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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
4917
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:00:16 -
[1] - Quote
As announced last night on the o7 show, we have a list of high-impact balance changes planned for Scylla.
One of those changes is a reduction in rate of fire for all medium railguns by 7.5% for all types.
Back in 2013 we did a balance pass on all medium long range turrets, which in general had a very positive effect on the balance of usage. While we are happy with the results, we do see the improvement to rails may have gone a bit too far and the result is a strong pressure to field rail platforms: Moas, Tengus, Vultures, Proteii, Eagle, etc.
There are of course many contributing factors to the popularity of those ships, but railguns are simply the simplest angle of attack for us when it comes to having a small impact on all of them at once.
You can find a more detailed description of the situation in this dev blog (coming out later today).
Looking forward to your feedback.
@ccp_rise
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
758
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:02:53 -
[2] - Quote
ed: First :D
That's pretty heavy for a first pass, but needed. |
Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill A Nest of Vipers
127
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:03:25 -
[3] - Quote
I hope you did your math on this. It seems to be a step in right direction. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15247
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:04:15 -
[4] - Quote
At first look I am not too concerned.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Swanky nutjob
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:09:33 -
[5] - Quote
Did you factor in rails are one of the few systems which can hit out to ranges that Ishtars orbit at? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15247
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:10:45 -
[6] - Quote
Swanky nutjob wrote:Did you factor in rails are one of the few systems which can hit out to ranges that Ishtars orbit at?
rate of fire wont change that. Ishtars are also getting nerfed too.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
998
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:15:30 -
[7] - Quote
seems good. 250mms in particular were beyond ridiculous and this should tone them down a bit
maybe look at making javelin useful while you're looking at railguns though, that ammo is really bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Anthar Thebess
891
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:20:42 -
[8] - Quote
I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now. Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.
For example. Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter. They die in masses.
I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields. Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.
So NO to rail nerf. Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.
We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Aiyshimin
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
404
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:23:06 -
[9] - Quote
This seems like a sensible tweak. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15249
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:26:33 -
[10] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now. Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.
For example. Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter. They die in masses.
I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields. Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.
So NO to rail nerf. Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.
We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.
Harpy fleet dont use med rails
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
998
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:28:40 -
[11] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now. Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.
For example. Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter. They die in masses.
I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields. Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.
So NO to rail nerf. Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.
We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.
all the ships that use 250mms are pretty strong, so i'm fairly sure you're wrong and targeting the med railguns is a good idea
harpys wont be affected
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
758
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:I think rails where not the issue - they are ok now. Again combining rail guns with the overpowered hulls (eg Tengu) was the only issue.
For example. Harpy gangs are very specific, and are easy to counter. They die in masses.
I think no change to rail guns are necessary - and nerfing them will put again some cruisers out of the fields. Simple additional nerf to Caldari offensive system can solve the Rail Tengu issue once and for all , while not affecting other ships that are now viable.
So NO to rail nerf. Yes to adjusting Tengu Offensive system.
We could also consider changing a bit Eagle for lower optimal , bigger fallof.
Rails were so stupid they were better DPS on hulls not even bonused for them. Railgun stabber had no business out DPSing a projectile stabber, for example.
Eagles are about as common in Eve as they are in the wild. Endangered species. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1101
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:38:13 -
[13] - Quote
Need to run numbers, but this is a bigger hit to dps than people think. Your not going to get too many complaints on this though.
Yaay!!!!
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3529
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:50:50 -
[14] - Quote
Maybe this will slow or cease the posting of "make artillery have better RoF with less alpha to compete with rails" threads. |
Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn Resonance.
116
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:58:11 -
[15] - Quote
Eagle: 5*250mm Railgun T2 - Fed Navy Antimatter Charges 4 Mag Stabs T2 511 DPS - 40.5k+15km range
Eagle: 5*Heavy Neutron Blaster T2 - Fed Navy Antimatter Charges 4 Mag Stabs T2 557 DPS - 5.08k+6.25k range
There really shouldn't be 45 DPS difference between long range guns and close range guns, especially not considering there's also 45km falloff difference as well. +1km = -1 DPS just seems wrong The Rate of Fire nerf should do good to separate them a bit. Not too heavy, likely not too light |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
869
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:02:48 -
[16] - Quote
Was that really all the way back in 2013?? Wow... I feel old. I thought medium railguns were in a pretty good place as is. Can you explain or give numbers to support this nerf?
Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1006
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:06:12 -
[17] - Quote
will it ever be possible to armour tank and fit long range guns?
also will my ferox ever stop having effectively 1 less slot than other BCs? |
Swanky nutjob
The Scope Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:24:40 -
[18] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Swanky nutjob wrote:Did you factor in rails are one of the few systems which can hit out to ranges that Ishtars orbit at? rate of fire wont change that. Ishtars are also getting nerfed too.
