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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1620
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Posted - 2013.07.18 10:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Good morning space adventurers!
IF YOU WANT TO CRITICIZE THIS PROPOSAL PLEASE READ THE EXPLANATION BELOW FIRST <3
Okay so I'm going to give you the numbers first, then do some text walling below to try and explain why we arrived where we did.
Medium Rails (all sizes and metas): +15% Rate of Fire +15% Damage Multiplier -15% Tracking Speed
Medium Beams: +25% Damage Multiplier -10% Tracking Speed
Medium Artillery: +10% Rate of Fire -5% Tracking
So the basic idea is that we're increasing damage by quite a lot for all medium long range turrets, while also lowering their tracking a little bit.
From a high level, the goal here is to make long range weapons valuable enough that people are able to use them for both PVP and PVE without being laughed at. This is hard to accomplish without stepping heavily on the toes of either large weapons or short-range medium weapons. We felt that a large damage increase was absolutely necessary for there to be any chance of seeing increased use, but the higher damage goes the more pressure gets put on other weapon systems. By making tracking speed a bit worse we preserve a lot of the advantage that medium short-range guns bring, while also making medium long-range guns a great choice verse large guns in many situations.
To understand why that last part is true, its VERY important that you understand how tracking works in EVE. I want to use an example here to help illustrate:
The tracking speed on a standard Neutron Blaster Talos with Null loaded is .0794 The tracking speed on a new 250mm Railgun Deimos with Antimatter loaded will be .0304
It looks like the Talos tracks 3x as well as the Deimos. In reality, because of the role Signature Resolution plays, the Deimos will actually track moving targets about 19% better than the Null Talos. If you want to make this kind of comparison for other ships and situations, divide tracking speed by the signature resolution of the gun and compare the resulting numbers. If you want to see an awesome in-depth explanation for tracking, I recommend reading THIS BLOG by Azual Skoll.
One of the discussions we had with the CSM on this topic (there were a lot) revolved around a situation where you get to choose which ship to bring to a fight where you will be shooting at Talwars. Do you want a new medium long-range gun ship, or an Attack BC with large short-range guns. So I made a DPS graph here showing three fits: a 200mm Rail Thorax, a 250mm Rail Deimos, and a Neutron Talos, all of which have 2 tracking enhancers fit. The situation shown would be if the Talwar has MWD on and is moving at full speed at an angle of 60 degrees (hopefully fairly average, though it will vary a lot). You can see what that looks like here: DAMAGE GRAPH
There are of course a lot of other reasons to bring medium long-range ships over large like price, speed, resilience, and the option to shoot to much longer ranges. Overall we are still a tad worried about power creep here, but hopefully this will put medium guns in a healthy place in relation to their competition.
As always, looking forward to feedback. CCP Rise
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Rabbit P
Die Valkyrja Pangu Coalition
5
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Posted - 2013.07.18 10:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
first
we are waiting it so long |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
789
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Posted - 2013.07.18 10:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
brb refitting ferox |
Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
As an Amarr specialized player, these changes look good to me. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1270
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: The tracking speed on a standard Neutron Blaster Talos with Null loaded is .0794 The tracking speed on a new 250mm Railgun Deimos with Antimatter loaded will be .0304
It looks like the Talos tracks 3x as well as the Deimos. In reality, because of the role Signature Resolution plays, the Deimos will actually track moving targets about 19% better than the Null Talos.
As always, looking forward to feedback. CCP Rise
I don't thing there is such a thing as a "standard" ship fit, that would imply you are balancing around a specific fit and then using anything but that means you can't compete.
I also believe comparing 2 different charge types is a bad idea, null charges have a 25% tracking penalty. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Tremer Latan
Airkio Mining Corp Gentlemen's Agreement
0
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
I was looking out for this since your post on Twitter ... finally I can fit the Gallente ships for longrange without thinking, that i should have used minmatarr instead. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
285
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
mmkay so why are all the comparisons ignoring T2 ammo? ..... who uses antimatter on rails? .. anyone?
T2 ammo needs a buff on long range guns .. -75% range makes it unusable... Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
790
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:mmkay so why are all the comparisons ignoring T2 ammo? ..... who uses antimatter on rails? .. anyone?
