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dalman
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Posted - 2003.10.29 21:39:00 -
[121]
Quote: It's not easy to get a battleship, most of the 30k that play don't have and will never get one. And this getting it back for free concept you have is distorted.
The fact that you are in Mass is prolly the only reason you have a bship at all. Toss everything you got away and start again and see how long it takes to get a bship. That might snap you back to reality.
If I hadn't spent my time mining/chaining for my corp and instead worked only for myself I would have had 10 battleships in my hangar and wouldn't know how to spend my isk.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.10.29 21:45:00 -
[122]
"Then corp B answers: "HAHAHA, no, we only lost 50M isk, you're the n00bs". Because corp B doesn't loose anything from loosing the ships due to the insurance, and as all n00bs they were fitted with equipment not worth more than 5M per ship.
Corp A then realize how ****** up this game is and will probably quit the game quite soon, since each of their ships carried equipment worth 60M each."
... The funny part is, Corp B is quite right... what sort of the 'hardcore gamers' you are talking about, if they don't even know how the insurance works and which part of the 'ship & setup' is really valuable and hard to replace?.. :s
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Chucky
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Posted - 2003.10.29 21:48:00 -
[123]
Duh!! It keeps me in the game knowing I won't have to spend a month casual mining to replace it. I don't belong to a big that can just keep handing them out.
Oh and ok now no one took me up the 45 mill scorp offer I put up. So I'll pay 55 mill for a scorpian full equipted and delivered. Lets see what kind of a response that gets.
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.10.29 22:07:00 -
[124]
Quote: The funny part is, Corp B is quite right... what sort of the 'hardcore gamers' you are talking about, if they don't even know how the insurance works and which part of the 'ship & setup' is really valuable and hard to replace?.. :s
Well, of course they know... But I hope you see the problem. The carebears are turning this game into "Counterstrike in space". Give it some time and everyone in EVE(except Techell and co who are playing it to get as much isk as possilbe) will be flying Scorpions with standard equipment on and talk about how many frags they've made today. I won't be here when that happens. And I doubt anyone else than the 12 year old boys will be.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.10.29 22:09:00 -
[125]
Quote: For those of you who don't understand the problem, I'm gonna write down a scenario:
Corporation A consists of hardcore gamers. But during the last week members from corp B, which are n00bs, has been harrasing corp A, with lots of smacktalk. So corp A decides to show corp B that they really are n00bs.
The situation leads to a big battle between the corps, where both corps have 10 battleships present. Due to the fact that corp A are hardcore gamers and corp B n00bs, the battle ends in a crushing defeats for corp B. The score is 10-3.
So corp A asks corp B: "Now, who are the n00bs? Gonna take ya some time to recover from that, right? :D".
Then corp B answers: "HAHAHA, no, we only lost 50M isk, you're the n00bs". Because corp B doesn't loose anything from loosing the ships due to the insurance, and as all n00bs they were fitted with equipment not worth more than 5M per ship.
Corp A then realize how ****** up this game is and will probably quit the game quite soon, since each of their ships carried equipment worth 60M each.
So despite corp A winning the battle with 10-3, corp A lossed 180M isk while corp B only lossed 50M isk.
Without insurance n00b corp B wouldn't dare say boo to a goose and we'd all end up mining in our battleships.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.10.29 22:10:00 -
[126]
Edited by: j0sephine on 29/10/2003 22:11:24
Oh, and regarding the original point; i think it'd be more interesting if two things were tweaked:
* the insurance fee and payout would be tied directly to the price paid by the ship; it would perhaps mean only the ships purchased through the official market can be insured, which could have nice side effects of at least reducing the ship BPc market, and limiting the activity of the Trade channel :s
it would be still possible to insure the ship all the way to its 100% value. but:
* the main 'hit' from losing a ship would be moved to time needed to manufacture new ship. I mean, currently the production times are ridiculously low; it's possible to build a new lvl.2 battleship in 5 hours or less, i think? o.O Well, picture situation where the production times are along the lines of:
-- for frigate, 1 hour per frigate 'tier', -- for cruiser or indy, 1 day per cruiser tier, -- for battleships, 1 week per tier
... would mean people who lose high class ships have to either wait for their new ship for quite a while, pay a suitable price to get pre-built ship from the market (there would actually be a reason to invest money in ship building, and with the supply now more limited the prices could probably get up) or settle for ship of the lower class as these would be available faster and in greater amount. Which in turn would result in battleships being less frequent, and greater ship diversity... o.O
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2003.10.29 22:43:00 -
[127]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 29/10/2003 22:48:05 I'm not from a mega-corp, and I really think it's safe to say RC are the most broke corp out of the probably 300 or so in this war
We can't replace ships in an hour, but then, we don't need to every hour like some
Anyone saying that us guys pushing for a realistic and gritty system are being elitist is bull****, I haven't had a million to my name in months
(edit - I take that back, Vacuole sent me isk after I she died to us)
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Chucky
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Posted - 2003.10.29 22:55:00 -
[128]
I'm thinking the point here of the whine is, if a corp loses all they're bships you think they are going keep coming at you with cruisers and frigs. Thats not going to happen, they are just going to quit and you'll have to go after another corp. And after a while there won't be anymore corps.
