Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
2057
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 14:28:16 -
[31] - Quote
On thr plus side im now cap stable
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
CCP Goliath wrote:
Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
|
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
566
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 14:40:26 -
[32] - Quote
At present. medium rails (a long range gun) do no more dps then pulse lasers (a short range gun). I call this justified.
Overhaul Dscan!
Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
|
Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1140
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 14:58:33 -
[33] - Quote
Discomanco wrote:Eagle: 5*250mm Railgun T2 - Fed Navy Antimatter Charges 4 Mag Stabs T2 511 DPS - 40.5k+15km range
Eagle: 5*Heavy Neutron Blaster T2 - Fed Navy Antimatter Charges 4 Mag Stabs T2 557 DPS - 5.08k+6.25k range There really shouldn't be 45 DPS difference between long range guns and close range guns, especially not considering there's also 45km falloff difference as well. +1km = -1 DPS just seems wrong The Rate of Fire nerf should do good to separate them a bit. Not too heavy, likely not too light
Agreed.
This change is also a stealth buff to rail ships in the form in decreased capacitor usage.
As for BNI's usage of Moas and Eagles, its only common sense. The ship progression is Moa >> Eagle >> Tengu. While you don't have to train for an Eagle to get into a Tengu, the Eagle is simply the cheaper but less capable version. So any alliance without the finances to regularly replace more expensive ships will choose something more within their means. I've advocated Eagles/Tengus since HACs and Med Rails were rebalanced, and couldn't be happier that BNI chose them for a fleet doctrine.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
Marciniusz Solo
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:01:58 -
[34] - Quote
Wouldn't a reduction in RoF make railguns shoot faster and therefore put out more dps? That looks like a buff to me, not a nerf... |
Tethys Luxor
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
6
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:08:18 -
[35] - Quote
There's no capacitor buff, but it's a funny joke. You can already manage your guns to get the same cap use as after this nerf.
After looking at your comparisons with beams and blaster, railgun damage seems really a bit high. At the same time Moas and Eagles are not OP. One conclusion would be that blasters and beams don't do enough damage, but it seems quite wrong.
On a different note, this may allow artillery to make a come back. Railguns get range, Arties goes for alpha.
After the change, what is the dps comparison between arties and railguns ? |
Tethys Luxor
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
6
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:09:59 -
[36] - Quote
Marciniusz Solo wrote:Wouldn't a reduction in RoF make railguns shoot faster and therefore put out more dps? That looks like a buff to me, not a nerf...
reduction in rate of fire means less shots per seconds. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1433
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:13:41 -
[37] - Quote
I am a long-time railgun enthusiast (since well before the changes in 2013), and I support this change. The combination of good DPS and excellent projection available to medium rails was a bit much.
Plus...less cap usage. \o/
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1465
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:14:03 -
[38] - Quote
Entirely fair. After the buff, I remember mocking up a 250mm Brutix and thinking, why would I ever fit blasters?
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2804
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
Capqu wrote:seems good. 250mms in particular were beyond ridiculous and this should tone them down a bit
maybe look at making javelin useful while you're looking at railguns though, that ammo is really bad But I don't see anybody complaining about the dual 150mm rails being over powered. Is there a way CCP could be a bit more refined with the rail nerf and look at which combination of ships and rails are putting out the most damage?
JUSTK is recruiting.
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
2804
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 15:42:34 -
[40] - Quote
Grookshank wrote:We emptied Amarr of medium Railguns when we deceided for them, so I am not pulling that out of thin air.
Good point. We emptied Jita and Dodixie of 150mm railguns during the Huola fight last summer. They went on no ships except the Sniper Corm. That said, we see Sniper Eagles quite a bit from Snigg out where we live. And we see Rail Proteus from the local pirates.
JUSTK is recruiting.
|
|
Soldarius
Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent
1144
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 16:28:33 -
[41] - Quote
Forgot to say something.
Medium rails were one of the few systems that only needed a bit of a tweak; and that is exactly what they got. Looks good.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
|
Ben Ishikela
17
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 16:48:47 -
[42] - Quote
noooooooooooo.... but i like railguns so much. magneticaly accelerated charges of anitmatter rock. but i would be ok with lowest damage but highest versatility and highest application of all ranged weapons. I hope this still applies.
why not buff everything that is underused by 1% rate of fire or another unique attribute over several iterations/patches until it is used again? BigData will help :)
No more nerfing of percieved Overpowered Content!
