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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1886
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Posted - 2013.05.03 10:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello folks,
We have long term plans to improve Certificates as a whole and we would appreciate your input regarding their public visibility. At the moment it is possible to set individual certificates as public by going into your character sheet, under the Certificates > Permissions Tab.
Initial research has shown a low usage of characters set Certificates as public, we thus are considering the following options:
- Remove the ability to set Certificates as public
- Offer the ability to drag and drop individual Certificates, or a whole Certificate profile from a character into any kind of text input field (conversation channels or EVE mails for instance GÇô this already is possible for individual Certificates from the planner)
- Offer means to compare Certificates with a particular individual that give you permission with your own
- For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but donGÇÖt mention to which fields they apply GÇô for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills.
Would you feel comfortable with any of these options? Which ones do you like? Options outside that list may be considered as well, if expressed in a constructive manner.
As another topic for you guys to voice your feedback to, what information would you feel worried about if it was displayed as public by default and why?
In all cases, please note all of this remains high-level conceptual work that is in no way set in stone or even planned for the immediate future, which is why we are asking for your input in the first place.
Many thanks for your time.
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Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
267
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Not sure if anything on that list Would make them more used by anyone.
The main problem with certificates is that level of representesion of skills. Its low compared to what people (for example - recruiters) want to know about candidates.
They are also weak in terms of goal for skilling. No one is telling You "go skill for core defense elite" - thy tell You to train shield / armor skills.
If at any point in time there was MAJOR revision of certificate structure then yes, proposed changes (especially drag&drop of certificates) would be used to:
- verify if character have required level of skills - bragging rights - set skill plans based on certificates instead of separate skills Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
71
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think the bigger problem is finding a place for certificates where they have some relevance to both the player that is awarded them and a reason for someone else to want to see them.
I cannot think of a time where i have seen (or even heard) where one player has asked "do you have certificate xxx? you cannot fly in ship / fleet / corp without it" there is either a situation where you are asked can you fly ship type x and there is a level of trust you know how to fit the ship effectivly, or especially with the rise of specific doctrines and being able to link fits and immediately see if you are able to fit all of the modules etc. it is usually far quicker just to link and fit and say "can you fly this?". Adding to this, there are some certificates that are so broad in the skills the require that they do not necessarily accurately represent your ability to fulfill the role it is for dependent on the current ship doctrine meta.
I guess i understand the reasoning behind them being in game, and I see how they can be a useful guideline to new players, but i just thin generally there is simpler or more commonly used methods to ask the same questions the certs answer. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
501
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think the first hurdle for certificates is that very few people understand what they are for.
- Hints about what you should train? - Easy way for experienced players to tell younger players what they should train? - Bragging (and handing free intel)?
It appears that there was some ideas behind them, but this idea wasn't very well communicated when they showed up and it's not very well communicated new players.
Made worse by the fact that many of them contain stuff that it's not very clear why the player should spend time training a certain skill which doesn't appear to have any use at all, except for getting a certificate.
I had a wise CEO back in the days that managed to use several of the core ones to teach us n00bs about what we should train, but it very much appear to be limited to wise CEOs dealing with n00bs ;)
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP (aka Judge) Peligro: I will find your main.
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MuraSaki Siki
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
12
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
1. I agree the removal of the publicity of Certificates. 2. And I dun think showing the number of the Certificates you've get is a good idea
hide the information of the character is a way to confuse the enemy, or at least dun let him know my ability. As you know more, you will be better chance to win. The skills info of character should not be public
Also, fixing the certificates content is much more important. Tag some useful certificates to fly the ship well. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
72
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
The problem with certificates is, that it's far too easy and common to bully people into disclosing their full API.
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Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
65
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Don't see any good coming out of public certificates, as they won't be looked up unless for intel in pvp.
Inaccurate information about certificates also doesn't seem to be of much use afterall, the current option to display certificates at least allows for a brief skillcheck, but even that is more handled by eveboard (for recruiting purposes) or evemon (regarding setting up plans)
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
221
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Certificates up to today Only made damage to the game. I see lots of new players focused in the certificates instead of skilling to fly ships for specific roles and they get misleaded!
