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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.21 23:55:00 -
[31]
Neuter newbie courier missions / emphasize buying stuff in the same system(s) - and spawn EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER EVER with Afterburner I and a Civilian AB. Travel times are fine, but having newbies fly around in slow ships on long courier missions or doing 30 jumps to buy stuff obviously puts people off.
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards
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Posted - 2006.09.21 23:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Zeknichov The problem is the time it takes to get from point a to point b without warp. To travel 10KM going 100m/s it takes me 1 minute and 40 seconds.
CCP gave you access to Afterburners, nanos, overdrives, and microwarp drives. Use them. _______________
The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
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Sphit Ker
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Posted - 2006.09.21 23:58:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: Zeknichov The problem is the time it takes to get from point a to point b without warp. To travel 10KM going 100m/s it takes me 1 minute and 40 seconds.
CCP gave you access to Afterburners, nanos, overdrives, and microwarp drives. Use them.
Even when nanoed to hell with MWD traveling is still as trilling as taking the bus.
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Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards
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Posted - 2006.09.22 00:01:00 -
[34]
You're right, let's just let everyone instantly warp to any location they desire, that'd certainly work wonders for the game.. Travelling is a part of eve, like it or hate it. _______________
The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
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Gonada
Gallente Cross Roads
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Posted - 2006.09.22 00:27:00 -
[35]
travel time is OK as it is
why does the OP keep doing debates?
you get jumpclones
you get AB's fast ships ect ect.
you want majic instatravel? go back to wow.
and ya flamed sorry but really, whats with the topics nowdays?
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Betonela
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2006.09.22 00:31:00 -
[36]
ToxicFire the travel is not realistic
u just cross planets and moons imagine that u get a planet on the way jump at planet and after at gate that is realistic
join on New Movement of Market Traders |
Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.09.22 00:40:00 -
[37]
Travel is a major annoyance in EVE and the 'world is already too small' argument doesn't hold water, IMHO.
The old timers remember of Ultima Online where you could 'bookmark' any place in the world and 'jump' to it instantly: it was simply great.
EVE is designed around space conquest so the only reason not to allow insta-travel is to allow territorial claims, but it only slows the game down.
The discussion is pretty moot anyways, nothing's going to change on the matter.
____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships |
Andicuri Vas
Gallente Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.22 01:21:00 -
[38]
I've always considered the greatest thing about EVE is that it doesn't give a **** whether I like it or not.
It is what it is.....Space, and lots of it.
A V Your e-peen is too large, please read the forum rules before reposting - Tirg |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.22 01:24:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Sorja
The old timers remember of Ultima Online where you could 'bookmark' any place in the world and 'jump' to it instantly: it was simply great.
I remember UO before you could portal around. It was much better.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.09.22 01:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Sorja Travel is a major annoyance in EVE and the 'world is already too small' argument doesn't hold water, IMHO.
The old timers remember of Ultima Online where you could 'bookmark' any place in the world and 'jump' to it instantly: it was simply great.
EVE is designed around space conquest so the only reason not to allow insta-travel is to allow territorial claims, but it only slows the game down.
The discussion is pretty moot anyways, nothing's going to change on the matter.
WTB WH VT!!! --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2006.09.22 03:04:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Kerfira on 22/09/2006 03:06:27 I don't think the main issue is travel time as such. It wouldn't really matter how long it took to get to/from a gate if you didn't HAVE to! The reasons so many people feel the need to travel are many, but seen from empire dwellers point of view (I have both carebear and 0.0 PvP characters...) it is pretty simple:
There is not enough content in any small area to keep a player entertained!
To be brutally honest, there are only a few star systems in the EVE universe that holds content interesting for players: 1. Trade hubs like Jita (shudders..) 2. High-level agent systems like Motsu/Aramachi 3. Cosmos systems 4. High-value 0.0 systems 5. Chokepoint systems (camping grounds) All the rest, which is by far the majority, are really rather useless, and most players just zoom through them and never stops.
The consider the different things you do in EVE: 1. 0.0 Warfare. Lots of travel! 2. Trade. Lots of travel! 3. Mission running. Lots of local travel (getting to missions). 4. Mining. Lots of local travel (bringing ore back). 5. Choke point gate camping. Not much travel... 6. Equipping ships. Lots of travel getting stuff!
Basically this means that you can't play EVE in an enjoyable way without doing a lot of travel!
Some people don't mind spending half an hour travelling from one place to another, but a lot of others (and I dare claim that it is by far the majority of players), simply don't want to spend theit limited gaming time watching their ship crawl towards gate after gate!
