain't posting youtube vids in the forums. They won't answer that. So since the CCP method doesn't work for you, then what should he do? Stomp his feet? Talk about Windows and Evemon? Debate whether there is an expectation of equal protection under a EULA enforceable in an Icelandic court of law? |
Safdrof Uta
Mustang Down Task Force Viper
27
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 05:31:14 -
[66] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you. Any tickets sent in that even brush near multiboxing are responded with "Go look at the thread". CCP says "send a ticket", GMs say "look at the thread".
Would you shut up already Nolak.
Multiboxing is bad, stop crying, every one is sick and tired of you complaining. |
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 05:57:01 -
[67] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you. Any tickets sent in that even brush near multiboxing are responded with "Go look at the thread". CCP says "send a ticket", GMs say "look at the thread". I cannot vouch for the outcome, just the CCP prescribed method. So other than that, what's his option? It ain't posting youtube vids in the forums. They won't answer that. So since the CCP method doesn't work for you, then what should he do? Stomp his feet? Talk about Windows and Evemon? Debate whether there is an expectation of equal protection under a EULA enforceable in an Icelandic court of law? Well I figured maybe I'd get some attention here and get a better response in private communication.
It's a long shot I know but at this point I'm trying everything. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5328
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 07:26:41 -
[68] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:CCP Peligro wrote:Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic. The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players. As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2: "You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played." What is your and CCP's definition of "how the game is played"? You didn't expect people to live in wormholes, yet they did. You didn't expect people to min/max their PVP, but they did. Are they in violation of the EULA? "play" means how you interact with the client. Not how you play using the tools provided by the client. OK, so voice command tools are banned then, since they change how you interact with the client? What about speciality tools used by people with disabilities?
At the end of the day it's pointless to say "how you interact with the client" as we know full well that CCP cannot tell how the client is interacting as they have zero client side detection. Effectively the rule is "don't be too efficient at multiboxing or you get banned".
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5328
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 07:28:25 -
[69] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Trakow wrote:I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance! Keep up the good work CCP! I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers. I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play. Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category. I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland? Funny you should say that. Apparently pressing F1-F8 on a macro is not allowed. With no client side detection pressing F1 to F8 with 8 fingers is indistinguishable from a bound key, so yes, using your fingers is against the EULA.
Dirk MacGirk wrote:No, they don't mean EVEmon or EFT or Pyfa or Dotlan or any of those things that may use data from the game but don't interact with it on the input side. Why don't they mean those though. If the problem is that people are gaining an unfair advantage, there are a number of tools which give me as a trader FAR more advantage than any multibox tool has ever given a multiboxer. Seems like selective enforcement to me.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5328
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 07:34:22 -
[70] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:OK, so from what I see you are playing in windowed mode using multiple instances. EVE provides for windowed mode out of the box. I don't see anything you are doing there as being even close to a violation. Multiple windows, have to activate the current windown, no VFx dashboard, single click = single action, no macros or round robins or rollovers. What's your question? You're playing EVE using the tools the developer gave you. Or so it seems from the video at a glance. Are you doing something other than playing EVE in windowed mode? Arranging full EVE windows isn't a violation.
I apologize for saying you were trolling, but are you really unclear that windowed mode isn't totally legal? It is on EVE's Display & Graphic tab. Except that layout is efficient enough that it is likely to land a ban a few months down the line. Pretend you can;'t see the video for what the player is actually interacting with and look at the results. Looks like isboxer, no? That's what CCP are banning on, what the server sees, not what the client is doing.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5328
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 07:43:05 -
[71] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Shadow - We don't know that they have a speed baseline. Could make sense, in the absence of some other method, but we don't honestly know what tool(s) they are using or what the chance is for a false positive. I know that they do, since I was at fanfest and asked them. They have no client side detection and they work out everything using data analysis over a long time period. They specifically spoke about people being x% over the average for efficiency being a trigger point. Worse still they spoke about tracking people for months before banning them meaning that people might be playing perfectly fine and as far as they know within the rules for months, then suddenly get a ban and lost months work of assets and isk. The thing is, multiplexing is easy enough, when multiple accounts are firing off commands at exactly the same time, it shows up. But beyond that, there's no way of seeing the difference between round robin and someone with their windows tiled across 3 massive monitors or rapidly switching windows like Kinete is doing.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
483
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 11:26:30 -
[72] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Every single program running on your computer other then those installed by CCP are considered third party. Even your operating system and drivers are third party.
Oh wow now I even more so think we need a clarifying statement on this. If that is true you can't even play the game without violating the EULA.