Today there is a LOT more peopel that think they do not have enough skilsl to PVP because they do not have elite on the role they Think the certificates describe. I have 100 MILLION sp and i have only a very few elite certificates and MOST are on basics. That is completely misleading and is making HUGE damage to new players experience. I had several friedns thatI introduced to the game complain that they were unable to do this or that because the certificates said they were weak on that.
Not to forget hat most new players think certificates are somethign you go adquire somewhere and keep asking how do I buy a certificate for X or Y so I can fly that ship...
It was a HORRIBLe idea and need to be totally reworked. |
0wl
Pocket Pirates
31
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
- Remove Them. - Let's be honest after a while into the game, who really cares? I have an '05 Character and I've never claimed any of them. Seams like a waste of time and resources to me. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
133
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Posted - 2013.05.03 11:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
well i have been in corps were the noobs ask for help with skillplans etc. so certificates were of some use in guiding them we would often say core competency was an important set of skills to train as a solid base to move into better ships etc.
Main point for me though is they need some work to clarify what the certificates are and why they are useful... they are a bit unclear and not the easiest to find and interact with. and since its mainly new players to the game these are actually useful as when you have played the game for a while you know what skills you need for what ship... Its more of a information tool for noobs and anything to improve new player experience is worth doing is it not?
Also on public thing yes as an intel tool the certificates would be useful to see what character can fly what so i would suggest it needs to be more of a corp view so its easy to help new guys to prioritize and understand things. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
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To mare
Advanced Technology
186
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
just remove them, they are one of the most useless things in the game and like someone already said they are misleading. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
260
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Initial research has shown a low usage of characters set Certificates as public
Why should this drive a change?
The reason no one uses them is it gives out free info as to what your character has trained to anyone who wants to know.
As paranoid as this game requires you to be why would anyone set them as public?
Leave them as is, their good for people who need to know what skill sets are recommended to fly new ships. Just because certificates have a low percentage of people setting them as public doesn't mean they need changing.
As a side note when I claim a certificate I would love to be able to double click it in the window that pops up just after you claim a new certificate and it take me to that certificate in the certification planner. As it is now its like 'Hey heres a new cert but go Not today spaghetti. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
800
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Put a disclaimer on the cert planner that says "Warning, this planner does not help you plan your skill progression in any way shape or form"
TBH i think you need to totally overhaul the cert thing or just scrap it. Its not something that will become useful with some minor tweaks BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
114
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Weren't certificates initially implemented so people would better know what to train for?
I've never made any of my certificates public, earlier because I used to be very specialized and I didn't want anyone to know just what to use to counter me before the fight even started and later because I never saw any reason to do so, as a certificate does not require any kind of special commitment to gain, just time. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Daedalus II
The Oasis Group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
161
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
The only certificate I show publicly is Hull tanking: elite, because as we all know, real men hull tank.
I think certificates should be changed into what people expected them to be when they were introduced; a collection of skills an experienced person can define and then distribute to less experienced persons to indicate what they need to train to reach a specific goal (to join a corp, to fit in a fleet, and so on). This is pretty much the only thing that would make certificates truly useful.
I guess the original certificates could be kept, at least for the basic stuff, but there need to be a possibility to inject new custom certificates. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1067
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but donGÇÖt mention to which fields they apply GÇô for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills. Sounds like an intel tool to me. This would give an indication if that guy in local is a cyno/scout alt or someone's main - depending on if they actually claim their certificates.
I like certificates! I used the certificate tool a lot when starting out. I liked being able to click on a cert and seeing all the skills that could effect a certain aspect of flying ships. I found the certificate tree a lot less daunting to look at and comprehend than either the skill queue or the skills in market - there's so many it felt difficult to choose between them. The certificate tree, however, showed me the skills I could train for capacitor or the skills that I could train for lasers.
I didn't care too much about actually finishing the skills for a level of a certificate, but I did use the tool to decide what to train next for what I wanted to do in space.
I'd never make certs public, though. There's no real use for me. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
133
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Daedalus II wrote:The only certificate I show publicly is Hull tanking: elite, because as we all know, real men hull tank.
I think certificates should be changed into what people expected them to be when they were introduced; a collection of skills an experienced person can define and then distribute to less experienced persons to indicate what they need to train to reach a specific goal (to join a corp, to fit in a fleet, and so on). This is pretty much the only thing that would make certificates truly useful.
