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Mitamonehjsd
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.11.09 15:53:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jitas Prostitute wrote:Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.
Listen to the prostitute... she knows the importance of the troops morale. |
Darzia Bien
Renegade Vipers Warsmiths.
0
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Posted - 2011.11.10 19:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
Eve tactics.
1) Fleet up, 2) Argue about fits - usually one of the arguers has a small *****, 3) Fly to place, 4) Hang around for ages, 5) Pew Pew (which consists of A) Get to Optimal and orbit, and B) Fire OR - RUN AWAYYYY!).
That really is it. Anyone saying anything else is kidding themselves. The only thing that really makes a difference is fitting - and having the brains to know when to try to run to prevent a loss. That's it. Other than that, you just engage every active module, overheat when close to victory/death, and try to abuse the transversal. It is pretty simplistic really. |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
30
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Posted - 2011.11.10 20:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
I always have Sun Tzu and General Patton quotes close by when I PvP in this internet spaceship video game, eve online. |
Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate
7
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Posted - 2011.11.10 20:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Darzia Bien wrote:Eve tactics.
1) Fleet up, 2)Play EOH for an hour or two 3) Fly Around, 4) Blob some guy coming through a gate, or get blobbed by a much bigger group 5) Go play BF3
That really is it. Anyone saying anything else is kidding themselves. The only thing that really makes a difference is fitting - and having the brains to know when to try to run to prevent a loss. That's it. Other than that, you just engage every active module, overheat when close to victory/death, and try to abuse the transversal. It is pretty simplistic really.
FYP |
Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
5
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Posted - 2011.11.22 12:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.
We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.
Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.
T- |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis
319
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Posted - 2011.11.22 12:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
This reminds me of the day our FC crashed and someone in fleet incorporated William Wallace. |
Desudes
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2011.11.22 13:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.
We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.
Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.
T-
Laughing at you because everything you're saying can be filed under "**** we already know" Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
5
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Posted - 2011.11.22 13:31:00 -
[38] - Quote
Desudes wrote:Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.
We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.
Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.
T- Laughing at you because everything you're saying can be filed under "**** we already know"
LOL
Were you there? Did you recognise the dual envolopment tactic when it happened? Did you understand why your FC was giving the commands he did? Did you hear the "click" when the pincer closed? Did you experience the enemy pressing the "panic" button?
Or were you sitting in Jita asking people to send you isk so you could double it?
Personally, I think the right to critique what happens in EVE's biggest battles should be backed up by evidence of experience.
T- |
Killstealing
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
166
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Posted - 2011.11.22 13:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:The FC's I've heard rambling on about military historical tactics usually blowass as FC's. blap blap blap watching motherhubbers drop |
Kari Trace
21 SVC Corp Fidelas Constans
7
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Posted - 2011.11.22 18:44:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'm with you Tinu Moorhsum.
We executed a success pincer maneuver (though on a smaller scale than your engagement) and successfully killed 75% of the opposition while having zero losses on our side.
Others who think tactics do not matter: ....any why is the Art of Art required reading in any good business college? Because tactics are applicable in any field of action. wtfe |
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Desudes
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2011.11.23 02:57:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Desudes wrote:Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Notice no Raiden. posting on this thread. They should try to understand tactics better before they jumped balls-deep into battle with us yesterday.
We caught them in a dual envelopment last night and killed 783 of them, winning the fight in their home system even though they out numbered us by 100 and had dozens of super-caps on the field to our 11.
Some of you have laughed at this thread (and at me) but understanding tactics *does* help win fights.
T- Laughing at you because everything you're saying can be filed under "**** we already know" LOL Were you there? Did you recognise the dual envolopment tactic when it happened? Did you understand why your FC was giving the commands he did? Did you hear the "click" when the pincer closed? Did you experience the enemy pressing the "panic" button? Or were you sitting in Jita asking people to send you isk so you could double it? Personally, I think the right to critique what happens in EVE's biggest battles should be backed up by evidence of experience. T-
The only specific doingness I've heard from you is having people on both sides of the gate and splitting up a superior force to pincer in a lesser (2 weaker forces that total stronger then opposition).
Neither of those will be the deciding factor in a fight where you were outnumbered 100, with big supercap disadvantage as well.
I'm all ears for a brilliant tactical play but so far all you said is the name of a real life military maneuver without saying anything to indicate it is either A) new, or B) difficult to pull off
Actually I just reread your original post and you yourself say it is expected for this stuff to be known and you're surprised when nobody cares that you did it?
Kari Trace wrote:I'm with you Tinu Moorhsum.
We executed a success pincer maneuver (though on a smaller scale than your engagement) and successfully killed 75% of the opposition while having zero losses on our side.
Others who think tactics do not matter: Q) Why is the `Art of War` a required reading in any good business college? A) Because tactics are applicable in any field of action.