T2 ammo needs a buff on long range guns .. -75% range makes it unusable...
Antimatter has great range. Javelin could use a bit more range, but i think other than that its quite balanced. Antimatter should be better in some circumstances so how it is now is decent. Javelin does cripple your range just a little too much IMO. Spike is great and should stay as is. With the damage boost it will get it will be super useful. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
274
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's funny how short range guns are basically entirely about their T2 long range ammo. I thought T2 was supposed to be niche, specialist ammo, not what you use all the time. Can you imagine trying to use a blaster ship without carrying a large pile of null and having it loaded all the time by default, because it's plain better in 99% of situations? Anyway, you should probably be nerfing the obviously overpowered things (ABCs, scorch, null and barrage). It's insanity that you're balancing stuff around a shield null talos of all things, one of the most broken things around. I'd probably go with a -75% tracking penalty on null scorch barrage, instead of 25%, and/or just reducing the range.
It'd be nice if you could look at low-tier long range guns, because they're much worse than low-tier short range guns. It'd also be nice if you could do something with range bonuses. Amarr optimal bonuses are great, minmatar falloff bonuses for ACs are great, but artilleries and hybrid guns are all half optimal half falloff, meaning they only get half the benefit of a range bonus that lasers or ACs do.
If you want to move the game away from being entirely about t2 ammo (no diversity, bad for new players, etc.), you could slow the damage reduction on t1 ammos as you go up the ranges, and make it so projectile and hybrid ammos have bonuses/penalties to both optimal and falloff (some number jiggling would be required), so you could load longer range t1/faction ammos into falloff/s weapons
Edit: You should probably stop testing gallente ships with shield tanks on them. It's supposed to be possible to armour tank gallente, it's supposed to be what they do best. If I load up EFT and find that it's impossible to rail fit anything unless you load LSEs instead of 800mm plates, I'll be quite disappointed. |
David Kir
Tailender
48
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bringing back the midrange AHAC Zealot? AAAAAAWWWW YIIIIISSSSS!!!
PS: nice to see Azual getting some credit, that article of his is golden. Now should he write some more of those damn articles, that'd be even better. |
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Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair
34
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
OP AS **** |
Luscius Uta
Unleashed' Fury Forsaken Federation
45
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
It's a general consensus that Medium Rails need a buff, but giving them a 15% bonus to both RoF and damage seems a bit drastic to me - they don't suck that bad (and Rail Proteus or Astarte still works very well in killing rats that are weak to Kin/Thermal). But, since both Rails and Beams need capacitor to fire and are limited in terms of what damage they can inflict, they need to have at least 10% more DPS than Artillery turrets (possibly also better range) to make up for their lack of flexibility.
On the other hand, Artillery turrets of all sizes are terribly hard to fit (as most of us know that, even with perfect skills, you can't fit a full rack of 1400mm's on a Nado without ACR rig). I would therefore reduce the powergrid needs of all Artillery turrets (expect XL) by 10% but also lower their alpha by similar amount. |
Zappity
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
188
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Happy. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1861
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Any word on if Heavy Missiles will be updated again? Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
Morel Nova
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
17
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Swap the arty RoF buff to a 20% damage bonus instead. Artillery is for alpha strikes, this risks making all weapon systems a bit too similar which is boring. |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
156
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP RISE.
OHHHH yes. Thankyou. Thankyou thankyou thankyou.
Ohh you are made of WIN and everywhere you go it WINS. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1635
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Morel Nova wrote:Swap the arty RoF buff to a 20% damage bonus instead. Artillery is for alpha strikes, this risks making all weapon systems a bit too similar which is boring.
Its very intentional that it gets ROF and not damage. Alpha on Arty is already plenty high, making arty Hurricanes and Muninns both viable before the changes. We wanted to make sure the dps kept up with rails and beams somewhat without overbuffing alpha which is working fine currently. |
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Adwokat Diabla
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
2
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Posted - 2013.07.18 11:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
at first I was super excited about this and was gonna buy some eagles. but then i saw the tracking nerf to rails and now...