I guess the original certificates could be kept, at least for the basic stuff, but there need to be a possibility to inject new custom certificates.
This also opens up other interesting things, such as personal skill planning (like a built in EveMon). Also new types of services where you for example could sell fully fitted ships + certificate to fly them properly.
mmm.. create new ones with specific skills // like doctrine certificates 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
173
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
When I was a young player with no idea of whats going on, I used to choose the certificates as goals that were recommended for ships, it wasn't a very good or orderly progression, but most of the skills ended up being relevant and useful.
I think with some proper direction and focus the certificates can be useful. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence Kraken.
42
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but donGÇÖt mention to which fields they apply GÇô for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills.
Would you feel comfortable with any of these options? Which ones do you like? Options outside that list may be considered as well, if expressed in a constructive manner. This gets my full support. It'd be nice to be able to "show" people the certificates you have without broadcasting: "Oh, he has maxed all of his shield, tank, fitting, and laser skills".
Etc.. Save the drones! |
Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts. Casoff
180
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lots already said here.
1) Public certiicates only give pvp-ers informations you don't want them to have.
2) I like the idea of certiicates, but they don't realy do anything. why claim them? it's not I get coolios from anyone for claiming them.
3) they're out dated, skills changed, new skills have be incerted. Missile Precision might be one of the single most importand missiles support skill and it's in non of the missile certiicates (Neither was Guided missile precision)
4) You could use them as prequisits for ships, though that would throw away the whole new setup. It might be a tool to be used for certain mission agents, in stead of standing, some mission agents would be more intrested in skill than how well they know their company. Some agents might think better of them not knowing their corp.
but as they are now.
the only time people speak about them is when advicing a new player and only
- Core certiicates - Defence Certiicates - Gunnery/Missile certificates
Navigation consists of so few skills people usualy tell you wich skills to learn. and all others are nevermentioned in my part o New Eden.
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John 1135
6
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
I guess my immediate response is
Corporation configured certificates
So you know, corps and alliances could configure certs for their key doctrines, and then they'd want players to display them. And having Elite in skillsets your alliance expressly desires would afford meaningful bragging rights. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
116
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:mmm.. create new ones with specific skills // like doctrine certificates
That is actually a great idea. +1 There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
116
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
They are nice. I get a warm feeling when it pops up and says I have a new certificate. I used EvEMon to try and work out how I could get the most Certificates in one go once by doing a REALLY stoopid skill queue - (I think I got 7 at once or something).
But other than that - Certificates need a game play function to get used more. I've never seen someone displaying their certificates - except for pirates listing industrial sounding certs for lols.
Information is power in EVE - and Certificates give power away. If you see me in a Hybrid ship - well - I don't want people to know I have virtually ZERO hybrid weapons specific skills - etc.
And I can't think of a way of introducing Certificates into the game mechanic that will not give a bigger advantage to higher SP players. . . . .
I mean - If you had the A++ Ship Parking Certificate - you might be able to get slightly reduced Insurance Premiums?
If you ever Expand WiS - and this is a brain fart idea - but you could have "Clubs" that you could only enter if you have say Elite Cert in this or that ? - but it isn't really Game Play that's vanity stuff
Maybe - Certs could get you access to different Clothes from the Nex Store? - Maybe you could get different haircuts or tattoos or something. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
116
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Posted - 2013.05.03 13:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Remove the ability to set Certificates as public
Actually I'd also like the ability to set them on visible to corp/alliance members only, etc. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper. |
John 1135
8
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Posted - 2013.05.03 13:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Actually I'd also like the ability to set them on visible to corp/alliance members only, etc. Nice.
So I'm imagining here certificates that are created by your corporation/alliance, and can be made visible to only your corp/alliance so they can see what their pilots can do.
A finesse would be a Corp Certs View, that lets appropriate officers get the count of pilots with each of their custom certs. So they can see how well prepared they are to fly given doctrines (and can use that to plan new ones). |
C DeLeon
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
111
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Posted - 2013.05.03 13:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Jonas Sukarala wrote:mmm.. create new ones with specific skills // like doctrine certificates That is actually a great idea. +1
Costumizable certificates by corporations/alliances where only our corp/alliance members could see it would be usefull. This way we could see what members what fleet doctrines can fly. General public certificates visible only for corp/alli members could be also usefull.