So we have two groups of players, one the EVE fanatics (meant in a good way) who don't mind long travel times since it makes EVE seem big, and one consisting of the more casual players who want their (limited) game time to be fun all the time. EVE NEEDS both groups! The first group creates a lot of the EVE atmosphere (alliances, wars, etc.), and the second group brings in money to develop the game! Both groups can only be accomodated if there wasn't a NEED to travel.... but there is :-/
Personally, I would prefere EVE to be a big universe, where it took maybe 6 hours to travel from one end to the other. Unfortunately, (imho) that would kill the game since I think we'd loose all the casual players.
I realistically can see only one way the EVE universe can be made 'big', and that is if enough content were introduced by CCP so that EACH and EVERY star system actually held enough content so a player didn't NEED to travel more than 1-2 jumps to satisfy his needs. That'll be a tough job, and not something easily accomlished! You'd need to be able to buy ships and equipment locally, you'd need to have cosmos missions everywhere, you'd need to have high-level agents everywhere (which didn't stop working for 4 hours if you wanted to turn down 2 missions), you'd need to make all of 0.0 profitable (instead of just a few systems), etc. Not easy at all!!!
Then, and only then, could travel time be increased so EVE became a truly big universe. Until then, to keep both player groups, travel time need to be short. |
Dilandil Ma'al
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Posted - 2006.09.22 04:13:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Dilandil Ma''al on 22/09/2006 04:14:17
Originally by: Garramon
Originally by: ToxicFire Just to tag on an idea travel time might also be the reason the chinese server population nose dived, because I heard they're paying in realtime for the ammount they play. So high travel time is going to translate to high cost which is gonna be a big put off.
China pays just like we do.
But internet service rates are more expensive in China
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.09.22 04:21:00 -
[43]
I tend to like travel times the way they are, though I'm not sure how I'd feel about it after another year of playing. If there is a problem, I think Kerfira is right that it's more about content and less about the length of time it takes to get places.
I'll go a step further and say that it's just as much a lack of player-made content--interaction, in other words--that causes the issue. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Wrayeth
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.22 04:49:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 22/09/2006 04:49:30
Originally by: Avon The problem isn't travel time, if anything it is too short.
Are we playing the same game?
Quote: The question is, why do people feel the need to travel so far?
Um...I know you're in BoB, but do you PvP, like, at all? Sometimes you have to go pretty far afield to find targets you can engage. If you're an industrialist and generally stick to the same few systems all the time, travel time isn't much of an issue. For a PvPer it's a pain in the ass and can be a reason not to log in.
Personally, I support a warp to 0km option (with the caveat that it must be manually selected and can't be used on autopilot), as it would make the game much less frustrating. At the same time, it would solve the insta-lag problem. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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Estelle Matsuko
Caldari The Beiatch Corp Inc
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Posted - 2006.09.22 04:56:00 -
[45]
Quite happy with the time it takes to travel.....but then i¦m not one of the "It¦s my right and I want it NOW" generation.
Travel time forces people to PLAN instead of just clicking a button for instant gratification.
Think of travel time as a "L33t kiddie" filter, those that can¦t hack it leave, and EvE is the better for it.
If as you say, travel time IS a limiting factor in bringing new people into EVE, then I say it¦s a good thing. The server Hamsters are already at full stretch as it is.
I¦d be OK with a skill that increases warp speed by 3-5% per level, but apart from that, leave travel time alone.
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.22 22:48:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Um...I know you're in BoB, but do you PvP, like, at all? Sometimes you have to go pretty far afield to find targets you can engage.
Why is this, do you think?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Sidious Lord
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Posted - 2006.09.25 02:42:00 -
[47]
As far as I can see it a major reason that people travel is to buy things slightly cheaper a few jumps away. The game was set up so some people could act as traders moving stuff around to sell at a profit, but people would rather travel a few jumps than spend 5% more on the product. Its a similar thing as with the Tech 1 market, really the game was meant to have dedicated builders with everyone else doing their little bit in the game, and dabbling arond but in no major way. However a lot of players, myself included, would rather build stuff themselves, whichout really taking into account the time it takes to mine and such. Its a similar problem.
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Darkenral
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Posted - 2006.09.25 03:42:00 -
[48]
OT but i gota say GREAT SIG estelle ;)
Dark
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Dukath
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Posted - 2006.09.25 05:54:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sidious Lord As far as I can see it a major reason that people travel is to buy things slightly cheaper a few jumps away. The game was set up so some people could act as traders moving stuff around to sell at a profit, but people would rather travel a few jumps than spend 5% more on the product. Its a similar thing as with the Tech 1 market, really the game was meant to have dedicated builders with everyone else doing their little bit in the game, and dabbling arond but in no major way. However a lot of players, myself included, would rather build stuff themselves, whichout really taking into account the time it takes to mine and such. Its a similar problem.