You assume all ships are lost in combat, when many are lost bugs and exploits. And still no I recieved no offers on a 55 mill scorp, which is more than you can get from issurance.
But go ahead CCP, take away insurance and put the final nail in the coffin. And I'll be here saying I told you so.
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2003.10.29 22:59:00 -
[129]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 29/10/2003 23:00:01 "if a corp loses all they're bships you think they are going keep coming at you with cruisers and frigs."
IM FIGHTING A WAR. I DONT WANT THEM TO KEEP COMING, I WANT THE MOTHER******* TO ALL ******* DIE. YOU ARE AN IMBECILE, GOD DAMNIT
In case you didn't know, the CA is outnumbered 5 or 6 to 1, we won't run out of enemies to kill before we get bored of the game
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Chucky
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Posted - 2003.10.29 23:08:00 -
[130]
Actually your playing a game, step away from the computer and take a walk out the door. There are no insured Battleships waiting outside the door.
Quote: Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 29/10/2003 23:00:01 "if a corp loses all they're bships you think they are going keep coming at you with cruisers and frigs."
IM FIGHTING A WAR. I DONT WANT THEM TO KEEP COMING, I WANT THE MOTHER******* TO ALL ******* DIE. YOU ARE AN IMBECILE, GOD DAMNIT
In case you didn't know, the CA is outnumbered 5 or 6 to 1, we won't run out of enemies to kill before we get bored of the game
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2003.10.29 23:14:00 -
[131]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 29/10/2003 23:14:34 Great work. Go and be an anal-retentive ****, go **** up someone else's thread
"Oh you moron, you didn't shoot the enemy, you gave a command to your computer so an ingame character could"
Shut the **** up
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Chucky
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Posted - 2003.10.29 23:18:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Chucky on 29/10/2003 23:19:13 Actually I had a nice vowel movement this morning, for you IÆd suggest more fiber.
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2003.10.29 23:20:00 -
[133]
Edited by: BobGhengisKhan on 29/10/2003 23:21:56 "Vowel movement." Right.
Just tell me how removing insurance will destroy the game, as opposed to npcs funding every failure and making wars impossible to win
Tell me what we'd be missing if you and half of the CFS left the game next week
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Chucky
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Posted - 2003.10.29 23:24:00 -
[134]
Common sense
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2003.10.29 23:32:00 -
[135]
Right, nevermind, forget I said that, wanna stick to insurance
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Chucky
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Posted - 2003.10.29 23:45:00 -
[136]
Confusous say ôfighting an infinite war is better mining infinite roidsö
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
Belzavior
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Posted - 2003.10.29 23:59:00 -
[137]
I'ld also like to see insurence on a scaling premium, so that people whom lose ships regularly get charged more for their insurence. Sure you can lose your BS to spawn campers and whatnot, but you still get your pretty BS back. The problem is if you constantly getting nailed by these campers then no you are truly too idiotic to be piloting a BS.
I also don't see this as hurting pvp, in fact I see it as the opposite where as most will be alot of fighting in cruisers and frigates with maybe a BS or 2 in the mix, rather than Everyone in the fight haveing BS's wich is boring and dumb. Battle ships were meant to be flag ships not the standard for all fleets. Seeing how flying in a cruiser or frigate would be norm others wouldn't fret to join in pvp.
However because battleships are the norm, most cruiser and frigate pilots are scared to participate because its pretty much suicide.
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Anaguma deTournet
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Posted - 2003.10.30 00:53:00 -
[138]
The Thread Thus Far (Since we're on Page 8, I thought a recap was in order; if your opinion was missed, feel free to repost. This is a very brief overview of the opinions presented.)
The oppositions to the nerfing of insurance seem to fall into three main areas:
1) It protects people from lag, glitches, griefers, and exploits. 2) A lost ship (espectially a battleship) is too time-consuming and boring to replace. 3) The loss of insurance will sound the death knell for PvP.
The rebuttals have been mostly along the lines of:
1) These are mostly avoidable by using caution and your map. 2) This makes it all the more precious and enables meaningful warring. 3) It will not; it will convince some people to fight in smaller ships instead - and increased ship diversity is something everyone seems to agree is important.