I mean't in respect to the overall use of Rails as a platform vs other weapon types. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2736
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:31:11 -
[19] - Quote
So back in Odyssey medium railguns got, +15% damage, +15% ROF, and -15% tracking. This leaves us with effectively +15% damage +7.5% ROF and -15% tracking.
Seems fair enough, 250mm rails were competing with heavy neutron blasters for damage output. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
122
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:55:30 -
[20] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:So back in Odyssey medium railguns got, +15% damage, +15% ROF, and -15% tracking. This leaves us with effectively +15% damage +7.5% ROF and -15% tracking.
Seems fair enough, 250mm rails were competing with heavy neutron blasters for damage output. Just to correct your math, adding 15% ROF and removing 7.5% ROF from that doesn't give +7.5% ROF, it gives +6.375% ROF from original in the result.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Anthar Thebess
895
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:19:36 -
[21] - Quote
I know that harpies are not using med rails. This is just example how you can see if the some combination is not broken.
Harpy fleet have range , dps ...but they are dying. Sometimes whole fleets are gone in the matter of minutes. THIS IS EVE. You shoot something to do 'BOOM' , just to minutes later meet the same fate.
Like you see i also pointed that eagles need some work.
As for rail gun stabber - interesting. Still, remember - hybrids : - do only kin/Thermal damage - use power to shoot
If you see hybrid fleet , you can tank it easily. You can try neut some enemy ships to totally negate their damage.
In case of projectiles - you can easily choose damage type, guns don't use energy, and those guns have high amount of alpha.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Gustav Mannfred
Summer of Mumuit
105
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:26:36 -
[22] - Quote
This could be the end for all the suicide gank moas and vexors in Uedama and Niarja. Welcome back good old arty tornados :)
However, I think a range nerf could be more useful than a damage nerf. Vultures still do a good amount of damage over 100km+
i'm REALY miss the old stuff.-á
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1626
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:35:13 -
[23] - Quote
This nerf is too high!
The tengu is the only rail ship that has seen widespread use recently, and it was nowhere near the ishtar, nor was it getting out of hand.
A nerf was needed, but not that much. And the other ships defnitely didn't need to see so much damage reduction.
Meanwhile, the Ishtar which has triple the use AND selectable tracking AND selectable damage AND higher alpha only losses 17% of its DPS. Why do you hate Caldari so much? Have you seen the anemic DPS of tengus? They are used mainly because they are resilient, not because they are overpowered.
In addition to that, railgun ships don't have drones. AT ALL. Apart from the moa which is a fake rail ship since it doesn't have any range bonuses. Therefore the DPS is even thinner.
What I'd do would be to increase cap consumption of medium rails, increase their tracking and reduce their optimal by the same amount. Therefore resulting in less DPS if you want to keep range equivalent, and same DPS at point blank, point blank DPS being less than overpowered with rails given the ratio tracking vs dps.
What do you think?
Signature Tanking Best Tanking
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1002
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:52:20 -
[24] - Quote
you guys saying the dps is fine as is, just go check the difference between blasters and railguns using antimatter and see for yourself: the dps very similar
now fair enough the railguns have worse tracking, but at the extreme ranges they apply damage the tracking is more than enough to hit even most frigates
i think a dps hit is exactly what medium rails needed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5883
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:56:16 -
[25] - Quote
Seems entirely fair to me. Med rails are too close to blasters in DPS right now tbh.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Wrik Hoover
Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion
105
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:57:08 -
[26] - Quote
ok |
BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
959
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Posted - 2015.02.27 13:59:08 -
[27] - Quote
Same |
Jezza McWaffle
No Vacancies
178
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:07:56 -
[28] - Quote
Seems sensible, they were ridiculous when compared to the other medium long range weaponry, though maybe a little smidge of extra tracking to compensate, only like 3-4%?
C6 Wormhole blog
http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/
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Grookshank
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
45
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:13:30 -
[29] - Quote
I am utterly biased, not even trying to hide that, but are there actually numbers on ships like Moas and Eagles being overused by anyone but us? Is the number of ships we kill and lose maybe influencing your impression of them being overused? We emptied Amarr of medium Railguns when we deceided for them, so I am not pulling that out of thin air.
Note: I am not talking about T3s, but while you want to nerf the Railgu and the Rail-Proteus, you hit the Caldari T1 and T2 cruisers pretty hard (and Gallente cruisers are anything but overusing med rails). Please consider that in weighting your impression of overused. |
Tethys Luxor
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
6
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Posted - 2015.02.27 14:25:29 -
[30] - Quote
Ok Brave, let's train 8.1% more pilots into Eagles to nullify the nerf. |
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