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Tinu Moorhsum
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 10:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Also known as the pincer movement... This is a military tactic that has been employed with success since ancient times.... perhaps the most notable example of which was at the battle of Cannae in 216 BC where Hannibal entrapped and killed IIRC something on the order of 85000 Roman soldiers in one day. This is still considered, after all these years, one of the most stunning military victories of all time.
Obviously such a manoeuvre is difficult to execute in an eve online context because fleets are able to turn an manoeuvre in ways in which the Romans were not..... never the less, a modified version of this tactic is still possible in our little online universe.
In order to execute such a move, one needs to build multiple levels of "walls" in which the enemy is unable to advance but also unable to retreat.
The clearest example can be illustrated by something that I experienced myself several years ago. I was going ratting and jumped through a gate in a battleship.... on the other side, a small force was waiting for me. I held my cloak and let my ship recharge as much as I could and then burned back to the gate and jumped through...under heavy fire. at that point, a small force was waiting for me on that side too.... I waited, went back to the gate and jumped through... each time waiting as long as possible for my ship to recharge before uncloaking.
I went back and forth through that gate several times but each time more weakened than the time before and, of course, the end was inevitable. I blew up. That's a double invelopment on a small scale on eve online terms.... cut off the way ahead and cut off the way back.
This kind of thing can be done on a larger scale as well. In a more recent example, a fleet I was in was in-system and fighting a significant SC force. Unable to hurt them we decided to retreat but the exit gate was blocked on both sides by smaller fleets of conventional ships. On each side the fleet was about 2/3 of our size (of course people in the fleet were saying, "let's fight them" ) but aggressing would have opened the door for the "waiting" side to jump through and then they would have been larger and better armed than we were and we would be unable to retreat.....
This is double invelopment a la EVE online and one of the core skills expected of even the most inexperienced of FC's. In Hannibal's time it was genious. In our time it's a given that you can do this. For budding FC's I hope you can learn something from this.
T-
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Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
5
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Posted - 2011.11.01 15:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Wait..what? Is sexy time? |
Tinu Moorhsum
Aliastra Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 15:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Wait..what?
Few if any FC's in this game actually understand military tactics. Some intuitively do the right thing and some accidentally do the right thing despite their mistakes. I thought it might be interesting to post something about an actual tactic that could get people thinking and talking about it.....
T- |
Borun Tal
Space Pods Inc
2
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Posted - 2011.11.01 16:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Assuming that computer-based, space warfare troup movements and tactics can be applied to historical ground-based troup movements is the flaw in your logic. You have the added benefit of 3 dimensional movements and asset placement, warp-to-0 tactics, and a number of other factors that radically alter any tactic based solely on 2 dimensional troup movement.
Also, wut? |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
59
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Posted - 2011.11.01 16:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
We call that having a backstop.
None of your armchair general crap here plx. |
KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 17:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
The biggest problem is with warp. Would Hannibal have successfully been able to pull that off if the Romans had the ability to suddenly start running hundreds of miles an hour whilst being invulnerable to all and any damage? No sir, I don't think he could have. Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
Tinu Moorhsum
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.11.01 18:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
KFenn wrote:The biggest problem is with warp. Would Hannibal have successfully been able to pull that off if the Romans had the ability to suddenly start running hundreds of miles an hour whilst being invulnerable to all and any damage? No sir, I don't think he could have.
Of course not. That's why I was saying that the tactic needed to be adapted to this context. A classic dual envelopment the way Hannibal excuted it is, of course, impossible in EVE. but some of the elements...the manner of thinking...can still be applied.
T- |
Tinu Moorhsum
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 18:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:We call that having a backstop.
None of your armchair general crap here plx.
LOL
Just kicking around some ideas. If you have anything valuable to add to this thread then don't be afraid to speak up. As it is, you've only convinced us that you're able to be cynical but unable to actually discuss the topic at hand.
T- |
Marz Ghola
Royal Order of Security Specialists
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 19:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:We call that having a backstop.
None of your armchair general crap here plx. LOL Just kicking around some ideas. If you have anything valuable to add to this thread then don't be afraid to speak up. As it is, you've only convinced us that you're able to be cynical but unable to actually discuss the topic at hand. T-
nah, its just that every now and again, someone new to eve tries to dazzle to forumites with book learning about weighty issues.
uh, welcome to eve anyway
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cyka776
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 20:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
tactics in a new environment will evolve naturally...you generally only use as complex of tactics as it takes to defeat the enemy at hand...maybe at this point they are not as complex as they could be because of natural limitations of this environment...and the relative weakness of most targets |
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Go Petition Blizzard
215
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 21:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:This is double invelopment a la EVE online and one of the core skills expected of even the most inexperienced of FC's. In Hannibal's time it was genius. In our time it's a given that you can do this. For budding FC's I hope you can learn something from this.