Of course tactics matter, but you don't need to read 'Art of War' to realize putting guys on both sides of a gate(or having some ready to jump) is gate camping done right o.O Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
Keltaris Cesaille
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.11.23 09:28:00 -
[42] - Quote
"I used the tips given here and accidentally the whole fleet" |
whaynethepain
11
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Posted - 2011.11.23 10:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
I have heard talk of this manoeuvre, whispered on the wind.
I think they called it a gape cant, or grate cramp.
Something like that, wasn't paying much attention. |
Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
5
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Posted - 2011.11.23 11:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Quote:
I'm all ears for a brilliant tactical play but so far all you said is the name of a real life military maneuver without saying anything to indicate it is either A) new, or B) difficult to pull off
Well... I was trying to draw some parallels to stimulate discussion but I think I'm beaten. :)
T-
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Amber Thetawaves
Mong's Marauders
6
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Posted - 2011.11.23 14:36:00 -
[45] - Quote
I am so confus |
Barlat
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
0
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Posted - 2011.11.25 15:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Quote:
I'm all ears for a brilliant tactical play but so far all you said is the name of a real life military maneuver without saying anything to indicate it is either A) new, or B) difficult to pull off
Well... I was trying to draw some parallels to stimulate discussion but I think I'm beaten. :) T-
I think that if you had asked people to describe tactics in their own words that they find useful or impressive, you would have fostered more discussion.
Speaking of that, I'd like to know what tactics people DO think are useful and/or impressive, and how they have used them or had them used against them, but that might be for another thread. |
smaster
Born-2-Kill 0ccupational Hazzard
7
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Posted - 2011.11.25 15:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
You are a real tactics genius, mr einstein.
Congratulations on discovering and explaining us this game mechanic |
Tjo Sephagen
The Roaches UNI0N.
10
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Posted - 2011.11.25 16:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Oh, are we comparing military strategy epeens? Instead, let's broaden our minds with some real armchair general foo.
You think the invasion-of-everywhere the Goons pulled off is amazing, given their low-skill noob fleet comps? (it is) It's been done. Try taking over China with a bunch of illiterate and unarmed peasants. It ain't pretty, but it can be done. For bonus points, defeat back-to-back superpowers by using these tactics in a mountainous desert (Afghanistan x2) or jungle (Vietnam x2). I bet this stuff works in space too!
Read some Julian Corbett. Naval strategy. Good stuff. The Brits thought he was a poof, but a lot of modern American naval strategy is based on Corbett. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Corbett
Follow Corbett with some Mao, who took Corbett's basic principles and applied them to guerrilla war. (Historical cause-and-effect not verified) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao
And wrap up our little tour with some John Boyd. He started small, with maneuvers, the smallest atom of tactics, but ended up applying the same principles to grand strategy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)
These wikipedia articles are crap, but at least they spell the names correctly so you can find the primary sources.
Corbett, the three-penny tour: Tactically:
- Disperse your forces when you don't want to fight. Find a safe, cloak up. Maybe log off.
- Concentrate your forces when you do want to fight. Always outnumber your enemy locally. My big blob beats your small blob.
- Never fight your enemy where they are concentrated. That's just dumb. This is more specific than 'fight on your terms.' Your terms are: pick off enemy assets until they can't/won't fight anymore and rage-quit. No epic battles. No glory. (Of course the Brits hated him. What kind of pawncy crap is that? Also, where'd The Empire go? Huh, maybe he's on to something....)
- Total strength isn't that important for these tactics, it's localized strength that matters. This means more combat-effective ships on grid, not in system or available nearby.
Strategically:
- Always have better intel than your enemy. This is more important than numbers or tactics, because this is how you control the flow of battle in a specific engagement AND how you win a war. Who's got the best network of spies and archives of everyone's forums? Yeah: the victors, that's who.
- Always be more maneuverable than your enemy, so you can take advantage of your intel. Fast and blind is still an effective tactic if your goal is to survive, but it won't win fights (see Boyd for more).
- Actual fleet composition doesn't necessarily affect victory. These tactics work well if you don't have the latest generation tech, or are fighting enemies that are more technically advanced. (Of course, you need to accept huge losses if you follow this guideline, and ditch quaint notions of honor or human rights. The Chinese, Afghans, and Vietnamese left mountains of dead on their way to victory and broke every rule you can break. The American navy, on the other hand, took a somewhat different approach: these strategic concepts also work well when you are the most advanced tech. Subs and cruise missles, FTW).
- Don't get bogged down in real estate. It forces you to concentrate defenses and lets your enemy know where you will concentrate. Own a POS? Guess what, that's where the fight will be. And guess who controls when that fight happens? Your enemy. Now, if you own 1,000 POSes, that's another story. *Hat Tip*
Boyd, in a nutshell: "He who can handle the quickest rate of change survives" Unpacked, only slightly: Better intel alone isn't enough. You need to be able to process it, adjust your tactics, make decisions, and execute faster than your enemy. He worked for the military, so he came up with an acronym for it: the OODA Loop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop
Read on and open your mind.