I was one of the more vocal people about CCP doing something about bots. I am very glad to see that they have been. Unfortunately it has not affected the price of ore as much as I'd hoped nor predicted but I can't be 100% correct on everything. Anyway I'm getting off topic, I want to congratulate the guys on team security for getting rid of as many bots and RMTers as they have.
However when you start making blanket dragnet comments like CCP has and begin to consider standard gameplay as botting now you invalidate everything that you've done. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5330
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 12:09:25 -
[73] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:I was one of the more vocal people about CCP doing something about bots. I am very glad to see that they have been. ISBoxers are not bots.
ergherhdfgh wrote:Unfortunately it has not affected the price of ore as much as I'd hoped nor predicted It wouldn't do, since the price of ore has very little to do with ISBoxer users. Most multiboxers you see are manually controlled and are unaffected by this change. The only price heavily affected was PLEX and even that was mainly due to speculation.
As usual, when people complained about this, they had very little idea of what was actually the problem. The problem for you is that mining mechanics are so simple that running multiple characters nearly AFK is feasible and profitable. If you want ore prices to increase you need to push for more active and challenging mining mechanics which would make multibox mining more difficult and encourage it's use as an active income source rather than a passive one.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Memphis Baas
297
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 13:31:35 -
[74] - Quote
Good developers code effective methods for catching macro botters.
Great developers code (mining) gameplay that isn't so mind-numbingly repetitive and boring that it drives people to macro. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1535
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 13:49:27 -
[75] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:As usual, when people complained about this, they had very little idea of what was actually the problem. The problem for you is that mining mechanics are so simple that running multiple characters nearly AFK is feasible and profitable. If you want ore prices to increase you need to push for more active and challenging mining mechanics which would make multibox mining more difficult and encourage it's use as an active income source rather than a passive one.
The counterargument is that mining pays poorly, but because it's still an ATK, in-space activity, aggressive multiboxing is the only way to scale it up. It's much easier to scale research, manufacturing and moon harvesting.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
834
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 13:53:59 -
[76] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Good developers code effective methods for catching macro botters. Great developers code (mining) gameplay that isn't so mind-numbingly repetitive and boring that it drives people to macro. Fantastic developers talk to the community before enacting such a problematic change, especially since they have no real detection method other than witnesses with obvious conflicts of interests that would raise red flags for anyone who would read the reports. |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1044
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 14:24:35 -
[77] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote: It wasn't explained period.The change led to bans.
please see my earlier comment about not whining that no reason was given when reasons were given and your actual whine is you don't like the reasons |
Dirk Morbho
Mindstar Technology Get Off My Lawn
47
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 14:58:54 -
[78] - Quote
Hey Peligro,
Can we get a song at next years fanfest presentation?
15 Bulbous Moroses 11 Spinning Chimeras 6 Golden Aeons
TWO VERTICAL DREADS
3 Wvyerns [something something-ing] 2 Revelations Sieging
and A Shiney Erebus Doomsdaying
(Or something like that)
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
301
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 15:16:25 -
[79] - Quote
Please continue the "input broadcasting" or "multiplexing" or "I can't read and I'd like to troll Peligro" discussions in this existing thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=387571&find=unread
I've deleted some off-topic discussions and rabble-rousing.
CCP Peligro - Team Security
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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1542
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 16:03:00 -
[80] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Every single program running on your computer other then those installed by CCP are considered third party. Even your operating system and drivers are third party.
Oh wow now I even more so think we need a clarifying statement on this. If that is true you can't even play the game without violating the EULA.
That's because there has to be some human-level discretion involved, because of the sheer number of variables in play.
So, for example, a deaf or blind person using the accessibility functions of his operating system to play the game is not in violation, while a powergamer exploiting the same accessibility functions to reach otherwise impossible levels of speed or efficiency is in violation.
If CCP were to allow anything that shipped with an operating system then I could write bots with any of the half-dozen or so scripting languages that ship with my operating system, in the editors that ship with the operating system, using the system-wide hooks into events and windows that ship with the operating system, and thumb my nose at CCP, right? Wrong. That's obviously not going to happen. So CCP have to be able to rule out the use of system tools and features if they enable impossible levels of speed or efficiency.