Quote: For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but donGÇÖt mention to which fields they apply GÇô for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills.
I don't like it. The whole point of holding back information is to make ourselfs more unpredictable for the enemy. More info about a players capabilities removes meta form the game and the importance of intel gathering. On the other hand shared corp/alliance notes on a character could be usefull. We have many mails about awoxers, baiters, hotdroppers and cynoalts becuse this is the easiest way to warn alliance members about tricky characters with dirty tactics. Shared notes could make such things easier.
Also ship skins for the general certificates \o/ |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
354
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Posted - 2013.05.03 13:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Reuse the certificate system and transform it into an achievement system, then you can make it public at will.
...But if achievements is something that will not happen, my recommendation is:
Their main focus should be about guiding someone to choose the skills that needs to fly a ship x, so instead of having this complex matrix of certificates you have today, drop them all.
Create flight certificate for each ship that lines up all the different levels of training you need to fly it (basic, standard, elite) and that is it.
Then you should be able to drag the basic rifter flight certificate (example) to the skill window and this window fills up with all the rifter skills and plans for its training even if it goes above 24 hours and this is the only exception to the 24h max, you choose or drag and drop a certificate to the skill window and the skill queue will follow it to the end.
That will be cool and will bring certificates back to being a useful tool.
PS: if the skills are not injected, if they are in a hangar that belongs to the user, inject them automatically, if not, bypass the training. Test 1, 2, 3... |
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators Illuminantur Dominium Sicarioum
5
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Posted - 2013.05.03 13:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Just remove the whole lot, they're useless in their current incarnation.
Totally unrealistic and utterly obtuse targets for certificate X and so on.
Remove, THINK about how to make them actually usable, THEN bring them back.
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Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Unclaimed.
84
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Posted - 2013.05.03 14:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
i have 2x 2003 toons and a 2004.
one is indy mostly, one is a mix and one is mostly pvp. if i am on my miner/drone ratter, i dont want anyone looking to see my missile skills are crap, gun skills are crap, i have good gallente bs and max drone skills, maxed mining and manufacturing skills. they automatically assume they can take my toon and it aids them by encouraging them to stalk me down.
now, if i am playing possum in my pvp main, i dont want someone to look in my cert planner and see i have 132 rank 5 combat/pvp skills but i am flying an itty 5... can you say "A TRAP!" ?
BUT HEY, WHAT DO I KNOW?
ccp seems to be making this gme so that the stalkers can prey on those who wish to play. if i wanna pvp, i want it on my terms. i want to dictate who does what and when. i dont want someone flyin around checking certificates to see who they could easily gang and who to leave alone. personally, i assume everyone who comes into nul sec is ready for war and the know their shyt. i dont even check their planner. i check corp history to see who they are with. goons? i suspect someone else lurkying around the corner. noob corp? they are a cyno for a hotdrop.
the concept of making these planning tools was good. it "should have helped" newer people. to me, they are still kind of conflicting. one doesnt need ALL the skills of a certain tree to be effective in a certain style ship. with the tools we have now, one can tailor make a toon to be just as lethal as mole is in 1/16th the time (in a particular type of ship). now, the benefits of being old is i can jump in ANY sub cap and almost be maxed out. time in game... certificates almost did their jobs, but evemon and others help more.
to force someone to display his training invites trouble for the someone.
if you want to do that, please allow the option to give ALL certificates back. to me, they were a novelty item. but i do not want someone sable to gain ANY info on my toons what-so-ever until they start taking damage and realize that they should have stayed in station. "oh crap! this isnt the indy toon!" |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2090
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Posted - 2013.05.03 14:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
In my opinion, there's very little motivation to bother messing with the certificate display settings... --- They don't alter your character's appearance. --- They don't provide any reliable, easy-to-access, utilizable metagaming information. For example, api keys provide full account information, including skills which is far more useful for recruitment, killboards provide combat prowess, and more importantly, previous ship fittings and fighting style/associates.
There's very little reason to "display" certificates, and so people simply don't bother to display them.
On thing that will make certificates more useful is to allow training a certificate level in the skill tree.... ---- What I mean by this, is training a certificate will simply auto-queue all related skills. Have this be the only way to add/train multiple day+ skills.
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