That's about the extent of the application of this tactic to combat in Eve.. Gates are the ONLY natural choke points in the game
Of course, that doesn't mean your fleet is doomed. Have your scouts/fastest ships set up safe spots in the system in which you're trapped, spend 15 minutes warping between them (and making new ones) to clear aggression timers, log off in space. They'll have a minute to scan down and aggress your ships before they disappear. It's not an ideal solution, but it lets your fleet get away.
Here's where the problem lies:
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:In order to execute such a move, one needs to build multiple levels of "walls" in which the enemy is unable to advance but also unable to retreat.
Outside of camping gates, those "walls" would have to consist of massive amounts of warp disruptor bubbles. There is NOTHING else that would prevent the enemy from retreating the bulk of their forces. And if you're able to project enough force to lay down those bubbles, you've already won. |
Pinaculus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 05:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think the nature of EVE lends itself far better to naval comparisons rather than infantry. But, my pvp experience is incredibly limited. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 07:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
No, a pincer movement is, to whit, having a K346 exit to nullsec in one dead-end system A (which leads to System B), finding a R-class null-null wormhole in System A, which leads to a system a mere two jumps away (System C).
Cue getting into fight in System B. Retreat your force to system A, jump half through to System C, burn back to System A, and catch your enemy from behind.
I know, it blows the mind of nulltards when people they saw disappear out of a dead-end system jump through a gate behind them. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu
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Dirk Smacker
The Revengors
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 14:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
The FC's I've heard rambling on about military historical tactics usually blowass as FC's. |
Vin Ott
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 19:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
The only way I could see this working is if you had a roaming gang in your space, you'd make two fleets.
First off you'd have to find a two gate system, have a scout within that system, on the other side of the gate in that system, the roaming gangs exit, you'd have your first primary fleet. You'd need several point and tackling ships for this to work.
You'd have a secondary auxilary fleet a jump behind the roaming fleet, hopefully herding them towards the 2 gate system, and force them to jump through. This is where it'd get tricky.
You'd have your primary fleet waiting through the exit jump, you'd wait for the enemy fleet to warp to gate and jump your second fleet through and align.
when they jumped through the exit gate, your primary fleet would tackle the living heck out of them, when they started tackling and engaging you warp your auxilary fleet to the gate, and catch those that jump through.
This tactic requires three things that are very situational in eve. Superior numbers, needing close to double the enemy fleets numbers to effectively catch them. A two gate bottleneck system. And finally coordination of two separate fleets.
With three random variables, added into the fact you don't know if the enemy fleet will engage you haphazardly, it would be near impossible to pull of a effective pincer attack. |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
342
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 20:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vin Ott wrote:The only way I could see this working is if you had a roaming gang in your space, you'd make two fleets.
First off you'd have to find a two gate system, have a scout within that system, on the other side of the gate in that system, the roaming gangs exit, you'd have your first primary fleet. You'd need several point and tackling ships for this to work.
You'd have a secondary auxilary fleet a jump behind the roaming fleet, hopefully herding them towards the 2 gate system, and force them to jump through. This is where it'd get tricky.
You'd have your primary fleet waiting through the exit jump, you'd wait for the enemy fleet to warp to gate and jump your second fleet through and align.
when they jumped through the exit gate, your primary fleet would tackle the living heck out of them, when they started tackling and engaging you warp your auxilary fleet to the gate, and catch those that jump through.
This tactic requires three things that are very situational in eve. Superior numbers, needing close to double the enemy fleets numbers to effectively catch them. A two gate bottleneck system. And finally coordination of two separate fleets.
With three random variables, added into the fact you don't know if the enemy fleet will engage you haphazardly, it would be near impossible to pull of a effective pincer attack.
And this, my friends, is how the pincer movement is done in Eve. Was about to type up the same thing.
Bubbles up on the catching fleet, secondary fleet camps the other side with dictors to catch those burning back through, burn everything. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
153
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 20:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
True.
Many quote "Art of War" beacause they thing that makes the cool FCs. |
Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 00:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
There are plenty of cross-overs between real-world military operations and EVE.
Obviously the detailed tactics of fighting individual ships is different but as you step back from the detail concepts from the military such as , concentration of effort, fire and movement, scouting, camoflage, keeping a line of retreat open, combined arms operation, getting inside your opponents command loop, ambushes etc can all be seen on the battlefields of EVE.
-- Haze
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SidtheKid100
Miffed inc.
0
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Posted - 2011.11.03 03:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:No, a pincer movement is, to whit, having a K346 exit to nullsec in one dead-end system A (which leads to System B), finding a R-class null-null wormhole in System A, which leads to a system a mere two jumps away (System C).
Cue getting into fight in System B. Retreat your force to system A, jump half through to System C, burn back to System A, and catch your enemy from behind.
I know, it blows the mind of nulltards when people they saw disappear out of a dead-end system jump through a gate behind them.
This is what I thought of (in layman's terms) when I read "pincer movement".
So far, this is (IMHO) the best explanation of a pincer movement applied to EVE present in this thread. Kudos.