I know you think that it tracking better then a talos with null is cool, but in reality its kinda ****** vs frigs unless they're ******** and coming at you in a staight line. m. rails already track the 2nd worst of medium guns, and only just slightly better then arties, so why even bother when you can just use the other, better tracking guns. Please, just remove the tracking nerf on medium rals, and give them the buff that they so desperately need. Literally nobody uses medium rails right now and if it turns out that its over-powered then you can always nerf it, but I really do not think that this tracking nerf is going to help. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
285
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morel Nova wrote:Swap the arty RoF buff to a 20% damage bonus instead. Artillery is for alpha strikes, this risks making all weapon systems a bit too similar which is boring. Its very intentional that it gets ROF and not damage. Alpha on Arty is already plenty high, making arty Hurricanes and Muninns both viable before the changes. We wanted to make sure the dps kept up with rails and beams somewhat without overbuffing alpha which is working fine currently.
Good i thought that was intentional as Arty does have excessive alpha right now Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
285
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Rise is there any intention to do a ammo review ? -50% and -75% penalties are too high for long range guns Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Adwokat Diabla
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
2
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Morel Nova wrote:Swap the arty RoF buff to a 20% damage bonus instead. Artillery is for alpha strikes, this risks making all weapon systems a bit too similar which is boring. Its very intentional that it gets ROF and not damage. Alpha on Arty is already plenty high, making arty Hurricanes and Muninns both viable before the changes. We wanted to make sure the dps kept up with rails and beams somewhat without overbuffing alpha which is working fine currently.
so why would I want to fly anything other then arty stuff. they will probably track better then rails or at least have very simliar, have similar dps, will always kill the target before reps land? ****, count me in on this because that just owns in the unbalanced whoopass kinda way |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
495
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
A needed change. But what about heavy missiles now ? G££ <= Me |
Alsyth
38
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
- heavy missile are so bad you should up them at the same time (same range, same category) - lowering the tracking is a bad idea imo, that's THE thing that makes them more interesting than, say, pulse Oracle. - RoF for Artillery is not good, give them better alpha or all will be too similar. And btw their damage is already crap, giving them a smaller buff than Lasers is really mean |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
274
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise is there any intention to do a ammo review ? -50% and -75% penalties are too high for long range guns
Javelin and Gleam are exactly what a T2 ammo should be. It's all the others that should be changed. |
Dzajic
128
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
You might have forgotten that tin detail of Talos having a wee bit more damage than rail Deimos. |
Janeos
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
47
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Morel Nova wrote:Swap the arty RoF buff to a 20% damage bonus instead. Artillery is for alpha strikes, this risks making all weapon systems a bit too similar which is boring. Its very intentional that it gets ROF and not damage. Alpha on Arty is already plenty high, making arty Hurricanes and Muninns both viable before the changes. We wanted to make sure the dps kept up with rails and beams somewhat without overbuffing alpha which is working fine currently. so why would I want to fly anything other then arty stuff. they will probably track better then rails or at least have very simliar, have similar dps, will always kill the target before reps land? ****, count me in on this because that just owns in the unbalanced whoopass kinda way Your love for eating both cap and ammo will keep you fitting long range guns with substandard alpha. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
2392
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rail damage & ROF bonus looks good, but 15% tracking penalty looks pretty heavy handed.
You've already nerfed Tracking Enhancers, so getting that 15% back takes at least 2 TEII. And how bad is Spike ammo going to be now?
The last hybrid balance pass boosted tracking IIRC. Now you're taking it away again?
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black
105
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
+1 I have lots of ideas. -áThey're not always well thought through, but they are always well intentioned. -á |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10862
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:mmkay so why are all the comparisons ignoring T2 ammo? ..... who uses antimatter on rails? .. anyone?
T2 ammo needs a buff on long range guns .. -75% range makes it unusable...
Antimatter is used as the de facto ammo for rails.
1 Kings 12:11
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scimichar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
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Posted - 2013.07.18 12:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
The damage/tracking bonus on the rails is nice, but what about fitting? To fit a MWD thorax with a scram you need two ACR and one POU rigs. For an eagle (even with your hac changes), you still need a ACR rig. Shouldn't need to use fitting rigs for standard fits. |
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