Editorial: It seems that CCP ought to have a look at insurance, with an eye toward what they'd like their game to be in a year or two. With insurance as it stands, it'll be necessary to continue introducing content at a breakneck pace to avoid losing customers, and it'll become similar to many of the treadmill RPGs which are already out there. It's my personal opinion that nerfing insurance to some extent (the payout being multiplied by the system security level of loss, for instance) will do more to establish the empire-building aspect of the game than it would hurt the loner types who want to cruise around in a battleship because it's cool. It will also make space safer for newbies by having fewer capital ships out there; if pirates are working as frigate fleets instead, a couple cruisers (or a lone battleship) might have a chance. Might not, but it'd be more even than it is now.
There have been many good ideas put forward for ways to modify insurance without removing it completely; one or more of these ought to be implemented as soon as possible.
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Turtle
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Posted - 2003.10.30 03:42:00 -
[139]
I've been watching this thread all day and I must say everybodys point is valid. That is the real problem.
Dropping insurance will not make PvP better instead at best no one will partake in it, at worst everyone quits.
As it is most people never go to 0.0 space. This has nothing to due with losing there ship but rather losing all there implants and modules which in most cases cost as much as a BS.
With no insurance in the game you will have no wars. The death penalty is just to high. IMO Eve's death penalty is aready the worst of all the current crops of games. I'm not taking about the ships cost but everything else again. So I make 2 mill on a scorp lose maybe but that comes now near what it will take to re-equip the ship.
As to winning a war you really can't do that in the conventional sense. If you take away the enemys ability to fight what you will do at best is delay the battles for a week or 2, long enough for them to ninja mine there replacements. In the worst case they just leave the game. You may of one the battle but in the end you lose the war, not enough people left to keep subs up.
If you want to win a war you need to control the systems of the enemy. Not just for a few hours but day in and day out until they cry uncle. If you control there space it does matter whether they get insurance or not. They can't get out to mine of buy a ship.
Of course is that want you really want. No one to battle day in and day out. hmm sounds like we are going back to a mining sim again.
It wasn't that long ago that CCP extended insurance from 1 week to 3. I'll bet that the NPC corp is making more than it shells out. Very few people are in active battle. And I can't stand to lose a ship and I fight 50% of the time. My record for a ship staying alive is 9 weeks. I just don't like the day or 2 I loose having to get everything back together or the month or 2 to replace my modules.
Long rambling post. At the end of it all I don't really care. As long as the game is fun I'll be here. Take insurance away and the fun maybe gone. I worked very hard to get where I'm at playing all aspects of the game. My ship is everything, all my investment are in it. If I lost it with no insurance I'm not sure I would stick around. I don't feal like spending another 4+ months getting a battleship. I hate covering the same ground twice.
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Serge
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Posted - 2003.10.30 11:43:00 -
[140]
Reducing the insurance payout seems to be the only point where everyone can agree to?
Well, then lets try to get insurance payout lowered!
Please CCP, reduce insurance payout a little bit (not 50% but maybe 20-30%). ***********************************************
... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha |
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Dark Elf
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Posted - 2003.10.30 12:05:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Dark Elf on 30/10/2003 12:08:34 So whats the exact problem with the insurance - The other day I take out full insurance on my Blackbird and go out for a stroll around in Fix.
Get BB shot up taking on Cyrus (in a tempest) - Should really have checked local and noticed he had backup.
After spending time locating new BB and re-equiping new BB with weps and ECM kit etc getting a new clone and reinsuring BB I had 2 million less than when I started out that morning.
If I hadnt of taken out insurance (costing 1 mill) I would have been 4 mill down
I really cant see where I gain anything other than having to worry less about loosing a ship (its still cost me isk)
And since this is a PvP game and I refuse to log in battle (even when out numbered and can no longer get away) Why should I have to spend all my time making Isk just so I can maybe do some PvP.
I though games where played to have fun
Edit - Maybe i do not make ISK on insurance as I buy all my ships on market not ultra cheap from trade channel or BYOM deals. Please try to rem that if CPP balance insurance for market then it will be imbalanced for peeps who make there own/BPC deals.
If CPP Balance it for BPC/BYOM deals then peeps buying on market are FUBARed
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Serge
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Posted - 2003.10.30 13:12:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Serge on 30/10/2003 13:13:08 Did I say reduce insurance payout?
Silly me
Nah, not atm!!!
After workinig long and hard for my 1st BS I had to work on to even be able to buy the standard insurance! I simply lacked the money to buy a better one!!
Was a good idea to insure my ship cause next I did after insuring my ship was to visit tank and his bunch of kiddies in Sarum prime. I wrote a post about this incident in "crime and punishment" .. its a story about warping in to fight and gettin chased out by 3 CTDs in a row ...
As soon as various issues such as clientsynchronisation, CTDs and CTD-causing modules and more are RESOLVED then I¦m ok with nerfing insurance fees!
