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TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 15:44:00 -
[1 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 15:45:32 (*4) Hard profit numbers and examples Assuming the 30% profit rate (5% weekly interest and 5% setup fee), and the BMBE keeping half of this, there's 15% left for the shareholders to be paid out as dividend. Example of dividend per month: a) 10B worth of Phase 1 shares have been sold The AMOL is 10B The return on each share will be 15% I.e. 7.5M ISK per 50M share b) 50B worth of Phase 1 shares have been sold The AMOL is only 10B (as above) The return on each share will be 3% I.e. 1.5M ISK per 50M share c) 50B worth of Phase 1 shares have been sold The AMOL is 50B The return on each share will be 15% I.e. 7.5M ISK per 50M share The BMBE takes it's half of the profit as payment for doing all the daily work involved in running the BMBE. While the shareholders gets the remaining half for putting up the necessary capital to make the BMBE possible. The daily work includes but is not limited to: - Customer relations. - General management of the BMBE (this includes checking wallet entries from client deposits...) - Escrow handling - Hauling and recycling of collateral from defaulted loans - To turn it back into ISK for the shareholders. Should the BMBE *really* take of (and have lots of defaulted loans) some of this work could get contracted (making jobs) - Programming of the BMBE interface, and maintenance and development of it. - Depending on the success of the BMBE, a sales site will also be developed for selling of items, instead of just recycling them - Further increasing shareholder profit (this will however only be done if the volume is high enough to justify the extra work involved)(*5) Worth noting is the effect on dividend the triggering of a new phase will have: Each time a new Phase triggers, the return on each share will drop, and then climb again, as the AMOL climbs. For each new Phase, this drop will be smaller and smaller, as more people have shares, and thus the increased number of shares will have less of an impact Examples i) Phase 1 to Phase 2: Just before Phase 2 is triggered, the shareholders are having a 15% return on their ISK Immediately after Phase 2 is triggered (assuming all 50B worth of shares sell instantly, and the AMOL doesn't change - i.e. stays at 50B ISK) the return drops to 7.5% (twice as many shares to share the same amount of dividend) ii) Phase 9 to Phase 10: Just before Phase 10 is triggered, the shareholders are having a 15% return on their ISK Immediately after Phase 10 is triggered (assuming all 50B worth of shares sell instantly, and the AMOL doesn't change - i.e. stays at 450B ISK) the return drops to 13.5% (as its only a 10% increase in number of shares - and not a doubling)BIG Lottery [u
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 15:44:00 -
[2 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 15:46:21 IPO Details for BIG Merchant Bank of EVE (BMBE) The IPO will be done in phases of 50B ISK worth of shares per phase. Depending on the success of the BMBE, it's possible that only one phase will ever happen(*2) . Each share is initially valued at 50M ISK. Payment to be made to "TornSoul" The shares are non-voting shares (You will have no say in BMBE business). The shares will have dividend paid out on a monthly basis(*3) . The dividend will consist of 50% of the profit the BMBE makes. The BMBE keeps the remaining 50%(*4) Shares will be sold on a first come first serve basis - Counting from when the ISK is deposited. Any deposits after all shares have been sold, will be returned This post will be updated to reflect the availability of shares Currently available number of shares at 50M ISK each : 1000 BMBE Business Plan The BMBE Business Plan is at it's core very simple. Lend out ISK, and take a weekly interest + Start-up fee. Clients however need to prove their creditworthiness, in the form of assets put on escrow, for BMBE to hold until the debt has been repaid. Assets can be from any location in EVE, and can be co-located. Failure to meet weekly rates (on time) will default the loan, and result in loss of escrowed property. There is no minimum or maximum to the lenght of a loan. It can be as short as a week, and can be as long as to run indefinetely (not advisable however) Loans are provided at 75% of the mineral value of the assets. The above also implies that only assets that can be recycled into minerals will be accepted. The mineral values used by the BMBE to estimate property value are 'conservative'; hence the 75% number is not 100% accurate. A sophisticated web-site has been developed to aid both clients and BMBE staff in the loan transactions. Loantakers will immediatly be able to see their possible loan value, as items are put into a 'shopping-basket', and of course keep track of any existing loans and paydates and amounts etc. More on the BMBE website and it's usage to be revealed in a week, as this post concentrates on the IPO, and not the excact details of how the BMBE is administrated.Profit estimates for the BMBE With 5% interest per week, and a 5% initial setup fee. These values are not fixed, and could change over time, as the success of the BMBE business dictates it. (Changing values will however not affect already established loans. Their rates are 'locked in') Maximum return per month: - 40% of the Average Monthly Outstanding Loans (AMOL)(*1) (avr. ISK on clients hands each month) - Happens if all loans are paid back after 1 week ((5%+5%)*4) Minimum return per month: - 20% of the AMOL - Happens if all loans run for more than 4 weeks (5%*4: The 5% setup fee being paid in the month prior) The effect of defaulted loans, can never bring the profit below 25% - i.e. if all loans default. As thats the built in margin for offering the loans in the first place. Remember that shareholders get half of the profit, and the BMBE the other half It's hard to predict the average loan length, but as the above max/min examples show, the profit (and thus dividend) of the BMBE greatly depends on it. An average loan length of 2 weeks seems a reasonable estimate, giving a profit of 30% of AMOL per month for the BMBE. The 30% figure will be used for the further explanations of shareholder profit estimates.BIG Lottery [u
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 15:44:00 -
[3 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 15:45:18 (*1) AMOL explanation: If 10B gets lent out each Monday, and gets repaid the next week, then "turnaround" is 40B, but the AMOL is only 10B. If 10B gets lent out at the start of the month, and gets repaid at the end of the month - Both the "turnaround" and the AMOL is 10B.(*2) The trigger for a new IPO Phase can/will happen if: (I'm aware that also calling a 2nd phase an IPO is a bit of a misnomer, but the term is being used for ease of reference Technically it's a SOM, Second Market Offering) 1: The AMOL hits a multiple of 50B (the amount raised per phase) - and thus more ISK is needed to keep running the BMBE. I.e. Phase 2 gets triggered at an AMOL of 50B, Phase 3 at an AMOL of 100B and so forth. 2: It's estimated that the BMBE shares market can bear a release of another 50B worth of shares - without shares dropping (significantly) in value. The indication for this (among other things) being 'overheating' of the market, sending share values to two or three times their original value. This situation is *extremely* unlikely to ever happen - But the BMBE reserves the right to utilize this option to trigger a new IPO Phase, to capitalize on the overheating. Shares sold in Phases 2 and onward will be sold at 'market value' (i.e. any trading going on will be monitored), but not less than the initial 50M per share (should that somehow occur) For the effect on dividend, for existing shares, a new phase has, read (*5) (*3) Defaulted loans will take some time to be realized. That is, items need to be hauled/recycled/sold - and this takes time. Profit from defaulted loans will be paid out as dividend in the month they are realized - As opposed to the month where the loans default.BIG Lottery [u
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 15:44:00 -
[4 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 15:45:43 The BMBE reserves the right to, at any time, without notice and without consulting with shareholders, to change the interest rates of the BMBE, or make any other changes it sees fit to the operation of the BMBE. The BMBE will however always strive to only make such changes in an efford to improve shareholder dividend, as it itself will benefit from this directly.BIG Lottery [u
Rukaz
Posted - 2006.01.28 15:52:00 -
[5 ]
Edited by: Rukaz on 28/01/2006 15:52:48 I'm interested in investing in this venture purely because it is so ambitious. Whether it comes to fruition or not, I am concerned by BIG's lack of political neutrality. What is your position on this? Rukaz
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 15:56:00 -
[6 ]
As with the BIG Lottery, the BIG Deal, BIG Sales and various other efforts (Joivien collection, 2 championship bettings...) 'spearheaded'/lead by BIG employees, BIG 's involvement in EVE politics will have zero bearings on the excution of these undertakings. I do belive our track record on these matters are pretty good BIG Lottery [u
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.01.28 15:58:00 -
[7 ]
I'm sure that this venture, like the BIG lottery, will prove politically neutral in all respects. Anyway, nice to see something like this finally take off. Altho if I'd be in the buisiness of picking nits, I'd remind you that this is actually a pawnshop, not a banking enterprise
Hellspawn01
Posted - 2006.01.28 15:58:00 -
[8 ]
Quote: Clients however need to prove their creditworthiness, in the form of assets put on escrow, for BMBE to hold until the debt has been repaid. Escrow works only for 7 days so a pilot can run with the loan and you loose isk. How do you solve that? ------Blog Ö WTS Core-X kinetic hardener
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:00:00 -
[9 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Quote: Clients however need to prove their creditworthiness, in the form of assets put on escrow, for BMBE to hold until the debt has been repaid. Escrow works only for 7 days so a pilot can run with the loan and you loose isk. How do you solve that? Quote: Clients however need to prove their creditworthiness, in the form of assets put on escrow, for BMBE to hold until the debt has been repaid. BIG Lottery [u
Goberth Ludwig
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:01:00 -
[10 ]
It seems you put an impressive ammount of work in it, good luck TS - Gob (also known as Admiral Goberius)
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:02:00 -
[11 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine I'm sure that this venture, like the BIG lottery, will prove politically neutral in all respects. Anyway, nice to see something like this finally take off. Altho if I'd be in the buisiness of picking nits, I'd remind you that this is actually a pawnshop, not a banking enterprise You are ofc correct Rod, it has aspects of both (Bank/pawnshop) And to be fair, due to the often 'less than stellar' reputation most pawnshops has, it was decided to go with a 'less tainted' name - i.e. calling it a Merchant Bank.BIG Lottery [u
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:05:00 -
[12 ]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 28/01/2006 16:06:40 Oh, so would I in your place. It's an intitiative people have thought about since 2003, but always the sheer effort that has to go into an enterprise like this has scared off us would-be bankers. I'm sure this will result in a few mentions in some intersting blogs and articles about MMO's etc. Never have I seen a game that allowed advanced corporate initiatives like these (or ISS's, or even the impressive NAGA network).
Deovina
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:09:00 -
[13 ]
Edited by: Deovina on 28/01/2006 16:11:06 So each phase would be 50b (I'm a bit confused because you use 10 in the examples)? When would the shares being given out? The most likely investment would be T¦ BPOs (timefactor, amount of capital needed). Don't you think that 50b or even multiple 50b is more than needed? Even given the potential rise of auction prices due to more available capital. What happens should BMBE fail (due to lack of interest) to the shares? Does BMBE or BIG by shares themselves or only act as mangement? Except from that great effort :) should go without saying.
Temi
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:09:00 -
[14 ]
sounds cool \o/ altho question: "Clients however need to prove their creditworthiness, in the form of assets put on escrow, for BMBE to hold until the debt has been repaid." will this policy be used in 100% of the cases, or will you be interested in setteling for no/little/less collateral, assuming one can prove oneself to be trustworthy enough? Spelling errors ahoy..