It makes a game boring after too many iterations. Instead add new modules or ships that can use tactics and strategies to fight the current Meta.
|
Nivin Sajjad
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
2
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 17:08:17 -
[43] - Quote
CCP wrote:Shout-out here to CSM member mynnna for a great internal discussion on this topic. He raised the point that if you look at these weapon systems on their own, rather than comparing the ships using them, they look very balanced. It would follow then that the problem is more about Tengu, Eagle and Vulture than about rails. So far so good.
CCP wrote: However, we can never look at weapon systems or ships without taking the other into consideration.The relationship between cap use of energy weapons and ships with cap use bonuses for energy weapons is another good example where trying to look at one without the other causes problems. We are therefore happy to consider balancing via the weapons or the ships depending on which fits the situation best. In this case, we are happy to use rails as the avenue because it is much simpler for us to design and you to adjust to.
I'm going to take that "however" to mean "mynnna is correct in this instance, however...", in which case the followup reasoning actually contradicts CCP's own proposed actions.
This is what the devblog line of reasoning looks like to me:
- Certain medium rail using ships are unbalanced.
- This unbalance is caused by a combination of weapon stats and ship bonuses, and any balance proposal should consider both.
- We are therefore happy to muck around with the performance of every single medium rail using ship in the game, regardless of how their particular bonuses interact with the weapon system.
- This is because a de facto change to every single medium rail using ship in the game is easier to adjust to, compared to a change to only 3 troublesome ship types.
Hopefully you can see how this makes no sense. |
Masao Kurata
Z List
189
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 17:10:18 -
[44] - Quote
Gustav Mannfred wrote:This could be the end for all the suicide gank moas and vexors in Uedama and Niarja.
It definitely isn't. A 7% reduction in dps still leaves these as the most effective suicide gank fits in their class, they just will be a bit less effective for low SP pilots. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2029
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 17:20:07 -
[45] - Quote
Tengus: killer of HM and now Rails. Who will be the next victim? ECM? |
James Zimmer
Furtherance.
14
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 17:57:21 -
[46] - Quote
I have mixed opinions about this. I agree that rails were a bit too strong, but a flat reduction in ROF may be a crude way to deal with the problem. The real issue is that rails have really good DPS that projects extremely well over great distances. While on paper, their tracking is the worst, in practice they track much better than arty, which has to shoot at closer ranges.
Maybe anti-matter charges should have the same damage output, but a shorter base range, and then tweak all of the rail ammo range bonuses so that long range ammo still has a range bonus over arty and beams, albeit with much reduced DPS. If you did this, railguns would actually suffer from the tracking nerf when they try to go for super-high DPS, so using anti-matter would be risky, while still allowing them a range/kiting advantage over arty and beams. Alternatively, you could just nerf tracking even more.
Another thing that could be done to nerf rails would be to take a close look at Spike ammo. When you stack an 80% bonus to range on top of the longest range turret based weapon, on a ship bonused to range, the range overmatch gets a little ridiculous. I agree that Caldari rail boats should have good projection, but they shouldn't have a 100km advantage over their peers. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1099
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 18:01:56 -
[47] - Quote
i imagine railguns as being high dps but low alpha, i would rather see a 10% damage nerf than 7.5% RoF
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
|
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 18:09:25 -
[48] - Quote
Why does this need to apply to all railgun boats b/c Tengus are overpowered? Does the Deimos really need this kind of nerf?
This also takes away a good chunk of the buff that the arazu/lachesis recently got.....
Although I'm pretty happy with the Ishtar changes, but this recent attitude of "Nerf all the things! Swing the nerf bat hard in every direction!" is maybe a bit overkill. |
Catherine Laartii
Imperium Technologies Evictus.
483
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 18:13:47 -
[49] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now. Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.
For example. Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter. They die in masses.
I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields. Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.
So NO to rail nerf. Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.
We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.
