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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
112
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Posted - 2014.11.22 18:06:17 -
[1] - Quote
According to last devblog by CCP Seagull, there will be coming a new way of rendering that will use shaders more realistically, so far the gif seen looks really shiny, but I went to SISI just to witness it for myself, logged in with my carebearing toons, and found this:
http://i.imgur.com/775B2yt.jpg (discard the image on the right, thats the 3rd monitor and wallpaper.
On the left monitor you can see TQ, on the center you can see SISI.
I've been expecting the upcoming devblog but I can't help it, can't hold myself anymore...
Why does it looks like duck diarrhea?
With the old rendering you can see this chromatic shader rainbow style typical of Sansha ships and all the hues of the green-ish hull, with the new rendering, well, it indeed shines more, but its... dull, I agree that reflecting the enviromental light is a step forward, but don't disregard the original feel of the ships...
I also took a closer look to the ships on the gif, the Apoc looks really nice, relly really nice, also does the Orcale, then I went to see my other favourite ships, the Paladin for example, the red ain't red anymore, looks dull again, damped, yeah I know that the surface is different, its matte, its not supposed to reflect the light in the same fashion than the golden polished surfaces but still... paladin aint golden and red anymore :c it looks shinny gold and damped red.
Kinda the same happens with Gallente ships, I took a closer look at the Brutix, at first glance it looks neater, but when comparing them:
http://i.imgur.com/5QfjrNL.jpg
Same thing happens, shinny parts look good, but matte parts look too damped.
So, what I'm saying about the Nightmare is not the same than the other, about the nightmare I insist that it kinda lost its essence, that rainbow chromatic shader its almost gone, and it looks too much dull green.
About the Paladin and Brutix, what I'm saying is that the matte colours look too dull.
On the other hand I must say that I can appreciate much more the volume created by parallax, which is really nice.
Because tities .
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
6017
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Posted - 2014.11.22 21:54:06 -
[2] - Quote
I've been checking in regularly to see how this work is going. I wouldn't judge too harshly yet, as I'm seeing graphical changes and adjustments being made frequently to these ships. I believe they are still in the process of fine tuning everything with the new system in place.
View the latest EVE Online developments and War Thunder game play by visiting Ranger 1 Presents.
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Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
112
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Posted - 2014.11.22 22:07:05 -
[3] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I've been checking in regularly to see how this work is going. I wouldn't judge too harshly yet, as I'm seeing graphical changes and adjustments being made frequently to these ships. I believe they are still in the process of fine tuning everything with the new system in place.
i really hope so because sansha ships look like duck turd and the paladin was so disappointing
Because tities .
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Leonard Nimoy II
Dark Force Protectorate Special Operators Federation Alliance
86
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Posted - 2014.11.22 22:10:14 -
[4] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I've been checking in regularly to see how this work is going. I wouldn't judge too harshly yet, as I'm seeing graphical changes and adjustments being made frequently to these ships. I believe they are still in the process of fine tuning everything with the new system in place. i really hope so because sansha ships look like duck turd and the paladin was so disappointing
Yer.....along with many of the gallente ships, and angel cartel.....but I would suspect this is not the final product (or at least hope so). |
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
36
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Posted - 2014.11.23 03:48:41 -
[5] - Quote
If this "improvement" was to get unleashed onto TQ I'm pretty sure there would be a riot. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
6759
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 10:22:31 -
[6] - Quote
This gimmicky "oil spill" isn't a realistic thing it seems, and with realistic lightning, it's just gone.
Recon makes them stronger
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Lugh Crow-Slave
227
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Posted - 2014.11.23 11:44:51 -
[7] - Quote
i just want the ware and tear back onto the widow >.> |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp Vae. Victis.
6019
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Posted - 2014.11.23 16:57:30 -
[8] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I've been checking in regularly to see how this work is going. I wouldn't judge too harshly yet, as I'm seeing graphical changes and adjustments being made frequently to these ships. I believe they are still in the process of fine tuning everything with the new system in place. i really hope so because sansha ships look like duck turd and the paladin was so disappointing I'm not that unhappy with the Paladin at the moment, probably because the red area's of that ship have such a distinct texture. That same dark red does not work quite as well on say the Pilgrim or the Crusader where those area's are smooth.
I've considered putting up some comparisons in my Ranger 1 Presents channel on YouTube, but every time I log on and start getting footage I realize things have changed yet again and my video would likely be outdated before I could get it uploaded and released.
View the latest EVE Online developments and War Thunder game play by visiting Ranger 1 Presents.
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Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
112
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 17:18:10 -
[9] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I'm not that unhappy with the Paladin at the moment, probably because the red area's of that ship have such a distinct texture. That same dark red does not work quite as well on say the Pilgrim or the Crusader where those area's are smooth. I've considered putting up some comparisons in my Ranger 1 Presents channel on YouTube, but every time I log on and start getting footage I realize things have changed yet again and my video would likely be outdated before I could get it uploaded and released.
I'm looking forward for the final version and your video :)
Because tities .
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Tarpedo
Incursionista
1409
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 10:51:41 -
[10] - Quote
I like new rendering so much I've purchased Nightmare on TQ immediately after checking Sisi - just to look at it sometimes. (check the ship outside of station - she is beautiful)
p. s. Why there is no diver on second pic? What happened? Is he ok? |
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Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
113
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Posted - 2014.11.24 20:49:19 -
[11] - Quote
Tarpedo wrote:I like new rendering so much I've purchased Nightmare on TQ immediately after checking Sisi - just to look at it sometimes. (check the ship outside of station - she is beautiful)
p. s. Why there is no diver on second pic? What happened? Is he ok? I'm not sure if youre trolling or its just that you have a hell of a bad taste.
Because tities .
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Gungnir Winder
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
167
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Posted - 2014.11.25 22:28:30 -
[12] - Quote
I'm assuming they obviously need to tweak materials shineness (since ships like deimos and stuff look like made out of glass).
But honestly I like ships being more opaque and less shiny. They look more realistic.
What I think it's causing ships to look weird is that the base textures were not made for this lightning rendering, thus looking washed out.
I strongly believe that if they tweak base textures and some shineness setting, eye candy level will be over 9000
My Youtube channel-á Gungnir Winder
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Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
113
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 17:09:53 -
[13] - Quote
Gungnir Winder wrote:What I think it's causing ships to look weird is that the base textures were not made for this lightning rendering, thus looking washed out. I thought about that too, i saw that today they've released the Confessor on SISI so i updated it with the hope of having also updated the textures or tweaked whatever but they have not :c
Because tities .
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Tarpedo
Incursionista
1422
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:45:09 -
[14] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:I'm not sure if youre trolling or its just that you have a hell of a bad taste. Apparently devs have published half-finished (beautiful) variant before, finished color variant (available now) made the ship look like a turd with pikes =(
Well, this is yet another good lesson to never trust devs. |
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
11
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Posted - 2014.12.01 15:48:05 -
[15] - Quote
Most importantly:Tarpedo wrote:p. s. Why there is no diver on second pic? What happened? Is he ok? Second most important, at least they finally made my nighthawk look like it hadn't been sitting in a desert for 100 years.
Though when I started seeing all those used/dirty looking ships I had another thought, what if the ship went through levels of wear after certain set amount of use periods, like it looks a little worn after X months of being fitted and/or used in combat for X number of hours. Then the wear gets worse at the next level etc, and maybe you could send it through the repair shop to clean the windows and rebuff the paint? (and it would give us another ISK sink)
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Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
412
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Posted - 2014.12.01 19:17:48 -
[16] - Quote
the biggest issues I have with the PBJ (sorry hungry), ahem... PBR is that the lighting is too bright on the ships - and washes out or causes the white jagged lines on edges and all that mess...even in high it does it.
EVE needs to be a bit darker - and this can be seen by using the ship preview - then take any ship - look at it from the sun-lit side then look at it from the dark side - and not that the colors, lights and over all everything look better on the dark side of the ship - it's just richer and more realistic, the sun-lit side is washed out, too shiny and detail is lost due to the glare as well as all the optical illusion or shapes being lost.
Also the reds have gone brown again... and much of the grays (grey to you UK'ers) are too light etc... but these are just hue and saturation issues that can be addressed, the real issue I think is the sun-lit to darkness needs a better and less drastic contrast between them, and the sweet spot is less light and bright so that things looks like the enormous space ships they are, and well as long as you are in there - sharp details in dark lighting over fuzzy details in bright lighting wins every time...
Also for god's sake flatten out the colors on the Blackbird hulls and Moa hulls - the shine on them is way too much given the number of sides... it's multi-facet side glare overload... |
Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
113
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 07:46:44 -
[17] - Quote
Well, 4 days left and ships still looking like pure liquid duck crap.
I foresee drama...
Because tities .
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
7
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Posted - 2014.12.05 08:44:35 -
[18] - Quote
I do wish CCP would respond to one of these PBR threads (or the graphics feedback thread) to at least give some indication that they recognize just how much negative feedback PBR on sisi has received so far. |
Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
113
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 10:04:42 -
[19] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:I do wish CCP would respond to one of these PBR threads (or the graphics feedback thread) to at least give some indication that they recognize just how much negative feedback PBR on sisi has received so far. Next thing you will know is that fozzie will post a devblog saying how happy and how wonderful the feedback has been, just as he did on the hyperion release that killed deep wormhole activity, killing small corps, which mine by that time was among...
Because tities .
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CCP Huskarl
C C P C C P Alliance
110
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Posted - 2014.12.05 12:09:54 -
[20] - Quote
Hey pilots
I just want to give you a heads up on the issues related to the PBR (physically based rendering) conversion. I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE. The ships feel more integrated into the scene since the reflection from the nebula has energy now and is actually lightening up the ships, the materials can look and behave very realistic as you can see with the Amarr gold for instance or the bright fresnel on some of the metals.