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:14:00 -
[15 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 16:22:31 Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 16:14:57 Originally by: Temi Edited by: Temi on 28/01/2006 16:10:31 sounds cool \o/ altho question: "Clients however need to prove their creditworthiness, in the form of assets put on escrow, for BMBE to hold until the debt has been repaid." will this policy be used in 100% of the cases, or will you be interested in setteling for no/little/less collateral, assuming one can prove oneself to be trustworthy enough? or settle for more actual values, than mineral values in some cases, like a HAC bpo counting as 1billion collateral, for example :) This whole undertaking means a HUGE administrative burden. So to keep it as simple as possible (and thus try and lessen the admin burden) *only* items that can be recycled into mineras will be accepted as security. Prices on especially t2 BPO's can litterally change by multiple billions over night (nerfing/patching) - So not only would the risk simply be too great to base loans on these, but it would also increase administration.BIG Lottery [u
Kaejona
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:18:00 -
[16 ]
when can we start to sign up ? :D (i.e. sending you the cash) althought i'd appreciate it if you answer the last questions first :) (what happens with the money if the project fails)
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:20:00 -
[17 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 16:21:59 Originally by: Deovina Edited by: Deovina on 28/01/2006 16:11:06 So each phase would be 50b (I'm a bit confused because you use 10 in the examples)? When would the shares being given out? Shares are available as of this post. Simply make your purchase by wiring a multiple of 50M ISK to my wallet (before stock runs out) Originally by: Deovina The most likely investment would be T¦ BPOs (timefactor, amount of capital needed). Don't you think that 50b or even multiple 50b is more than needed? Even given the potential rise of auction prices due to more available capital. See my answer in my previous post about t2 BPo's Originally by: Deovina What happens should BMBE fail (due to lack of interest) to the shares? They (the shares) become (next to) worth less Thats the risk with shares. Originally by: Deovina Does BMBE or BIG by shares themselves or only act as mangement? Neither BMBE or BIG has any plans of buying shares atm. But theres nothing stopping it really.BIG Lottery [u
Deovina
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:23:00 -
[18 ]
Originally by: TornSoul Originally by: Deovina The most likely investment would be T¦ BPOs (timefactor, amount of capital needed). Don't you think that 50b or even multiple 50b is more than needed? Even given the potential rise of auction prices due to more available capital. See my answer in my previous post about t2 BPo's Sorry I wasn't precise here. I meant: The most likely investment costumers of BMBE would take are T¦ BPOs due to the timefactor involved in auctions. Don't you think that 50b is more than needed given the current T¦ BPO auction market? And will the first phase be 50b or 10b?
Kaejona
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:23:00 -
[19 ]
mh, so if you get the 50B together, but no one is interested in doing it, the shareholders lose out and you keep the money ? (sorry for sounding this harsh, just checking if i get it right)
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:34:00 -
[20 ]
Originally by: Kaejona mh, so if you get the 50B together, but no one is interested in doing it, the shareholders lose out and you keep the money ? (sorry for sounding this harsh, just checking if i get it right) By "doing it" I'm guessing you are refering to "taking out loans" (and thus generate income for the shareholders). If noone does that - Then there will be no dividend to pay out. Simple as that. So whether your invest or not, should (among other things) depend on whether *you* think that will happen or not. It's only a question of how long you dare think about it As for 'keeping the ISK'. Yes, the ISK will be kept by the BMBE. But, while this might sound as 'free ISK', it's not. Those ISK will forever be 'locked up' (cant be used), as they might in the future be needed (should a client suddenly come along wanting a 20B loan or whatever) In other words - We (BMBE/BIG ) can't simply 'pocket the ISK' and spend it on "exotic" gallente holoreels and spiced wine BIG Lottery [u
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:36:00 -
[21 ]
Originally by: Deovina Sorry I wasn't precise here. I meant: The most likely investment costumers of BMBE would take are T¦ BPOs due to the timefactor involved in auctions. Don't you think that 50b is more than needed given the current T¦ BPO auction market? Hmm.. I'm sorry, but I'm simply not sure what you are asking... Originally by: Deovina And will the first phase be 50b or 10b? 1000 shares @ 50M ISK each = 50B ISKBIG Lottery [u
Kaejona
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:40:00 -
[22 ]
Edited by: Kaejona on 28/01/2006 16:40:58 alright but in the event of the buisness going not so good (hardly any loaning, not the expect turnover; i'm sure you got target numbers in your head about it ), would you decide at a certain point to close down the bank ? And if so, would you return the invested money then ? Don't get me wrong, i'm only looking to saveguard money i intend to invest. Having no profit out of it would be something i can live with (although it would be most unfortunate as BMBE is definitly an innovative idea), but loosing the invested capital totally is something i do not dare to risk. If you gurantee by your word (which is more then enough for me) that you return invested capital in case of a buisness failure, i would immediatly send 500M your way
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:52:00 -
[23 ]
Originally by: Kaejona Edited by: Kaejona on 28/01/2006 16:40:58 alright but in the event of the buisness going not so good (hardly any loaning, not the expect turnover; i'm sure you got target numbers in your head about it ), would you decide at a certain point to close down the bank ? And if so, would you return the invested money then ? Don't get me wrong, i'm only looking to saveguard money i intend to invest. Having no profit out of it would be something i can live with (although it would be most unfortunate as BMBE is definitly an innovative idea), but loosing the invested capital totally is something i do not dare to risk. If you gurantee by your word (which is more then enough for me) that you return invested capital in case of a buisness failure, i would immediatly send 500M your way Should the BMBE bomb completly and we decide to close up shop - I dont see us not returning the ISK to investors. Thats the BIG way. We arent her to scam anyone.BIG Lottery [u
Selena Sellion
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:54:00 -
[24 ]
The problem as I see it, is that if you have an asset worth 133% of what you want to borrow, and it doesnt matter that that asset is unavailable to you until you repaid the loan, then you could just sell the asset and get 33% more ISK and have no repayment/interest issues as you would in a scheme like this. As an example, please try to describe the type of person/corp/situation that would use this service, what collateral they would provide and why they would do it.
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.01.28 16:55:00 -
[25 ]
Hmm, TornSoul. Something I just thought up that enables larger loans and even loans that are undersecured or paid for by fee rather then intrest: How to secure (a) tech2 bpo('s) as loan collateral without it losing its functionality. In short: altcorp -> two members, one bank, one client -> ceo alt resigns/gets deleted whatever after setting appropriate rights to both remaining members -> collateral bpo is locked down in viewable hangar and open to be used by both members (copy, research, produce) according to agreement -> collateral BPO can only be unlocked by voting in a new ceo -> both members however hold 50% of the shares each so to unlock the BPO or even change the possibilities each of you has to use it consensus is required. A bit of a long workaround, but I could imagine that this would enable true investment and loaning in a limited number of high-roller cases. Anyway good luck, gotta go make dinner.
Cpt Pugwash
Posted - 2006.01.28 17:30:00 -
[26 ]
This is something Eve has been waiting for, and the next time some sponger asks me for a loan I can simply point them to BMBE happy in the knowledge I will be making some isk out of them Better to have a couple of billion invested in BMBE than sitting in your wallet ready to be spent the next time you want a Malkuth heavy missile launcher.
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 17:33:00 -
[27 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 17:37:16 Originally by: Selena Sellion The problem as I see it, is that if you have an asset worth 133% of what you want to borrow, and it doesnt matter that that asset is unavailable to you until you repaid the loan, then you could just sell the asset and get 33% more ISK and have no repayment/interest issues as you would in a scheme like this. As an example, please try to describe the type of person/corp/situation that would use this service, what collateral they would provide and why they would do it. Have you ever tried to liquidize large amount of assets because you where short on cash - and *really really* wanted a new Bship (or whatever) Theres several factors here. For one, it takes time, potentialyl lots fo time if your assets are scattered all over the universe. You could escrow everything ofc - But we all know how the escrow market looks like... If you wanted to dump the stuff *really* fast, you'd most likely get even less than the 75% (if it sold at all...) The other option is to travel to each region you have assets in, and put up a 'proper' market order (which would also be around for more than just 7 days). Or you could even travel to each location and recycle your stuf yourself (minerals are easier to offload usually) - That is, if you got some decent recycling skills ofc. Bottom line - Regardless what you do, it will take time. Potentialyl lots of time before you get toether the cash you need (and you might even take a huge financial loss if you are realyl pushing to sell the assets (i.e. at very low prices) Not to mention - You might actaully prefer to hang on to some of the stuff. Depending on your play style - it can be advantageous to have assets spread around in different locations. With the BMBE - You get the ISK immeditatly (well.. you might have to wait a few for a BMBE staff member) With the BMBE - You are free of any of the hazzle described above - Traveling etc. With the BMBE - You get to keep your items (once the loan has been repaid) Ofc - All of this 'luxury' comes at a cost - Namely the interest on the loan. So in the end, it will often come down to how you value your time ingame. Do I spend time traveling around liquidizing all my assets on my own - or, do I take a ISK hit, but save a (potentail) large amount of time, where I coudl do other things (like.. make more ISK)BIG Lottery [u
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 17:42:00 -
[28 ]
@Rod Interesting idea. Still doesnt solve the problem of (a few) t2 BPO's fluctuating wildly in its worth due to nerfs/patches. If you can come up with a solution for that, I'm all ears BIG Lottery [u
Leno
Posted - 2006.01.28 17:42:00 -
[29 ]
Originally by: Cpt Pugwash This is something Eve has been waiting for, and the next time some sponger asks me for a loan I can simply point them to BMBE happy in the knowledge I will be making some isk out of them Better to have a couple of billion invested in BMBE than sitting in your wallet ready to be spent the next time you want a Malkuth heavy missile launcher. haha owned anyway good luck to TS and all of BIG, something like this has been needed for a long time and i have to say that this looks pretty solid from where i am sitting. --------------- RIP - Smoske, My Friend
Rod Blaine
Posted - 2006.01.28 18:03:00 -
[30 ]
Originally by: TornSoul @Rod Interesting idea. Still doesnt solve the problem of (a few) t2 BPO's fluctuating wildly in its worth due to nerfs/patches. If you can come up with a solution for that, I'm all ears Well, you could either factor in a nerf risk-premium into the contract, by for example requiring a percentage of the production of said bpo to be held in escrow (in the altcorp corp hangar for example during the period running up to a patch (just in case of stealth nerfs), or even as an additional collateral. But the most clear and risk-free way to do it would be by simply requiring more collateral then needed, and splitting it into diverse categories. Take for exmaple two BPO's as a minimum, with them needing to be in suffieciently different fields to make nerfing of both products at the same time a remote possibility. In essence, that's exactly what a bank does too by using real estate as well as production assets as collateral in most buisiness loans to large companies. In short, you make sure you havent got all your eggs in one basket. But really, Eve doesn't get patched that much. An average of once every 3-4 months maybe. If a loan extends across a patch of ends close to one you'll have to take these additional measures. Hell, you could always use tech1 bpo's as additional backup. Corporations tend to always have a BS bpo or two, and the worth of those isn't impacted much by changes. Valuation of assets and calculation of risk makes banking banking :p Without that, with a 125% collateral requirement, this is indeed not a true loan, just a very andnanced pawning system. I can imagine doing true valuation and loaning would require alot more work still. But that would be a true first however, while this might be interesting, is not really groundbreaking for MMO's just yet. I'd love to see someone in Eve take that little extra step towards starting the first true advanced financial service companies in an MMO. But yeah, maybe too early for that. Pity it's such a pita to adminstrate all this stuff or you could at least try basing collateral value on a percentage of market rates instead of mienral value, or whichever is higher of the two. That would already go part of the way to that new ground. But yeah, it is supposed to be a game, not an accounting career. .
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 18:20:00 -
[31 ]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Pity it's such a pita to adminstrate all this stuff or you could at least try basing collateral value on a percentage of market rates instead of mineral value, or whichever is higher of the two. That would already go part of the way to that new ground. Yup, yup and yup. I'm not ruling it out either. But for starters we will take it slow, and see where it takes us. /me puts wishfull thinking hat on CCP might even pay attention to this, and introduce some tools making the admin easier. Which would give us better time (and maybe tools) to expand the BMBE with things like youve sugested.BIG Lottery [u
Niaski Zalani
Posted - 2006.01.28 18:37:00 -
[32 ]
Mmm it looks like a good plan TS (and a really ambitous one at that)... but, at least for me, there seems to be a big hole in the worst-case logic: Say I invest 1b... and I wait.. and wait... and wait... and nobody (or hardly any) take out loans with the bank... thus, I don't see any proffit off my 1b... and now I read that if this were to happen (if no loans were taken out), then you are just going to keep my bil? Whats up with that? Why not, if after x ammount of time there are no loans taken out (or less then required to generate a good payback for investers), send the isk back to the investors and close up shop? Why should BIG keep my isk if it fails? include 'clue'; if ($youdontliket2prices == 1) { $dontbuyt2 == 1 };
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 18:39:00 -
[33 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 18:39:33 Already answered BIG Lottery [u
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.28 19:13:00 -
[34 ]
I dont know if you answered this or if I understand you correctly but when I read what I read I thought this: Why would people take out a loan at 75 percent of mineral value when they can recycle them for 100 percent of mineral value? The reason why they would not recycle but rather would use your bank would be because in a station where they have their crap there is no market for minerals. So people who can recycle their crap and sell the minerals would not use you. But people who could not recycle their crap would use you. So after some time you are going to have a ton of "assets" all over the universe that you will either have to go collect and transport to a hub for recycling or you will hold them indefinitely. If that happens your bank will collapse. Is there something in your plan that addresses this?