[And no, I'm not an expert either, but if you're going to talk military tactics FOR SPACE at least move into a modern millenium. Sun Tzu lived in a time when nobody could read, communications meant a dude on a horse, and military tech mean "woot: bronze!" Hannibal, who lived only slightly later, lived during the golden age of supercaps: elephants. Seriously?] |
smaster
Born-2-Kill 0ccupational Hazzard
7
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Posted - 2011.11.26 13:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tjo Sephagen wrote: Corbett, the three-penny tour:
How can u think, puling vietnamese war tactic makes up for a fun game.
Your tipps about "always have more than the others or cloak up" is just plain stupid and some of the worst bullshit i have ever read on a forum
Get a life |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
15
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Posted - 2011.11.26 14:52:00 -
[50] - Quote
smaster wrote:Tjo Sephagen wrote: Corbett, the three-penny tour:
How can u think, puling vietnamese war tactic makes up for a fun game. Your tipps about "always have more than the others or cloak up" is just plain stupid and some of the worst bullshit i have ever read on a forum Get a life
I'm probably getting trolled, but anyways .. .
You are making the istake a of confusin "fun" with good tactics/strategy. "Fun" is a challenge, when you have a decent chance of losing. Sports are "fun" because they are fair and generally close to evenly matched. Good tactics and strategy take out the "fun" by helping to ensure that you are rarely in a position to lose. I don't remember who said it, but a good line to think about is: "The warrior fights the battle in order to win the war. The strategist wins the war, then fights the battle."
In other words, you should have things planned out so that once the battle comes, there is little doubt of the outcome. This is what people are talking about with only concentrating your forces when you want to, not the other guy. |
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Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
6
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Posted - 2011.11.27 16:04:00 -
[51] - Quote
Barlat wrote:
I think that if you had asked people to describe tactics in their own words that they find useful or impressive, you would have fostered more discussion.
Speaking of that, I'd like to know what tactics people DO think are useful and/or impressive, and how they have used them or had them used against them, but that might be for another thread.
Agreed. I failed to recognise that some people see posting on the forums as yet another form of PVP. The basic thing I was trying to accomplish here got derailed by my poor initial delivery and subsequent barrage of smack. It's ok, I learn quickly but I'm not going to play the smack game.
To answer your question, the one (obvious) thing that works wonders in EVE is tactical surprise. You see it all over the place. Most people call it "baiting".
Baiting and hot-dropping is probably the most common tactic you can employ to get easy wins. One example of this would be to use a "bait fleet" that's big enough to get a response but to split your fleet up with some on bait patrol and the rest formed up on some kind of bridge where they aren't being scouted. Black ops ships are good for this but you see a lot of it being done from titan bridges too because only cloaky ships can go through a black ops bridge. The basic idea, is get a fight, make sure the enemy engages your bait fleet, throw up a cyno and clobber them when your fleet suddenly swells in size. Some alliances use this tactic so often that you can be reasonably sure that just about any roaming fleet of theirs you encounter is a bait fleet. The trick then is to have good intel about what they have formed up so when they drop you, you can counter-drop and surprise them back :)
Another variation of this, of course is to have the main part of your fleet wait outside a gate or on the other side of a jump bridge until the fight starts.
The problem with most traditional tactics in EVE is that there is no real terrain. Gates are the only choke points where you can really force a fleet to choose between "go forward" or "go back" (or logoffski, which, fortunately they're fixing)
T- |
Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
0
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Posted - 2011.12.01 01:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
Dead on the money Tjo...there are a lot of ignoramuses posting here that simply don't have a clue about warfare and think that EVE combat is a special case with no relation to previous work on strategy and tactics.
-- Haze |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
158
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Posted - 2011.12.01 01:10:00 -
[53] - Quote
Hazel Starr wrote:Dead on the money Tjo...there are a lot of ignoramuses posting here that simply don't have a clue about warfare and think that EVE combat is a special case with no relation to previous work on strategy and tactics.
-- Haze
Hazel Starr. You do know that you have a pornographic starlet's name? I live, I post, I slay. I am content. Alpha Flight --á an open-source initiative for newbies looking for PVP. Join channel ''Alpha Flight'' in game https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40104 |
Marz Ghola
Royal Order of Security Specialists
3
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Posted - 2011.12.01 23:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
Hazel Starr wrote:Dead on the money Tjo...there are a lot of ignoramuses posting here that simply don't have a clue about warfare and think that EVE combat is a special case with no relation to previous work on strategy and tactics.
-- Haze
yeah, get back to serious bizness, you ignoramussses!
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Hazel Starr
Krypteia Brotherhood
0
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Posted - 2011.12.02 02:43:00 -
[55] - Quote
My mother had an odd sense of humour...It's a cross I have to bear!
Why do you think I became a pirate and forum warrior..?
-- Haze
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Mugen Dunedain
The Jazz Lounge
0
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Posted - 2011.12.02 07:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tjo, I agree completely with the spirit of your post, but I must disagree with the post itself. Knowing what you know, I'd have kept my mouth shut lest you have to fight someone who read your post and gained new tactical insights.
Top notch regardless. |
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