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Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
28
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Posted - 2013.07.30 20:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think this could be cool to have in the EVE fleet window. To see who's doing the best overall/most efficient damage and who's the quickest logi. Killmails just isnt the same. More info on damage meters: http://www.wowwiki.com/Damage_meter |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
248
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Posted - 2013.07.30 20:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cpt Tirel wrote:I think this could be cool to have in the EVE fleet window. To see who's doing the best overall/most efficient damage and who's the quickest logi. Killmails just isnt the same. More info on damage meters: http://www.wowwiki.com/Damage_meter Killmails are sufficient. Adding logis to lossmails would be much appreciated. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
28
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Posted - 2013.07.30 20:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
A proper damage meter allow you to see more than just damage. In many other MMO's it is a must have for any decently competetive player. It is also a very good tool to reveal slackers and bad players. Any noob can get good damage on a killmail, only a good player can be "the best" overall damage in a small gang or fleet. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
28
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Posted - 2013.07.30 20:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
When i say overall damage, i mean total damage done after several kills/fights, of course. |
Kalanaja
Dog Nation United The East India Co.
48
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Posted - 2013.07.30 21:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Over a year in the game and OP still doesn't understand how EvE works. So you would have your corp and alliance penalize tacklers, neutralizers, jammers and logi pilots by having a cheesy pointless damage meter. There is a reason that should stay in blizzard's hunk of junk. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 21:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kalanaja wrote:Over a year in the game and OP still doesn't understand how EvE works.
Thank you for sharing your grand wisdom and understanding of the universe. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 21:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just because i linked to a wow wiki site does not mean damage meters are something that blizzard invented much less WoW. |
Kalanaja
Dog Nation United The East India Co.
48
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Posted - 2013.07.30 21:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
The one poster above was right. Damage is already shown on killmails. It's not CCP's job to track and manage that data. They did their part when they started making API tracking possible. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
315
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Posted - 2013.07.30 21:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
The upside, as I see it - is it solves, once and for all "paper DPS" arguments.
I get sick of assuring people my cruises hit just fine and the rats dont pop all by themselves. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 21:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
You should stop saying killmails are good enough because it only shows how little you understand of the significance a damage meter can have in comparison. The people who usualy kept whining ingame in WoW when people posted damage logs in raid chat were usualy the same people who didnt know how to play properly and did not like it because it revealed their incompetence. And im not talking about panda WoW here i mean classic/TBC.
Can you please tell me the problem of having a damage meter in EVE? |
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Kalanaja
Dog Nation United The East India Co.
48
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Posted - 2013.07.30 22:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cpt Tirel wrote:You should stop saying killmails are good enough because it only shows how little you understand of the significance a damage meter can have in comparison. The people who usualy kept whining ingame in WoW when people posted damage logs in raid chat were usualy the same people who didnt know how to play properly and did not like it because it revealed their incompetence. And im not talking about panda WoW here i mean classic/TBC.
Can you please tell me the problem of having a damage meter in EVE?
How would you determine whether or not the player was bad or lazy based on damage? Maybe they get crappy hits due to tracking, or the target is well fit with high resists. Maybe they get ECMed and get hardly any locks. What about tackle pilots, or pilots fit for neuting warfare. They won't do much damge period since that is not part of their objective. Then you have logi pilots and jammer pilots who really do no damage because it is not part of their task. Add in scout pilots whose whole purpose is intel gathering ahead of a fleet then by adding it in and saying if you aren't doing such and such damage then you are crap. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
315
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Posted - 2013.07.30 22:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Actually your probem is mentioning WOW in a serious post.
Honestly, you want to avoid that. It's a miracle the reception has been this....nice. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 22:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quote:How would you determine whether or not the player was bad or lazy based on damage? Maybe they get crappy hits due to tracking, or the target is well fit with high resists. Maybe they get ECMed and get hardly any locks. What about tackle pilots, or pilots fit for neuting warfare. They won't do much damge period since that is not part of their objective. Then you have logi pilots and jammer pilots who really do no damage because it is not part of their task. Add in scout pilots whose whole purpose is intel gathering ahead of a fleet then by adding it in and saying if you aren't doing such and such damage then you are crap.
If one player is doing considerable more damage than another with the same ship over and over and fit and also have the same skills then it means the other is slacking. That is what i mean. And if you dont think thats enough reason i think PvE players like incursion runners would very much apriciate a damage meter at least. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 22:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Actually your probem is mentioning WOW in a serious post.
Honestly, you want to avoid that. It's a miracle the reception has been this....nice.