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 19:19:00 -
[35 ]
Your question is : What do we intend to do about all the stuff, we will end up with having spread all over the EVEverse, due to defaulted loans ? As stated, we plan to recycle and sell it - To be used for shareholder dividend. As also stated - If that turns out to be huge amounts - We will probably contract out some of the work (creating jobs) The work involved in this is part of what the BMBE is getting paid for (half of the profit)BIG Lottery [u
Godar Marak
Posted - 2006.01.28 20:02:00 -
[36 ]
So what do you do if lets say BoB and [5] wardec you because they fear you will become to powerfull, destroying every single ship you have?
Professor McFly
Posted - 2006.01.28 20:17:00 -
[37 ]
Can I take out a loan with BMBE in order to afford some shares? __________________Retard's handbook
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.28 20:32:00 -
[38 ]
Originally by: Godar Marak So what do you do if lets say BoB and [5] wardec you because they fear you will become to powerfull, destroying every single ship you have? As said earlier - BIG itself is not touching any of the capital invested. All that ISK has to be 'at the ready' for when a client comes along wanting a loan. Same as BIG dont ever touch the BIG Lottery ISK etc. Originally by: Professor McFly Can I take out a loan with BMBE in order to afford some shares? BIG Lottery [u
j0sephine
Posted - 2006.01.28 20:47:00 -
[39 ]
Mmhm very interesting development; hope it takes off well ^^ (would have more to add, but that forum hoe Rod already covered the pawnshop angle ;s
Coahim Madden
Posted - 2006.01.28 21:22:00 -
[40 ]
Will you only use it to give out loans, or will you also invest in other isk generating projects?
Kerushi
Posted - 2006.01.28 21:33:00 -
[41 ]
Edited by: Kerushi on 28/01/2006 21:34:09 Torn, possible to make an appointment to discuss something? ________________
Saerid
Posted - 2006.01.28 22:22:00 -
[42 ]
Edited by: Saerid on 28/01/2006 22:24:20 Definitely a welcome development. T2 BPO Collateral Model? Nothing says you have to manage those as inanimate objects when used as collateral, if someone hands you a print as a guarantee for a sizable loan. A true lazy-boy model for getting a loan and paying back would be to have the print held by BIG until you've built enough stuff of it (or even taken copies, for smaller workload). And of course due to the inconvenience involved, you could fit in some hefty margins there. (Payment in cash: 20% total interest, payment in T2 items produced: 50% profit ). Never underestimate the power of convenience. "Here's a print, gimme 500 mil. I'll get it back when you've built 75 cerbs out of it?". PS. On second thought, looks like Rod Blaine covered it already. Not surprisingly. So this post is redundant redundant.
Randay
Posted - 2006.01.28 23:37:00 -
[43 ]
Edited by: Randay on 28/01/2006 23:43:10 nm. ------------------------------------------- "Det hSr kan betyda krig!"
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.28 23:49:00 -
[44 ]
10billion isk raised in 8.5 hours or so. Pretty impressive. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Einheriar Ulrich
Posted - 2006.01.28 23:53:00 -
[45 ]
Good Job Torn, im gonna invest....and if i dont get my dividen i will gank you in copenhagen
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 00:43:00 -
[46 ]
/me considers paying out EU's dividend in beer instead of ISK... BIG Lottery [u
Randay
Posted - 2006.01.29 02:09:00 -
[47 ]
errr i hate math, and stuff. can someone maybe make up a practical example of a dividend payout and how long it might take to see a return on say a 1 bil investment of shares? ------------------------------------------- "Det hSr kan betyda krig!"
Callie Nefarious
Posted - 2006.01.29 02:16:00 -
[48 ]
When and where do we see notification of shares purchased?
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 02:33:00 -
[49 ]
Edited by: Baun on 29/01/2006 02:36:25 Originally by: Randay errr i hate math, and stuff. can someone maybe make up a practical example of a dividend payout and how long it might take to see a return on say a 1 bil investment of shares? Best case, about 6 2/3 months I think. That is purely on dividend, not reselling shares. 1billion isk is 20 shares. Best case return (based on 50bil loaned with proper timetable)= 7.5mil per share per month, or 150mil per month for a 1billion isk investment. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 02:34:00 -
[50 ]
Originally by: Callie Nefarious When and where do we see notification of shares purchased? Since TS is probably asleep, I will answer. Shares should be distributed starting Monday, pending how much Nashi's roomate is using the computer :P The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 02:35:00 -
[51 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 29/01/2006 02:36:28 Edit : Baun beat me to it (and yes I'm heading for bed now ) @Randay *Best case scenario* : 7 months. But that is best case (15% return each month) It might as well be.. 3% a month? or... Impossible to know atm. Depends on how much business the BMBE will see. What do you think? @Callie Nefarious Shares will be distributed after the weekend. The BIG un incharge of that is not back until monday.BIG Lottery [u
Niaski Zalani
Posted - 2006.01.29 03:00:00 -
[52 ]
Originally by: TornSoul Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 18:39:33 Already answered D'oh.. the double negative screwed me up... include 'clue'; if ($youdontliket2prices == 1) { $dontbuyt2 == 1 };
Randay
Posted - 2006.01.29 03:39:00 -
[53 ]
It seems very reasonable for the investors, but Im having a hard time thinking of practical situations that someone would take a loan out for. Mostly because of the 75% collateral. Also the value of the collateral will probably change over the course of the loan since mineral prices change all the time, seems like an issue to me. Is it? But then the only thing that doesnt change in value is ISK itself, and why would you put down 75% pure isk as collateral. Its just the collateral part that Im having a hard time with. ------------------------------------------- "Det hSr kan betyda krig!"
Krumpit
Posted - 2006.01.29 04:41:00 -
[54 ]
Edited by: Krumpit on 29/01/2006 04:42:08 I'd like to come at the collateral point from the other angle. Are you worried it might be too popular as a quick recycling service? Mission runners can accumulate junk at a rate of knots all over the place, hanger clearance sales already happen on escrow, can the admin side cope with everyone just dumping all their rubbish on you and taking the cash? (no intention to pay interest or repay loan). Your mineral prices are going to have to compete with market prices at some stage, can they adjust depending on location of assets? (edit: you addressed this one) Anyway it's the same point as Rod's, minerals are just as volatile as any other asset as security, but I appreciate the "keep it simple" plan at this stage is a good one.
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 05:44:00 -
[55 ]
Edited by: Baun on 29/01/2006 05:44:45 Originally by: Krumpit Edited by: Krumpit on 29/01/2006 04:42:08 I'd like to come at the collateral point from the other angle. Are you worried it might be too popular as a quick recycling service? Mission runners can accumulate junk at a rate of knots all over the place, hanger clearance sales already happen on escrow, can the admin side cope with everyone just dumping all their rubbish on you and taking the cash? (no intention to pay interest or repay loan). Your mineral prices are going to have to compete with market prices at some stage, can they adjust depending on location of assets? (edit: you addressed this one) Anyway it's the same point as Rod's, minerals are just as volatile as any other asset as security, but I appreciate the "keep it simple" plan at this stage is a good one. I would think that small loans with collateral all of the place will simply not be in the interest of the bank to bother with. On the other hand, if they do take any loan they are making an automatic 25% profit margin on the good escrowed, which isnt too bad. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Muthsera
Posted - 2006.01.29 07:48:00 -
[56 ]
I'm just totally blown away that a game can do such complex banking buisnesses and get it to work (well, remains to be seen though) but still. I think this will be only an asset for those who have quite a lot of idle money. Becus you can earn those 7.5 mill on each 50 mill whitin a days of effort. And 150 mill on each bill, you can earn in a mather of hours if your good. So my point is that you need to focus this towards low isk earners and high isk holders. I feel the greatest problem you will encounter is reputation and stability. Becus nothing spells disaster for a bank quite as much as instability does. Oh. And isn't EVE in essence founded on confrontation? At any rate. I wish you luck. This will be very interesting to see how it turnes out.My thoughs
Randay
Posted - 2006.01.29 09:27:00 -
[57 ]
how to collect on delinquent outstanding balances? ------------------------------------------- "Det hSr kan betyda krig!"
Silvero
Posted - 2006.01.29 09:53:00 -
[58 ]
Nice project ! Perhaps you should allow smaller loans* without "proper" creditworthiness if the loantaker have a well known creditor or 2 that says aye. But since this needs more work from the bank, meaning talking to the creditor and such, the interest might be a little higher. The higher interest for these kind of loans are also there to cover for any scams. smaller loans = up to perhaps 250-500mil You need an public list of ppl not paying there debts and eventual creditors that also get thier "names" draged through the mud.