This is very true. Most of the travel players complain about is self imposed because they want that tiny bit more, that little bit cheaper than the rest. They only look at raw isk numbers without realising that time is money. Like someone who takes a car and checks out 20 different shops to save maybe 5 euros, while spending 10 euros on fuel. Eve is full of people like that.
Also the low travel time causes inflation, not just in isk but in everything which is killing the game. The sense of achievement is gone but its all so easy to do. Maintaining a POS is no longer an achievement but a job. why? because its so easy so people setup more and more. The value of having a single POS is worth nothing in achievement value since everyone and their dog has one. Thus all the work done to maintain yet another POS feels like a chore.
Eve online is not built around single player 'levelling' and farming to get the best equipment. Thanks to its single shard eve is interesting due to its history. The creation of the first alliances, CA vs SA, the great northern war, there are several examples of player driven events that have marked this game.
However since instajumps have become more and more used, since more and more farmers and levellers with short attention span have joined the focus has shifted with as result the prevalent attitute described in the post i quoted. People will rather do 10 extra jumps than pay 1 mill extra on an item they want to buy. And afterwards of course they complain about long travel times.
Also this kind of player does not provide player content, in stead they rely on CCP provided content to keep themselves amused. When things get rough they evade the fight rather than go fully in. They dock in NPC stations, they log, ... They are not interested in creating history, only in acquiring more and more 'wealth', which is losing it worth fast since so many others are doing the same making it all worthless again. You do not achieve anything with doing that, this CCP must add more content or the 'players' will get bored.
What eve really needs right now is a huge deflation caused by the removal of instajumps without replacing it with anything at all.
1) people complain about ganksquads being able to roam with impunity. Without instajumps their movement will be slowed giving defending alliances a chance to organise and push them out. In general conflict will happen more at borders of alliances than simply anywhere at all. Since borders are the conflict points and thus more predictable less travel on average in conflicts.
2) 8 new regions are added to the game, this is a prime example of bad inflation. This is not needed at all. Without instajumps alliances will shrink and leave room to new alliances to move in. 0.0 will be packed more densely creating more neighbours overall to have fights with.
3) every couple of weeks there is another post asking to nerf warp core stabs. There is not that much wrong with warp cores (for the record i havent used any for about a year now) except that there is no penalty. Losing 1 lowslot is nothing simply because there is no need for travel setups. Why fit nanos, overdriver? Just insta to the gate right? Of course then people start complaining about gatecamps when they die because their insta missed or they
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Micia
Minmatar N.A.S.A.
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Posted - 2006.09.25 06:04:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Bill Shankly
Quote: China pays just like we do. For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
if you think thats hillarious, id get out a bit more. Sunshine is your friend.
That last line is actually part of Garramon's sig, and gets attached to (and causes much confusion in) many threads.
But back on topic... I don't think there's anything wrong with long travel times. If everything was accesible within a few jumps, supplies, planning & logistics would become meaningless. _______
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Dukath
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Posted - 2006.09.25 06:05:00 -
[51]
got bubbled. This week i got past 2 gatecamps (5 bships and a frig shooting me) with bubbles in an enyo. Not exactly the fastest or best ship around. I had to slowboat 18 km to a gate due to getting stuck in a bubble. This was not a problem because i actually fitted omg a setup that incorporated travel. I always do that since i refuse to use instas. I did about 25 jumps solo in hostile space that way. Sure they got me to 20% armor but then i reached the gate and jumped, they had aggression so couldn't follow. 0.0 is not that dangerous if you fit your ship correctly. But then again, its the i want 2% more without paying for it that gets in the way. I want more damage so i'll sacrifice speed since speed doens't do anything. Oh btw, travel time is a problem in eve, its too large.
4) POS wars. They happen because of low travel times/instas. With travel not so easy anymore it will become much harder to keep a pos running. With as end result that people will use only POSes when they actually need one. Not this silly lets place one at every moon in this 40 moon system so nobody else can anchor one. Right now 5 people can easily operate 30 to 40 poses. So having a POS means nothing, every alliance has many. Thus a pos loses its value. Maintaining something without value is a chore. Maintaining something with high value is an achievement. Guess which one feels best. Higher travel time should lower the number of active poses by a large amount. This will not only reduce POS wars but also put value back for those people maintaining the POSes, as soon as their alliance realises they don't really need 60 poses to survive.