I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I prefer posting with my main. |
Desudes
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 04:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
So they had people ready in case you made it to the gate. This is somehow new?
This is easy with huge gangs from my experience as the enemy will only tackle a few before the rest of you warp off. Also, trailing your roam with cloaky alts is a good idea. Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
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ImmutableDark
We Hit Women
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 04:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
This is pretty much the most stupid irrelevant thing I've seen. The topic barely correlates with the content it's like he's trolling me with his own stupidity. |
Will Strafe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
My FCs have always used the Orcs at Helms Deep tactics. Of course, at the end Gandalf always show up in a Carrier. |
Will Strafe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 13:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
ImmutableDark wrote:This is pretty much the most stupid irrelevant thing I've seen. The topic barely correlates with the content it's like he's trolling me with his own stupidity.
Mate, I think you are a victim of your own stupidity, not someone elses. |
Mrchafe
Harmless.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 02:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Honestly i dont see why people are bad mouthing you this is a great strategy and by the use of the term "wall" Is having a few ship able to lock the person down so they can't warp and have to run to the gate to face the same thing on the other side. Not a literal wall of ships.
Props |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
238
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 02:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:True.
Many quote "Art of War" beacause they thing that makes the cool FCs.
I was re-reading Art of War yesterday with the intent of seeing what could be applied to Eve. Quite a bit of it can be (I have a paste-dump file full of quotes I'm working through) but not in any directly tactical sense. AoW was written in a time when the crossbow was high-tech weaponry. |
Nicholai Thomasovich
Celestial Horizon Corp. Flatline.
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 14:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
First, there's some confusion here as to tactics versus strategy. Tactics win battles. Strategy wins wars.
Some real-world tactics will translate to Internet Spaceships. Some won't. Nearly all real-world strategy will.
A double-envelopment has absolutely no equivalent in EVE. It requires flanks - something that EVE doesn't have. What you're describing with the gates is simply trapping an enemy - not even close to a double-envelopment.
Reading about military tactics on Wikipedia doesn't make you a subject matter expert. Unless your real-world job involves military tactics and strategy, you should probably just stick to Internet Spaceships tactics and strategy. |
Jitas Prostitute
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 00:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Also known as the pincer movement... This is a military tactic that has been employed with success since ancient times.... perhaps the most notable example of which was at the battle of Cannae in 216 BC where Hannibal entrapped and killed IIRC something on the order of 85000 Roman soldiers in one day. This is still considered, after all these years, one of the most stunning military victories of all time.
Obviously such a manoeuvre is difficult to execute in an eve online context because fleets are able to turn an manoeuvre in ways in which the Romans were not..... never the less, a modified version of this tactic is still possible in our little online universe.
In order to execute such a move, one needs to build multiple levels of "walls" in which the enemy is unable to advance but also unable to retreat.
The clearest example can be illustrated by something that I experienced myself several years ago. I was going ratting and jumped through a gate in a battleship.... on the other side, a small force was waiting for me. I held my cloak and let my ship recharge as much as I could and then burned back to the gate and jumped through...under heavy fire. at that point, a small force was waiting for me on that side too.... I waited, went back to the gate and jumped through... each time waiting as long as possible for my ship to recharge before uncloaking.
I went back and forth through that gate several times but each time more weakened than the time before and, of course, the end was inevitable. I blew up. That's a double invelopment on a small scale on eve online terms.... cut off the way ahead and cut off the way back.
This kind of thing can be done on a larger scale as well. In a more recent example, a fleet I was in was in-system and fighting a significant SC force. Unable to hurt them we decided to retreat but the exit gate was blocked on both sides by smaller fleets of conventional ships. On each side the fleet was about 2/3 of our size (of course people in the fleet were saying, "let's fight them" ) but aggressing would have opened the door for the "waiting" side to jump through and then they would have been larger and better armed than we were and we would be unable to retreat.....
This is double invelopment a la EVE online and one of the core skills expected of even the most inexperienced of FC's. In Hannibal's time it was genius. In our time it's a given that you can do this. For budding FC's I hope you can learn something from this.
T-
Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
tl;dr : op is a faGÇìggot
|
Desudes
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 00:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mrchafe wrote:Honestly i dont see why people are bad mouthing you
He's being badmouthed because its a bloody obvious tactic dressed up in professionalism. Cover the other side of the gate, duh.
That said I have escaped 30+ frigates that I aggressed on a gate in a dominix by deaggressing, jumping and warping off. Caldari militia though, should be expected I guess. Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
Valea Silpha
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 03:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
The problem here is that the OP is dressing up obvious things in armchair general words.
Since there are no flanks in eve you can't attack them. End of.
As for anything else... basically the way you win any fight in eve is to trap a smaller force and kill it with a bigger/better force. That's it. Yes, you need to cut off avenues of retreat whatever that may be, but you shouldn't call it anything cleverer than that. |
Berendas
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 03:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
I have the sudden and inexplicable urge to link this clip from Blackadder Goes Forth.
I don't even... |
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