Because that really is the goal.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
486
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 16:23:39 -
[81] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:[quote=ergherhdfgh]
As usual, when people complained about this, they had very little idea of what was actually the problem. The problem for you is that mining mechanics are so simple that running multiple characters nearly AFK is feasible and profitable. If you want ore prices to increase you need to push for more active and challenging mining mechanics which would make multibox mining more difficult and encourage it's use as an active income source rather than a passive one. I had pushed for those changes as well. |
Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
834
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 17:44:16 -
[82] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:So CCP have to be able to rule out the use of system tools and features if they enable impossible levels of speed or efficiency. Because that really is the goal. You're talking about actual bots, not ISBoxer. ISBoxer is no faster than an identical fleet with identical pilots, fits, implants, SP, an experience. ISBoxers are still subject to human error; bots are not. |
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers Soviet-Union
367
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 17:46:04 -
[83] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:So CCP have to be able to rule out the use of system tools and features if they enable impossible levels of speed or efficiency. Because that really is the goal. You're talking about actual bots, not ISBoxer. ISBoxer is no faster than an identical fleet with identical pilots, fits, implants, SP, an experience. ISBoxers are still subject to human error; bots are not.
and in almost all cases slower then a fleet of people instead of alts
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
144
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Posted - 2015.04.14 17:59:23 -
[84] - Quote
They (yeah, them, those guys) don't give a shite about other things Team Security does. They accept RMT is bannable in all its many variations, so its not a topic worthy of discussion for them. They accept that botting is bannable, thus they don't care to discuss it either. They laugh along with us at those who have been banned for RMT and botting because those are "bad people doing bad things". And they applaud your efforts at fighting attacks on the server or player accounts. They just don't accept that something they do might (now) be an offense that could put them in the same camp as those "bad people", and thus the focus is and always will be on Hyperboxing when it comes to Team Security's efforts. You cannot escape it. We cannot escape it. Like the blob and Jita local, it is just something we will learn to live with. Let freedom speak in all the places. Thus we can mock them in all the places. |
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2015.04.14 19:17:41 -
[85] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Kinete Jenius wrote:Every single program running on your computer other then those installed by CCP are considered third party. Even your operating system and drivers are third party.
Oh wow now I even more so think we need a clarifying statement on this. If that is true you can't even play the game without violating the EULA. That's because there has to be some human-level discretion involved, because of the sheer number of variables in play. So, for example, a deaf or blind person using the accessibility functions of his operating system to play the game is not in violation, while a powergamer exploiting the same accessibility functions to reach otherwise impossible levels of speed or efficiency is in violation. If CCP were to allow anything that shipped with an operating system then I could write bots with any of the half-dozen or so scripting languages that ship with my operating system, in the editors that ship with the operating system, using the system-wide hooks into events and windows that ship with the operating system, and thumb my nose at CCP, right? Wrong. That's obviously not going to happen. So CCP have to be able to rule out the use of system tools and features if they enable impossible levels of speed or efficiency. Because that really is the goal. What you've typed is madness absolute madness.
First off you're declaring it fine to ban people for being "too good" at the game. That's just insanity as one of if not the primary point of playing a game is to get good at it. Who decides what is impossible? The whole reason I started running incursions in windowed mode is because several fellows in the update thread said it would be impossible to do. I even ran pulsemares to show how I could make a conventional fleet still work albeit at a slower then preban speed. If I were to run the pulsemares today I'd probably be banned because I've figured out enough stuff that I could run sites a good minute or more quicker then I did in the video. Regardless your standard of "impossible speeds" is so vague to be useless at best at worst it means CCP's most dedicated fans would be getting banned. Mouse over focus isn't a speed increase for me it's just the removal of some clicks which both my mouse and my fingers would enjoy. It's crazy you want to ban that.
How do you think bots work? They utilize one of a couple standard languages that come with the OS and they utilize some of the functions. Here's the thing though. The bot itself doesn't come with windows as part of it's feature set. You're the one producing the bot. At this point when you're comparing a bot to ease of access tweaks that are naturally part of windows you're comparing a bolt to a car.
I just want to know that I'm not going to get banned for running in windowed mode and I can't even get that out of CCP.
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geton gettinon
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.04.14 20:10:31 -
[86] - Quote
You mean that thread where a dev hasn't responded for 5 months and 150 pages of discussion? |
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers Soviet-Union
367
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Posted - 2015.04.14 20:23:03 -
[87] - Quote
geton gettinon wrote:You mean that thread where a dev hasn't responded for 5 months and 150 pages of discussion?
when they do respond its "read the EULA"
or "you might be operating in a gray area, so please send us a petition"
which when you send in a petition
they respond with "read the EULA"
I swear to god they are printing out these posts, sticking them on the wall at CCP and laughing at how stupid they must think we are
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Hicksimus
Xion Limited Resonance.
584
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Posted - 2015.04.14 21:39:12 -
[88] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote: when they do respond its "read the EULA"
While I do understand that they do that a lot and that I cannot discuss their responses to my petitions lets just say that a friend of a friend of mine has opened ~10 petitions over 5 years and the only time he was satisfied was on an EULA clarification....so maybe it's who you get ahold of and how they're feeling.
Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you?
Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
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FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
66
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Posted - 2015.04.14 21:49:57 -
[89] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:
I just want to know that I'm not going to get banned for running in windowed mode and I can't even get that out of CCP.
Thats too much to ask my friend... I love this game, I dont mind having CCP make thousands of dollars through my accounts.. but why risk getting banned from a game i've loved playing for nearly 10years because CCP doesn't want to answer some questions.
1 - I dont use isboxer 2 - Will I get banned for beeing to good at alt-tabbing and using the ingame keybinding? 3 - ??? 4 - No profit - must go back to reading the EULA and forum again
Added: *and so we keep having unsubbed accounts until a clear answer is given, perfect CCP market strategie* |
Tara'Quoya Rax
Atlantis Asteria
6
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Posted - 2015.04.14 22:18:53 -
[90] - Quote
So we can't even bind simple shortcuts like Alt+C (Inventory), Alt+R (Market), Alt+B (Browser), ... to Logitech G-keys anymore for easier access? Where is the comfort line drawn?
On a side note, being a software dev myself, when writing software we always have to take into account accessibility. I understand that macro's in general can often provide players with an unfair advantage towards others in some form or shape, and can even lead to the collapse of a game altogether when abused in large scale. But in all fairness, for a number of players who suffer from physical disabilities, using macro's may be the difference between a playable and an unplayable EVE experience. I expect this player population to be very very small, but they might be out there still. |
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
488
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Posted - 2015.04.15 05:19:51 -
[91] - Quote
Tara'Quoya Rax wrote:So we can't even bind simple shortcuts like Alt+C (Inventory), Alt+R (Market), Alt+B (Browser), ... to Logitech G-keys anymore for easier access? Where is the comfort line drawn?
On a side note, being a software dev myself, when writing software we always have to take into account accessibility. I understand that macro's in general can often provide players with an unfair advantage towards others in some form or shape, and can even lead to the collapse of a game altogether when abused in large scale. But in all fairness, for a number of players who suffer from physical disabilities, using macro's may be the difference between a playable and an unplayable EVE experience. I expect this player population to be very very small, but they might be out there still. I agree. But I think with Eve having a 1 second "tick" of the server between actions I don't think it is a difficult line to draw. You would need to build some kind of time element into it to do complex actions which I don't even know if that is possible with the logitech software.
Any way to me it would seem that if you press a key and a single action happens I don't see how that can be a problem. So like you said even if you are combine keystrokes like Alt + C or shift + r for example those are defaults which are remappable anyway so you are not changing the way that you play the game.
If CCP would just make a statement along those lines with regards to G keys that would be enough to solve many of these questions. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1544
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Posted - 2015.04.15 16:44:35 -
[92] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:That's because there has to be some human-level discretion involved, because of the sheer number of variables in play.
[...]
So CCP have to be able to rule out the use of system tools and features if they enable impossible levels of speed or efficiency.
Because that really is the goal. What you've typed is madness absolute madness.
Sorry, no.
Your definition of "getting good at the game" is not theirs. Binding a series of keystrokes to a programmable mouse is automating client input, not getting good at the game. You can become a terrific CEO, FC, or PVP pilot, or miner, or mission blitzer, or incursion runner, or explorer, or diplomat, with a completely vanilla client and with an ordinary, dumb keyboard and mouse. EVE is not a twitch game.
That's the point.
Kinete Jenius wrote:How do you think bots work? They utilize one of a couple standard languages that come with the OS and they utilize some of the functions. Here's the thing though. The bot itself doesn't come with windows as part of it's feature set. You're the one producing the bot. At this point when you're comparing a bot to ease of access tweaks that are naturally part of windows you're comparing an apple to a car.
That part of my argument didn't concern ease of access features. The first part did. The part where I said that using accessibility features as intended was not going to get you banned, but using them to give you capabilities beyond what would be available to a person using a default configuration with ordinary hardware probably will get you banned.
And if you don't like the "enhanced performance" metric, then what do you want them to use? That's pretty much the only way they have to measure anything, and it has the advantage of not caring whether you're getting the enhancement from software you wrote, or from input accessories, or from wooden dowels and duct tape.
Kinete Jenius wrote:I just want to know that I'm not going to get banned for running in windowed mode and I can't even get that out of CCP.
Because there isn't a simple answer to the question, and I suspect that you know that. Do you want to run in windowed mode in order to be able to interact significantly more efficiently than you could otherwise? Then you'll probably get whacked. If not, then you won't.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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