There are a lot more issues of inflation caused by low travel times that are bad for the game. So basically, remove instas and let the game recover and get back to 'normal' parameters. Instas are like a high sugar diet. Short bursts of energy but on the long term its very bad for you. Getting back to a healthy diet is very hard but its also worth it.
PS: i know the doomsayers will pound on this saying half of eve will quit, 0.0 will empty, blah blah. I believe this is not true. Sure you will lose some kilos of fat when you stop the bad living style with lots of sugar, but once the fat is gone you will gain weight again due to buildup of muscle. And to be honest i rather have muscle than fat in eve online.
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Android Mindslave
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.09.25 06:33:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kurlieu ravel time as it is now is not a real problem for me.
One enhancement I've thought about is the concept of a "deep jump". This ability/skill might be a part of the Navigation skill tree and perhaps be a level 5 skill of some sortthat required a month or so of training time. That can be worked out.
Anyway, a "deep jump" would allow one to circumvent a fairly large number of gates to get rather deep into 0.0 space with perhaps one "deep jump" capable gate in each empire region. {gates would be two-way)They can either be special gates, or perhaps standard gates with a pull down tab of some sort to select where you'd like to "deep jump" to, IF you have the "deep jump" navigation skill.
There might be a need for a "camp free zone" in 0.0 space of some kind, but that could be worked out. In Empire there would only be twenty some "deep jump" gates with a similar number in 0.0.
Anyway, just a thought.
For real. We could just limit it to only some ships that could do it though.
Jump Drives sounds like a good name for a skill like this. Heck, we could even allow people to train even another skill that would let them jump even FARTHER.
Heck, they could even give some ships the ability to open a big portal to another system to let other ships jump through it.
Heck, I bet they could even add a starbase structure that let you jump between two starbases. Although that sounds like it would take a little longer to implement.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2006.09.25 06:47:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/09/2006 06:48:17
Originally by: Dukath Stuff... (I really hate quoting a long post)
I think you're dead wrong in your initial argument that travel is mostly used to get the best deal possible. In my experience as a trader (yes, I have one of those too), I can put up stuff at 10 times their Jita value 4 jumps from Jita, and people will still happily buy it to avoid travel. Trade hubs like Jita gets travelled to because things are AVAILABLE there (everything you need for a ship fit), not because it is cheap (though the intense competition keeps it so too).
Please look at my post above to see what I think are the prime reasons people travel. The basic problem we have is NOT travel time (if there is a problem at all that is). The (possible) problem is that EVE does not offer enough content for players to stay entertained WITHOUT a lot of travel!
You may as well accept now that there are two types (probably more) of players in EVE, the dedicated (hardcore) and the casual players. The casual players are the ones who don't want long travel times (well, also a LOT of the hardcore players I know). CCP has to cater to both groups, which was probably why Oveur said that any insta solution had to retain the ease of travel brought by instas. They know well enough that the hardcore players will generally stay no matter what, and that the casual players will leave to another game if they get bored. A lot of hardcore players will now utter that "the f'ing nubs should just leave and make the game as it was back in the old days", but that is a pretty stupid way of thinking. CCP has to make money, so they have to retain their customers. That means, among other things, short travel times for the casual players (at least until there is a lot more content available)!
Accept that the world is changing!!! It will do so no matter what...
Also please note that the OP specifically asked that this was NOT a thread about instas, but you try to turn it into exactly that. Please don't hijack threads.
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Skawl
GeoTech
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Posted - 2006.09.25 07:16:00 -
[54]
I quite like that travel takes a while. It means people tend to stick to an area which builds localised communities, outside of the normal corp structure.
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Aodha Khan
Minmatar Blood Inquisition
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Posted - 2006.09.25 08:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Avon
The question is, why do people feel the need to travel so far?
Exactly.
Say I'm doing a combat mission. Takes me 1 minute to get to the mission location from the station. (usually in system or maybe 1 jump)
Now, compare that to any other MMORPG.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
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Tek'a Rain
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2006.09.25 08:22:00 -
[56]
travel sure aint the largest bite outta my day. loot collecting, sure. sorting vast piles of junk, scrap and assorted shine, definatly.
sometimes I Do need to go far afield, and can accept that. travel setup, little bit of number crunching (can I just take the Exeq' and bring everything at that station home in one trip, faster?)
think local. act local. live local.
Center For Advanced Studies Drone Research and Enhancement Dept |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.25 08:43:00 -
[57]
Space is big.