I know, and i would have liked to avoid it but WoW is about the only game most people can relate to when it comes do damage meters. |
Shizu Yukino
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.07.30 22:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Damage meters are bad, and you should feel bad. |
Kalanaja
Dog Nation United The East India Co.
48
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Posted - 2013.07.30 22:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cpt Tirel wrote:Quote:How would you determine whether or not the player was bad or lazy based on damage? Maybe they get crappy hits due to tracking, or the target is well fit with high resists. Maybe they get ECMed and get hardly any locks. What about tackle pilots, or pilots fit for neuting warfare. They won't do much damge period since that is not part of their objective. Then you have logi pilots and jammer pilots who really do no damage because it is not part of their task. Add in scout pilots whose whole purpose is intel gathering ahead of a fleet then by adding it in and saying if you aren't doing such and such damage then you are crap. If one player is doing considerable more damage than another with the same ship over and over and fit and also have the same skills then it means the other is slacking. That is what i mean. And if you dont think thats enough reason i think PvE players like incursion runners would very much apriciate a damage meter at least.
Then it would be a matter of piloting. Either because of range or other variables. If both ships are piloting one behind the other then damages are going to be similiar. So someone using the same ship, fit and all the same skills hitting the same target will realistically only ever vary due to piloting. |
Shizu Yukino
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.07.30 22:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kalanaja wrote:Cpt Tirel wrote:Quote:How would you determine whether or not the player was bad or lazy based on damage? Maybe they get crappy hits due to tracking, or the target is well fit with high resists. Maybe they get ECMed and get hardly any locks. What about tackle pilots, or pilots fit for neuting warfare. They won't do much damge period since that is not part of their objective. Then you have logi pilots and jammer pilots who really do no damage because it is not part of their task. Add in scout pilots whose whole purpose is intel gathering ahead of a fleet then by adding it in and saying if you aren't doing such and such damage then you are crap. If one player is doing considerable more damage than another with the same ship over and over and fit and also have the same skills then it means the other is slacking. That is what i mean. And if you dont think thats enough reason i think PvE players like incursion runners would very much apriciate a damage meter at least. Then it would be a matter of piloting. Either because of range or other variables. If both ships are piloting one behind the other then damages are going to be similiar. So someone using the same ship, fit and all the same skills hitting the same target will realistically only ever vary due to piloting.
That's exactly Tirel's point though. With the help of a damage meter in these cases, you could identify the bad pilot. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 22:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yes, anyway. I should have added this on the top but the incursion community would apriciate a damage meter. And i think it would be useful for PvP aswell, though not so much, yes. |
Kalanaja
Dog Nation United The East India Co.
48
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Posted - 2013.07.30 23:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Shizu Yukino wrote:Kalanaja wrote:Cpt Tirel wrote:Quote:How would you determine whether or not the player was bad or lazy based on damage? Maybe they get crappy hits due to tracking, or the target is well fit with high resists. Maybe they get ECMed and get hardly any locks. What about tackle pilots, or pilots fit for neuting warfare. They won't do much damge period since that is not part of their objective. Then you have logi pilots and jammer pilots who really do no damage because it is not part of their task. Add in scout pilots whose whole purpose is intel gathering ahead of a fleet then by adding it in and saying if you aren't doing such and such damage then you are crap. If one player is doing considerable more damage than another with the same ship over and over and fit and also have the same skills then it means the other is slacking. That is what i mean. And if you dont think thats enough reason i think PvE players like incursion runners would very much apriciate a damage meter at least. Then it would be a matter of piloting. Either because of range or other variables. If both ships are piloting one behind the other then damages are going to be similiar. So someone using the same ship, fit and all the same skills hitting the same target will realistically only ever vary due to piloting. That's exactly Tirel's point though. With the help of a damage meter in these cases, you could identify the bad pilot.
Even then not really because there is no way to track why they were piloting that way. They may have been getting hammered from another target and needed to change velocities and angles to mess up their tracking. Or trying to dragging other targets town to have them go after them. Or they saw that hot drop cyno pop up and may be trying to get out. They could also be an awoxxer and fixing to run while you die. Again, they could also be tracking disrupted, sensor damped or completely jammed out. A damage meter covers nothing really. It's the equivalent of an ingame EFT damage calculator. If someone's who worrying thing is to watch a damage meter the whole time just to say they did lots of damage then they're most certainly guaranteed to die since they are not situationally aware. |
Kalanaja
Dog Nation United The East India Co.
48
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Posted - 2013.07.30 23:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cpt Tirel wrote:Yes, anyway. I should have added this on the top but the incursion community would apriciate a damage meter. And i think it would be useful for PvP aswell, though not so much, yes.