Serenity Steele
Posted - 2006.01.29 12:43:00 -
[59 ]
Congratulations on the launch of your BIG business idea Torn Soul. It's been great to see BIG's meta gaming over the years in Eve. Hopefully this will further encourage CCP to support the Share market (Even putting back the share Beta functionality would be an improvement). Breaking new ground is always fun, and I'm sure BIG won't be the last Investment bank in Eve, but being the first is always a blast. The base mineral valuation is a solid way to do it - It sounds more like a mortgage to me than a pawn service. Mortgage your current assets, do something clever with the cash, pay off your mortgage. As a potential investor, I have a few questions: - What is the minimum loan amount that BIG intend to handle? - Will loans be paid out against items that don't refine to minerals (eg. Capital Ships), if yes, then at mineral build cost of the capital components? - What mechanism will be used for re-selling shares on the market (Trusted Broker). Will BIG take a fee from Brokering share sales to 3rd parties? - Will dividends be issued using the in-game share mechanism, or manual transfer? - When will the first loans be offered? - Managing the wallet on weekly interest rates is going to be a challenge. Seeing the web site would greatly improve my confidence as investor. When can we see it?All shares Sold
Karunel
Posted - 2006.01.29 12:50:00 -
[60 ]
Hmm interesting stuff, you seem to be doing too much stuff at once nowadays... Anyway, good luck \o/
Trarah
Posted - 2006.01.29 14:47:00 -
[61 ]
Originally by: TornSoul Edited by: TornSoul on 28/01/2006 18:49:30 (*3) Defaulted loans will take some time to be realized. That is, items need to be hauled/recycled/sold - and this takes time. Profit from defaulted loans will be paid out as dividend in the month they are realized - As opposed to the month where the loans default. is this saying what i think it is. if for example some1 stops paying there loan on week 2, you will not pay out on this untill as you put it they are realized. So if there items are in the middle of no where, and you cant be arsed to get it, then the AMOL is now under value, and the shareholders will get less. please tell me i have got this wrong :/
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 16:18:00 -
[62 ]
@Randay (post #53) Check my answer in post 27 regarding potential customers. About fluctuating mineral prices and the impact on the value of collatoral for existing loans: Mineral prices in general change pretty slow - and we have a built in 'buffer' of 25%. Anyone having a loan running for as long as it would take for mineral prices across the board to change by more than 25%, would be paying a ton of interest. So while they might default the loan in the end, the BMBE would still come out with a profit.@Krumpit (post #54) Are you worried it might be too popular as a quick recycling service? That is indeed a concern. However - 1: We have the advantage of 'dealing in bulk'. Meaning, we wont have to make 60j just to pick up 10K trit. 2: As already mentioned, if the volume of defaulted loans turns out to be really huge, this might actually be an 'advantage' as we would then be able to 'expand' the BMBE with an online shop for items as well. Selling items directly, should yield more profit (for shareholders) than simply recycling the items to minerals (think named modules and the like). The online shop will however only happen *if* the volume is large enough to make it worth the 'development cost' (my time). You concern about mineral prices - See above@Silvero (post #58) Perhaps you should allow smaller loans* without "proper" creditworthiness if the loantaker have a well known creditor or 2 that says aye. For starters we will keep it simple. Once the BMBE has 'stabilized', we will ofc start looking at ways to expand the business. But for now, we simply need to know what we are dealing with first before considering any of all those posibilitites. Nobody knows yet if the BMBE will bomb completly and shut down after a couple of months - or turn into a 1000B a month monster. I suspect however, that it will be somewhere in between those two extremes :)BIG Lottery [u
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 16:19:00 -
[63 ]
@ Serenity Steele (post # 59) - What is the minimum loan amount that BIG intend to handle? - Will loans be paid out against items that don't refine to minerals (eg. Capital Ships), if yes, then at mineral build cost of the capital components? - What mechanism will be used for re-selling shares on the market (Trusted Broker). Will BIG take a fee from Brokering share sales to 3rd parties? - Will dividends be issued using the in-game share mechanism, or manual transfer? - When will the first loans be offered? - Managing the wallet on weekly interest rates is going to be a challenge. Seeing the web site would greatly improve my confidence as investor. When can we see it? 1: For now there will be no minimum. Should a lot of small loans turn out to increase the administrative burden unecessary, this is easy to change. 2: For now: No. Reason beeing I simply havent had the time to implement a recursive value calculation for items that in several steps break down into minerals. It's on top of my TODO list however. 3: We will leave that up to the investors, how they want to go about it.BIG will ofc offer to serve as a trusted 3rd party. For now theres no plans to take a fee for this service. Mainly because we dont expect it to occur frequently just yet, so I think we can 'afford' to do a 'freebie' on that one for now. 4: Ingame mechanics will be used. 5: The BMBE will open for business next weekend. 6: You can see it, once the BMBE is open for business :). The admin side of things will however be hidden to clients, and will only be available to BMBE staff. The client side of things should however give an impression regardless. Clients will be able to have multiple active loans, with each their pay-date, pay-rate, and even different BMBE staff members handling those loans. All this info will be readilly available to the clients.@Trarah (post #61) We cant pay out ISK we havent got yet. Simple as that. The effect on shareholder dividend will however just be a 'delay' (unless you are a very short term invester), as the payout simply gets shifted to a later month. We have listed it in the description excactly to allow investors to make up their mind if they like that or not (and thus if they want to invest or not).BIG Lottery [u
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 20:45:00 -
[64 ]
looks like 300 shares have now been sold (15bil isk raised). The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 20:54:00 -
[65 ]
O and one question: BMBE will not be accepting collateral that is in outposts or COnquerable stations, but will be accepting collateral housed in 0.0 NPC stations, correct? The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 21:06:00 -
[66 ]
Outposts no (as they are not in the the data from t20 - and keeps popping up anyhow) Std. conqurable stations : Yes. Some of those BMBE staff might not be able to dock at - But thats really no different than some regular stations in enemy territory (we dont expect carte blanche to go fetch the stuff) So those will have to be dealt with via subcontractors etc.BIG Lottery [u
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 21:08:00 -
[67 ]
Originally by: TornSoul Outposts no (as they are not in the the data from t20 - and keeps popping up anyhow) Std. conqurable stations : Yes. Some of those BMBE staff might not be able to dock at - But thats really no different than some regular stations in enemy territory (we dont expect carte blanche to go fetch the stuff) So those will have to be dealt with via subcontractors etc. Sounds somewhat dicey to me, subcontractors can always get stuff from NPC stations easily, but you really have limited options with conquerable stations. The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.29 21:11:00 -
[68 ]
Indeed. Makes it interesting Needs some wealing and dealing to get done - Which is part of the game I love BIG Lottery [u
Alkad Mzu
Posted - 2006.01.29 21:18:00 -
[69 ]
Excellent initiative, excellent concept. And if anyone can make it work, it's BIG. Best of luck TS =) -- Will sing for funny sig
Verite Rendition
Posted - 2006.01.29 22:41:00 -
[70 ]
How long is it taking shares to go out? I placed an order a few hours ago and still haven't received anything. ---- TribalWar Inc. Director of R&D
Verite Rendition
Posted - 2006.01.29 22:41:00 -
[71 ]
How long is it taking shares to go out? I placed an order a few hours EVE Online | EVE Insider | Forums
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.29 22:48:00 -
[72 ]
Originally by: Verite Rendition How long is it taking shares to go out? I placed an order a few hours ago and still haven't received anything. Asked and answered, read the thread :O The Enemy's Gate is Down
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.01.29 23:04:00 -
[73 ]
Originally by: Verite Rendition How long is it taking shares to go out? I placed an order a few hours ago and still haven't received anything. Shares should start going out tomorrow, when the admin guy is in town for the week. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 186217 |
Archa
Posted - 2006.01.29 23:14:00 -
[74 ]
Edited by: Archa on 29/01/2006 23:17:15 interesting idea and i'll buy 10 shares. Though i have a few concearns: For instance: 1. colleteral in 0 sec space. You say you can use contractors for this. But see, I personally have about 400 million isk valued ore in the delve region. however this is in a station without a refinery. Will i get my 300 million loan? 2. The entire program is a wild succes. within 2 months you are loaning out 50 billion continiously. and you even have to reject people who want to borrow money because there is no money left. Now you say that you can increase your money pool by generating new shares. What will these shares be valued at? will these shares be valued at 50 million? or will these shares be valued at 100 million a share? See, when I buy a share, i don't just want the payout on my share. I want the share itself to increase in value because other people are interested in these shares. There are multiple ways to make these shares continuesly interesting. That is for instance. When you are continuesly loaning 50 billion isk and you just can't keep up wiht the loans. You can increase the interest to 6% or 7.5%. So your investors will get more money. Because it is they who took the risk so why shouldn't they be rewarded for it. 2ndly. if you sell the shares for double the price, this will also be good for the firsttime investors. There are 1000 shares @ 50 mil = 50 billion. so that 5% of 50 bil will be divided by 1000 shares 2.5 bil payout 2.5 mil per share now you create 1000 new shares @ 75 million a piece. this could potentionally create 5% of 125 divied by 2000 shares. 6.25 bil payout = 6.25 mil per share. What i'm trying to say is, if you say you have the right to create new shares. I for one want to know that you don't make new shares at the first share price. but that you will be making shares at the current stock value. if people want to buy new shares at 100 million instead of 50 million then you sell them for 100 million and not 50. Now then your shares will be very interesting if you ask me.
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.01.29 23:42:00 -
[75 ]
Originally by: Archa 1. colleteral in 0 sec space. You say you can use contractors for this. But see, I personally have about 400 million isk valued ore in the delve region. however this is in a station without a refinery. Will i get my 300 million loan? Sure. Everywhere - Everything. Originally by: Archa 2. What will these shares be valued at? will these shares be valued at 50 million? or will these shares be valued at 100 million a share? Shares sold in Phases 2 and onward will be sold at 'market value' (i.e. any trading going on will be monitored), but not less than the initial 50M per share (should that somehow occur). Point 5 in the third initial post by TS then reflects on revised dividends in the case of further IPOs. We won't force a value on the shares, that's up to the shareholders to do. I think this pretty much assauges any doubts you had. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 262751 |
Haniblecter Teg
Posted - 2006.01.30 00:42:00 -
[76 ]
Only 75% of hte mineral value? I believe you'll need at least 50% in order to get any takers. Esp. at 5% and a tight repayment schedule you expect. Also, how can anyone make > 25% profits in the space of a month after taking out a loan? You'd need to pull in about 40% profits in order for a person to get any gain from borrowing. Also, what kind of things will people be taking loans out for? Surely not PvP or for wars. Most likely t2 production/BPO buying. And frankly, I think alot of people dont understand the small margins that t2 production usually offers. IDK, sounds fun. You have my best of wishes. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Zembla
Posted - 2006.01.30 01:23:00 -
[77 ]
Not sure if this has been asked already but; if a person invested 50M, but later on decided he would like to pull out, how would this be realised? Is this not possible? Would the Bank fill the 50M gap, or would the share be available for sale? Also, if a share is intially worth 50, and let's say the initiative becomes a sounding succes, how would the value of the shares adapt to this? Can these shares be sold? Or are they just a mean of rallying money for the required initial capital? Another concern of mine was how you would make yourself visible? For an operation like this I can imagine having forum coverage won't suffice. Is there anything specific planned to attract customers? Sorry if the answers to my questions are considered general knowledge, but I'm not all that familiar with how shares fit into EVE :) <Z> Spread the Z
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.30 02:22:00 -
[78 ]
Originally by: Zembla Not sure if this has been asked already but; if a person invested 50M, but later on decided he would like to pull out, how would this be realised? Is this not possible? Would the Bank fill the 50M gap, or would the share be available for sale? Also, if a share is intially worth 50, and let's say the initiative becomes a sounding succes, how would the value of the shares adapt to this? Can these shares be sold? Or are they just a mean of rallying money for the required initial capital? Another concern of mine was how you would make yourself visible? For an operation like this I can imagine having forum coverage won't suffice. Is there anything specific planned to attract customers? Sorry if the answers to my questions are considered general knowledge, but I'm not all that familiar with how shares fit into EVE :) <Z> If you invest and later need the money you invested you need to find someone to sell the shares to. As most things go the prices of the shares will depend upon their availability and the success of the venture. If you want to sell and no one will buy your shares at any price then they are worthless (which would be essentially impossible if the bank still exists and is loaning money), but if you want to sell and the shares are valued at 2 times the IPO price then you would have doubled your money + whatever you realized from dividends. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Masa Thavia
Posted - 2006.01.30 04:39:00 -
[79 ]
Torn will you be compiling a list of investors (or anything else to let us know that you've received our money - prefarably not evil laughter)? Gracias
Zooish
Posted - 2006.01.30 08:57:00 -
[80 ]
Quote: Torn will you be compiling a list of investors (or anything else to let us know that you've received our money - prefarably not evil laughter)? I believe a list of investors would be confindential, as many would prefer and expect "not to be named"
Serenity Steele
Posted - 2006.01.30 09:44:00 -
[81 ]
Thanks for the answers, a few more questions: As a shareholder vote is required to issue more shares, how will BIG react if the majority don't want to expand the shares available (eg. to guard share value), will BIG create a second corporation to force the issue? Will BIG take the financial hit on behalf of the shareholder if goods are lost in-transit or will it come out of the BMBE fund profits or 50/50? eg. From Conquerable stations, War against Fountain Alliance, Random Bad-Luck on alt corp haulers, All shares Sold
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.30 15:17:00 -
[82 ]
You are not worried that this idea will destroy your reputation and your friends? If it does not work your reputation is gone and gg to you. Right?
Serendipity007
Posted - 2006.01.30 17:35:00 -
[83 ]
Edited by: Serendipity007 on 30/01/2006 17:40:55 Most interesting! If this company is a sucess and more are created like it, we may end up with an EVE stock market, where shares are bought and sold. THAT would truly be interesting. I may talk to my CEO and buy some stock to sell it later when the price goes higher. Would this be ok in the current setup? Edit: Can a character buy shares as a character or will it be on a corp-only basis? Stock Market 4tw! ___________________________________________________ "I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: The Original Series
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.30 17:53:00 -
[84 ]
Originally by: Zooish Quote: Torn will you be compiling a list of investors (or anything else to let us know that you've received our money - prefarably not evil laughter)? I believe a list of investors would be confindential, as many would prefer and expect "not to be named" Such a list is indeed confidential. Only one other BIG un (the one administrating the BMBE holding corp) apart from myself, will know this list. And shares are scheduled to be sent out later tonight. Very first post in this thread will be updated to reflect that. @Serenity Steele 1: Yes a 2nd holding corp is the final solution, should it come to that. 2: Please keep in mind that BMBE is run as a business in itself. ISK is not mixed between BIG and BMBE. (see furthermore previous answer about if BIG gets bogged down in war etc) The only 'mixing' there is, is that BMBE employes (for starters) are all BIG employees as well - and as such recive payment from the BMBE (half the profit) same as the shareholders do (half the profit) As such, any losses incurred by the BMBE, it beeing to lost cargo, or fluctuating mineral prices or... Will be upheld by the BMBE itself, and will mean a reduced profit overall - To both BMBE staff and shareholders. A parallel would be : What would the ISS do, if it's dividend generating outposts all got shut down due to a siege? Thus not generating profit from docking fees. Would the ISS 're-imburse' the shareholders for lost profit on this? @Rthor If it does not work your reputation is gone and gg to you. Right? If it does not work, it will because (not enough) people are interested in taking out loans. I fail to see what impact that would have on the BIG reputation.BIG Lottery [u
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.30 18:08:00 -
[85 ]
Originally by: TornSoul If it does not work, it will because (not enough) people are interested in taking out loans. I fail to see what impact that would have on the BIG reputation. Wow. Tornsoul, do you stand behind this venture? Would you buy the shares yourself?
Kahn Moquil
Posted - 2006.01.30 18:17:00 -
[86 ]
Edited by: Kahn Moquil on 30/01/2006 18:17:55 Originally by: TornSoul A parallel would be : What would the ISS do, if it's dividend generating outposts all got shut down due to a siege? Thus not generating profit from docking fees. Would the ISS 're-imburse' the shareholders for lost profit on this? Not exactly. It's a whole lot less likely that an ISS outpost will be shut down due to a siege, than it is for a random hauler to get popped. Perhaps you can put in a system where you get less loan for your collateral as the security status of the system the collateral is in gets lower? Something along the lines of 75% for all of high sec, 65% for low sec, and 50% for 0.0 space. 0.0 Collateral is after all a bigger risk to you than high sec collateral. And a question. You say that if the BMBE completely bombs, you will return the isk to the investors. I have no doubt that you will do that, but would you be able to give an indication of what you consider failure? Less than 10% of invested funds given out as loans? Less then 5% given out as loans?
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.30 18:21:00 -
[87 ]
Originally by: Rthor Originally by: TornSoul If it does not work, it will because (not enough) people are interested in taking out loans. I fail to see what impact that would have on the BIG reputation. Wow. Tornsoul, do you stand behind this venture? Would you buy the shares yourself? Do you have any conception of what he meant? He is telling you that their administration will not stand in the way of the bank being a success. This means that if the bank does NOT succeed then it will be because no one was interested in using it, not because BIG screwed up running it. The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.30 20:44:00 -
[88 ]
Originally by: Kahn Moquil Edited by: Kahn Moquil on 30/01/2006 18:17:55 Not exactly. It's a whole lot less likely that an ISS outpost will be shut down due to a siege, than it is for a random hauler to get popped. That however is not excactly the correct comparison to make. Instead you should compare : ISS outpost beeing shut down complettly with - BMBE loosing every single hauler. And I agree, neither is very likely. But either can happen to a lesser degree. Originally by: Kahn Moquil Perhaps you can put in a system where you get less loan for your collateral as the security status of the system the collateral is in gets lower? Something along the lines of 75% for all of high sec, 65% for low sec, and 50% for 0.0 space. 0.0 Collateral is after all a bigger risk to you than high sec collateral. I have actually considered that, and the system (DB/website) is ready for it as well. But (for now) I've decided against it, as I prefer to keep it simple (for the clients as well) But - It's easily changable should it be deemed necessary. Originally by: Kahn Moquil And a question. You say that if the BMBE completely bombs, you will return the isk to the investors. I have no doubt that you will do that, but would you be able to give an indication of what you consider failure? Less than 10% of invested funds given out as loans? Less then 5% given out as loans? I will actually prefer not to give any indication of that at this point in time. I'll say as much as, regardless what happens, the BMBE will *at least* 'survive' for 3 months (for word to spread and what not).BIG Lottery [u
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.30 21:23:00 -
[89 ]
Originally by: Baun He is telling you that their administration will not stand in the way of the bank being a success. This means that if the bank does NOT succeed then it will be because no one was interested in using it, not because BIG screwed up running it. But you know Baun it sounds like this what you and Tornsoul are saying: If the bank fails and the shareholders will lose money it is not going to be our fault but it was the risk that you took when you bought shares. And if you lose money dont hold it against us. I dont know how you guys think but if you set something up and it bombs then you better believe that your reputation will suffer regardless of any disclaimers how it would not be your fault. My question really is if you are trading in BIG reputation for an experiment that other people will pay for you to run. At the very least you could treat shareholders or potential shareholders with respect because you are asking for their money. It is a bit rich to say give us money because we are BIG but if it fails you cannot hold it against us in any way and if you do hold it against us you are crazy because we warned you.
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.30 22:19:00 -
[90 ]
Originally by: Rthor If the bank fails and the shareholders will lose money it is not going to be our fault but it was the risk that you took when you bought shares. And if you lose money dont hold it against us. The worst thing that will realistically happen is that no one will want to use the bank and that after X period of time, the bank will dissolve and the money it holds will go back to the shareholders. Quote: My question really is if you are trading in BIG reputation for an experiment that other people will pay for you to run. At the very least you could treat shareholders or potential shareholders with respect because you are asking for their money. It is a bit rich to say give us money because we are BIG but if it fails you cannot hold it against us in any way and if you do hold it against us you are crazy because we warned you. BIG is easily one of the most organized, technically skilled and oldest corps in all of EVE. What Tornsoul is saying is simple; This venture will not fail because of BIG's inadequacy or inability to manage it, but rather has some potential to fail solely because of lack of interest. In that situation it wouldn't particularly be BIG's fault (presuming of course that they have been aggressive in marketting the company), but rather something out of their control. Since they would not then have done anything wrong, their reputation would not suffer. He isn't suggesting that if you somehow lose all of your investment (which is pretty much impossible), that he precludes you from blaming him. Of course, such a notion is entirely nonsensical to begin with so its not even worth discussing it. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.30 22:21:00 -
[91 ]
O and on a more relevant note, there looks to be about 25billion in the coffers now. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Gioto
Posted - 2006.01.31 05:41:00 -
[92 ]
dam, i wanted to start a bank just like you, but you guys have how to do it, i only thought about making one. anyways. good luck with that
Semkhet
Posted - 2006.01.31 12:46:00 -
[93 ]
Good job, Tornsoul, it is a well tought idea. Now, far from disregarding the work involved in launching, maintaining and expanding such a venture, let me focus exclusively on the profit aspect who could benefit to shareholders. I will not address the subject of the intrinsic values of the shares indepht. 1000 shares at 50 mil/unit are a drop in the vast universe of EVE. If you are succesfull, only people in need of immediate isk may sell their shares, therefore it will always be a marginal circumstancial and limited selling move that will not influence share's apparaisal. If you aren't succesfull, share's appraisal will hit the ground and investors will have to wait either until your business finally begins to generate a return, or until you close the bank and refund them. Because no one knows for sure if you will be succesfull or not, there's no sense to loose time debating on this aspect. On the other hand, I personally believe that the return of the shares isn't interesting from an investor perspective. At least if you are not megarich. Why ? Let's look at numbers, taking a shareholders benefit margin of 15% (half of the 30% you stated in your opening examples), and assuming for simplifying calculations that all your 50B isk were raised through 1000 shares at 50 mil/unit: A=AMOL in billion isk B=Monthly return by single share in mil isk C=Effective monthly interest in % D=Annual return by single share in mil isk E=Annual interest by single share in % (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) 10 1.5 3 18 36 20 3 6 35 72 30 4.5 9 54 108 40 6 12 72 144 50 7.5 15 90 180 If your business works, it means that an initial investment of 50 mil isk may generate a benefit anywhere in between 36 to 180 mil after 12 months (I specifically did not compute reinvesting monthly benefits into shares given that the number of shares is very reduced). And here we get a problem. For players with little isk, throwing 50 mil isk into a black box where they don't know when they will ever see their initial isk back again in exchange for a monthly benefit between 1.5 and 7.5 mil doesen't insure a decent living. On the other hand, for medium to rich people used to conduct business, even the best hypothese (monthly 15%) is barely interesting. Anyone with a bit of flair can easely get a monthly return of 150% be it trading, refining,producing, npc'ing, etc... Are left the few megarich players who own way more isk than all what they need to experience every facet of EVE. And I believe it's mainly those who precisely don't really care about what may happen to the bil isk they throw your way, who may find interesting to get some assets parked into your wallet and may be satisfied by such performance in return terms given that this investment will require no or little attention. Anyhow, if this project may help players to reach their goals faster by allowing them to get the right amount of funds at the right moment, then it will be a welcomed and positive service to the community. Good luck
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.31 13:03:00 -
[94 ]
Originally by: Semkhet Anyhow, if this project may help players to reach their goals faster by allowing them to get the right amount of funds at the right moment, then it will be a welcomed and positive service to the community. To think it took 4 pages before anyone even considered this aspect... Says a fair bit about the average EVE player... - or am I just getting a bit too cynical on my 'old' days -------- I think your numbers is a welcome additon (to those already posted) for potential investers. While your arguments about who would find this level of payback (ROI) interesting or not, are valid enough, you are however neglecting one point. You will be getting interest *while* doing whatever else you would be doing anyhow. So you really have to look at it as *additional* income, and not .the. income. I'll again have to draw a parellel to ISS (really the only other one in existence) - Their payback is quite a bit lower than the (best) estimates for the BMBE, yet their share values have both doubled and trippled (going by the actions in the sell forum anyhow) So by that arguement I think the (potential) 15% return per month as actually extremely attractive. And to repeat : It should be looked upon as *additional* income - Supplementing whatever else you are doing. BMBE shares arent sucking away any of your playtime to generate ISK. In the end, It's ofc a matter of point of view.BIG Lottery [u
Semkhet
Posted - 2006.01.31 13:43:00 -
[95 ]
From the perspective of an additional income who doesen't take your playtime away, you are perfectly correct. It may even interest those who have reached the expansion limit of their specific activity in a given location, and don't have time (or the will) to establish further ventures. I've spent a decade myself in the RL banking world, and am well aware of all the advantages & pitfalls of such activity, both from the perspectives of the creditor and the debtor Credits aren't better than the use you make of them. Be smart and they reveal themselves as a worthy service, be dumb and they induce your ruin.
Jarek Naumen
Posted - 2006.01.31 13:49:00 -
[96 ]
I'm getting more and more impressed by the possibilities that Eve offers in each day that passes. This is definitely a ground-breaking undertaking and i hope it will have great succes. Even if it fails i'll gladly risk my ISK to help such a business get started ( and hopefully help myself as well ..we'll see).
Baun
Posted - 2006.01.31 14:59:00 -
[97 ]
Looks like shares were given out yesterday .... so people should have them :O The Enemy's Gate is Down
Distrans
Posted - 2006.01.31 15:23:00 -
[98 ]
Biig Bank: Beyond numbers and payouts (it will be a success) many parties are going to benefit from this reviving the whole galaxy. Loot train is coming your town...respect for working it out.
Distrans
Posted - 2006.01.31 15:26:00 -
[99 ]
Originally by: Semkhet Credits aren't better than the use you make of them. Be smart and they reveal themselves as a worthy service, be dumb and they induce your ruin. So propability and bad luck don't apply to your reality? Quite an arrogant statement...
Serendipity007
Posted - 2006.01.31 16:07:00 -
[100 ]
Edited by: Serendipity007 on 31/01/2006 16:17:27 Edit: I answered my own question. >_< ___________________________________________________ "I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: The Original Series
Semkhet
Posted - 2006.01.31 16:32:00 -
[101 ]
Originally by: Distrans Originally by: Semkhet Credits aren't better than the use you make of them. Be smart and they reveal themselves as a worthy service, be dumb and they induce your ruin. So propability and bad luck don't apply to your reality? Quite an arrogant statement... Sorry if you view my opinion as arrogant, but it is founded on handling directly thousands of credit accounts in RL. Complete bad luck from A to Z is uncommon. The overwhelming majority of failures are statistically related either with bad planning, or unrealistic projections who did not integrate all the factors who may screw up your business. It's scientific m8. One example: you decide to invest and produce a very particular item based on an exclusivity contract of a single buyer because there are almost no other destinations for your product, but you may get a big benefit. Works well until your buyer changes mind. Bad luck ? No, you put yourself since the beginning in a scheme were you don't have a plan B... If in the inverse you produce something with little margin but the nature of the item doesen't limit you to specific buyers, then no matter how the market reacts, you may always find somebody who will need your production. Another one: your assets are located in an area where there was no flooding during the last 30 years, so you don't spend money on the related insurance since decades. Then one day comes the worst rain you ever imagined, and your assets are gone. Bad luck ? No, you simply saved very little money in the wrong area and took an unecessary risk. You gambled, and lost. Etc...