Really, really big.
The way travel times are at the moment, Eve seems almost as big.
This is a good thing.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.25 10:52:00 -
[58]
Travel time, especially with instas is an ongoing problem. However, I don't think it's too slow. If anything, it's too easy to 'pop to Jita, for $mod'. So everyone does.
IMO there should be 'availability of content' to be deployed locally. It should, in my opinion, be quite possible to set up in a single constellation, and basically never leave, except very occasionally.
Now, the simplest, most obvious way of doing that is slowing travel further - business opportunities and profit margin increase as the 'opportunity cost' of going and buying that mod over there decreases.
If people are insta-ing about, then it's still too easy to 'go shopping' 10 jumps away.
Tech 2 is the major sticking point - you have a finite number of BPOs, so you'll tend to get hub based production. Not quite sure the solution, but maybe something to do with remote production. (e.g. virtual blueprint can be used in different location, but only one at a time).
However, there's still some stuff that's problematic. The major one being POS trade goods. They're a) bulky and b) limited in availability. Trade routes are fine, and AFK freighters kinda work, but I'm not convinced that AFK alts are a good thing for EVE as a whole.
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Taram Caldar
Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.09.25 11:13:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 25/09/2006 11:16:57
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sorja
The old timers remember of Ultima Online where you could 'bookmark' any place in the world and 'jump' to it instantly: it was simply great.
I remember UO before you could portal around. It was much better.
Um You could ALWAYS recall and Gate in UO... unless you were in the Alpha? because I was in Beta 2 onward and we always had Gate and Recall. And, yes.... it was awesome
But... Sorja: You can already jump instantly to places in EVE: Train Infomorph Psychology and buy Jump clones. If you train it to 5 you can have 5 areas you can instantly jump to.
That said, on the whole topic of travel time: IMNSHO Travel should have a slight tweak to it: In EMPIRE space based on Security level allow people to warp closer to the gate. For each .1 above 0.0 decrease the minimum warp distance by 1km.
IE: 0.1 SEC: Warp to within 14km 0.2 SEC: Warp to within 13km 0.3 SEC: Warp to within 12km 0.4 sec: Warp to within 11km 0.5 sec: Warp to within 10km 0.6 sec: Warp to within 9km 0.7 sec: Warp to within 8km 0.8 sec: Warp to within 7km 0.9 sec: Warp to within 6km 1.0 sec: Warp to within 5km
Thusly you have RADICALLY reduced travel time in high security space (where it doesn't much matter anyway) and low sec is moderately reduced while 0.0 (and non-empire low-sec) is unchanged.
Thus the universe still remains big. Defending your territory is still just as easy... and it makes "lowsec" just a tad easier to get around in for those who don't have instas.
My next recommendation for getting rid of Instas would be to add a new warp skill that for each level you have it trained reduces your minimum warp distance by 2km. So that at 5 skill you would be able to "Warp to within 5km" in 0.0 and you'd be able to warp right on top of things in .5 or higher Empire space.
Also: Leave the autopilot to default to 15km so that if you autopilot you have to deal with the longer travel time but if you manually warp you can cut the distance. Much like BM's today.
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Mak'shar Karrde
Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.25 11:13:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Sorja The old timers remember of Ultima Online where you could 'bookmark' any place in the world and 'jump' to it instantly: it was simply great.
[Going off on a tangent] I played UO for 7 years and I think it would have been a hell of a lot better without runes/recall. It would have been sweet if people had actually been forced to use boats to travel to the islands. T2A (the no recall allowed area) is where all the most fun PvP fights took place. Originally there was no recalling allowed in Dungeons and that made things better for hunter and hunted alike, they felt like dungeons of which you could go deeper and deeper at increasing risk to survival and escape.
The moongates scattered around the land already provided enough of a shortcut between locations (mainly the big towns), you didn't really need to know the phases of the two moons in order to use them. Without runes/recall people might have chosen to claim certain areas, guarding their dungeon for want of roleplay or mischief, adding to the already rich environment.
In the end hardly anybody knew that Despise was only a 2 minute run from Britain or that both Minoc and Vesper were a short distance from the same moongate. Or even that Hythloth was on an Island. All the supposedly hard to reach places, where you had to trudge through jungle and swamp, defending yourself from poisonous snakes or Lizardmen (etc.), were just a click away...[/Gooat]
But erm... We are given the tools/skills to decrease travel time already. Jumpclones have already made it seem so much smaller. The day when one alliance can move an fleet into another alliance's hub within 20 minutes is a dark day indeed.
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