However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. The textures we are using where not made for PBR and it was a massive undertaking for the art team in a relatively short time to convert the textures and we will need to revisit a lot of them in the future. I-¦m aware of a lot of issues with some of the factions like for instance Sansha that was tweaked before we got the oil part of the PBR shader working properly. We plan to revisit all of them in the future and will look for feedback on the forums.
We are also looking into the "washed out" look and lack of sharpness as well as the dirt and scuffing on the ships looks very rough and flat. We have made some progress there and we will have to work out the best way to implement that as soon as possible.
07 Huskarl |
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Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
41
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Posted - 2014.12.05 13:16:17 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:Hey pilots
Could PBR on TQ be put off until such a time that it doesn't make the majority of the ships look worse than they do now?
I thought the idea of the new release schedule was to allow a feature that's clearly not ready, to be easily pushed back.
PBR is clearly not ready for TQ. |
Worrff
Viziam Amarr Empire
23
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Posted - 2014.12.05 13:31:39 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:The textures we are using where not made for PBR and it was a massive undertaking for the art team in a relatively short time to convert the textures and we will need to revisit a lot of them in the futurel
We have been told that there is sufficient time not to rush stuff into releases. Well that is s load of bollox tbh.
Dont REVISIT.....just wait until it's fixed BEFORE implementing.
FFS you always do this with every release and every "feature". Just STOP until it's sorted.
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Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
62
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Posted - 2014.12.05 15:10:38 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:Hey pilots
I just want to give you a heads up on the issues related to the PBR (physically based rendering) conversion. I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE. The ships feel more integrated into the scene since the reflection from the nebula has energy now and is actually lightening up the ships, the materials can look and behave very realistic as you can see with the Amarr gold for instance or the bright fresnel on some of the metals.
However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. The textures we are using were not made for PBR and it was a massive undertaking for the art team in a relatively short time to convert the textures and we will need to revisit a lot of them in the future. I-¦m aware of a lot of issues with some of the factions like for instance Sansha that was tweaked before we got the oil part of the PBR shader working properly. We plan to revisit all of them in the future and will look for feedback on the forums.
We are also looking into the "washed out" look and lack of sharpness as well as the dirt and scuffing on the ships looks very rough and flat. We have made some progress there and we will have to work out the best way to implement that as soon as possible.
07 Huskarl Sooo, the feedback up until this point will be considered void...and you will only work on anything we mention after this heap hits TQ tuesday? Sounds like a great plan to me!
Also, wasn't the point of this new 'quicker release schedule' supposed to make it easier for you to NOT RELEASE stuff that still needed alot of work?
There are a HUGE amount of very ugly ships right now. (not sure if patch today is changing anything) Will we need to start listing every individual ship that needs work, or will your imbedded QA actually look at things before they are considered "done"? |
Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
113
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 15:29:20 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:Hey pilots
I just want to give you a heads up on the issues related to the PBR (physically based rendering) conversion. I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE. The ships feel more integrated into the scene since the reflection from the nebula has energy now and is actually lightening up the ships, the materials can look and behave very realistic as you can see with the Amarr gold for instance or the bright fresnel on some of the metals.
However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. The textures we are using were not made for PBR and it was a massive undertaking for the art team in a relatively short time to convert the textures and we will need to revisit a lot of them in the future. I-¦m aware of a lot of issues with some of the factions like for instance Sansha that was tweaked before we got the oil part of the PBR shader working properly. We plan to revisit all of them in the future and will look for feedback on the forums.
We are also looking into the "washed out" look and lack of sharpness as well as the dirt and scuffing on the ships looks very rough and flat. We have made some progress there and we will have to work out the best way to implement that as soon as possible.
07 Huskarl Thanks for answering, but don't you think that you guys should wait until its really ready?
Theres even a ******* video on youtube now... WTF
Dont incarna again, srsly... please?
Because tities .
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4002
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Posted - 2014.12.05 16:03:24 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. We've been telling you this for weeks now, so at what point do you guys start to realize that you might need to postpone this?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
527
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Posted - 2014.12.05 17:10:35 -
[26] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:Thanks for answering, but don't you think that you guys should wait until its really ready?
CCP Huskarl, in his post, describes a number of details of ship look that he'd probably characterize as minor issues that he'd like to revisit over time after PBR's release. You largely agree on what the issues are, but you'd characterize them as game-breaking.
These types of questions are the kinds of things on which reasonable artists disagree all the time, and ultimately it comes down to the judgment of the designers on the project.
In EVE, the emotional connection players have to different aspects of the look of ships they fly regularly makes large look changes tricky. A detail that one player might characterize as iconic, or central to the impact of the design, might be seen by an art director as less important to the overall impression of the ship.
Note that our answer to this is not to simply say we know best, but to listen to feedback from the community as an important input to deciding where to focus attention as we improve ships further.
As CCP Huskarl said, we're releasing PBR into the game with the intent to iterate on it, and this necessarily implies that where it will be on Rhea's release day will not be perfect. However, across the range of hundreds of ships, they currently look pretty good, and each ship will at least meet our designers' minimum standard for that ship at release, while many will look much better.
That doesn't mean that your favorite ship might not have lost an element of its look to which you've become attached. What it does mean is that you should offer your feelings about it, as you have here, and we'll iterate on ships as we can.
Quote:I do wish CCP would respond to one of these PBR threads (or the graphics feedback thread) to at least give some indication that they recognize just how much negative feedback PBR on sisi has received so far.
Overall, feedback on PBR has been quite positive.
Most negative feedback on the forums has been in relation to the looks of specific ships or shared looks across factions, and those are the types of issues that we will focus on as we iterate. That feedback, particularly if it's presented specifically and clearly in relation to what details players feel don't work for them, can be very helpful.
More general comments, or ones that mainly express a negative emotional reaction rather than describing how the look could be better, don't help us that much.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
148
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Posted - 2014.12.05 17:16:50 -
[27] - Quote
I only hate PBR because I'm at work so I can't get on SiSi to check it out. And to be fair, that video only showed like 1 ship of each race. Totally blueballed. T_T
CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.
CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
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Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
64
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Posted - 2014.12.05 17:26:39 -
[28] - Quote
Can we please see the reduction of certain factions/ships proliferation of "pimp my ride" on their skins....there is entirely too much chome finish on quite a few ships. They essentially look like i'm flying a christmas tree decoration... |
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
41
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Posted - 2014.12.05 18:02:37 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:However, across the range of hundreds of ships, they currently look pretty good
I would wholeheartedly disagree with this opinion.
Even on the ships that PBR isn't destroying, there's still a noticeable reduction in texture detail.
On the large swathes of ships PBR is clearly not gelling with, the results are extremely alarming.
CCP Darwin wrote:Overall, feedback on PBR has been quite positive.
Reading this feedback forum top to bottom, I really cannot agree.
I think there has been a huge amount of detailed feedback calling for CCP to delay the release of PBR on TQ.
It's quite disappointing to see it being brushed off in this way. |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
493
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Posted - 2014.12.05 18:10:49 -
[30] - Quote
It's a mixed bag at the moment.
The shiny bits of Gallente ships are way too shiny. Even more so on Creodron ships. The Ishtar has been progressively looking worse. It looked good in the blueish color, less good in green as it is on TQ now, and the test server version is an even worse off-putting green and far too shiny. Someone mentioned Gallente ships looking like xmas tree ornaments on the test server. That comment was spot on. Large chromed shapes on the capital ships is particularly weird looking.
The Ivory base color on Amarr doesn't look as good as the old beige. Making them lighter like this makes them look less menacing. Beige is also closer in tone to the gold, so the ships are more cohesive that way. With the ivory their forms are being chopped up too much. Split in two. Its the same problem as the camouflage patterns, just not as severe.
On the other hand the detail on ships like the Naga, Rokh, and Oracle are much improved over the TQ versions. It's almost like the TQ versions don't have normal maps and the test version do. And the Confessor is quite detailed and interesting to look at as well, hopefully this is a glimpse at the future for all EVE ships.
I still think the Blackbird and it's variants are hard to decipher. The overall shape and design is good but the interior forms don't read clearly. It probably could have used a little simplification shape-wise in the middle. Bolder forms, less finicky plane-changes. And if you look at it from the side the texture resolution seems a bit low and the tower doesn't stand out enough from the rest of the forms.
Minmatar ships look a bit weird, particularly ones with large flat surfaces like the Fenrir or the two carriers. Its a bit odd how drastically the tone of the brown changes as you rotate the ships and they catch the light. They look waxy. Though I am only viewing these ships in the preview window, I can't fly them in space.
The way the ships react to space and the lighting in general is of course an improvement. |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
528
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Posted - 2014.12.05 18:31:08 -
[31] - Quote
Unezka Turigahl wrote:It's a mixed bag at the moment.
< detailed comments >
Thank you for taking the care and time to be specific. Feedback this specific is the most helpful to our art team.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
7
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Posted - 2014.12.05 18:49:20 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:Hey pilots
I just want to give you a heads up on the issues related to the PBR (physically based rendering) conversion. I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE. The ships feel more integrated into the scene since the reflection from the nebula has energy now and is actually lightening up the ships, the materials can look and behave very realistic as you can see with the Amarr gold for instance or the bright fresnel on some of the metals.
However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. The textures we are using were not made for PBR and it was a massive undertaking for the art team in a relatively short time to convert the textures and we will need to revisit a lot of them in the future. I-¦m aware of a lot of issues with some of the factions like for instance Sansha that was tweaked before we got the oil part of the PBR shader working properly. We plan to revisit all of them in the future and will look for feedback on the forums.
We are also looking into the "washed out" look and lack of sharpness as well as the dirt and scuffing on the ships looks very rough and flat. We have made some progress there and we will have to work out the best way to implement that as soon as possible.
07 Huskarl
Awesome! My wish was answered :) Glad to know CCP is keeping an eye on player feedback with regards to the issue.