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.31 16:39:00 -
[102 ]
Originally by: Semkhet You gambled, and lost. Etc... Your bank lost...money.
Semkhet
Posted - 2006.01.31 18:13:00 -
[103 ]
Originally by: Rthor Edited by: Rthor on 31/01/2006 17:38:02 Originally by: Semkhet You gambled, and lost. Etc... It is your bank that lost...money. There is no such thing as scientific certainty. In your examples you claim to know what went wrong but if this were known or knowable in advance then the project would never have been undertaken and hence it would not have failed and hence you would not have had your examples. There is quite a lot of arrogance in this thread actually which I find amazing considering that this post seeks investors. I hope that this works, though I see problems in the business plan but it is possible that the business plan will change as these problems are apparent and everything will work out. Respect to Tornsoul for trying something ambitious. I dont personally think that it is such a good deal for shareholders actually because there are better ways of making money out there than giving somebody cash and waiting for some dividens while forgetting that you dont have your principal any more and it looks like you cannot withdraw it in reality. Because if the investors were able to withdraw the money then there would be no bank. It would have been better if BIG somehow demonstrated that they invested their own money in this so that in case of some investors bailing it could be stabilized by BIG cash infusion to match it. Otherwise it is basically BIG playing with other people's money. Yes of course BIG is putting in the work but they are also getting 50 percent of profits so they are paid for their work maybe even better than they could ever hope for or should. Basically if you are a shareholder and the monthly dividend is too small it is partially too small because BIG takes a big cut of profits. Also shareholders have nothing to say in how the business is run. Why would people give money to somebody and have nothing to say about how it is used is beyond me. In this particular case you can invest in a "bank" which can become a "pawn shop" which can then be converted to "recycling plant" and you will be scratching your head what exactly this venture is but will not be able to object to any change in business direction. Whoever mentioned "scientific certainty" ? Not me. I spoke about statistics. The fact is that most projects who meet a negative epilogue contained flaws who were not identified in due time. Genuine screw-ups where the damaged entity had absolutely no possibility to see a catastrophical situation develop beforehand despite having taken all humanely possible precautions do exist, and I have personally also whitnessed them. But they are a very tiny minority. However, if you prefer to focus on the exceptions, it's your right.
Rthor
Posted - 2006.01.31 18:20:00 -
[104 ]
Originally by: Semkhet It's scientific m8.
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.01.31 18:25:00 -
[105 ]
Originally by: Rthor ...there are better ways of making money out there than giving somebody cash and waiting for some dividens while forgetting that you dont have your principal any more... If someone has invested so much ISK that their daily operations (and ISK making) are hindered - Then they have indeed invested too much (IMO). I'll grant you that much. But regardless their level of investment - If that does not influence their daily operations, then they have simply required themself an additional source of income, which costs them no time or effort. Thats the sound way to invest.BIG Lottery [u
Zooish
Posted - 2006.02.01 01:10:00 -
[106 ]
Urm .04 isk Dividend ...... Please tell me it was a test
Cerwyn Taraman
Posted - 2006.02.01 01:17:00 -
[107 ]
Dumb question as i'm new at this, is there an actual physical "share" that we somehow receive in-game via eve-mail or some such or is it just an entry in your database? Thanks, CT
Ronyo Dae'Loki
Posted - 2006.02.01 01:21:00 -
[108 ]
Originally by: Zooish Urm .04 isk Dividend ...... Please tell me it was a test Ya it was to tell you what % of the stock you owned. So you apparently own 40 shares :O -------------My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . )
Callie Nefarious
Posted - 2006.02.01 08:13:00 -
[109 ]
Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Dumb question as i'm new at this, is there an actual physical "share" that we somehow receive in-game via eve-mail or some such or is it just an entry in your database? Thanks, CT It will show in your wallet under shares
Galtan
Posted - 2006.02.01 22:01:00 -
[110 ]
I just wanted to check you had received the isk sent on the 30/1. Have read all the posts again and I am not sure what confirmation to expect
Baun
Posted - 2006.02.01 23:11:00 -
[111 ]
Originally by: Galtan I just wanted to check you had received the isk sent on the 30/1. Have read all the posts again and I am not sure what confirmation to expect The confirmation will arrive in the form of your shares, check your wallet. The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.02 20:04:00 -
[112 ]
Seems a couple of investors have had a change of hearth. And have bought even .more. shares BIG Lottery [u
Dunpeal Hunter
Posted - 2006.02.03 13:54:00 -
[113 ]
how many shares can each character or corporation buy?
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.02.03 14:36:00 -
[114 ]
Originally by: Dunpeal Hunter how many shares can each character or corporation buy? As long as there are shares available, you can buy as many of them as you want. I think there are just a little over 400 of the initial 1000 left. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 398860 |
Space Warp
Posted - 2006.02.04 00:21:00 -
[115 ]
About how long does it take to actually recieve the share? I've bought 2 a couple days ago and have yet to have any shares transfered into my wallet.
APEXrevived
Posted - 2006.02.04 01:17:00 -
[116 ]
I'm a new player, but I wanted to make a suggestion that may be helpful. I read through the first 3 pages of the posts but stopped, so forgive me if this has already been covered. I would suggest designating Drop-Off points for the collateral that you collect. This would eliminate some of the overhead in sub-contracting, large hauling distances, losses do to pirates, etc. You could more easily ensure protection of your assets as well. Obviously there would need to be neutral areas in diverse regions to make it a client-friendly endeavor. I would also like to present you with a scenario that could support my idea for you -- I'm a pirate corp that needs money desperately. I decide to capitalize on your business venture. I take out loans which I never intend to pay, and make sure the collateral is left in unsafe areas where I can watch. When you come to retrieve the collateral, I simply pop your hauler and take the collateral back. One last point -- 25% interest rate seems a bit low considering the overhead for this. Also, someone posted the best-case scenario for dividend returns for investors. In that best case scenario with your current interest rate, it would take over 6 months for the dividends to pay back the initial investment. This seems a bit excessive, and if I was a veteran player rolling around in ISK I could think of better things to do with it. Perhaps a higher interest rate or plans for investing the ISK in more than just loans to ensure bigger payback ? All that intended for your benefit. I wish you the best in your endeavor!!! I would love to see you push the limits of this game and be very successful!I thought since this game is called Eve that I'd play a female character. Is that a good enough excuse for a guy?
NeverL
Posted - 2006.02.04 02:15:00 -
[117 ]
it will be quite impossible to cover something 24/7 in empire space. but if the stuff is in 0.5 or higher its possible to get stuff without any risk.
Angelina Starchild
Posted - 2006.02.04 14:32:00 -
[118 ]
Originally by: APEXrevived One last point -- 25% interest rate seems a bit low considering the overhead for this. Also, someone posted the best-case scenario for dividend returns for investors. In that best case scenario with your current interest rate, it would take over 6 months for the dividends to pay back the initial investment. This seems a bit excessive, and if I was a veteran player rolling around in ISK I could think of better things to do with it. Perhaps a higher interest rate or plans for investing the ISK in more than just loans to ensure bigger payback ? Keep in mind that you are probably able to sell your shares when you feel like having your isk back, so you don't have to wait these 6 month before you actually start to make a real profit out of this. See it this way. After 6 month and you have gotten the same amount you invested back in dividend payouts, and then you sell your share for atleast the same amount you bought it. Now that would end up 200% of your initial investment. But yes, unless you have a lot of isk that you can't make use of yourself, you shouldn't invest. Same goes for all types of investments. Why would you invest in something if you can make more money with these money on your own?___________________________________ Ample Shipyards is recruiting
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.02.04 16:14:00 -
[119 ]
A lot of people seem to think we're just starting one BIG hauling operation. It seems popular opinion is the BMBE will just be used as an asset liquidiser. Why is this so? The central idea behind the BMBE is that people will repay their loans to get their assets back. Sure, this may not always happen, but we won't be loosing out because of it. There's also the case of someone escrowing us an enormous amount of collateral in a very unsafe location. I heard pirates and enemies of BIG mentioned. The one simple fact remains is that we still need to accept this escrow and agree to all the terms associated with that. So indeed, if someone tried to escrow us 20 billion ISKs worth of ore in an extremely unsuitable location we would have to think twice about it. That's not saying we wouldn't do it, there's ways and means around every obstacle, but the chances of it happening are slim. Would you stand to loose 5 billion in fees just to 'get at' an enemy? The last few posts have mentioned restricting locations of possible escrow for collateral. This in itself defeats the aims of the BMBE. Everywhere - Everything. Fetching expensive items from the middle of hostile territory is achievable in so many ways. Negotiation, courier missions (this in-game tool may yet be useful), remote sell orders or escorted hauling operations. This one reason is why the BMBE has more chance of success than failure. Instant access to capital, anywhere. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 261087 |
NATASHA MAR
Posted - 2006.02.04 17:40:00 -
[120 ]
ok i have checked in wallet and ive not got a share i sent in my 50 mil as requested even sent in back up evemail to TS but dont have a a share b any kinda confirmation that i have purchased a share, seeing posts supposidly i should see that i have a share in wallet but as yet i dont this is 3 - 4 days on from sending in cash . how long should it take for the share to be sent through to me if this venture is going forwards?
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.04 18:18:00 -
[121 ]
Natasha - You .should. have gotten your share late last night. As thats when I forwarded the (new) list to the BIG un handling the shares. He might not have gotten around to it (RL interference). If thats the case, you will at the earliest be getting it on monday. Theres a month to first dividend payout however - So "Dont Panic" (You can take this post as confirmation that your ISK was recieved btw - I've checked)BIG Lottery [u
NATASHA MAR
Posted - 2006.02.04 20:57:00 -
[122 ]
thanks TS and i hope this venture works out its something that eve's needed for a long time
Elange4
Posted - 2006.02.05 00:35:00 -
[123 ]
I checked out the interface, and used the system earlier today; it's simple to use, professional, and fast. ...not only that, but TornSoul herself was manning the console, and we talked about the project and it's expectations; she answered every question I had with her usual candor and clarity, and I must say that this project is going to raise the level of experience for the whole of EvE - you may not use it, though there will be many who do - and the vision of a true virtual, publicly owned corp is going to transform the way we think about the game. If you're on the sidelines, check out the interface at the website and talk to the members that represent BMBE in the channel of that name. I did, and now I own stock.
Serenity Steele
Posted - 2006.02.05 19:51:00 -
[124 ]
Originally by: Elange4 I checked out the interface, and used the system earlier today; it's simple to use, professional, and fast. Linkage please!All shares Sold
Baun
Posted - 2006.02.05 19:59:00 -
[125 ]
Originally by: Serenity Steele Originally by: Elange4 I checked out the interface, and used the system earlier today; it's simple to use, professional, and fast. Linkage please! http://www.big-eve.com/BMBE The Enemy's Gate is Down
Silver Night
Posted - 2006.02.05 20:51:00 -
[126 ]
Are there any plans as far as promoting this venture? Via forums, eve-radio, IG even? You've got about 100,000 potential customers out there after all, how are they all going ot hear about this? -------------- Silver Night Director -Production and ScienceHave a question about Prime Fiction? Ask here!
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.05 23:52:00 -
[127 ]
Theres already an eve-radio ad running BIG Lottery [u
Serendipity007
Posted - 2006.02.06 16:29:00 -
[128 ]
Good website for starters. The detailed guide has lots of typos though. Sounds like an excellent system you have setup. Good luck on your ground-breaking endeavour! (I'm a shareholder, and I expect a nice profit dividend ^_^) ___________________________________________________ "I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: The Original Series
Aedara
Posted - 2006.02.06 16:51:00 -
[129 ]
I'm wondering, would the shareholders have a look-in on the balance of the 50B isk? What I am asking is, would I, as a shareholder, at any time be able to check how much isk and in what amounts per person have been loaned out? The client's name could remain hidden, the only info sent would be, when the amount of isk has been loaned and for how long.