***********************************************
... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha |
Sintar
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Posted - 2003.10.30 14:21:00 -
[143]
As rule I tend to lurk in the forums and don't post but this time I've something new..... a constructive suggestion !
Sorry if this has been menioned already but I'm posting in my lunch break and got bored reading at about page 4 so skipped to the end. Anyway, I totally agree with the suggestion that the security status you operate in should affect your insurance cost and here is my suggestion....
Player A buys a policy from company Z (so station or maybe corp) and the policy is indefinate for that ship but can be cancelled. Defined in the terms of the policy is the payout amount and premium charged on entering a system based on the security rating. So if Player A is a miner who just stays in a 1.0 system then the premium is dirt cheap & virtually nothing. Player B who is a trader working a route which passes through a low sec system is charged a rate appropiate to each system as he/she enters. Now Player C who is a PvP rat hunter in 0.0 space who be charged lots but then thats high risk isn't it ? So the more active a player is the more the premium costs. If I login for 3 hours a day why should I pay the same as someone who plays 23/7 ?
Finally player pirates take the highest risk of all by the nature of the profession so wouldn't be able to get insurance at all. Maybe having insurance only available in 1.0 systems and only to people with a positive sec rating for the faction controling that region ?
As for the payout amount then this is the complicated bit and open to much debate (see last 8 pages ) but maybe there could be a way of monitoring the average price of a ship through market sales (not sell orders). This would also need a system to stop people insuring a BS only to fly to the nearest 0.0 for not much premium and destroy the ship for a 80% payout.
Oh, finally the payout should NEVER be more than the purchase price. If the car you'd just bought for 10k was was written off would you really get 10k or more like 8/9k depending on book price ? Also the insurance company wouldn't give any extra for the 4k extra spent on a respray & body kit !
Just my thoughts.... Sin
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Jernau Gurgeh
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Posted - 2003.10.30 14:56:00 -
[144]
Quote:
But I was told yesterday that if you buy the top insurance for a scorpion it costs 20 million, you get paid back 74 mil, and a corpmate is getting his scorp for 52 mil.
This isn't as good a deal as it first appears.
With the highest level of insurance you get back the full cost of the ship, plus the cost to insure it - so I assume in your example above the Scorpion was in fact bought for 54m.
In fact, the cost would have been 74m, because your friend paid out 20m to insure the ship. Now, if he can buy a new Scorpion for 52m, it may look as though he's making 2m on the deal. It's possible that he would, but he wouldn't get any money to replace his modules that in the meantime have been pinched by the first ship to go past. How many people do you know who fly battleships with less than 2m in equipment fitted?
Granted, there is an exploit where people can go out and self-destruct their ship to get insurance money, but then it could be argued that to make any money doing this you would have had to pay over the odds for your ship in the first place.
The obvious solution to this would be to stop insurance payouts for ships that are self destroyed, or destroyed by corpmates.
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
Teeth
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Posted - 2003.10.30 15:52:00 -
[145]
Linking insurance to security ratings would be good. It makes sense and it would give some meaning to having security ratings. Only allowing base insurance would be a good fix IMO as well. As it is, if you have the money, taking out max insurance and getting blown up at the end of the period invalidates all other insurance levels.
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.10.30 17:03:00 -
[146]
Quote:
Quote:
But I was told yesterday that if you buy the top insurance for a scorpion it costs 20 million, you get paid back 74 mil, and a corpmate is getting his scorp for 52 mil.
This isn't as good a deal as it first appears.
With the highest level of insurance you get back the full cost of the ship, plus the cost to insure it - so I assume in your example above the Scorpion was in fact bought for 54m.
In fact, the cost would have been 74m, because your friend paid out 20m to insure the ship. Now, if he can buy a new Scorpion for 52m, it may look as though he's making 2m on the deal. It's possible that he would, but he wouldn't get any money to replace his modules that in the meantime have been pinched by the first ship to go past. How many people do you know who fly battleships with less than 2m in equipment fitted?
Granted, there is an exploit where people can go out and self-destruct their ship to get insurance money, but then it could be argued that to make any money doing this you would have had to pay over the odds for your ship in the first place.
The obvious solution to this would be to stop insurance payouts for ships that are self destroyed, or destroyed by corpmates.
I've seen many people, as I've already described. To make "good" use of a Scorpion you don't need more than 1M skill points and modules for 4M isk.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Belzavior
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Posted - 2003.10.30 17:12:00 -
[147]
My pref is that it should be based on your track record. 1 or 2 losses of your ship no biggy. You still get will get your loved and cherished battleship back with little investment on your part. This allows for the unfortunate lag deaths, stuck issues, and an occasional oversight.
However those whom are repeatidly losing their ships will start seeing a massive mark up in their premiums as they are a high risk pilot.
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