By incursion community you mean snot bag jokes from wow that sit around in shiny ships thinking they're in a wow raid and the greatest things since sliced bread. |
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Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 23:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Then the pilot is going to have bad damage over time if he keeps piloting like a noob. That would be more easily identifiable with an in game damage meter showing his number of grazing hits. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 23:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kalanaja wrote:Cpt Tirel wrote:Yes, anyway. I should have added this on the top but the incursion community would apriciate a damage meter. And i think it would be useful for PvP aswell, though not so much, yes. By incursion community you mean snot bag jokes from wow that sit around in shiny ships thinking they're in a wow raid and the greatest things since sliced bread.
Can you complain about incursion runners in another thread pls ty. |
Nitrah
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
22
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Posted - 2013.07.30 23:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cpt Tirel wrote: If one player is doing considerable more damage than another with the same ship over and over and fit and also have the same skills then it means the other is slacking.
Or the "slacker" was ECMd out. Or the "slacker" had a TD on them. Or the target was specifically piloting to keep his transversal up against the "slacker". Or the "slacker" was too far out of range when the FC switched targets. Or the 'slacker' got primaried and tried to mitigate incoming dps by pulling range or increasing transversal.
Fleet fights are not boss fights, and this idea is merely a way to cause people who don't understand game mechanics to penalize people needlessly.
You want to critique your fleetmates? Require several people to fraps the fights. |
Cpt Tirel
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.07.30 23:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
I said over and over, that means over time, days, weeks maybe. This guy you speak of must have some really bad luck, getting jammed and TD'd every single fight he's in. |
Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
14
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Posted - 2013.07.31 05:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cpt Tirel wrote:I said over and over, that means over time, days, weeks maybe. This guy you speak of must have some really bad luck, getting jammed and TD'd every single fight he's in.
What about a pilot who flys different ships. You could be reshipping from high DPS to logi, to tackle over a period of a roam, a few days , weeks ect. Your DPS maybe be way lower than some one who flew a dps ship all the time. At least you can see what ship someone was flying on a KM and determine why there DPS was low.
I don't play WOW but my understanding is that certain Char types perform different rolls so you can't just become something else without changing chars which would then add to a separate meter.
So in the end of the day if the meter tracked over a long period then it would not work unless it had some sort of convoluted system to track what ship you where in (very complex to display that and not very useful) and if the period was to short then it would not allow for situational differences (ECM ect) . |
Hesod Adee
Turalyon Plus
68
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Posted - 2013.07.31 05:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Shizu Yukino wrote:That's exactly Tirel's point though. With the help of a damage meter in these cases, you could identify the bad pilot. Why wouldn't the bad pilot also be identifiable though killmails ? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
317
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 07:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:Shizu Yukino wrote:That's exactly Tirel's point though. With the help of a damage meter in these cases, you could identify the bad pilot. Why wouldn't the bad pilot also be identifiable though killmails ?
You'll find them in the victim section |
Hesod Adee
Turalyon Plus
68
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Posted - 2013.07.31 07:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Hesod Adee wrote:Shizu Yukino wrote:That's exactly Tirel's point though. With the help of a damage meter in these cases, you could identify the bad pilot. Why wouldn't the bad pilot also be identifiable though killmails ? You'll find them in the victim section Not just that. It shouldn't be too hard to write a script to go through all kills someone had and calculate the average damage they have on kms. Or to get a different average for each hull, or only look at a specific time period.
What could a damage meter show that those averages won't ?
This line of thought started out as an argument against a damage meter. But I now realize that I'm saying that we already have one. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
551
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Posted - 2013.07.31 11:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
This is possibly the most pointless change request I've read in a while.
As expressed by Kalanaja, the dps output of an individual pilot is pretty much immaterial in an engagement in pvp due to all the reasons she's already explained. Killmails give you the overall dps of each attacking pilot and what ship they're in. If you want to analyse a fight to see which pilots have performed badly to either educate them or (if you're a ****) berate them you already have the tools at your disposal to do this.
Trying to suggest that a damage meter would be useful during an engagement is just plain stupid. It might be in WOW but it really wouldn't be in EVE. All it would do is create a point of argument at the point where people should be concentrating on what the FC is saying.
If used to aggregate values over time you might get some interesting trend information but then you can already do this with the information supplied.
This would be a waste of dev time.
-1 for pointless change. |
Ehcks Argentus
EVE University Ivy League
18
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Posted - 2013.07.31 11:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
You already see total damage done and percent damage by each participant. Multiply the total damage by your %damage and you see how much you did. Yay.
The frigate with 0% and a scram was probably the most important. |
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