Odel
Posted - 2006.02.06 19:24:00 -
[130 ]
I see this as a smart move. Especially with capital ships on the rise - imagine an alliance gets its member corps to put in a BS or two each as collaterol to fund the purchase of DN and then pays back over time via mining ops etc. If anyone can make this work BIG can, and they have the track record. I'm gonna grab a few shares. I could even imagine game mechanics evolving to support such a venture, perhaps even a 'loan tax' alongside corp tax controlled by the borrower.
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.06 19:27:00 -
[131 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 06/02/2006 19:29:47 @Serendipity007 I have to admit that the Detailed BMBE guide was done in the last minute. Ie. no proof reading was done - It will get fixed though. @Aedara It is not practically possible to have this info availabe for shareholders only - As we have no control of the movement of the shares, and thus dont know who holds them The plan is however to make public a monthly report.BIG Lottery [u
Aedara
Posted - 2006.02.06 20:56:00 -
[132 ]
That is why I asked if I could enquire as a shareholder. Say u have a designated "shareholders relations" person or something that would handle such matters. I'm sure the investors would be interested to know, when their money gets lent out and for what kind of period and return they can expect, maybe not all, but for some that would be a great help and I'm sure it would also disolve many trust issues. No matter what u say, 50bil isk is no small ammount this day and age.
Asuka Kiddo
Posted - 2006.02.06 21:07:00 -
[133 ]
Originally by: Aedara That is why I asked if I could enquire as a shareholder. Say u have a designated "shareholders relations" person or something that would handle such matters. I'm sure the investors would be interested to know, when their money gets lent out and for what kind of period and return they can expect, maybe not all, but for some that would be a great help and I'm sure it would also disolve many trust issues. No matter what u say, 50bil isk is no small ammount this day and age. qft A Balance sheet is indeed a good idea for both the shareholders to see what their money is doing and for you as BMBE as well to attract possible new investors. Being an auditor in real life .. it's kind of my business. ;) Wondering when the first public auditing firm will open in EVE :P and p.s.: Still waiting for my shares. ;)
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.02.06 22:03:00 -
[134 ]
Any special privileges for shareholders would be impossible to cater for. As TornSoul mentioned, there is no way for us to know who has our shares. Sure, we issued them out to buyers, but they could (possibly already) change hands on several occassions. We cannot track that. A monthly report is the only way for the BMBE to show how much, how long and why for. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 867893 |
Ras Blumin
Posted - 2006.02.06 22:09:00 -
[135 ]
I gave 50m to TornSoul 3 days ago, but still no share. Is the person in charge of shares afk or has my payment been missed?p - l - u - r My first vid
Asuka Kiddo
Posted - 2006.02.06 22:27:00 -
[136 ]
I didn't say the information should be available only for shareholders and only distributed to shareholders. A monthly (or bi-monthly) report on this forum or BiG Forum would do it. One more question: Will there ever be the possibility to open an account and pay in money and get interest in return? Or will BMBE exclusively raise its funds from stock increases?
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.02.07 00:34:00 -
[137 ]
Originally by: Asuka Kiddo I didn't say the information should be available only for shareholders and only distributed to shareholders. Sorry, my above reply was in response to Aedara's comments about a "shareholders relations" person. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 856990 |
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.07 02:40:00 -
[138 ]
Edited by: TornSoul on 07/02/2006 02:40:42 Originally by: Ras Blumin I gave 50m to TornSoul 3 days ago, but still no share. Is the person in charge of shares afk or has my payment been missed? The BIG un in charge (not me) of dealing with the shares has just finsihed distributing all shares bought until now (not counting purchases made in the last few hours)BIG Lottery [u
Asuka Kiddo
Posted - 2006.02.07 17:12:00 -
[139 ]
Sorry for complaining, shares received. tyvm. :)
Kay Brack
Posted - 2006.02.07 17:35:00 -
[140 ]
I may have missed it in the thread but is your bank going to offer user services such as normal deposits and CD's ? It could be that after your innitial IPO gets you rolling that you will find a LOT of liquidity in the offering of interest bearing deposit accounts.
Shar Gath
Posted - 2006.02.07 17:52:00 -
[141 ]
if u cant track the shares owners how do u want to pay out their money? -------------------
Baun
Posted - 2006.02.07 17:59:00 -
[142 ]
Originally by: Shar Gath if u cant track the shares owners how do u want to pay out their money? Via ingame mechanics. They simply distribute X amount of money to the corp share holders as dividend and you get a % of it according to how many shares you own. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Shar Gath
Posted - 2006.02.07 18:10:00 -
[143 ]
-_- -------------------
NATASHA MAR
Posted - 2006.02.07 19:28:00 -
[144 ]
How many shares remain left to be sold now ?
Raem Civrie
Posted - 2006.02.07 19:32:00 -
[145 ]
Originally by: NATASHA MAR How many shares remain left to be sold now ? Check topic. 300-something shares left now --- God-King of Genitalia
Baun
Posted - 2006.02.07 20:24:00 -
[146 ]
Originally by: NATASHA MAR How many shares remain left to be sold now ? 292, but I have a feeling that TS just hasn't updated it today. :O The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.07 21:11:00 -
[147 ]
Updated - 264 BIG Lottery [u
Serenity Steele
Posted - 2006.02.08 00:56:00 -
[148 ]
So it's been open a few days now ... How is the market for Debt in Eve? Anyone borrowed money yet?All shares Sold
BillyBong2
Posted - 2006.02.08 14:09:00 -
[149 ]
Well, I looked at it yesterday and was filling things out. I have more isk in potential BP0s and BPCs then I have on hand :) So, for me to get a loan of say 350 million....would be tuff :) I like the idea and I would definitely like to see what some faction loot would be put up for as collateral.Siggy by Esturary
dralid
Posted - 2006.02.08 23:41:00 -
[150 ]
Interesting, I'll buy one for the fun of it -- All lies!
Serenity Steele
Posted - 2006.02.09 14:49:00 -
[151 ]
Originally by: BillyBong2 Well, I looked at it yesterday and was filling things out. I have more isk in potential BP0s and BPCs then I have on hand :) So, for me to get a loan of say 350 million....would be tuff :) I like the idea and I would definitely like to see what some faction loot would be put up for as collateral. They're not offering loans against BPOs or BPCs atm.All shares Sold
Callan Skiderlar
Posted - 2006.02.10 00:58:00 -
[152 ]
When is the next share disbursement? I haven't seen mine - I'm fine with just a confirm that my order is in process. --- Selling: Naglfars: 2.0B - build queue is: 2 Havoc Precisions: 500k per 1,000 Improved cloaks: 17M
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.10 18:16:00 -
[153 ]
Uhm... Could you double check that? Have you looked in your wallet under the "shares tab" You should have recieved them days ago....BIG Lottery [u
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.11 02:12:00 -
[154 ]
Sounds interesting. Reserve a share for me, ok? I don't have that much money yet.
Elange4
Posted - 2006.02.11 09:29:00 -
[155 ]
So, I just posted a major rant on the BMBE Opening for Business thread. All I intended was to bump these two threads, but I got caught up in the idea that BMBE can succeed where noone has before; I mean, really succeed, beyond what anyone at the moment may guess at. But I think it is essential to address the need for us as investors to be kept informed, particularly at this stage when nothing is critical but Goals and The Market. After all, we're your biggest Believers. Ready, Shoot, Aim!!! --Elange4
Bared Bel'Medar
Posted - 2006.02.12 05:58:00 -
[156 ]
Any shares left? This looks most lucrative, espeically with proper ingame and out of game advertising. I'm definately interested in investing in this one. Imaran looks good in a dress though -Eris Added the '/' that Eris forgot. Da Doc's in da hizzouse! ~kieron
Gray Carmicheal
Posted - 2006.02.12 07:22:00 -
[157 ]
Same here, Contacted Torn last night, but had to hit the bed due to... Marital occurances. But I'll be on tonight again to talk to BMBE again after DT.My sig was CONCORDOKKENED. I blame Wrangler H4x.
NATASHA MAR
Posted - 2006.02.12 07:46:00 -
[158 ]
just a quick question slightly off track is there a big lottery page on forums ?
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.12 08:43:00 -
[159 ]
Ok. I bought a share. Make me rich. Big Rich.
ThePoet
Posted - 2006.02.12 09:36:00 -
[160 ]
whats the expected turn around between the isk being sent for share and a share showing up in my wallet? jsut want to make sure that i actually got the shares before they sell out. thanks
Baun
Posted - 2006.02.12 10:08:00 -
[161 ]
Originally by: ThePoet whats the expected turn around between the isk being sent for share and a share showing up in my wallet? jsut want to make sure that i actually got the shares before they sell out. thanks TS has been updating the post somewhat frequently. My guess is that there may be up to 200 left, so you should probably be safe. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.12 10:12:00 -
[162 ]
I figure to just invest since, you know, TornSoul said she'd reimburse the investment if the shares outstanding run out. And we all know BIG is pretty trustworthy. Sigh. Took me 2 days of playing all day to raise the 20m capital. I really don't think I could raise another 45m in the amount of time before they're all bought out. Oh well. I at least now officially own a little piece of this universe. I hope.
ThePoet
Posted - 2006.02.13 04:37:00 -
[163 ]
been a couple days now. havent seen shares but would like at least a receipt of the money even if it takes a while for the shares to be disbursed.
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.02.13 12:34:00 -
[164 ]
Shares won't be dispersed on weekends, our admin guy isn't around then. Check your wallet later tonight or tomorrow night. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 458180 |
Zafon
Posted - 2006.02.13 13:22:00 -
[165 ]
Great idea, and mostly constructive comments. The one thing I haven't seen (and would expect to see in any kind of IPO documentation) is some kind of estimate of the prospective market's size. The treatment of defaulted loans etc is good. What I'd like to see is your expectations around how much will be on loan at any point in time. I'm thinking seriously about buying some shares :-). Z
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.13 17:57:00 -
[166 ]
Well I'm supposing he is thinking 10 billion will be the AMOL usual, considering the business plan used that as an example. I'm thinking it'll eventually be 50 billion or so, and will skyrocket after awhile. But I'm an idealist with delusions of grandeur...
Hellspawn01
Posted - 2006.02.14 00:41:00 -
[167 ]
I¦m waiting for my share since last week and no reply from Tornsoul yet. Now what? ------ ÖShip lover
Hillesumos
Posted - 2006.02.14 08:46:00 -
[168 ]
Hellspawn, You should receive your share soon. I did after a while but I feel that you should trust BIG corp to do the work successfully. If you really haven't received anything, send maybe an evemail witht the exact date and time of your palyer donation so they can track it. Cheers and welcome to the investor club.... --------- Sadly I just make ISK, I don't print it. :(
Havelcek
Posted - 2006.02.14 15:10:00 -
[169 ]
Are there any shares left? (2/14/06)
Jallen
Posted - 2006.02.14 16:11:00 -
[170 ]
Just a quick question, maybe this has been covered already. It may just be the Fraud Prevention Coordinator in me, but if a person defaults on their loan do they get blacklisted from ever being able to take out a loan again? There's a reason I ask and it has to deal with Corp Theives.
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.14 21:52:00 -
[171 ]
14/02/2006 21:42:06 : 171 shares left. --------- The shares bought over the weekend (and yesterday) should get distributed within the next hours. --------- @Zafon I've very deliberatly not posted any 'this is what I think will happen' numbers. This is completly uncharted territory, and any number I'd come up with would be pure fiction. Instead I've decided to let the shareholders do the talking - So to speak. ------- @Jallen From a pure financial standpoint - Theres no reason for the BMBE to ban clients defaulting on their loans. The BMBE makes ISK for the shareholders either way. Re. the Corp Thieves issue. How would we know? And if someone is a corp thief - I'm sure he is able to shift whatever stuff he has stolen to another char anyhow... So banning anyone would simply just be extra administration, with zero impact.BIG Lottery [u
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.14 23:27:00 -
[172 ]
Torn, I think it would be really neat if you had list of those who had good credit and those who had bad credit. The people who don't default on their loans COULD eventually get more value for their collateral as a sign of good will or trust. Obviously, not over 100%, but maybe up to 85-90%. Could spur business in the longrun.
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.14 23:27:00 -
[173 ]
Torn, I think it would be really neat if you had list of those who had good credit and those who had bad credit. The people who don't default on their loans COULD eventually get more value for their collateral as a sign of good will or trust. Obviously, not over 100%, but maybe up to 85-90%. Could spur business in the longrun.
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.14 23:32:00 -
[174 ]
Ack! Sorry. Um, can a mod please delete this post and one of my double posts?
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.02.15 01:36:00 -
[175 ]
Why does someone defaulting on their loan mean they have bad credit? What if they genuinely just want to get rid of the stuff and don't mind doing it at 75% value? Which is what a lot of people have been looking into doing. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 718140 |
Bared Bel'Medar
Posted - 2006.02.15 02:32:00 -
[176 ]
ok, so who, and when should I contact to buy shares? I must have missed something somewhere. Imaran looks good in a dress though -Eris Added the '/' that Eris forgot. Da Doc's in da hizzouse! ~kieron
Cerwyn Taraman
Posted - 2006.02.15 05:18:00 -
[177 ]
Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 15/02/2006 05:18:59 Bared: Just send the isk to TornSoul and tell them its for X number of shares. The amount each share costs is in the first post for this topic as seen here: Each share is initially valued at 50M ISK. Payment to be made to "TornSoul" CT
Bared Bel'Medar
Posted - 2006.02.15 05:21:00 -
[178 ]
Originally by: Cerwyn Taraman Edited by: Cerwyn Taraman on 15/02/2006 05:18:59 Bared: Just send the isk to TornSoul and tell them its for X number of shares. The amount each share costs is in the first post for this topic as seen here: Each share is initially valued at 50M ISK. Payment to be made to "TornSoul" CT Thanks for the info... I'm sure it in one of those posts, but I was a bit busy sorting projections. must have missed it. Imaran looks good in a dress though -Eris Added the '/' that Eris forgot. Da Doc's in da hizzouse! ~kieron
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.15 05:54:00 -
[179 ]
Hmm. I haven't received my share yet. I believe I sent my payment on the 12th, and you guys said shares were distributed just now, but I haven't received my share yet.
Churches
Posted - 2006.02.15 10:50:00 -
[180 ]
Yeah I sent my payment on 2006.02.09 21:00 (took a screenshot and everything :) ) and haven't received any shares yet either. Hope I didn't get lost in the paperwork somewhere :)
Tkotm
Posted - 2006.02.15 11:40:00 -
[181 ]
Same, but i think TornSoul has a lot of work with the website (according to this thread : http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=290269&page=2 ). he seems to update the shares left so he must have update the shareholder list, the evemail will probably come soon :).
Vernichtungsengel
Posted - 2006.02.15 16:43:00 -
[182 ]
Ive sent money to Tornsoul for 6 shares, sent 13/02/2006 @ 22:50, i know torn cant be online all the time, just wondering an eta on when i'd recieve the shares, and is it automtic, ie i dont have to click on anything to accept it?Fallen Angel...
Adilette
Posted - 2006.02.15 17:51:00 -
[183 ]
As an investor in the BMBE-project, I would like to get some information on the current status of the project (maybe I just missed it in this thread). Did the bank already start doing business? If no: Why? If yes: What is the current volume of loans? Would be nice to have a forum-thread or an "investor relations" section on the BMBE-website, which keeps the investors informed on the current status of business, loan-volume, turnover, etc.
Tkotm
Posted - 2006.02.15 18:16:00 -
[184 ]
Originally by: Adilette As an investor in the BMBE-project, I would like to get some information on the current status of the project (maybe I just missed it in this thread). Did the bank already start doing business? BIG Merchant Bank of EVE (BMBE) - Now open for business Posted - 2006.02.04 19:02:00 Post link : Linkage Originally by: Adilette If yes: What is the current volume of loans? Would be nice to have a forum-thread or an "investor relations" section on the BMBE-website, which keeps the investors informed on the current status of business, loan-volume, turnover, etc. Good idea.
Hakera
Posted - 2006.02.15 18:18:00 -
[185 ]
Good Luck Tornsoul with this, I just hope the ghost of morbor isnt back
Odet
Posted - 2006.02.15 19:46:00 -
[186 ]
cool idea _______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______ =This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.=
Cerwyn Taraman
Posted - 2006.02.15 20:10:00 -
[187 ]
When I got my shares there was no eve-mail about it, just check your wallet under the "Shares" tab to see them. They are automatic, no clicking to "accept" them or anything. CT
Ray McCormack
Posted - 2006.02.15 23:36:00 -
[188 ]
You won't get an Eve-mail when your shares are sent, due to both time contraints and the 100ISK default most people have. Not a lot, in both time and money, but enough. Just check under shares, as has been mentioned. I think they've possibly been sent out today. With regards to an update on the business status, TornSoul said previously she would not release anything until all shares had been sold, as this would give the later investors an unfair advantage (she compared it to 'insider trading'). So just hang in there. Hah, I said 'she'. | The BIG Lottery | BIG Sales | 845089 |
Hellspawn01
Posted - 2006.02.16 00:42:00 -
[189 ]
Originally by: Ray McCormack You won't get an Eve-mail when your shares are sent, due to both time contraints and the 100ISK default most people have. Not a lot, in both time and money, but enough. Just check under shares, as has been mentioned. I think they've possibly been sent out today. With regards to an update on the business status, TornSoul said previously she would not release anything until all shares had been sold, as this would give the later investors an unfair advantage (she compared it to 'insider trading'). So just hang in there. Hah, I said 'she'. I¦ve been told in here and via evemail that I get the shares in the next hours which was in the last 2 days but nothing so far. I¦m getting abit nervous here. ------ ÖShip lover /me works his Jacques h4x! All your sigs are belong to us! - Jacques'
Baun
Posted - 2006.02.16 00:58:00 -
[190 ]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Ray McCormack You won't get an Eve-mail when your shares are sent, due to both time contraints and the 100ISK default most people have. Not a lot, in both time and money, but enough. Just check under shares, as has been mentioned. I think they've possibly been sent out today. With regards to an update on the business status, TornSoul said previously she would not release anything until all shares had been sold, as this would give the later investors an unfair advantage (she compared it to 'insider trading'). So just hang in there. Hah, I said 'she'. I¦ve been told in here and via evemail that I get the shares in the next hours which was in the last 2 days but nothing so far. I¦m getting abit nervous here. Not sure whats going on, but I know that shares have been distributed ..... so, at worst its a matter of time (and its not like you are losing money because the first dividend wont be for another few weeks). The Enemy's Gate is Down
Churches
Posted - 2006.02.16 08:58:00 -
[191 ]
Some of us have sent money more than a week ago and not received shares or notification. Although I doubt any of us question the integrity of TornSoul, I personally worry that if enough time goes by, my application will get lost. Ah well, nothing to do but keep checking the shares tab
Hymnself
Posted - 2006.02.16 17:48:00 -
[192 ]
Originally by: Churches Some of us have sent money more than a week ago and not received shares or notification. Although I doubt any of us question the integrity of TornSoul, I personally worry that if enough time goes by, my application will get lost. Ah well, nothing to do but keep checking the shares tab Agreed, same position.
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.16 21:23:00 -
[193 ]
Theres been some (RL) delays with the last batch. But no worries - Everyone posting here, are accounted for (and those EVEmailing me has now recived an ingame mail as well) oh and btw : 131 left BIG Lottery [u
ThePoet
Posted - 2006.02.17 00:56:00 -
[194 ]
I have yet to receive my shares. Would like an update at least on receipt of payment, etc. :DPlease resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques
IonHammer
Posted - 2006.02.17 02:45:00 -
[195 ]
Dropped another 50 mill on you on the 11 Feb TS although the "please Sir may i have another" may have been cryptic. no rush just wanted to get more pie.
Kraust
Posted - 2006.02.17 10:50:00 -
[196 ]
could you look into my payment as i havn't recieved any shares yet and its about a week ago now i eve-mailed you as well and i recieved a mail where is said i would have them within a few hours, thats 3 days ago Thanks in advance.. Kraust
borup
Posted - 2006.02.17 11:03:00 -
[197 ]
Edited by: borup on 17/02/2006 11:07:43 well i paid 2 days ago i think it was got a screeny of it somewhere lol , no share showing yet :( and no eve mail reply hope its just me who are impatient :)
Hellspawn01
Posted - 2006.02.17 12:20:00 -
[198 ]
Paid @ 10th feb 01:38 evetime Evemail response: Quote: 2006.02.14 22:21 Shares should be going out withing the next hours Regards TornSoul Originally by: TornSoul@16/02/2006 Theres been some (RL) delays with the last batch. But no worries - Everyone posting here, are accounted for (and those EVEmailing me has now recived an ingame mail as well) oh and btw : 131 left No evemail or share yet. ------ ÖShip lover
The FLaSh
Posted - 2006.02.17 13:42:00 -
[199 ]
2006.02.13 - 06:16 made payment. Looking for an update plz.
borup
Posted - 2006.02.17 17:17:00 -
[200 ]
well got my share today :) thx
Klasanov
Posted - 2006.02.18 00:32:00 -
[201 ]
My share has also just been received. Thank you.
Darloth
Posted - 2006.02.20 05:28:00 -
[202 ]
With the backing of BIG, the BMBE is much bigger, and their website is actually more than half complete... -but-... I feel I must point out that we have technically been in business for longer *grin* I hope at least one of us succeeds, and, since we now have major-league competition, I see we'll need to really get our act togeather. I will prod my webdesigner for a webpage to equal yours post-haste. More information and advertisment will follow fairly shortly, and as a competitor (although sadly rather a lot smaller and currently less well known) I wish you the best of luck.
BugxEarl
Posted - 2006.02.20 20:59:00 -
[203 ]
I've just sent the money for 1 share. I guess I'll see how it goes and if it seems to be working, I'll try purchasing some more.
Soul Redemption
Posted - 2006.02.22 19:26:00 -
[204 ]
BIG gets so much work out of this because they're well known and known that they can be trusted with other people's funds i know tornsoul as a fair and decent leader trusted him with 500mil of my isk which turns out for 10 shares :) when i had questions and if i still do he takes the time and effort 2 answer me in private convos :) i wouldnt trust myself with my money the way i trust him lol
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.02.23 20:47:00 -
[205 ]
As you can see the topic of this thread has changed slightly. The BMBE IPO will close on sunday the 26th (2006-02-26) at midnight. This regardless if there should still be a few shares left. Currently theres 82 shares left - So theres still a chance to grab a few shares.BIG Lottery [u
Arthur Ffrub
Posted - 2006.02.28 11:46:00 -
[206 ]
Hi, As an interested investor, may I ask if the final 82 shares were sold, or if there was additional demand beyond the final 82 shares? Also a rough indication of how things are going - much business yet? Cheers, Arthur
Elange4
Posted - 2006.03.03 01:57:00 -
[207 ]
It is now Five Days, Eve time, since the IPO was closed, no? Am I missing an "Official Post"? There should be updates here by BMBE... Please TornSoul, where do we stand? --Elange4
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.03.03 19:18:00 -
[208 ]
/me coughs I've had the misfortune of beeing sick most of this week... Hence no updates etc. Expect more full news (and a new thread) sometime during the weeekend.BIG Lottery [u
Baun
Posted - 2006.03.03 19:21:00 -
[209 ]
Originally by: TornSoul /me coughs I've had the misfortune of beeing sick most of this week... Hence no updates etc. Expect more full news (and a new thread) sometime during the weeekend. Stop drinking Carlsburg and get on it ! The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul
Posted - 2006.03.05 22:48:00 -
[210 ]
Report has been posted (in the market discussion forum)(#1 - 2006.02) BMBE Shareholder Report BIG Lottery [u
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