CCP Darwin wrote:
Overall, feedback on PBR has been quite positive.
However, I do have to wonder if you guys have read most of the reactions in the graphics feedback thread - 'quite positive' is not how I would describe it. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5069
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 19:10:59 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:Hey pilots
I just want to give you a heads up on the issues related to the PBR (physically based rendering) conversion. I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE. The ships feel more integrated into the scene since the reflection from the nebula has energy now and is actually lightening up the ships, the materials can look and behave very realistic as you can see with the Amarr gold for instance or the bright fresnel on some of the metals.
However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. The textures we are using were not made for PBR and it was a massive undertaking for the art team in a relatively short time to convert the textures and we will need to revisit a lot of them in the future. I-¦m aware of a lot of issues with some of the factions like for instance Sansha that was tweaked before we got the oil part of the PBR shader working properly. We plan to revisit all of them in the future and will look for feedback on the forums.
We are also looking into the "washed out" look and lack of sharpness as well as the dirt and scuffing on the ships looks very rough and flat. We have made some progress there and we will have to work out the best way to implement that as soon as possible.
07 Huskarl Well the clear solution to this problem would simply be to scrub the release of PBR in Rhea and wait until the textures have been redone for PBR.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union
185
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Posted - 2014.12.05 19:22:39 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Overall, feedback on PBR has been quite positive.
Most negative feedback on the forums has been in relation to the looks of specific ships or shared looks across individual factions, and those are the types of issues that we will focus on as we iterate. That feedback, particularly if it's presented specifically and clearly in relation to what details players feel don't work for them, can be very helpful.
Here's my specific feedback and spoiler alert, it's mostly not positive:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5273377#post5273377
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union - "Turning Lead into Gold since 2008"
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
529
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Posted - 2014.12.05 19:38:57 -
[35] - Quote
Murkar Omaristos wrote:However, I do have to wonder if you guys have read most of the reactions in the graphics feedback thread - 'quite positive' is not how I would describe it.
I wasn't being a pollyanna.
My overall characterization of player response to the feature (not only from that feedback thread, but including it) is "quite positive about the feature in general, but making clear that there's lot of work to do on specific ships and factions to get where we'd like to be for the long run."
Of course, that qualification is an important one and I feel CCP Huskarl and I have been pretty clear that that's where we're headed.
EDIT:
Quote:Here's my specific feedback and spoiler alert, it's mostly not positive:
Your comments were exactly the kind of thing that we need at this point. Thanks for taking the time and effort to write them out in such detail.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5074
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Posted - 2014.12.05 20:33:38 -
[36] - Quote
But seriously, Darwin, this very clearly seems like a feature you should hold off releasing until the visuals under PBR are satisfactory.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 20:34:46 -
[37] - Quote
ok; thanks for the response! I tend to agree with what others are saying about the textures. CCP gets a lot of hate (and most of the time I think unwarranted given the quality of the game you guys have made). However I do think going ahead with this before textures are ready for PBR despite player feedback would be a poorly informed decision.
Only a small percentage of players are here on the forums - you will certainly hear a lot more if it's released on TQ, and it would be a shame to be scrambling to make changes due to negative feedback after the fact rather than waiting until all of the textures are ready and making PBR a really exceptional and well received update. |
Rhyme Bittern
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 21:36:16 -
[38] - Quote
As a side note, I like the new Paladin. The former glowing red of carthum ships always looked toy-ish to f the opposite of grand. The Absolution looked like a silly hot dog. The new darker hue of matte red is a positive change in that respect. |
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 21:42:34 -
[39] - Quote
yer the paladin does look super sexy |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
493
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 00:29:58 -
[40] - Quote
I'd say I'm leaning more toward positive than negative.
Caldari ships are generally improved. Some VERY much so (Naga and Rokh). Guristas are as well, or at least the Gila looks better and that's the ship I spend all my time in.
Amarr gold is more gold looking. I really don't like the lightened "ivory" for reasons I went into earlier, but I have seen no one else complain about that. So maybe I am alone there. Popular impression of Amarr seems positive. Confessor will be one of the coolest looking ships in the game.
Minmatar is generally fine/sameish or improved, the Rupture actually doesn't look quite so terrible anymore. It's one of the worst looking and dated looking ships on TQ but the reskin on the test server helps it. We can actually see inside the Typhoon's mouth now, so that's cool. I'd like to see some more lights and texture details inside there to make it look more like the cool concept art that was done for it. The Fenrir and carriers are the main problem on the Minmatar side.
Gallente seems to be the main complaint from people. But taking a look on the test server again and they generally seem ok now. A little overboard on the chrome still on some ships. And the Vexor/Ishtar model looks really nasty. Globby normal map, and some surfaces that used to appear smooth now appear faceted/low poly. Maybe that's why I dislike like the Ishtar so much. Because the Eos and Sin actually don't look too bad.
Some of the pirate ships are upsetting people. Guess that's the main issue now.
I don't think they should hold PBR back from release. Hold it back just for some pirate factions and a few Gallente and Minmatar ships? Nah. Its an overall improvement. Ships pop out from the background better now. I don't feel like I'm straining my eyes so much when I look at my ship anymore. And just fly a ship around a space station and see how dated the stations look now in comparison.
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4006
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 02:40:56 -
[41] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:However, across the range of hundreds of ships, they currently look pretty good, and each ship will at least meet our designers' minimum standard for that ship at release, while many will look much better. For most of us, "minimum standard" means at least on par with the current offering.
Quote:That doesn't mean that your favorite ship might not have lost an element of its look to which you've become attached. What it does mean is that you should offer your feelings about it, as you have here, and we'll iterate on ships as we can. I have. We have. But since you extended the offer, here's a re-cap: GÇó Mordus Legion ships should be matte black. GÇó Serpentis ships should be a semi-gloss black, not silver. Example. OK, perhaps not quite like this... GÇó Sansha ships should have the rainbow sheen currently present. GÇó Blood Raiders need a new colour scheme to accompany the crimson 'splatter' (black, crimson red and red running lights). GÇó Angels should have this colour scheme.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 02:42:34 -
[42] - Quote
Unezka Turigahl wrote: Gallente seems to be the main complaint from people. But taking a look on the test server again and they generally seem ok now. A little overboard on the chrome still on some ships. And the Vexor/Ishtar model looks really nasty. Globby normal map, and some surfaces that used to appear smooth now appear faceted/low poly. Maybe that's why I dislike like the Ishtar so much. Because the Eos and Sin actually don't look too bad.
Some of the pirate ships are upsetting people. Guess that's the main issue now.
Ehh.. I'm on the opposite. The T1 lineup looks glorious right now. Chrome is good. In fact, chrome should be to Gallente what gold plating is to Amarr, making Gallente ships look more super funky high-tech with an alien touch and less like your typical sci-fi military ship you'd see at the Caldari side with their typical the dull paints. After all, Gallente is a Republic on top of it all, with some fairly wild fashions too, where certain aestethics are valued due to their representative role. Also, in my opinion, Vexor looks great right now - for the first time after all these years since the colour scheme debacle after the Trinity update.
Now about Gallente T2 lineup - yep, some stuff looks bad. Roden is okay(Phobos and Recon need more chrome, though), Ishkur looks really great, Sin is kinda okay, could be worse. The rest goes from sad to bad - every single Duvolle ship the former, Creodron with Ishtar and Imicus the latter.
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4006
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 02:43:41 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Your comments were exactly the kind of thing that we need at this point. Thanks for taking the time and effort to write them out in such detail. Did you guys stop following the other thread? There have been some lengthy and quite detailed write-ups including comparative screenshots posted there. But there hasn't been any dev interaction for quite some time now...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Inir Ishtori
Perkone Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 02:51:27 -
[44] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Darwin wrote:Your comments were exactly the kind of thing that we need at this point. Thanks for taking the time and effort to write them out in such detail. Did you guys stop following the other thread? There have been some lengthy and quite detailed write-ups including comparative screenshots posted there. But there hasn't been any dev interaction for quite some time now... They seem to be working instead of talking. Brutix was cleaned up a bit, Abaddon got some better hull structure, Myrmidon looks different, slightly cleaner. Sadly they alse seemed to have some chrome shine on a couple of ships |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
537
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 04:32:48 -
[45] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Did you guys stop following the other thread? There have been some lengthy and quite detailed write-ups including comparative screenshots posted there. But there hasn't been any dev interaction for quite some time now...
Actively interacting with the community is not a primary job responsibility for the EVE dev team. It's entirely on each of us how much or little we participate, though it's made clear to us that we're welcome if we would like to. So please don't assume that lack of a dev post means nobody's listening.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
811
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 05:13:15 -
[46] - Quote
Thanks for the reply. Can you talk about the way sun ray effects only show up when the sun is in camera? Is it a defect or by design for now.
Thanks
If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide
See you around the universe.
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4006
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 05:58:51 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Actively interacting with the community is not a primary job responsibility for the EVE dev team (except, of course, for our hard-working community team.) It's entirely on each of us how much or little we participate, though it's made clear to us that we're welcome if we would like to. So please don't assume that lack of a dev post means nobody's listening. Ditto.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Worrff
Viziam Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 06:34:36 -
[48] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:Hey pilots
I just want to give you a heads up on the issues related to the PBR (physically based rendering) conversion. I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE. The ships feel more integrated into the scene since the reflection from the nebula has energy now and is actually lightening up the ships, the materials can look and behave very realistic as you can see with the Amarr gold for instance or the bright fresnel on some of the metals.
However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. The textures we are using were not made for PBR and it was a massive undertaking for the art team in a relatively short time to convert the textures and we will need to revisit a lot of them in the future. I-¦m aware of a lot of issues with some of the factions like for instance Sansha that was tweaked before we got the oil part of the PBR shader working properly. We plan to revisit all of them in the future and will look for feedback on the forums.
We are also looking into the "washed out" look and lack of sharpness as well as the dirt and scuffing on the ships looks very rough and flat. We have made some progress there and we will have to work out the best way to implement that as soon as possible.
07 Huskarl
All of this will be largely irrelevant for a lot of people.
Many players will be running with post-processing off to negate the annoying and nauseating effect of the new UI windows, as this is the only way to get the UI looking anything like it is now. This will inevitably reduce the quality of the shaders and rendering applied.
You may want to have a chat with your mates in the "crappy new UI" team to have them introduce an option to stick with current window scheme, so that all your work here is not made irrelevant, pointless and a complete waste of time.
Good luck with that, they have ignored everyone else.
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Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
114
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 07:28:32 -
[49] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:CCP Huskarl, in his post, describes a number of details of ship look that he'd probably characterize as minor issues that he'd like to revisit over time after PBR's release. You largely agree on what the issues are, but you'd characterize them as game-breaking. Well, not game breaking, but really disappointing, i think we all rather see a finished product than some half done job, we've had bad experiences in the past regarding this type os strategy.
CCP Darwin wrote:That doesn't mean that your favorite ship might not have lost an element of its look to which you've become attached. What it does mean is that you should offer your feelings about it, as you have here, and we'll iterate on ships as we can. Phantasm: has lost the detail, the oil gleamy aura is gone... Paladin: so mux wax, where did the red go? Crow: why all the black? Windicator: its not black anymore :S Orthrus: has lost all its detail.
Basically the general feeling we get from all the ships (even the t1 amarr ships, basically) is that the textures are blurred, waxed and lost detail.
CCP Darwin wrote:However, across the range of hundreds of ships, they currently look pretty good, http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c
CCP Darwin wrote:Overall, feedback on PBR has been quite positive. My man, have you been reading the same posts i have? Because all i read is "Yeah it might look good when you solve this and this and that and that other too".
And what most people is saying is also true, we here in the forums are just a bunch, and the ones among us in the forum that actually get into sisi its even smaller, so we are just saying that to spare the shitstorm that might come to the forums we humbly think that you should put PPBR on hold until you get the job right.
And if you want positive and specific feedback, you can read my opinion on just some ships on #1.
Because tities .
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7223
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 09:40:18 -
[50] - Quote
Quote:http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c PBR is an improvement, ask any 3D artist and game grapic designer out there. http://www.pbrt.org/
But it needs some textures, and they have to be reworked. And they were, and will be. They were, and they will be, its not like with your "AAA" titles, where you can just sit and cry because artist took the money and company fired him already or you wait for community update with MOD if game is modable.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
114
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 09:50:38 -
[51] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:PBR is an improvement, ask any 3D artist and game grapic designer out there. I never said otherwise...
Bagrat Skalski wrote:But it needs some textures, and they have to be reworked. Thats all I'm saying, they need to be reworked before delivering the product.
Because tities .
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Miyaki Ayu Chan
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 10:32:48 -
[52] - Quote
Dear CCP,
I am concerned about that you bring out the Update with those "new Graphics" on Tranquality Server on the 9th December with the actual graphics changes.
The reason for it is what I can explain in short examples and I think I speak for the most Players.
Beside of the Amarr Ships, which were highly rendered with the new Graphics and were almost perfectly done, the Minmatar Ships still look kinda like the same as before.
This was something I just wanted to mention.
Gallente Ships are almost perfect, but some Ships like the Kronos and stuffs still need some hard work.
To the Problems:
- Gallente Ships look quite better, but have rust on Ships. Why the hell should there be rust on the Ships, when those are built with the finest Ore's of the Universe, of which some of them are not even available on earth?
When EVE is Real, this can't be real.
- Caldari Ships have received a BIG DOWNGRADE in the Graphics. I beg you to just for a good example compare the Scorpion Navy Issue on Singularity and Tranquality and tell me, which of them looks Graphics updated the new Shine?
Definetely the old Shader.
So, dear CCP:
Please remove the Rust on the Ships because it's ugly, dumb and definetely not real.
Second and primarly complain and biggest mistake what CCP could do:
Don't update the Caldari Ships like this.
Get their old Shaders back or do it right.
How it is right now is a big Downgrade.
I'm sure you will hear many complains about that.
Well, Best Regards,
Miyaki Ayu Chan o/ |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5081
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 12:23:40 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:So please don't assume that lack of a dev post means nobody's listening. But that's what it can feel like when pretty much half the Test Server Feedback forum is telling you to drop PBR from Rhea and delay its release until work on the textures and shaders has allowed ships to reach graphical parity with their pre-PBR appearences.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7227
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 12:48:17 -
[54] - Quote
Quote:reach graphical parity with their pre-PBR appearences. Just no. That is not the point of applying PBR.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Petra Hakaari
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
114
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 13:27:34 -
[55] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Quote:reach graphical parity with their pre-PBR appearences. Just no. That is not the point of applying PBR. What he says can be udnerstood that he wants the ships to look the same way, and I think that's what you udnerstood, but what i think the man tries to say is the, at least, same level or quality, which they, clearly, don't have right now on sisi.
Because tities .
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Claire Gally
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 13:30:30 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:I think there is no doubt that PBR gives us a much better and more realistic overall lighting in EVE.
No, just no. That's the theory about PBR, it is supposed to give a much better and more realistic overall lighting IF it's well-integrated. Which is not the case.
Launch up Sisi and watch for yourself.
In the meantime, PLEASE do NOT deploy that thing on TQ. Not until it looks good.
cheers, Claire |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7229
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 14:53:23 -
[57] - Quote
Quote:No, just no. That's the theory about PBR, it is supposed to give a much better and more realistic overall lighting IF it's well-integrated. Which is not the case.
It is well integrated, the issue is with certain ships and materials, but I think that after some tweaks they made until now even the worst looking textures on the ships in PBR look acceptable, even sansha without "oil spill". I say, bring it on, don't wait because of few ships that look different or not so shiny as they were.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
46
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 15:11:46 -
[58] - Quote
I think it's a bit of a shame how everyone voicing their concerns here are being brushed off as emotional about a few ships, or not providing sufficient technical detail for CCP to care taking the feedback into account.
I wonder why anyone is here in this test server feedback forum in the first place, maybe perhaps they care about the game.
All I know is that come December 9th, this useless undetailed "non-specific" feedback is going to be all over GD, and corp ceos and vets alike will be running damage control with all the new members of eve to try and explain why CCP felt this graphic downgrade was justified. |
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
46
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 15:12:52 -
[59] - Quote
doublepost |
PAPULA
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
33
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 15:53:10 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Huskarl wrote:However there are some issues that we are fully aware of and are working hard to fix. l Well machariel for example is very ugly using this new method, it's completely wrong in color. So i hope machariel will get same skin color / skin as on TQ.
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Laerise
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
63
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 16:55:07 -
[61] - Quote
The amarr ship line up is simply glorious, good work ccp! :) |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
540
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 17:13:38 -
[62] - Quote
Shalashaska Adam wrote:I think it's a bit of a shame how everyone voicing their concerns here are being brushed off as emotional about a few ships, or not providing sufficient technical detail for CCP to care taking the feedback into account. I wonder why anyone is here in this test server feedback forum in the first place, maybe perhaps they care about the game.
Nobody's brushing you off. The process going forward for iterating on our ships and faction looks will be to identify issues with particular ships and factions and fix them. Comments that specifically say what you do or don't like about a ship or faction are very helpful.
One major reason that comments like "I don't like PBR, please pull PBR from the release" aren't helpful: It's not going to happen. The complexity and scale of the change are far too great to roll it back in any reasonable timeframe.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1022
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 17:18:23 -
[63] - Quote
it would be nice if every pirate faction had unique hulls not just slight deviations or modifications from the base hull. serpentis could use a defining look and stronger lore .. atm the moment all they have is 90% massively OP webs as their gimmick, they are basically gallente with 90% webs and nothing more ..
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4009
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 17:46:49 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:One major reason that comments like "I don't like PBR, please pull PBR from the release" aren't helpful: It's not going to happen. The complexity and scale of the change are far too great to roll it back in any reasonable timeframe. Perhaps if this had been stated from the very outset feedback could have been concentrated on fixing specific ships or factions. Not having a technical grasp of the scope of what was all involved, we've been left to simply "guess" what was or wasn't working as intended with the various unannounced updates to SiSi. You've more or less left everyone to operate in a vacuum by not providing any specifics or details up until basically the last minute.
PBR is going to be an unmitigated disaster, but don't take our word for it.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7245
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 19:43:16 -
[65] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:PBR is going to be an unmitigated disaster, but don't take our word for it. Enough of this drama, there will be usual whine like always, changes or lack of changes, there is always someone whining over something and it is a part of development just from the beginning.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Lady Rohk
The Cuddlefish Ethereal Dawn
20
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 20:14:27 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Shalashaska Adam wrote:I think it's a bit of a shame how everyone voicing their concerns here are being brushed off as emotional about a few ships, or not providing sufficient technical detail for CCP to care taking the feedback into account. I wonder why anyone is here in this test server feedback forum in the first place, maybe perhaps they care about the game. Nobody's brushing you off. The process going forward for iterating on our ships and faction looks will be to identify issues with particular ships and factions and fix them. Comments that specifically say what you do or don't like about a ship or faction are very helpful. One major reason that comments like "I don't like PBR, please pull PBR from the release" aren't helpful: It's not going to happen. The complexity and scale of the change are far too great to roll it back in any reasonable timeframe.
While I really like the new rendering, I can't help but feel that it makes the ships look more like they're in a light room, rather than a universe. Perhaps this is just the uniformity of the textures that makes it looks overly-simple and too perfect, Rather than having tiny little imperfections that make the ships look more real. |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4009
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 20:16:25 -
[67] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Enough of this drama, there will be usual whine like always, changes or lack of changes, there is always someone whining over something and it is a part of development just from the beginning. If the devs can't gleam anything from the majority of the feedback that's been provided here, their loss. And as for you, get bent.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7251
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 20:26:15 -
[68] - Quote
PBR will be implemented and that is not their last word. Capiche? Since when they stopped making graphic updates? Never. Just wait and stop whining.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
25
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 20:26:22 -
[69] - Quote
Not all ships look worse and I'm sure since CCP has stated this will definitely not be rolled back, then the best we can do is stop whining and hope that they will remove the rust, fix the pirate ships to their proper colors, and update the textures on gallente etc. so that they are made for PBR and look better with it.
Anyways.....thx for the input CCP Darwin. I think there are lessons to be learned here about how much change the community can handle all at once - ome of these complaints are surely the result of too muchs change at once rather than legitimate problems. \o/ |
Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 20:36:19 -
[70] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:it would be nice if every pirate faction had unique hulls not just slight deviations or modifications from the base hull. serpentis could use a defining look and stronger lore .. atm the moment all they have is 90% massively OP webs as their gimmick, they are basically gallente with 90% webs and nothing more .. We are discussing PBR here, not the niche of a specific pirate faction...
Because tities .
|
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4009
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 20:44:16 -
[71] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:We are discussing PBR here, not the niche of a specific pirate faction... Since PBR is going ahead regardless, I would suggest perhaps only implementing one race at a time and leave the original ship textures in place for the others. Amarr seems to be the furthest ahead in terms of benefitting from PBR, so they're the logical choice for Rhea. Tie-in the updates for Gallente, Caldari, Minmatar and Pirates (in that order) with the new T3 Tactical Destroyers. No feathers are ruffled, it will be perceived as steady upgrades and everyone wins.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 20:50:12 -
[72] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Since PBR is going ahead regardless, I would suggest perhaps only implementing one race at a time and leave the original ship textures in place for the others. Amarr seems to be the furthest ahead in terms of benefitting from PBR, so they're the logical choice for Rhea. Tie-in the updates for Gallente, Caldari, Minmatar and Pirates (in that order) with the new T3 Tactical Destroyers. No feathers are ruffled, it will be perceived as steady upgrades and everyone wins. I agree, but I think you misunderstood me, I'm telling this gentelman here that we are discussing PBR in this post, not if some faction should have a different hull or a different bonus.
But yeah, definetly that would do, it would even make sence because the only tactical destro is gonna be the confessor and also because the most favoured ships (even that the paladin sux xD) are the amarrian.
Because tities .
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 23:22:21 -
[73] - Quote
Great work with PBR, it updates EVE-Online to today's standards.
My only problem... the dominix needs a redesign... like seriously ;) |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
419
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 01:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
Wasn't the point of the new release schedule so that features that where not ready could be put off to the next patch so as to not make TQ into a beta version game?
Just asking... because while I do see the positive side to PBR, it's def. not a finished product for the time being - and launching it is likely to be a real mess in the current form... I think that since this is still in the WIP phase it should remain on SISI until it's ready for a proper roll out, and then we can all celebrate a prettier EVE w/o the trauma. |
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
47
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 01:54:16 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:One major reason that comments like "I don't like PBR, please pull PBR from the release" aren't helpful: It's not going to happen. The complexity and scale of the change are far too great to roll it back in any reasonable timeframe.
I understand the work that has been done, but it has not yet hit TQ in order to be "rolled back" yet.
Surely it can remain on the test server until it is in a state where it isn't reducing the visual quality of so many ships?
Does the new 10 release cycle not allow this? Has it not happened with various other not-quite-ready features already.
I understand the frustration of "I don't like PBR" not being helpful, but only so many people have the time to write up long posts with dozens of screenshots. I think it's not outlandish to say that more than sufficient feedback was provided, with all the other posts in-between simply being acknowledgements of the same dissatisfaction and concern.
As others have said, we understand PBR is happening and has been worked on too long not to happen, with the parallels to Incarna being just a little bit dramatic, but I think peoples concern with it hitting TQ is CCP's ability to "fix" it within a short time frame. After all we seem to be talking about the vast majority of the ships textures in the game needing a work over to make them work properly with PBR. Any such update with that scope before has taken months and months to finish.
Even on the ships showcased to already be working with PBR, where the colours are as intended, there is still a very noticeable reduction in texture detail. It very much feels and indeed looks like a new lighting system forced over old assets, in most cases degrading the quality of the texture work that wasn't designed for it.
As of right now, even with the best case ships, I cannot see what the intended improvement of PBR is meant to be. I'm positive it's technically superior in some way, but that is not coming across with the games assets. Comparing TQ to sisi makes me feel like I've somehow lowered my games texture detail and lighting quality settings. |
Cajun Style
Shattered Planet
21
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 02:14:35 -
[76] - Quote
I THINK THEY'RE BEAUTIFUL, YOU'RE DOING A GREAT JOB CCP.
a couple of hiccups here and there, but yall have been doing a splendid job. in days gone by I wouldn't ~trust~ ccp with anything when it came to following up on making sure that stuff added to or changed in the game was in a good state, but yall have been doing great recently and i have every reason to be hopeful about the art team's work as they have, tbh, never really failed us before
also just from their avatar it's hard to take OP's opinions on aesthetic sensibilities seriously... speaking of which the gallente ships in particular are gorgeous now, the talos in particular is spectacular, as do minmatar ships... the improvement to the lighting and shadows while actually out in space, however, is what is really stands out as a huge improvement. the ship viewer and station environment don't really demonstrate what the big change is. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5084
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 05:11:45 -
[77] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:One major reason that comments like "I don't like PBR, please pull PBR from the release" aren't helpful: It's not going to happen. The complexity and scale of the change are far too great to roll it back in any reasonable timeframe. Then you're going to run into massive amounts of far less reasonable criticism, threats of unsubscriptions, actual unsubscriptions, anger and distrust from the community when PBR is released, people inevitably don't like it, and people inevitably discover that your testers warned you about it.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Arronicus
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1357
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 07:12:53 -
[78] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Shalashaska Adam wrote:I think it's a bit of a shame how everyone voicing their concerns here are being brushed off as emotional about a few ships, or not providing sufficient technical detail for CCP to care taking the feedback into account. I wonder why anyone is here in this test server feedback forum in the first place, maybe perhaps they care about the game. Nobody's brushing you off. The process going forward for iterating on our ships and faction looks will be to identify issues with particular ships and factions and fix them. Comments that specifically say what you do or don't like about a ship or faction are very helpful. One major reason that comments like "I don't like PBR, please pull PBR from the release" aren't helpful: It's not going to happen. The complexity and scale of the change are far too great to roll it back in any reasonable timeframe.
There seems to be VERY little acknowledgement from ccp toward those that do provide specific details though, like the complaints about blood raiders losing their iconic red paintjobs, no longer looking red anymore, and the Sansha ships going from a green and brown semi camo, to an unpainted silver appearance. In these particular cases, it's like a major step backward in visual appeal. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7259
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 08:38:13 -
[79] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote:trauma. Yes, and an end of the world is upon us.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
|
Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 09:15:53 -
[80] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Yes, and the end of world is upon us. This dramatic, emotional notes over different shades of gray is silly. PBR is doing great job only with lighting, as for colors, its always something what suits you, and thats the reason actual ships painting should be developed. Ships need bigger textures for better details also. Untill then, we will fly zoomed out just like always. We realise that features such as the notifications and the new map need a lot of feedback and thats the reason for deploying them on tq as beta but thats not the PBR's case.
As has been said already people get emotionally attached to their ships and we can foresee drama incoming.
In fact most of these people are carebears that spend 100% of their time in jita and in the missioning nodes, but also nullbears and wormholers (with static to highsec xD) that spend hours ship sinning and pos spinning faping on their magnificent ships and will feel this update more likely as a step back, even you agree thats a step back to allow for two steps forward, later.
There has been a post for a high resolution texture pack in the GD forum for as long as i can remember.
Then you and all of us agree that the problem is the textures, then dont you think thats time to put PBR on hold, until the textures are properly done? a thing that has been asked for years?
You say release them and deal with the shitstorm, we say postpone it and spare yourselves the shitstorm, i think this would be wiser...
besides, i think this is the perfect opportunity for CCP to kill 2 birds with 1 shot.
Because tities .
|
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7259
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 12:04:45 -
[81] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:[quote=Bagrat Skalski]You say release them and deal with the shitstorm, we say postpone it and spare yourselves the shitstorm, i think this would be wiser...
Besides, i think this is the perfect opportunity for CCP to kill 2 birds with 1 shot.
I would be completely dissapointed if they will hold it, I think PBR is still an improvement, and current ships on TQ are less appealing to the eye, too murky and unrealistic. I have seen the new ships dammit. I want them. Details and textures they can polish later, they already look great for me with this PBR look.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
|
Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 12:17:29 -
[82] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:I would be completely dissapointed if they will hold it, I think PBR is still an improvement, and current ships on TQ are less appealing to the eye, too murky and unrealistic. I have seen the new ships dammit. I want them. Details and textures they can polish later, they already look great for me with this PBR look. Its a matter of opinion i guess, in my language we have a saying which says: "theres nothing written about tastes", i dont know if theres such thing in english, but you get the point.
However, I'm thinking further ahead, I'm no only thinking about my particular taste, I'm thinking about it globally, and belive me man when i tell you that **** is about to hit the fan.
Because tities .
|
Oberine Noriepa
1592
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 12:30:39 -
[83] - Quote
For the first pass, I think the majority of hulls look pretty good. There's always room for improvement in the future. I think anyone expecting a bulk inflammatory reaction from this change is just being hyperbolic. Tech-wise, the game needs to move forward, but you will always have people advocating against this.
Gêâ
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5087
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 18:13:09 -
[84] - Quote
Oberine Noriepa wrote:I think anyone expecting a bulk inflammatory reaction from this change is just being hyperbolic. Funny, because people were saying precisely the same thing about loot spew and Captain's Quarters.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7262
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 19:48:56 -
[85] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Oberine Noriepa wrote:I think anyone expecting a bulk inflammatory reaction from this change is just being hyperbolic. Funny, because people were saying precisely the same thing about loot spew and Captain's Quarters. They will be traumatized, right? There will be threats about unsubbing all acounts, and biomassing, I can't wait to see how much % those subscriptions will drop after people will see their PBR ships.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
|
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
423
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 23:17:31 -
[86] - Quote
I don't think anyone is questioning the moving the game forward, I am all for PBR as a finished product that enhances the game on TQ, but the first "pass" on the ships is lacking in substantial ways and while I don't think it's going to be delayed, I do thing that there will have to be significant and immediate attention to it post-Rhea to being it in line with expectations of the games current visual quality.
I am concerned that the language is "pass" and that the idea that the ships will be addressed on the basis of "feedback" - what does this mean? that if a ship isn't complained about in volume it will be left in a state of sub-par rendered appearance?
I have accepted that PBR is going to launch, and I would like to say that the WIP ships (all need work) while some look better than other - on a ship by ship comparison of the current TQ build and the SISI - that they are sub-par to the over all look and feel of EVE - unlike the Trinity expansion, this one is coming in rather patch-work, but I guess we will have to work through it. I do however feel this is the place of SISI and not TQ to bare this burden. |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
557
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:00:54 -
[87] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote:I am concerned that the language is "pass" and that the idea that the ships will be addressed on the basis of "feedback" - what does this mean? that if a ship isn't complained about in volume it will be left in a state of sub-par rendered appearance?
If you feel my comments here have been light on promises:
I've talked with my teammates and understand what their plan is for moving forward, but I am on the technical side and I can't firmly commit to specific art changes because it's not within my personal ability to make them.
There's a lot going on in the art area. Priorities change based on what's doable, what's needed by the rest of EVE development, and what we think will have the best impact on the player experience. Frankly, it's far more than I can hold in my head and it changes too fast to come here and say "Here's where we'll be in February. I promise."
What I can communicate clearly is that we care very much about EVE's look being as amazing as it can be. I'm posting this at midnight on a Sunday night because I care about the game, and the rest of our team are in the same place. Yes, your feedback is being heard and read. Yes, more of the team than just me are reading this thread.
As far as what will happen in the immediate near term, here are some facts: Rhea's getting released on Tuesday, with PBR. Starting over the next couple weeks, people are going to be taking vacations for the holidays. This limits how much we'll be able to do during that time, and it limits how much response you'll get when you comment on the forums.
However, the rest of the winter, starting the first week of January, will be a busy time and I think you'll find that the pace of fixes and changes will be very satisfactory.
Thanks for all your feedback. Yes, we'll still be reading, and I'll try to post in relevant threads once in a while to let you know that's the case.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
|
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4018
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:26:12 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:However, the rest of the winter, starting the first week of January, will be a busy time and I think you'll find that the pace of fixes and changes will be very satisfactory. Any idea when we might expect to see a prototype or opt-in (beta) ship painting feature?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Cajun Style
Shattered Planet
21
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:49:33 -
[89] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Aurelius Valentius wrote:I am concerned that the language is "pass" and that the idea that the ships will be addressed on the basis of "feedback" - what does this mean? that if a ship isn't complained about in volume it will be left in a state of sub-par rendered appearance? If you feel my comments here have been light on promises: I've talked with my teammates and understand what their plan is for moving forward, but I am on the technical side and I can't firmly commit to specific art changes because it's not within my personal ability to make them. There's a lot going on in the art area. Priorities change based on what's doable, what's needed by the rest of EVE development, and what we think will have the best impact on the player experience. Frankly, it's far more than I can hold in my head and it changes too fast to come here and say "Here's where we'll be in February. I promise." What I can communicate clearly is that we care very much about EVE's look being as amazing as it can be. I'm posting this at midnight on a Sunday night because I care about the game, and the rest of our team are in the same place. Yes, your feedback is being heard and read. Yes, more of the team than just me are reading this thread. As far as what will happen in the immediate near term, here are some facts: Rhea's getting released on Tuesday, with PBR. Starting over the next couple weeks, people are going to be taking vacations for the holidays. This limits how much we'll be able to do during that time, and it limits how much response you'll get when you comment on the forums. However, the rest of the winter, starting the first week of January, will be a busy time and I think you'll find that the pace of fixes and changes will be very satisfactory. Thanks for all your feedback. Yes, we'll still be reading, and I'll try to post in relevant threads once in a while to let you know that's the case.
people in this thread are managing to forget that EVE has always been a. gorgeous and b. a WIP visually, without clear generations of graphics change but constant work here and there bridging between the periods of larger, systematic graphical improvements, and the big leaps always leave some parts behind too, with old art assets sitting next to new, but even in eve's most dire days the art department has done a first-rate job and this is not a new approach for the game and it is not one that has failed before. (but oh dear jesus the stars really do look eleven years old) |
Oberine Noriepa
1593
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 01:49:50 -
[90] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Oberine Noriepa wrote:I think anyone expecting a bulk inflammatory reaction from this change is just being hyperbolic. Funny, because people were saying precisely the same thing about loot spew and Captain's Quarters. Those are changes that directly affected gameplay. Physically based rendering only introduces changes to the look of the game.
You were only successful in proving my point.
Gêâ
|
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Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
425
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 02:04:37 -
[91] - Quote
Cajun Style wrote:CCP Darwin wrote:Aurelius Valentius wrote:I am concerned that the language is "pass" and that the idea that the ships will be addressed on the basis of "feedback" - what does this mean? that if a ship isn't complained about in volume it will be left in a state of sub-par rendered appearance? If you feel my comments here have been light on promises: I've talked with my teammates and understand what their plan is for moving forward, but I am on the technical side and I can't firmly commit to specific art changes because it's not within my personal ability to make them. There's a lot going on in the art area. Priorities change based on what's doable, what's needed by the rest of EVE development, and what we think will have the best impact on the player experience. Frankly, it's far more than I can hold in my head and it changes too fast to come here and say "Here's where we'll be in February. I promise." What I can communicate clearly is that we care very much about EVE's look being as amazing as it can be. I'm posting this at midnight on a Sunday night because I care about the game, and the rest of our team are in the same place. Yes, your feedback is being heard and read. Yes, more of the team than just me are reading this thread. As far as what will happen in the immediate near term, here are some facts: Rhea's getting released on Tuesday, with PBR. Starting over the next couple weeks, people are going to be taking vacations for the holidays. This limits how much we'll be able to do during that time, and it limits how much response you'll get when you comment on the forums. However, the rest of the winter, starting the first week of January, will be a busy time and I think you'll find that the pace of fixes and changes will be very satisfactory. Thanks for all your feedback. Yes, we'll still be reading, and I'll try to post in relevant threads once in a while to let you know that's the case. people in this thread are managing to forget that EVE has always been a. gorgeous and b. a WIP visually, without clear generations of graphics change but constant work here and there bridging between the periods of larger, systematic graphical improvements, and the big leaps always leave some parts behind too, with old art assets sitting next to new, but even in eve's most dire days the art department has done a first-rate job and this is not a new approach for the game and it is not one that has failed before. (but oh dear jesus the stars really do look eleven years old)
I think I have been here a while longer than you have... and I haven't forgotten anything, it's that I remember and was present for most of EVE, I wouldn't have mentioned Trinity if I hadn't been there for it... e.g.
You don't need to be a fan-boi, the people here aren't throwing rocks, they care as much as CCP does about their game, and where it goes - we are saying critical things because that was what was asked - "yes, yes" doesn't help move things forward, and we are not in grade school where if you say something critical CCP devs will break out in tears... we understand they work hard, and they put a lot into the game we love to play.
I, like many have been here a long time, we (all) care about EVE, CCP and the people and game, we want it to be the best game out there (and it is in imho) and CCP is (having worked in a few IT companies) sounds like a great place to work if you passion is EVE.
The simple point is that some of PBR is not looking as it could, the idea is to get that on the radar and then make it work, my concern was that since this is the holidays and all, that perhaps it wasn't the best time to launch a all new product that will have some very visible issues in it on a holiday public that could cause some major crying and all when CCP is trying to enjoy the holidays - the reason I am concerned is because I do not want to see CCP have an issue like the "summer of rage" with the CQ and all that - I was there for that as well, and I remember a particular thread I posted that ran a few 1000s replies on it in a day or so about -1 no hangar basically being the content of commentary.
PBR will be outstanding, it will work well, it is an improvement, so don't think anyone is saying it will not be, what we are all saying (imho) is that we see issues with the current iteration and we are not sure how this will shake out for the current update with the time of year and all that.
But it's going forward, so it may be fine it may be rough going... will see, either way CCP will do what needs doing, and EVE will keep being EVE.
On that note, I wish everyone a happy holidays, and a happy new year.
EVE: Forever. |
Cajun Style
Shattered Planet
22
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 04:01:27 -
[92] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
*snip*
On that note, I wish everyone a happy holidays, and a happy new year.
EVE: Forever.
ah, i get contrarian on the official forums against some of the whiners, i don't have i in me for an intensive discussion right now, i'm not super-dupes worried about PBR, but you make entiely fair points. also, it wasn't directly aimed at you. obvious forum alts/trader alts/whatever alts are obvious, I too have been around for a while. |
Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 09:43:30 -
[93] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Any idea when we might expect to see a prototype or opt-in (beta) ship painting feature? No please.... just, no...
My myself would love to see that, paint my proteus matte white with a shinny red stripe crossing its long axis...
And Petra would love to go smoke some synthetic ganja in a Minmanigro station where she can find some male strippers and transfer a couple of millions to that hot 14 inch mandingo for a lap dance and go gamble a hundred isk on a Slay game later... (I'm talking about Walk in stations here)
Yes i'd love to fashion up my ships and Roleplay a lil' bit, but I think this is not the place nor the time.
Because tities .
|
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1453
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 10:34:56 -
[94] - Quote
I for one feel confident about your work on the PBR. Its nice to see the art team taking "risks" like that. As said before, its tricky to change the graphics in EVE, but hopefully the end result after a few iterations will be better.
Allow me to suggest something though. I'm not targeting a specific race or anything, but in general, I'd suggest that you reconsider the "aging" on ships. Some ships have dirt in their texture, others have their paint scratched off (i.e Cormorant).
I know it might be easier to render properly the texture of a ship through unperfection marks like these, but its not realistic, and it doesn't make them any more beautiful.
I'm sure I won't teach you anything if I remind you that in EVE, ships are mass-produced following a precise blueprint, I don't see how a ship freshly built could have already damaged paint on it. And even a ship that served for a long time couldn't have possibly survived after hugging asteroids all day long. So, there is no way a ship would have damaged paint like what we have on Sisi right now. The only thing I consider possible would be hit impacts.
Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1453
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 14:50:27 -
[95] - Quote
Hi again,
Taking a close look at the Onyx, here is what you can see on the side : Red marks with a white outline, zoomed out it looks like a light red, really odd for a Kalaakiota ship, and quite out of place.
Now look at the prospect : Same red marks, but no white outline... Much better.
I suggest you do the same with the Onyx :)
Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
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Skurja Volpar
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
127
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 16:19:24 -
[96] - Quote
Looks a little hit and miss so far in my opinion, most of the Amarr ships looks pretty amazing I must say, and Gallente BC and up look nice too , the shininess makes me pretty nostalgic.
But Minmatar and Caldari look like they're made of plastic right now. Seems like anything with flat surfaces is currently looking really poor. Rupture and Hel are prime examples for me. |
Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 16:23:29 -
[97] - Quote
Skurja Volpar wrote:Looks a little hit and miss so far in my opinion, most of the Amarr ships looks pretty amazing I must say, and Gallente BC and up look nice too , the shininess makes me pretty nostalgic.
But Minmatar and Caldari look like they're made of plastic right now. Seems like anything with flat surfaces is currently looking really poor. Rupture and Hel are prime examples for me. The Redeemer looks like plastic too.
Because tities .
|
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7263
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 17:25:30 -
[98] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:New devblog just got released regarding PBR: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/pbr-and-making-eve-look-real/ On this image there's the perfect example of the issues http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66739/1/megathron_new.jpg On the old one we can see the hues of the hull, the lines, the shaders, green and grey parts. On the new one the hues are gone, the textures look more uniform, however, we can see how the hull has gained volume, we can see how the light reflects perfectly on the lines, i dont know if thats created with parallax mapping or its just the PBR itself, but you can see an improvement, but its just that the textures are just not as rich as in the old one.
These details would look good only in HD textures under PBR. Look closely on them now on TQ. Do you think under PBR they would look better in current resolution? They were a second, "pretending to be more detailed", layer pretending to show finer details in the low resolution texture. Under bigger contrast in PBR they would be a big mess.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 17:30:26 -
[99] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:These details would look good only in HD textures under PBR. Look closely on them now on TQ. Do you think under PBR they would look better in current resolution? They were a second, "pretending to be more detailed", layer pretending to show finer details in the low resolution texture. Under bigger contrast in PBR they would be a big mess. All i know is that PBR as per now, its a wannabe...
Because tities .
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7263
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 17:33:55 -
[100] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:Bagrat Skalski wrote:These details would look good only in HD textures under PBR. Look closely on them now on TQ. Do you think under PBR they would look better in current resolution? They were a second, "pretending to be more detailed", layer pretending to show finer details in the low resolution texture. Under bigger contrast in PBR they would be a big mess. All i know is that PBR as per now, its a wannabe... Well, computer graphics in general is a big wannabe of a real world. I can't discuss that. Its known fact.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 17:52:52 -
[101] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Well, computer graphics in general is a big wannabe of a real world. I can't discuss that. Its known fact. Nice sophism.
Because tities .
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
7263
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 18:12:09 -
[102] - Quote
Computer graphics are sophistic. That is truth.
Don't look any further for negative energy, you will find it by being lazy.
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Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
66
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 18:49:43 -
[103] - Quote
Okay, so i narrowed the biggest "ugliness" culprit down....its the "shader quality"
With everything else set on "high"...here is what happens with the model when changing "shader quality" from high-medium-low....something is off here....
High Medium Low
I suspect it is like this for numerous other ships as well. But since i'm paying you (CCP) to test these sort of things while you are developing them...and not the other way around...i have other things more important to do. |
Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
51
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 18:58:40 -
[104] - Quote
What worries me, is that CCP consider the PBR megathron, to be better.
Perhaps I am going completely blind and mad, but to me that clearly looks significantly worse than the one next to it.
GD is going to go nuts tomorrow, it's a real shame. |
Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 19:28:19 -
[105] - Quote
Shalashaska Adam wrote:What worries me, is that CCP consider the PBR megathron, to be better.
Perhaps I am going completely blind and mad, but to me that clearly looks significantly worse than the one next to it.
GD is going to go nuts tomorrow, it's a real shame. Well, In some cses i think its better, as i said, you can see volume on the lines, but overall, its worse, but who knows, maybe you and I are on lsd or something xD
Because tities .
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
12
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 20:36:01 -
[106] - Quote
I agree that a lot of ships lost a lot of detail for the sake of "MOAR BRIGHTSSSS!!!! MOAR SHINEZZ!!!" than actual enhancements.
I know they are working to update the whole graphics system, but instead of putting all the pieces together and releasing one frikin ridiculous amazing update, they are releasing each part of the system on its own. Even though each segment doesn't exactly make the remaining older segments look very good, and in a lot of cases quite a bit worse. To top it off because they are doing it piecemeal they are getting flooded with bad feedback and there is little they can do about it other than say its a work in progress, or worse, they will go out of their way to make the old and new systems look better for the time being instead of focusing on the final deployment.
I thought that was one of the reasons behind this whole 6 week release cycle, so they didn't feel pressured to release things before they were ready... but instead they are using the opposite excuse saying it allows them to release unfinished things so they can fix them later :(
They really should just delay any additional graphics upgrades until all of it is done, so as to reduce the number of bugs and glitches they have to chase down or answer for because part of the new system isn't playing nice with part of the old system and they absolutely insist on running both at once.
What would be even better is a timetable for which they plan to actually finish what they are starting with this. When are they planning on fixing this for T3s, NPCs, Stations... when are they going to actually finish updating all the textures in game so that PBR actually works well with them? I can't stand the standard answer of "well its too late to change it now so we will just patch it later..." :( |
Zelloxo
Aprilx Alien Abductions
0
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Posted - 2014.12.08 20:38:03 -
[107] - Quote
the lot of you
did you read this http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/pbr-and-making-eve-look-real/
cant you take them for their word and just see where it takes us do you really think they will just give up half way in and leave it
you act like they just took a hit off a crack pipe and came up with the most insane plot to take over the Atlantic ocean by resurfacing the moon.
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HiddenPorpoise
Under Dark Sins of our Fathers
282
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Posted - 2014.12.08 21:14:09 -
[108] - Quote
Zelloxo wrote:the lot of you did you read this http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/pbr-and-making-eve-look-real/ cant you take them for their word and just see where it takes us do you really think they will just give up half way in and leave it you act like they just took a hit off a crack pipe and came up with the most insane plot to take over the Atlantic ocean by resurfacing the moon. Given we're discussing the mega that they're bragging about, yes we read it. The takeaway being don't fly Gallente or half the pirates for six weeks; everything else is fine or better for it. |
Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
124
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Posted - 2014.12.09 09:11:43 -
[109] - Quote
Zelloxo wrote:the lot of you did you read this http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/pbr-and-making-eve-look-real/ cant you take them for their word and just see where it takes us do you really think they will just give up half way in and leave it you act like they just took a hit off a crack pipe and came up with the most insane plot to take over the Atlantic ocean by resurfacing the moon. IF, you did read the 6 pages of this thread and the 18 of the other one... you did not understand a thing.
Because tities .
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Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
426
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 11:48:12 -
[110] - Quote
Happy Patch Day!
Ok, hold tight, lets see how this goes - I took a look at SISI just before I logged and I took SS of everything for the sake of remembering it how it was...
I just fitted out my Paladin and I have almost 10/20 my Apoc BPO, so... don't make me have gaudy ships, I won't mention what my NM is going to be looking like for incursions, but I will try to cope.
Hopefully things smooth out, but if not I have PLEXed until April and I can always just take a break, set the queue (thank you for that) and wait until the next iteration of it all if it comes right down to it, but I would rather have pretty ships.
Here is hope for: 1. better detail and over all sharpness and color. 2. no super hot spots, odd "wavey/motion" effects from light hitting on weird angles on bits, no jagged specular lines giving the effect of moving, and no over-done metallic or colors, here is to full spectrum colors, both matt and gloss, and over all good looking ships in low/med/high shaders. 3. hopefully we get a client side skinning option, and custom ship colors and corporate/alliance logos, etc. 4. a brightness and contrast control. 5. effects on and off for all the various modules and such 6. external module items for HS non-weapon items. ... all in the next year, at least that would be nice.
Happy Patch Day everyone, here we go. |
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Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
125
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 11:57:17 -
[111] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote: 6. external module items for HS non-weapon items.
All active modules but damage control and shield/armor hardeners should have something in the hull:
Target painters, autotargeters, sensor boosters, dampeners, tracking enhancers/disruptors/, webs, points, cap transfers, remote shield boosters, remote armor reppers.
But this post isnt about this.
And this should be locked and discussion brought here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=390503&find=unread
Because tities .
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
14
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 15:14:13 -
[112] - Quote
Zelloxo wrote:cant you take them for their word and just see where it takes us do you really think they will just give up half way in and leave it
WIS anyone? Remember how grand that was and how they had such plans for it?
Dust? Yeah, they've never stopped working on something they only half released that they were so proud of before now have they...
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Petra Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
125
|
Posted - 2014.12.09 16:18:50 -
[113] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:WIS anyone? Remember how grand that was and how they had such plans for it?
Dust? Yeah, they've never stopped working on something they only half released that they were so proud of before now have they...
hahaha youre so damn right... dust, game who is played by the stounding number of trhee thousand people as average on all its lifetime.
Because tities .
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Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4024
|
Posted - 2014.12.10 08:29:17 -
[114] - Quote
There's a glaring difference between ships rendered with medium as opposed to high Shader Quality settings. Which sucks for any of us running older graphics cards or trying to optimize our settings for increased frame rate.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
19
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Posted - 2014.12.10 18:32:40 -
[115] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:There's a glaring difference between ships rendered with medium as opposed to high Shader Quality settings. Which sucks for any of us running older graphics cards or trying to optimize our settings for increased frame rate. Actually as my brother found out, Low Shader actually has better quality than Medium Shader... give it a whirl. |
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
19
|
Posted - 2014.12.10 18:38:39 -
[116] - Quote
Well, at least the ships are no longer made entirely out of chromed plastic, and they actually have textures again. But on Low they don't have any shiney or reflectiveness. |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4025
|
Posted - 2014.12.10 20:30:57 -
[117] - Quote
Dangeresque Too wrote:Actually as my brother found out, Low Shader actually has better quality than Medium Shader... give it a whirl. I can't figure this one either, to be honest. I mean, the quality is definitely not there on the Low setting - but the glaring shine is not present and ships like the Erebus don't look like a single block of aluminum like they do under Medium.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
22
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Posted - 2014.12.10 23:47:18 -
[118] - Quote
I think its mostly the poor Gallente ships that were given the solid chrome look... going to try to get my bro to do some comparison shots with were there should be textures around the window areas (the dark sections with the lights), which are somehow only done through the dirt-map, and not texture. Further, this problem does not exist on any other racial ship, just Gallente, therein furthering the all mirrored aluminum look. Check it out on the mega and thorax for quick examples. |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
621
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 01:07:20 -
[119] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Dangeresque Too wrote:Actually as my brother found out, Low Shader actually has better quality than Medium Shader... give it a whirl. I can't figure this one either, to be honest. I mean, the quality is definitely not there on the Low setting - but the glaring shine is not present and ships like the Erebus don't look like a single block of aluminum like they do under Medium.
The reason this is the case is that high and medium each use the PBR lighting model, but medium reduces the shading operations by 50% by removing the dirt maps.
Low turns off PBR and uses a much simpler lighting model, but because even low-end GPUs can handle dirt maps with the simpler lighting model, Low uses them. Because Low uses dirt maps and doesn't support reflection, colors are more saturated and there's a feeling of more detail, but on Low you don't get the feeling of materials being differentiated in the same way.
If you have to use Medium shader settings to get decent performance, you might want to try both Low and Medium to see which you prefer. Or, you may be able to get away with High if you change other settings.
Hope that helps a little bit.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Technical Artist, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
71
|
Posted - 2014.12.11 22:16:00 -
[120] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote: If you have to use Medium shader settings to get decent performance, you might want to try both Low and Medium to see which you prefer. Or, you may be able to get away with High if you change other settings.
Hope that helps a little bit.
I'm noticing a theme here....the only huge complaints about "medium" looking terribad seems to be based on just the Gallente hulls....
Maybe do to the fact that the "dirt map" all Gallente ships includes all the color minus the base green and the chrome layer. If you compare this to every other faction, the difference between Medium and High is nearly indistinguishable. It seems that it is just the gallente hulls that have this issue. Have you even considered this?
Instead of pulling out your soap box and telling all the dissidents to bugger off with their opinions (essentially that is your tone), why don't you take some time to see what the problem we are actually seeing is...
Gallente hulls need to be brought up to be comparable to the other factions. Every other faction essentially only loses the shiney reflection whilst stepping the graphics down from High to Medium to Low. Except for Gallente. Please don't make me take a pic of every ship in all three settings to show you, when you could do it yourself, by just simply looking at the ships.
-edit- Abaddon is a great example of the difference. Compare the Abaddon in all three shader settings...note the lack of change of actual color (just some dirt and details are added). Now do the same with the Megathron, the color changes between each one. |
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Meloni HELL
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
21
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Posted - 2014.12.13 02:41:58 -
[121] - Quote
If it helps, I really like the vibrant green on the CreoDron ships. I was never a fan of the blue, and the new shiny makes it feel more Gallente to me. I do find the Minmitar BrownRed panels look a little flat / dull - almost as if they need a rougher texture - this may be due to the Minmitar models being quite old compared to many other ships as well though. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3191
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 04:20:04 -
[122] - Quote
Meloni HELL wrote:I do find the Minmatar BrownRed panels look a little flat / dull - almost as if they need a rougher texture - this may be due to the Minmatar models being quite old compared to many other ships as well though.
While this isn't completely true for all the Matari ships, it's exactly the problem that the freighters, carrier and supercarrier are having. They look good but they're entirely too smooth.
Additionally, some Creodron ships look good and others look ... less good. The Helios, for example, is one of those CreoDron ships that looks nigh-on amazing. The Eos is pretty good as well. The Ishtar, however, doesn't look very good. I think it has to do with how much of the ship is chrome compared to the lower-gloss grey. The Helios, for example, has almost no chrome and all of the shine is from CreoDron Green. The Eos is very similar, with its chrome being reasonably spread out over the whole ship in a balanced sort of fashion. The Ishtar, meanwhile, has a lot of chrome and not as much grey, with that chrome oftentimes bordering right up against the shiny green.
As an unrelated side note, I said there'd be a bit of a firestorm over Serpentis ships turning grey instead of being black (the black that's used as an accent on SOCT ships would be perfect as Serpentis black btw) and it seems there's a few complaints trickling into the forums... |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4026
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 04:50:35 -
[123] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:The reason this is the case is that high and medium each use the PBR lighting model, but medium reduces the shading operations by 50% by removing the dirt maps.
Low turns off PBR and uses a much simpler lighting model, but because even low-end GPUs can handle dirt maps with the simpler lighting model, Low uses them. Because Low uses dirt maps and doesn't support reflection, colors are more saturated and there's a feeling of more detail, but on Low you don't get the feeling of materials being differentiated in the same way.
If you have to use Medium shader settings to get decent performance, you might want to try both Low and Medium to see which you prefer. Or, you may be able to get away with High if you change other settings.
Hope that helps a little bit. It does. Is there anything that can be done to tweak the medium shader? ie: 1. High = PBR, dirt map 2. Medium = Phoebe lighting, dirt map 3. Low = Simple lighting, dirt map
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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marVLs
687
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 09:41:34 -
[124] - Quote
Art team best team! PBR changes are very good, and some minor glitches will be fixed.
Just don't worry about those spoiled kids ;) |
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
393
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 10:49:33 -
[125] - Quote
Some ships' texture quality/resolution leaves something to be desired. As examples I'll just name the new Rook and Falcon as well as the Orthrus.
Their texture just seems incredibly blurry and low-res. |
Arthur Aihaken
X A X
4027
|
Posted - 2014.12.14 18:08:21 -
[126] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Art team best team! PBR changes are very good, and some minor glitches will be fixed. Just don't worry about those spoiled kids ;) The problem isn't PBR; it's the absence of the dirt map under the Medium shader setting. If the art team had provided more insight from the outset it would've helped most of us in trying to troubleshoot where the visual problems on our end were.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
423
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 07:55:38 -
[127] - Quote
I have absolute max graphics and ships like Taranis look like made from miniature model plastic with the grey parts being left unpainted and the rest painted with gold paint.
So if it's an intent that taranis is made of plastic i guess kudos to you but otherwise not exactly a home run. |
Medal Seeker
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.12.17 16:25:52 -
[128] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:According to last devblog by CCP Seagull, there will be coming a new way of rendering that will use shaders more realistically, so far the gif seen looks really shiny, but I went to SISI just to witness it for myself, logged in with my carebearing toons, and found this: http://i.imgur.com/775B2yt.jpg On the left monitor you can see TQ, on the center you can see SISI, on the right monitor you can see a sidemount tech diver on a mexican cenote, totally irrelevant. I've been expecting the upcoming devblog but I haven't seen it so far so here i go: Why does it looks like duck diarrhea? With the old rendering you can see this chromatic shader rainbow style typical of Sansha ships and all the hues of the green-ish hull, with the new rendering, well, it indeed shines more, but its... dull, I agree that reflecting the enviromental light is a step forward, but don't disregard the original feel of the ships... I also took a closer look to the ships on the gif, the Apoc looks really nice, relly really nice, also does the Orcale, then I went to see my other favourite ships, the Paladin for example, the red ain't red anymore, looks dull again, damped, yeah I know that the surface is different, its matte, its not supposed to reflect the light in the same fashion than the golden polished surfaces but still... paladin aint golden and red anymore :c it looks shinny gold and damped red. Same happens with Gallente ships, I took a closer look at the Brutix, at first glance it looks neater, but when comparing them: http://i.imgur.com/5QfjrNL.jpg Same thing happens, shinny parts look good, but matte parts look too damped. So, what I'm saying about the Nightmare is not the same than the other, about the nightmare I insist that it kinda lost its essence, that rainbow chromatic shader its almost gone, and it looks too much dull green. About the Paladin and Brutix, what I'm saying is that the matte colours look too dull. On the other hand I must say that I can appreciate much more the volume created by parallax, which is really nice.
NICE RACK !!!!
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