I personally would like to see the double ranged bonuses on ishukone ships and the tengu sub get changed for optimal and tracking speed. It would go a long way towards improving their combat flexibility in skirmishes outside of large fleet gangs. |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Friends and Feminists
326
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 18:40:05 -
[50] - Quote
The problem with this change is that it will essentially kill numerous medium rail platforms that are not widely used, but still have certain roles while solo/smallgang/fleet (such as: rail thorax, rail deimos, rail vigilant rail exeq navy issue, and even the rail moa and rail eagles which are just barely viable and even then because BNI fleets are generally SP limited, so cannot use tengus etc.). Yet the change is probably not good enough to kill the rail tengu fleet meta as people will still just bring more, or only undock if they have 7%+ more people post-nerf.
So basically what this change will accomplish is: it will virtually kill about a dozen medium rail platforms, while only moderately reducing the effectiveness of the rail tengu (a reduction that can be fixed by bringing more people in the fleet). |
|
Cae Lara
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 18:41:34 -
[51] - Quote
I like it. Hitting the rate of fire still lets people critical mass their way to victory from the same range with the same numbers. They'll just be a bit less effective when all is said and done. We'll see how it plays out, but I think this was a really good way to go about the nerf. |
Tyanir Ellecon
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction -affliction-
10
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 19:32:07 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Moas, Tengus, Vultures, Proteii, Eagle, etc..
Mostly that just says to me that its not so much the rails that are the problem as the insane optimal range bonuses on the caldari hybrid line and the proteus having a range bonus also along with a massive tank. I just fear that such a large change to the weapons rather than the boats will make railguns unviable on ships such as the thorax/deimos.
In short I feel that, while the nerf is probably needed, its a bit harsh on other Hybrid platforms not listed where they are not so clearly overused/powerful and that a less severe nerf to the turrets combined with the alteration to optimal range bonuses would help bring them into line without rendering them useless on non-optimal bonused Hybrid hulls. |
Anthar Thebess
918
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 21:13:04 -
[53] - Quote
Why rails are so popular , and show up high on graphs?
Tengu fleets? Brave ridding hybrids as main weapon system for very long time? Most of the CFC using rails because of popular harpy fleet.
Some ships simply don't deserve nerf they will get because of this.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 21:43:07 -
[54] - Quote
Seems everyone agreed that Tengu is the problem not the rails. I m against this nerf. |
Anthar Thebess
919
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 22:35:45 -
[55] - Quote
Well i think that hybrids are very popular because from logistic and skill point perspective unified doctrine is easier to maintain. CFC is using hybrids in baltec fleets since you needed T2 med gun before T2 large hybrids. Many people have those skills so it is popular.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
92
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 22:37:23 -
[56] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:Seems everyone agreed that Tengu is the problem not the rails. I m against this nerf.
Very much indeed, CCP Plz. R.I.P. Deimos. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
778
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 22:40:54 -
[57] - Quote
They're popular because they do shitloads of DPS at long ranges.
N-Exe will do 545 with CNAM for gods sakes. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
176
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 22:47:50 -
[58] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:Atomeon wrote:Seems everyone agreed that Tengu is the problem not the rails. I m against this nerf. Very much indeed, CCP Plz. R.I.P. Deimos.
A good bit of this is wrapped up in kiting vs brawling. Rail Thorax, rail Deimos, rail Proteus, and rail Brutix are all just better off than their blaster cousins because of the speed and projection of common ships out there these days. Part of why rails are used so often, even outside of big doctrines, is largely because brawling is in such a bad place.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
|
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 23:18:32 -
[59] - Quote
-1, just hurts some ships that didn't need the bat.
Everything I train for just gets nerfed, that's 5 in a row. Damn sucks to be caldari.
|
Anthar Thebess
919
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 23:50:36 -
[60] - Quote
Specia1 K wrote:-1, just hurts some ships that didn't need the bat.
Everything I train for just gets nerfed, that's 5 in a row. Damn sucks to be caldari.
Train all guns / missiles / combat ships to T2 , and your problem will be solved. Only T2 hvy drones left for me.
Nerfing rails will be bad for whole line of ships that don't need this , as they already not used. I always loved Ferox hull, but never had real reason to fly one.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |