Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 21:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Looking at the new balance notes and what they've done with the T1 cruisers I believe that CCP is going to make minmatar the "crap" race again. Retribution for being good for so long.
Why do I think this way? Well leme point out some things that are bothering me..
The T1 balancing of the cruisers was so good, I loved it. However.. I noticed that minmatar was significantly weaker than before. The rupture is no longer amazing, it is mearly okay... The stabber only goes fast, and the bellicose is meh. The only ship I think that is well balanced from minmatar T1 cruisers is the scythe. And its a support vessel.
Looking at the new battlecruiser balances I noticed that the already nerfed hurricane is getting yet another nerf.. Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP", just very overrated. Its a wonderful ship to fly, one of my favorites... From the looks of it, not only did they already nerf the powergrid... but it is also losing a highslot, getting a weaker capacitor, becoming heavier, more signature radius, less cargo capacity.
Now I don't know much, but I think the hurricane is not going to be worth flying compared to the massively buffed other BCs. But wait... Wasn't the cyclone gaining some popularity with ASBs? They ruined that too. It is becoming a missile boat with 5 missile slots, two gun slots, and a single damage bonus to missiles. Sounds pretty worthless. Will the cyclone ever NOT suck?
If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now? I don't have any missile skills for the terrible cyclone... Does that mean all my training into gunnery goes to waste because CCP wants to split my race of ships into half missile boat half autocannon? The Typhoon is becoming a full missile ship, the claymore is going to become a missile ship, by this design structure they are using... I expect them to make many more minmatar ships into missile ships. And that means I (and many other minmatar pilots) cannot use these ships until we pour all of our training into missiles!
The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships, besides the maelstrom the other BS aren't that good... Their capitals are also pretty terrible.
tl;dr: Whats the deal CCP? I know minmatar were "winmatar" for a while, but that doesn't mean they should be **** now. Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'll agree with this. I'm in FW and a Tristan will easily brawl down two rifters in a 1v2 fight. They are that bad. The Moa, Vexor, and Maller Combat Cruisers all have configurations that approach 50k EHP and 500 DPS with short range ammo. The Rupture struggles at 43k EHP and subpar DPS. The Rupture's speed advantage is negligible. |
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Minmatar are not all '****' because not all of their ships are significantly more effective than the other races.
There are still a number of good Minmatar ships. The stabber is a nice ship, and the rupture can still fight decently enough, even if not quite as good as the others. The cyclone was gaining popularity with the ASBs because it took advantage of an already very powerful module.
It's not like Minmatar will be the only ones with two weapon systems. If you looked at the other races instead of just looking at Minmatar then you'd see that Amarr split SP between lasers and drones, Caldari between missiles and hybrids, and Gallente between hybrids and drones.
When you're looking at the Cyclone, you're not looking at it properly either. It has some decent bonuses and two utility highs is similar to what the hurricane has pre-rebalance.
Also: "The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:Minmatar are not all '****' because not all of their ships are significantly more effective than the other races.
There are still a number of good Minmatar ships. The stabber is a nice ship, and the rupture can still fight decently enough, even if not quite as good as the others. The cyclone was gaining popularity with the ASBs because it took advantage of an already very powerful module.
It's not like Minmatar will be the only ones with two weapon systems. If you looked at the other races instead of just looking at Minmatar then you'd see that Amarr split SP between lasers and drones, Caldari between missiles and hybrids, and Gallente between hybrids and drones.
When you're looking at the Cyclone, you're not looking at it properly either. It has some decent bonuses and two utility highs is similar to what the hurricane has pre-rebalance.
Also: "The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare.
Stabber isn't good, the rupture is weak compared to its counterparts, I consider the new cyclone a nerf... Even you said it was only taking "advantage of an already very powerful module".
With the ASB nerf and the upcoming cyclone nerf... I think the ship is completely worthless.
Drones do not count as a separate weapon system because they are used on 90% of the ships in the game. They are universally trained across all races. But something like missiles... isn't.
Caldari might be split between hybrid and missile... but they aren't split between armor and shield like minmatar are. Almost all caldari ships are shield tankers with the exception of the scorp.
"Also: The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare."
I never said it was insignificant. But I think you meant to say significant... Then I would disagree with you, again.
|
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:
"Also: The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare."
Just because you can't fly a capital ship doesn't mean that they don't matter.
I didn't say they didn't matter. I said that the majority of the game is subcap warfare, which remains correct.
The Cyclone is radically different - wait and see how it performs before bashing on it. EFT warrioring yields decent statistics for it. The ASB remains powerful despite the nerf as well.
If drones do not count as a weapon system, what do you think of ships such as the Ishtar, Gila, or the Dominix and Rattlesnake? Are they weak ships because they don't have good turrets and launchers?
I agree that there is a lot of different stuff to train into in terms of tank as well as weapons for the Minmatar, though. There isn't much that can be done about that.
Minmatar ships remain fast. Do not discount the advantages of speed on ships such as the Stabber, especially with the large falloff of ACs.
The Rupture and Rifter are subpar, though. The Hurricane nerfs haven't fully gone through yet, so as with the Cyclone wait and see. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:bigboy boss wrote:
"Also: The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships" is hardly insignificant. The vast majority of the game is subcap warfare."
Just because you can't fly a capital ship doesn't mean that they don't matter.
I didn't say they didn't matter. I said that the majority of the game is subcap warfare, which remains correct. The Cyclone is radically different - wait and see how it performs before bashing on it. EFT warrioring yields decent statistics for it. The ASB remains powerful despite the nerf as well. If drones do not count as a weapon system, what do you think of ships such as the Ishtar, Gila, or the Dominix and Rattlesnake? Are they weak ships because they don't have good turrets and launchers? I agree that there is a lot of different stuff to train into in terms of tank as well as weapons for the Minmatar, though. There isn't much that can be done about that. Minmatar ships remain fast. Do not discount the advantages of speed on ships such as the Stabber, especially with the large falloff of ACs. The Rupture and Rifter are subpar, though. The Hurricane nerfs haven't fully gone through yet, so as with the Cyclone wait and see.
Theres no need to wait and see if the cyclone is going to be bad or not. Anybody with half a brain can tell its going to be bad.
Rattlesnake is probably the worst pirate faction battleship, the Gila isn't anything amazing, the domi is most useful as a neut boat, but the ishtar is alright. Big deal. Everybody trains drones, just because a few ships get bonuses to drones doesn't make it the same as having to skill up an entirely different weapon system because half of the ships you knew as gunboats are turning into missile boats.
For the last time, the stabber is terrible. All it does is go fast. It's DPS is already terrible.. and you say to use it at fall off? Thats like 100 dps! Lol.
Shield Omen, HAM caracal, and Rail thorax POOP on a kiting stabber. POOP! |
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now?
A Cynabal?
Seriously though, I've been flying Minmatar ships almost exclusively for the last three years myself, simply because whenever I tried to fit something Sub-BS from another race (two of my characters are fully cross-skilled accross 4 races), the Minmatar option was flat out better (and I refuse to fly Drakes or Tengus).
I personally told people to just train for shields, projectiles and Minmatar if they want to win Eve
Minmatar had always been split weapons, it's just that people forgot about that because CCP ridiculously overpowered projectiles when changing their ammo types and tracking enhancers at the same time and thus, I guess most of the newer Minmatar-only pilots didn't even know their ships had launcher hardpoints.
Checking them out, I must say that I'm looking forward to fly a nanoed HAM-Cyclone, although I admit the situation must suck a little if you're just skilled for projectile Minmatar fits.
Overall the new ones are fine, imho - they're still the fastest race, so they determine the rules of engagement. That in itself is a big enough advantage to make drawbacks in other areas a necessity. |
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:
You do know that your DPS goes much lower at fall off... Right?
You do know that autocannons fight in falloff... Right?
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Name Family Name wrote:bigboy boss wrote: If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now?
A Cynabal? Seriously though, I've been flying Minmatar ships almost exclusively for the last three years myself, simply because whenever I tried to fit something Sub-BS from another race (two of my characters are fully cross-skilled accross 4 races), the Minmatar option was flat out better (and I refuse to fly Drakes or Tengus). I personally told people to just train for shields, projectiles and Minmatar if they want to win Eve Minmatar had always been split weapons, it's just that people forgot about that because CCP ridiculously overpowered projectiles when changing their ammo types and tracking enhancers at the same time and thus, I guess most of the newer Minmatar-only pilots didn't even know their ships had launcher hardpoints. Checking them out, I must say that I'm looking forward to fly a nanoed HAM-Cyclone, although I admit the situation must suck a little if you're just skilled for projectile Minmatar fits. Overall the new ones are fine, imho - they're still the fastest race, so they determine the rules of engagement. That in itself is a big enough advantage to make drawbacks in other areas a necessity.
So the only ship I can use my medium autocannons is a pirate faction (not even minmatar) crusier that costs something like 300mil just for the hull? k.
The ham cyclone does the exact same missile DPS as a caracal. The funny thing is, a caracal can probably kill the cyclone by kiting it because of superior range and speed.
Speed alone doesn't matter. Before minmatar had speed and DPS, thats what made them deadly. But now we have a stabber that can barely do 100 dps at kiting range. Meh. |
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:bigboy boss wrote:
You do know that your DPS goes much lower at fall off... Right?
You do know that autocannons fight in falloff... Right? Perfect example of strawman argument. This just shows how weak your original position was.
Perfect example of evading a point you can't answer.
"The ham cyclone does the exact same missile DPS as a caracal. The funny thing is, a caracal can probably kill the cyclone by kiting it because of superior range and speed." The tank on the Cyclone is vastly superior. ASBs remain strong modules. You also just pointed out that the Cyclone could be kited with 'superior range and speed'. Stabber.
Drones are clearly a proper weapon system when the majority of a ship's damage output comes from them. Thus, every race has a split weapons system. Minmatar pilots have trained primarily projectiles, so what? Train another weapon system like the other races. |
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:bigboy boss wrote:
You do know that your DPS goes much lower at fall off... Right?
You do know that autocannons fight in falloff... Right? Perfect example of strawman argument. This just shows how weak your original position was. Perfect example of evading a point you can't answer. "The ham cyclone does the exact same missile DPS as a caracal. The funny thing is, a caracal can probably kill the cyclone by kiting it because of superior range and speed." The tank on the Cyclone is vastly superior. ASBs remain strong modules. You also just pointed out that the Cyclone could be kited with 'superior range and speed'. Stabber. Drones are clearly a proper weapon system when the majority of a ship's damage output comes from them. Thus, every race has a split weapons system. Minmatar pilots have trained primarily projectiles, so what? Train another weapon system like the other races.
Either troll or daft. |
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: Either troll or daft.
So instead of answering a point you discount it as a 'troll'? |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
627
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
I don't see Winmatards ditching their boats for the new and improved Thorax en mass. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
73
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 00:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nerf winmatar
...no seriously Oderint Dum Metuant |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1295
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 00:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete. The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same. The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc). the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho. |
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 00:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete. The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same. The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc). the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho.
The Rifter lost out in the rebalancing, true. Some others did not, however, for example the Slasher, which is a very nice frigate. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2726
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 00:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete. The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same. The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc). the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho.
While I agree that Minmatar is no longer as stand-out win as they used to be, I have to disagree that the Cane changes are 'worse than obsolete'. It's not even remotely the worst BC after the changes. Or even on the worst side of it.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam A Point In Space
549
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 00:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them.
Yes it is. Thats why it's call balancing. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
455
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 00:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Looking at the new balance notes and what they've done with the T1 cruisers I believe that CCP is going to make minmatar the "crap" race again. Retribution for being good for so long.
Why do I think this way? Well leme point out some things that are bothering me..
The T1 balancing of the cruisers was so good, I loved it. However.. I noticed that minmatar was significantly weaker than before. The rupture is no longer amazing, it is mearly okay... The stabber only goes fast, and the bellicose is meh. The only ship I think that is well balanced from minmatar T1 cruisers is the scythe. And its a support vessel.
Looking at the new battlecruiser balances I noticed that the already nerfed hurricane is getting yet another nerf.. Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP", just very overrated. Its a wonderful ship to fly, one of my favorites... From the looks of it, not only did they already nerf the powergrid... but it is also losing a highslot, getting a weaker capacitor, becoming heavier, more signature radius, less cargo capacity.
Now I don't know much, but I think the hurricane is not going to be worth flying compared to the massively buffed other BCs. But wait... Wasn't the cyclone gaining some popularity with ASBs? They ruined that too. It is becoming a missile boat with 5 missile slots, two gun slots, and a single damage bonus to missiles. Sounds pretty worthless. Will the cyclone ever NOT suck?
If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now? I don't have any missile skills for the terrible cyclone... Does that mean all my training into gunnery goes to waste because CCP wants to split my race of ships into half missile boat half autocannon? The Typhoon is becoming a full missile ship, the claymore is going to become a missile ship, by this design structure they are using... I expect them to make many more minmatar ships into missile ships. And that means I (and many other minmatar pilots) cannot use these ships until we pour all of our training into missiles!
The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships, besides the maelstrom the other BS aren't that good... Their capitals are also pretty terrible.
tl;dr: Whats the deal CCP? I know minmatar were "winmatar" for a while, but that doesn't mean they should be **** now. Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them.
Breacher = win Slasher = decent Thrasher = win Talwar = decent Rupture = decent Bellicose = win Cyclone = decent Hurricane = good
As opposed too..
Punisher = **** tormentor = decent Coercer = good Dragoon = decent Maller = **** (Being semi competent at ab cruiser gangs does not count) Omen = **** Proph = brick Harb = decent
The **** are you complaining about?
|
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 00:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete. The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same. The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc). the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho.
I kind of agree the rifter needs a little finetuning, but calling it obsolete is an exageration. It just went from being the only viable T1 frig since the games existance to a mediocre one.
I completely disagree on the Cane. Most fits just need minor modifications to keep it viable and it was flat out obsoleting any cruiser in Battlecruisers online for far too long.
All in all, I think CCP just dropped the background perspective when it comes to ship-balancing. E.g. Minmatar exceled in small, cheap ships as you'd expect from slave-rebels specialicing in Guerilla tactics, whereas anything Amarr exorbitantly sucked sub-BS, as you'd expect from a traditionally large, rich empire.
Since the background was dropped in all other areas, it's only logical they drop it when it comes to ship balance.
The impression there was a trend for Mins being shat upon during the last months just results from the fact that they have been vastly overpowered in low-cost ships and these were the classes that were rebalanced.
They deserve even some more brown, warm love when it comes to Projectiles in combination with TE's, fitting requirements, sig radius, as well as a review of armor vs. shield tanking.
Maybe when CCP do all the latter, I'll consider flying something else again. |
|
yer mammy
Derp Inc
33
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 00:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
it is annoying to see what they're doing to some of these ships, but you also can't call yourself a true minmatar pilot without having both gunnery and missile skills. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 01:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Name Family Name wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Yeah this started back with frig changes making the rifter obsolete. The cane changes are making it worse than obsolete which is a damn same. The min BSs have never been good, cruisers are fine, T2 lineup is still good (yet to be balanced ofc). the trend definitely has been to sh*t on minmatar these past 6 months tho. I kind of agree the rifter needs a little finetuning, but calling it obsolete is an exageration. It just went from being the only viable T1 frig since the games existance to a mediocre one. I completely disagree on the Cane. Most fits just need minor modifications to keep it viable and it was flat out obsoleting any cruiser in Battlecruisers online for far too long. All in all, I think CCP just dropped the background perspective when it comes to ship-balancing. E.g. Minmatar exceled in small, cheap ships as you'd expect from slave-rebels specialicing in Guerilla tactics, whereas anything Amarr exorbitantly sucked sub-BS, as you'd expect from a traditionally large, rich empire. Since the background was dropped in all other areas, it's only logical they drop it when it comes to ship balance. The impression there was a trend for Mins being shat upon during the last months just results from the fact that they have been vastly overpowered in low-cost ships and these were the classes that were rebalanced. They deserve even some more brown, warm love when it comes to Projectiles in combination with TE's, fitting requirements, sig radius, as well as a review of armor vs. shield tanking. Maybe when CCP do all the latter, I'll consider flying something else again.
1. Gameplay and RP fluff don't mix.. Amarr being a rich empire is a terrible reason for their sub-bs's being bad
2. The Rifter is ****, its one of four t1 frigs i have never died to while being the one out of those four i have fought the most often.
|
Moonasha
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
Excuse me.. minmatar seem worse off now because they were absolutely the goto race for pvp. Just look at the versatility of the god damn cane. And the rupture. QQ. Try flying amarr and being limited to 2 or 3 ships pre changes. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
272
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Read lots of interesting stuff. Someone claimed the omen was bad. Interesting. i'd rate it the best attack cruiser right now, period. Better projected damage than a stabber and more HP than a thorax, i don't see what's bad about it. It's speed might be 'slow' - but it's still on par with the thorax and better than the caracal due to low-slot usage. Plus "DAT DRONE BAY".
The rifter is bad. Worst frigate in the game. Has no role, no benefits, no dps, no tank, no drones, no speed.
Hurricane is becoming the hur-dur-icane. It's going to have lower dps, tank, speed and agility that almost every other BC. I don't understand why balance means 'nerf' The cane and drake where shining example of the BC category. So they are basically nerfing instead of buffing, which is pointless.
Stabber btw is awful. Truly awful. The rupture is out-brawled and out-kited by a thorax. Don't even think about using a vexor against it, cause it;s laughable. The maller btw has potential, but it doesn't fit well into the current meta of kiting but has the benefits of laser projection, even if it is a brick.
Basically the minmatar line-up is being turned on its head. it's ships are becoming slower and they universally are having their bonused damage slots made 1 less than another races equivalent. And that it's, they are become a mid-ground race. No advantages what so-ever over any 1 race. In reply to the dev blog statement about the cyclone: If you are having trouble distinguishing the cyclone from the drake its because you are awful at Eve. it's already completely different from it and useful. What you are doing now is making it super awful as opposed to 'sub-par but can ASB lol'
I fly all 4 races and here is my current line-up of ships slown:
Talos: Best Tier3 BC for anything other than 50-100km BLAP. I love it. Dominix: Superb. DDA's revolutionised this ship. Vagabond: I fly it when im too lazy to scout myself but don't want to die to a blob. It can't kill anything though without links and a faction point. Sometimes things follow me off-gate and forget to warp away. Taranis: I hated it for ages, but recently re-discovered why i loved it for years. Malediction: Best interceptor tackler when under 5km Tornado: I use it for trolling people who station camp me. 1-shotting frigs though is about as good as it gets outside of large fleets. Vexor: Supreme cruiser. Thorax: Will use it when my vexor FINALLY dies. Sleipnir: Utter monster of a ship. CCP, make all minnie ships like this and i'll do hideously enjoyable things to you. Loki: I refuse to buy one a new one. Worst tank, dps and EW of all Strat cruisers. Linked faction proteus is a terrifying things. Loki is 'meh'. Prophecy: It's a better AC boat than the cyclone. It also fits amazingly into the current meta. Drake: This ship is just hard to beat in most situations. I hate it. But i can't find anything better than it. Slicer: It's a crusader, but not terrible.
Ships i will never touch again: Stabber. Rifter. Rupture.
Ship i will be flying when i need replacements: Megathron, Omen/Zealot, Legion,
TL;DR
Minmatar are going the way of the dinosaur. When people finally undock and stop chasing their targets 200km off-gate they will realise why you don't fly them. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
272
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Moonasha wrote:Excuse me.. minmatar seem worse off now because they were absolutely the goto race for pvp. Just look at the versatility of the god damn cane. And the rupture. QQ. Try flying amarr and being limited to 2 or 3 ships pre changes.
Cane is till ok. It's not a death monster like most people make out though.
The rupture is awful. Just try and find a rupture fit that isn't mediocre. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Looking at the new balance notes and what they've done with the T1 cruisers I believe that CCP is going to make minmatar the "crap" race again. Retribution for being good for so long.
Why do I think this way? Well leme point out some things that are bothering me..
The T1 balancing of the cruisers was so good, I loved it. However.. I noticed that minmatar was significantly weaker than before. The rupture is no longer amazing, it is mearly okay... The stabber only goes fast, and the bellicose is meh. The only ship I think that is well balanced from minmatar T1 cruisers is the scythe. And its a support vessel.
Looking at the new battlecruiser balances I noticed that the already nerfed hurricane is getting yet another nerf.. Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP", just very overrated. Its a wonderful ship to fly, one of my favorites... From the looks of it, not only did they already nerf the powergrid... but it is also losing a highslot, getting a weaker capacitor, becoming heavier, more signature radius, less cargo capacity.
Now I don't know much, but I think the hurricane is not going to be worth flying compared to the massively buffed other BCs. But wait... Wasn't the cyclone gaining some popularity with ASBs? They ruined that too. It is becoming a missile boat with 5 missile slots, two gun slots, and a single damage bonus to missiles. Sounds pretty worthless. Will the cyclone ever NOT suck?
If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now? I don't have any missile skills for the terrible cyclone... Does that mean all my training into gunnery goes to waste because CCP wants to split my race of ships into half missile boat half autocannon? The Typhoon is becoming a full missile ship, the claymore is going to become a missile ship, by this design structure they are using... I expect them to make many more minmatar ships into missile ships. And that means I (and many other minmatar pilots) cannot use these ships until we pour all of our training into missiles!
The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships, besides the maelstrom the other BS aren't that good... Their capitals are also pretty terrible.
tl;dr: Whats the deal CCP? I know minmatar were "winmatar" for a while, but that doesn't mean they should be **** now. Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them. Breacher = win Slasher = decent Thrasher = win Talwar = decent Rupture = decent Bellicose = win Cyclone = decent Hurricane = good As opposed too.. Punisher = **** tormentor = decent Coercer = good Dragoon = decent Maller = **** (Being semi competent at ab cruiser gangs does not count) Omen = **** Proph = brick Harb = decent The **** are you complaining about? EDIT: As to the nerfs to the cane.. Have you ever tried to fit a harbinger? like at all? Cane is still a LOT easier to fit, and its faster and it can actually hit stuff thats close up. LTP
Did you just call the Omen "****"? You've got no idea what you are talking about.
With the coming changes the prophecy will be a monster. Actually try to think so you realize that we are talking about the future updates here and not about the current state of balance. I know its hard but try.
And the harbinger is a beast atm, I don't know what you are talking about.
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:bigboy boss wrote: Either troll or daft.
So instead of answering a point you discount it as a 'troll'?
Yep, you fail to realize how a stabber with anemic DPS isn't worth even mentioning yet you keep yelling that "SPEED AND KITE = WIN!!!!111" Not only does the stabber have **** poor DPS, in falloff its doing even less than the already terrible DPS it gets on paper. So the fact that you think a stabber is a ship worth using makes you a troll or daft.
You consider drones to be a weapon system? Well minmatar have drones too, so I guess minmatar have to train THREE weapon systems now... plus armor and shields. So according to you minmatar need to train to do everything, and its okay that they have subpar ships even though their SP needs to be double/triple of their adversaries.
Right... Get real.
sabre906 wrote:I don't see Winmatards ditching their boats for the new and improved Thorax en mass.
I would if I had the right SP... The thorax is an AMAZING ship right now.
The problem is CCP isn't balancing, they are just making one race the "win butan" all over again. And thats a problem. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2727
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: Hurricane is becoming the hur-dur-icane. It's going to have lower dps, tank, speed and agility that almost every other BC. I don't understand why balance means 'nerf' The cane and drake where shining example of the BC category. So they are basically nerfing instead of buffing, which is pointless.
The Hurricane is not being noticeably nerfed.
Quote: Stabber btw is awful. Truly awful. The rupture is out-brawled and out-kited by a thorax. Don't even think about using a vexor against it, cause it;s laughable. The maller btw has potential, but it doesn't fit well into the current meta of kiting but has the benefits of laser projection, even if it is a brick.
Saying the Rupture is out brawled by the Thorax might make some sense, but saying it's out-kited is just nonsense.
Quote:Minmatar are going the way of the dinosaur. When people finally undock and stop chasing their targets 200km off-gate they will realise why you don't fly them.
There's nothing really wrong with Minmatar ships today. There's just nothing really great about them either.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2727
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: And the harbinger is a beast atm, I don't know what you are talking about.
What the **** are you talking about? The only BC currently worse than the Binger is the Prophecy. Post nerf, it is beyond question the worst BC. You should get your head examined if you think the Cane is bad and the Binger is "a beast".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
The Hurricane is not being noticeably nerfed.
Wrong, Its been nerfed and its being nerfed again soon.
Liang Nuren wrote: Saying the Rupture is out brawled by the Thorax might make some sense, but saying it's out-kited is just nonsense.
Wrong again, go look at the ship stats and realize how wrong you are. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2727
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
The Hurricane is not being noticeably nerfed.
Wrong, Its been nerfed and its being nerfed again soon. Liang Nuren wrote: Saying the Rupture is out brawled by the Thorax might make some sense, but saying it's out-kited is just nonsense.
Wrong again, go look at the ship stats and realize how wrong you are.
I am looking at the ship stats.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
164
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
For camping, you will still need artillery, no matter how badly they nerf winmatar. Also good luck keeping point on a stabber with a maller or thorax. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:For camping, you will still need artillery, no matter how badly they nerf winmatar. Also good luck keeping point on a stabber with a maller or thorax.
So it goes fast, big flippin deal.
Only thing its good for is bumping.
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
The Hurricane is not being noticeably nerfed.
Wrong, Its been nerfed and its being nerfed again soon. Liang Nuren wrote: Saying the Rupture is out brawled by the Thorax might make some sense, but saying it's out-kited is just nonsense.
Wrong again, go look at the ship stats and realize how wrong you are. I am looking at the ship stats. -Liang
Rupture speed 210 m/s.
Thorax 240 m/s.
Same exact slot layout... So what was this you were saying about the rupture out kiting the thorax? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2727
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:49:00 -
[33] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: Rupture speed 210 m/s.
Thorax 240 m/s.
Same exact slot layout... So what was this you were saying about the rupture out kiting the thorax?
There is more to kiting than base speed.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote: Rupture speed 210 m/s.
Thorax 240 m/s.
Same exact slot layout... So what was this you were saying about the rupture out kiting the thorax?
There is more to kiting than base speed. -Liang
You mean like the agility which is almost identical? Or how about the inertia, which is almost identical also... |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2727
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:You mean like the agility which is almost identical?
Generally speaking, kiting happens when someone fits their ship and undocks. Unless you're suggesting that an unfit Thorax can kite an unfit Rupture?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:You mean like the agility which is almost identical? Generally speaking, kiting happens when someone fits their ship and undocks. Unless you're suggesting that an unfit Thorax can kite an unfit Rupture? -Liang
An unfit thorax will be faster than an unfit rupture, and a similarly fit thorax will be faster than a similarly fit rupture.
I don't really see where you are going with this. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2727
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 02:58:00 -
[37] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: An unfit thorax will be faster than an unfit rupture, and a similarly fit thorax will be faster than a similarly fit rupture.
I don't really see where you are going with this.
I think it would depend on the fitting, and once we start talking about fittings it becomes a much more concrete discussion. Why don't you show me this Thorax fit that obsoletes all kiting Ruptures (and Stabbers)?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
73
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
The tears in this thread are simply delicious. It's about dam time CCP knocked winmatar down a few pegs tbh, if you think for 1 second they weren't OP then take a look at most used ships in pvp on a killboard (cba to find it atm) and what you guys are dealing with now is nothing new to all those who didn't hop on the FOTM train when it pulled out of station last time. I hate to use a played out internet meme but HTFU
-Exclusively Maxed Amarr Pilot Oderint Dum Metuant |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
274
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
Don't want to be a total **** Liang but you may have to concede this point. The thorax does more DPS than the rupture, This makes it projection equal to it within combat range. Add in drones...
The thorax is also faster than a rupture, even with a 1600 plate and remember it's an attack cruiser, so it's designed to be fast. The rupture would definately be a front-runner if they had kept then 6/3/5 layout and simply given it another turret. Rupture has always had insanely high grid for a 4-gun. Instead they gave it another mid (making it even more like the stabber) and took away a potential neut hi-slot for winning cap-wars against energy-based boats.
I get that you're hating on the harby, cause it's mediocre and best and is being made trash with the changes... but minmatar have been changed in a way that reflects absolutely no direction or makes any sense. They have some shield boats, some gun boats, some missile boats and wierd slot layouts that don't let them really excell at anything.
The arty cane still feels good, but i actually tore an AC hurricane in half a few days ago in an auto-cannon prophecy by fitting a capless tank/dps (yes there where other people on the KM, but it wasnt even close to winning with or without other people i barely got into 60% armor). It needs the speed/agility advantage like ALL minmatar ships to hold that range, even without kiting, that allows the lower DPS of autocannons to project more real dps.
Then again, based on our other discussions... we both know that doesn't really exist anymore. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2727
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Don't want to be a total **** Liang but you may have to concede this point. The thorax does more DPS than the rupture, This makes it projection equal to it within combat range. Add in drones...
The Thorax does indeed do more DPS, but only has equal projection when you include the drones. Unfortunately, the flight of mediums the Thorax can field is unlikely to be meaningful in a fight involving kiting ships like this. Furthermore, the EHP difference is quite substantial indeed. The Thorax is alright for kiting, but trying to claim its superior is just hogwash.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
A thorax with just a MWD will go 345m/s faster then Rupture with just a MWD. I can fit 425's and a HAM to a shield Rupture and get about 517 gross DPS using Barrage, two gyro, two tracking enhancers, and of course drones. 3.9 km optimal and 29.5km falloff. The HAM hits to 20km as do the drones. A Nuetron Thorax needs a little fitting help. I get 558 DPS with Null and Drones. 7.2 km optimal and 11.4 km falloff. The Rupture has 4k - 6k EHP more depending on fittings. In this scenario the rupture is comparable. It's versus the other combat cruisers that it really sucks. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote: An unfit thorax will be faster than an unfit rupture, and a similarly fit thorax will be faster than a similarly fit rupture.
I don't really see where you are going with this.
I think it would depend on the fitting, and once we start talking about fittings it becomes a much more concrete discussion. Why don't you show me this Thorax fit that obsoletes all kiting Ruptures (and Stabbers)? -Liang
Have two
[Thorax, Rail Kitting Thorax] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Warp Disruptor II Small Capacitor Booster II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
200mm Railgun II 200mm Railgun II 200mm Railgun II 200mm Railgun II 200mm Railgun II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Goes 2km a second. Puts 382 DPS at 18km optimal, 20km falloff. Full flight of warrior IIs plus 25 more for ECM drones, shield bots... whatever. (No "medium drones are bad for kiting" argument)
[Rupture, Rupture] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
1.8 km a second. (200 slower than thorax) 372 DPS at 3.5 optimal + 23 falloff (in falloff more like 280 DPS at 17km) Smaller drone bay than thorax, can only fit one flight of smalls drones plus one.
You might say "oooh well you used railguns blah blah" I've got that covered.
[Thorax, Neutron Thorax] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Warp Disruptor II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Warrior II x5
453 dps at 9km optimal + 14 falloff (at 17kms 330 dps and out DPSes the rupture to 22kms.) Want to brawl? NP, load antimatter and get 548 dps.
And the stabber? pfft, doesn't even come close.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:A thorax with just a MWD will go 345m/s faster then Rupture with just a MWD. I can fit 425's and a HAM to a shield Rupture and get about 517 gross DPS using Barrage, two gyro, two tracking enhancers, and of course drones. 3.9 km optimal and 29.5km falloff. The HAM hits to 20km as do the drones. A Nuetron Thorax needs a little fitting help. I get 558 DPS with Null and Drones. 7.2 km optimal and 11.4 km falloff. The Rupture has 4k - 6k EHP more depending on fittings. In this scenario the rupture is comparable. It's versus the other combat cruisers that it really sucks.
These numbers do not add up. I've set up a rupture with 425mms, a T2 HAM, hobgoblins, barrage ammo and T2 rage missiles... Overheated... And I only get 484 dps. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
276
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:The tears in this thread are simply delicious. It's about dam time CCP knocked winmatar down a few pegs tbh, if you think for 1 second they weren't OP then take a look at most used ships in pvp on a killboard (cba to find it atm) and what you guys are dealing with now is nothing new to all those who didn't hop on the FOTM train when it pulled out of station last time. I hate to use a played out internet meme but HTFU
-Exclusively Maxed Amarr Pilot
Some of us are old enough to remember minmatar being the most skill-point intensive race in the game with the least useful ships. The rifter, rupture and vagabond where the shining and only examples of minmatar ships that really shone. Now all 3 are mediocre.
TBH i looked at your KB and saw very little action. Normally i don't bother with these things because, like me, people will have more accounts and some will be fleet based mega KB accounts and some will be more solo based.
But the time-frame in your post represents someone who has only played eve for 2 years in a serious way (no ones first year in eve is ever a good reflection of balance when they die). I've been playing since 06' and maxed out minmatar ships. I jumped on the FOTM train. it was called gallente (blasterthron and nos domi's with ECM, plus ishtar pwn). Then it was amarr (nano damp curse, nano zealots, DPS geddons). Then minmatars time came to shine... and tbh that's more down to factors other than minmatar themselves, but eve's climate as a whole.
So please, don't act like this is justified and needs to be done. The old forums where coated in signatures such as:
"Buff Minmatar or grapple with the blind man!"
and
"Welcome to Eve, Please select difficult:
Easy Medium Hard Minmatar"
So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2727
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: [Thorax, Rail Kitting Thorax]
Goes 2km a second. Puts 382 DPS at 18km optimal, 20km falloff. Full flight of warrior IIs plus 25 more for ECM drones, shield bots... whatever.
I was pretty sure you'd lead with a Rail Thorax build. The real trick with it is going to be trying to minimize your transversal in a kiting fight - by attempting to push the Rupture or by attempting to make him chase you. It might work, but I remain skeptical of ~rails~.
Quote: [Thorax, Neutron Thorax]
453 dps at 9km optimal + 14 falloff (at 17kms 330 dps and out DPSes the rupture to 22kms.) Want to brawl? NP, load antimatter and get 548 dps.
I'm pretty sure that Thorax will lose on EHP alone.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote: [Thorax, Rail Kitting Thorax]
Goes 2km a second. Puts 382 DPS at 18km optimal, 20km falloff. Full flight of warrior IIs plus 25 more for ECM drones, shield bots... whatever.
I was pretty sure you'd lead with a Rail Thorax build. The real trick with it is going to be trying to minimize your transversal in a kiting fight - by attempting to push the Rupture or by attempting to make him chase you. It might work, but I remain skeptical of ~rails~. Quote: [Thorax, Neutron Thorax]
453 dps at 9km optimal + 14 falloff (at 17kms 330 dps and out DPSes the rupture to 22kms.) Want to brawl? NP, load antimatter and get 548 dps.
I'm pretty sure that Thorax will lose on EHP alone. -Liang
Okay.. Drop the cap booster, add an invul.. gets you about 22k EHP, compared to the ruptures 25k. 3k EHP isn't going to matter when the rupture can only shoot explosive/kin damage to the thorax, and the thorax does more DPS plus thermal/kin damage vs shields. Your a smart guy.. Do you honestly think the rupture has a chance?
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
276
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km
The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...
That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km
The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...
That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm.
Plus not to mention that loading ammo into hybrids takes 5 seconds while the rupture has to wait for 10 seconds to change to close range ammo if the thorax decides to dive in.
I seriously don't see how people think minmatar are going to be okay after the nerfs. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
276
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
P.s.
I'm excited about the new Deimos. If they move a hi to a mid then i have my new ship. Literally wont touch my vaga at that point. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
276
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Maeltstome wrote:In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km
The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...
That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm. Plus not to mention that loading ammo into hybrids takes 5 seconds while the rupture has to wait for 10 seconds to change to close range ammo if the thorax decides to dive in. I seriously don't see how people think minmatar are going to be okay after the nerfs.
Believe it or not i don't have a problem with the changes. The issue is that eve is stuck in a rut right now in terms of solo and small scale PVP. Everything happens on a gate and on stations - so brick tanks and logi always win. There would need to be some SERIOUS changes to eve as a whole for that to improve.
These posts are kinda bickering over small issues that don't touch on the bigger issues that effect us all: Eve is stale and requires 4 hours of work for 10 minutes of fun. Losec is good fun sometimes because people there are generally only there to fight, but the whole sec status/faction standings things just ruins the game and pidgeon holes you into doing only one thing with that charatcer. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
631
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ah, EFT... Look at the Winmatards at it, it's as if they've never flown medium blasterboats, or medium railboats (not that anyone do). I'll believe it when you undock with these. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:46:00 -
[51] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Maeltstome wrote:In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km
The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...
That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm. Plus not to mention that loading ammo into hybrids takes 5 seconds while the rupture has to wait for 10 seconds to change to close range ammo if the thorax decides to dive in. I seriously don't see how people think minmatar are going to be okay after the nerfs. Believe it or not i don't have a problem with the changes. The issue is that eve is stuck in a rut right now in terms of solo and small scale PVP. Everything happens on a gate and on stations - so brick tanks and logi always win. There would need to be some SERIOUS changes to eve as a whole for that to improve. These posts are kinda bickering over small issues that don't touch on the bigger issues that effect us all: Eve is stale and requires 4 hours of work for 10 minutes of fun. Losec is good fun sometimes because people there are generally only there to fight, but the whole sec status/faction standings things just ruins the game and pidgeon holes you into doing only one thing with that charatcer.
I agree, but all I'm saying is I'm tired of CCPs idea of balance which is something along the lines of ...
Ok.. lets make this race really OP for a year then next year it'll be this races turn... then etc etc.
sabre906 wrote:Ah, EFT... Look at the Winmatards at it, it's as if they've never flown medium blasterboats, or medium railboats (not that anyone do). I'll believe it when ppl starts to undock with these.
0/10. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
962
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:46:00 -
[52] - Quote
Meh. I forgot to take the damage implants out. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Okay.. Drop the cap booster, add an invul.. gets you about 22k EHP, compared to the ruptures 25k. 3k EHP isn't going to matter when the rupture can only shoot explosive/kin damage to the thorax, and the thorax does more DPS plus thermal/kin damage vs shields. Your a smart guy.. Do you honestly think the rupture has a chance? Go fly that rail thorax, it doesn't disappoint. Cap booster makes it able to kite all day long.
You need the cap booster to have the capacitor to actually kill the Rupture. Yes, the Rupture has a chance.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: I agree, but all I'm saying is I'm tired of CCPs idea of balance which is something along the lines of ...
Ok.. lets make this race really OP for a year then next year it'll be this races turn... then etc etc.
So you're saying that you wish CCP would spend more time balancing the game than they have in the last few years? Well, you're certainly an observant one.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km
The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...
That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm.
See, but now you're talking about the Thorax as it was meant to be flown: get up in someone's face and try to brawl them down. That's not kiting. It'd lose horribly to a brawler fit Rupture and win gloriously vs a kiting rupture. /shrug
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote: I agree, but all I'm saying is I'm tired of CCPs idea of balance which is something along the lines of ...
Ok.. lets make this race really OP for a year then next year it'll be this races turn... then etc etc.
So you're saying that you wish CCP would spend more time balancing the game than they have in the last few years? Well, you're certainly an observant one. -Liang
Stop grasping at straws.
What balance is this if all they are doing is making one race crap and another wtfOP. Nothing changes the game will still be unbalanced as hell. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 03:59:00 -
[57] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: Stop grasping at straws.
What balance is this if all they are doing is making one race crap and another wtfOP. Nothing changes the game will still be unbalanced as hell.
They aren't making one race crap and another WTFOP. Hell, you can't even decide which race is WTFOP. First you think it's Gallente, then Amarr, and then Caldari, and then... well, anyone but whatever you've got YOUR SP invested in.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 04:01:00 -
[58] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote: Stop grasping at straws.
What balance is this if all they are doing is making one race crap and another wtfOP. Nothing changes the game will still be unbalanced as hell.
They aren't making one race crap and another WTFOP. Hell, you can't even decide which race is WTFOP. First you think it's Gallente, then Amarr, and then Caldari, and then... well, anyone but whatever you've got YOUR SP invested in. -Liang
rofl, you literally just made that up. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 04:06:00 -
[59] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:rofl, you literally just made that up.
So I take it you no longer believe the Omen is the best kiting cruiser and the Harbinger is "a beast"? You've been laying it on thick about how every race but Minmatar is just full of amazing WTFOP ships. Then you say such ******** **** as "The Hurricane is the worst BC!"
-Liang
Ed: Even if Minmatar is coming out of this rebalancing a little weak (and they are coming out A LITTLE weak), people like you and your forum warrioring are not the way to solve the problem. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 04:11:00 -
[60] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:rofl, you literally just made that up. So I take it you no longer believe the Omen is the best kiting cruiser and the Harbinger is "a beast"? You've been laying it on thick about how every race but Minmatar is just full of amazing WTFOP ships. Then you say such ******** **** as "The Hurricane is the worst BC!" -Liang
Nope I never said the hurricane is the worst BC.
The omen is an amazing kiting cruiser.
The harbinger is a beast.
The thorax is a great cruiser that can do it all.. Can it kite better than an omen? IDK. But atleast they are competitive instead of being blown out of the water like all the minmatar crap CCP is giving us. No matter how much you try to convince yourself.. The minmatar ships are just not good anymore..
Kiting rupture? Not good.
Brawler rupture? Even worse.
Stabber? Give me a break.
|
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 04:23:00 -
[61] - Quote
The way we got the Minmatar boost the first time around was to present the facts, not make **** up and hope it stuck. The way you're going at it now is just counter productive. For instance: - The Hurricane has been slightly nerfed, not destroyed. It doesn't suck now, and it won't suck after the patch. Comparing the Harbinger to it favorably - either before or after the patch - shows that you're just out of your ******* mind and have no clue about the game. - I don't agree with the Cyclone changes, but it doesn't suck now and it probably won't after the patch comes out either. - The Rupture is alright, but not great. It's got life left in it for both kiting and brawling and occupies a nice jack-of-all-trades area that means it never sucks and never really shines. I agree it's not the most (read: only) viable cruiser anymore, but that's a ******* good thing man.
As it stands, you're just shitting all over everything and that's just not an effective way to make your voice heard.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 04:34:00 -
[62] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The way we got the Minmatar boost the first time around was to present the facts, not make **** up and hope it stuck. The way you're going at it now is just counter productive. For instance: - The Hurricane has been slightly nerfed, not destroyed. It doesn't suck now, and it won't suck after the patch. Comparing the Harbinger to it favorably - either before or after the patch - shows that you're just out of your ******* mind and have no clue about the game. - I don't agree with the Cyclone changes, but it doesn't suck now and it probably won't after the patch comes out either. - The Rupture is alright, but not great. It's got life left in it for both kiting and brawling and occupies a nice jack-of-all-trades area that means it never sucks and never really shines. I agree it's not the most (read: only) viable cruiser anymore, but that's a ******* good thing man.
As it stands, you're just shitting all over everything and that's just not an effective way to make your voice heard.
-Liang Nah the way I see it is.. you've been proven wrong in the thread. You've said some outright wrong things, instead of having reasonable replies or even posting a fit or two you've just constantly stated how you think whatever when all the evidence is against you. You are too stubborn to accept that you could for one second be wrong, so you are resorting to telling me I'm out of my mind, no clue about the game, and that I'm counter productive. And then you try to make up some stuff that I never said and try to put words into my mouth? hahahaha.
Just because you think that the harbinger (or anything) isn't good doesn't make it so. You need to provide reasons, your posts are not gospel.
Like it was suggested by someone else before, just concede. Either that or post facts and reasoning. Not just "I think this" "I'd beat that in this" "This ship is good because I say so!"
Time to grow up. Time to be a bigboy. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 04:56:00 -
[63] - Quote
Comments: - All evidence is not against me. The Rupture is still a better kiting ship than the Thorax. You seem pretty confident but even in a head to head between them it's not really clear which would win. The Thorax fits you keep putting out are pretty weak on HP and projection and not significantly better in raw DPS. - The Harbinger is getting absolutely demolished in the patch, and pretty much all feedback about it has said so. The claims that the Hurricane "sucks" or is "the worst" are comparatively ludicrous - both now and then.
Again: I stand by what I've said. Minmatar is coming out poorly in the rebalances. However, it's not nearly to the extent that you make it out to be. And if you want to fix that, you're going to have to do better than sound like a hysterical littleboy.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 05:14:00 -
[64] - Quote
Let's take a look at your assertion that the Thorax is a better kiting ship than the Rupture. Right now we seem to be focusing on which would win a theoretical 1v1, despite the fact that's probably not a good measure of the ships. Let's take a look at the vital stats.
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Rupture: 1.7km/s, 29k EHP to Null, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.
Thorax TTL: 80 seconds Rupture TTL: 138 seconds
Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because it's faster).
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2728
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 05:18:00 -
[65] - Quote
Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.
Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters] Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.
Thorax TTL: 72 seconds Rupture TTL: 95 seconds
Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).
-Liang
Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!" Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
74
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 06:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please.
Everything else you said didn't really matter but i will address this concern of yours. I base what I said off of what I know and apparently CCP has known for quite sometime. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1730
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 09:32:00 -
[67] - Quote
It's like these FOTM pilots have only two steps in their balance scale-
OP Useless
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ChromeStriker
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
459
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 10:16:00 -
[68] - Quote
I do like a good rant against Liang thread. Especially when she draws it out
My observation is that yes the rupture/ cane have had a hit in recent times, however they still hold the high spot for pure versatility. In a FLEET (none of this 1v1 rubbish lol) canes/ruptures, will constantly be doing decent dmg, with a web, point, and neut. All at at decent speed and with respectable tank. yes yes depending on shield, armor etc. shield you get more gank armor you get webs n things - Nulla Curas |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
659
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 10:35:00 -
[69] - Quote
This thread is hilarious, OP is either a troll, a 5 yearold or some clown who's incapable of logic and unbiased reasoning, that's probably why he's using a ****** posting alt for it. Perhaps he's all 3 at the same time.
Minnie has been overpowered for solo and small gang warfare and even in some fleet setups. I know it, you know it and the OP knows it. The vast majority of people who fly Minnie don't do it because they're so in synch with the whole minmatar background, they do it because they're OP. To quote the first post: "Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP"". That right there is where people need to stop reading his drivel and realise he's just a clown.
Also, be happy. Fozzie could have easily removed a mid or low slot instead of that utility high (2 utility highs is retardedly OP on a non-cap using BC), apart from that almost all tier 2 BCs got nerfed in HP etc. Now Minnie is on par with the rest with good and bad points, pros and cons. As it should be.
Deal with it, stop being a 5 yearold and stop voicing your trolly/biased opinions. For any technical reasoning I'll refer to Liang's posts, really no need to state the same twice in this **** thread. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance 24eme Legion Etrangere
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 11:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
The minmatar tears in this thread are exquisite.
"We don't have a monopoly on all the good ships anymore. Please buff us."
"Other factions having ships that can beat us is OP."
Oh, and as the amarr fanboi...
The new omen is much improved, but is by no means an 'excellent kiting ship'
No utility high, three mids, and guns that require cap on a hull with a rof bonus. But, like I said, it is still like a zillion times better.
My advice, stop whining and realize that the days of having total superiority in frigates, cruisers, destroyers, tied for best in battlecruisers and command ships is over.
Also, HTFU. |
|
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
342
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 11:21:00 -
[71] - Quote
Speed Damage Range
Pick two . . .
see cause as minmatar youre used to having all three, but im sorry, now youre like all the rest of us mortals and have to pick two |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
462
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 11:36:00 -
[72] - Quote
The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
483
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:12:00 -
[73] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass.
This.
Also, active/buffer armor tanking being the crap it is... |
Fade Azura
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
132
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 16:02:00 -
[74] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote: Stop grasping at straws.
What balance is this if all they are doing is making one race crap and another wtfOP. Nothing changes the game will still be unbalanced as hell.
They aren't making one race crap and another WTFOP. Hell, you can't even decide which race is WTFOP. First you think it's Gallente, then Amarr, and then Caldari, and then... well, anyone but whatever you've got YOUR SP invested in. -Liang
liang is right .. they have done a good job balancing so far so let ccp do their work ... only thing id like to see is one of the gallente BC's get some other bonus other than the armor rep .. dont need two bc's with same bonus.
p.s. at this point i can fly pretty much everything so tbh im glad im not caring much about this stuff anymore. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 16:17:00 -
[75] - Quote
The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding.
Omen sucks? Settle down children.
Liang Nuren wrote:Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.
Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters] Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.
Thorax TTL: 72 seconds Rupture TTL: 95 seconds
Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).
-Liang
Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!"
Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship.
337 dps at 24km 1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k) 30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go) cap stability
[Omen, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Disruptor II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Energy Burst Aerator I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Warrior II x5
Best part? Remove the trimark and you go faster than the rupture while still doing more DPS and having better tank!
I thought the omen sucked!
Edit:
[Omen, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Disruptor II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I Medium Energy Burst Aerator I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Warrior II x5
Now it has
378 dps at 24km 1713 speed (armor ship faster than shield rupture lol) 27k ehp cap stable
And throughout the entire thread you've not posted a single fit only thrown out numbers that I've got no idea where you are getting from. |
vyshnegradsky
Organized-Chaos Apocalypse Now.
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Looking at the new balance notes and what they've done with the T1 cruisers I believe that CCP is going to make minmatar the "crap" race again. Retribution for being good for so long.
Why do I think this way? Well leme point out some things that are bothering me..
The T1 balancing of the cruisers was so good, I loved it. However.. I noticed that minmatar was significantly weaker than before. The rupture is no longer amazing, it is mearly okay... The stabber only goes fast, and the bellicose is meh. The only ship I think that is well balanced from minmatar T1 cruisers is the scythe. And its a support vessel.
Looking at the new battlecruiser balances I noticed that the already nerfed hurricane is getting yet another nerf.. Personally I never thought the hurricane was "OP", just very overrated. Its a wonderful ship to fly, one of my favorites... From the looks of it, not only did they already nerf the powergrid... but it is also losing a highslot, getting a weaker capacitor, becoming heavier, more signature radius, less cargo capacity.
Now I don't know much, but I think the hurricane is not going to be worth flying compared to the massively buffed other BCs. But wait... Wasn't the cyclone gaining some popularity with ASBs? They ruined that too. It is becoming a missile boat with 5 missile slots, two gun slots, and a single damage bonus to missiles. Sounds pretty worthless. Will the cyclone ever NOT suck?
If hurricane is so weak where am I going to use medium autocannons now? I don't have any missile skills for the terrible cyclone... Does that mean all my training into gunnery goes to waste because CCP wants to split my race of ships into half missile boat half autocannon? The Typhoon is becoming a full missile ship, the claymore is going to become a missile ship, by this design structure they are using... I expect them to make many more minmatar ships into missile ships. And that means I (and many other minmatar pilots) cannot use these ships until we pour all of our training into missiles!
The only thing minmatar had going for them was their sub-BS ships, besides the maelstrom the other BS aren't that good... Their capitals are also pretty terrible.
tl;dr: Whats the deal CCP? I know minmatar were "winmatar" for a while, but that doesn't mean they should be **** now. Balance is not punishing one race for being good by nerfing them.
confirming OP is an idiot This one's a bit over the edge guys.
Locked for breaking... well, pretty much all the rules.
- CCP Falcon |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:09:00 -
[77] - Quote
vyshnegradsky wrote:
confirming OP is an idiot
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=vyshnegradsky#kills |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
661
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:20:00 -
[78] - Quote
So where's your kills?
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1734
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:23:00 -
[79] - Quote
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_external_id=92810686
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
ChromeStriker
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
460
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:40:00 -
[80] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.
Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters] Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.
Thorax TTL: 72 seconds Rupture TTL: 95 seconds
Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).
-Liang
Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!" Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again? Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship. 337 dps at 24km 1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k) 30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go) cap stability
I can get those numbers on a rupture quite easily fyi... (il give liang the 7m/s lol *cough* straw clutching *cough*) - Nulla Curas |
|
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
661
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:47:00 -
[81] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:I can get those numbers on a rupture quite easily fyi... (il give liang the 7m/s lol *cough* straw clutching *cough*)
Yup, it's called adding damage profiles.
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:52:00 -
[82] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.
Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters] Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.
Thorax TTL: 72 seconds Rupture TTL: 95 seconds
Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).
-Liang
Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!" Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again? Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship. 337 dps at 24km 1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k) 30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go) cap stability I can get those numbers on a rupture quite easily fyi... (il give liang the 7m/s lol *cough* straw clutching *cough*) Tank is important because it means you dont die as quickly... (the 30k is against Anti matter....)
Yep, I ran the damage profile against antimatter and it wasn't 30k.
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:55:00 -
[83] - Quote
So what I got out of this is that you now want to compare the Rupture to the Omen because you don't think the Thorax is a better kiting ship. It's almost like the ships have different strengths and weaknesses and you have to choose which one you want to use...
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:So what I got out of this is that you now want to compare the Rupture to the Omen because you don't think the Thorax is a better kiting ship. It's almost like the ships have different strengths and weaknesses and you have to choose which one you want to use...
-Liang
Nope, I wanted to show you and the omen haters that if the omen is "bad" then the rupture must really suck if it is outperformed by an armor tanking kiting omen.
Also your numbers don't match up. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:03:00 -
[85] - Quote
The numbers match up fine, and have been confirmed repeatedly by other posters. Maybe your EFT is broken.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
276
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:05:00 -
[86] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote:In most 'kite' fits the rupture has about 15% more EHP. But its also 300-400 ms slower than the thorax, despite having better projected damage past 25km
The real travesty is this though: In any of the fits the thorax can just load void and overheat its MWD. It will out DPS it every time and is 20% faster...
That's kinda where im going with this. Gallente are getting faster and minmatar are getting slower. There used to be a point as to why minmatar where faster... and blasters are on the top of the buff-train atm. See, but now you're talking about the Thorax as it was meant to be flown: get up in someone's face and try to brawl them down. That's not kiting. It'd lose horribly to a brawler fit Rupture and win gloriously vs a kiting rupture. /shrug -Liang
You can tell how a rupture is fit within the first 2 cycles of its MWD. If its bricked you know you will out-kite it. If it's TE'd with some speed you know you can brawl it down. You have both options in a kiting thorax against a rupture.
P.s.
Don't you think this entire conversation proves the balance is off? It's something like Stabber <<<< Thorax/Rupture << Vexor -
Im flying an oversized vexor atm and im loving it. I wont go near the rupture since the vexor is so much better. And i wont go near the stabber since the thorax is so much better. For larger gangs ill hit up the omen |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:08:00 -
[87] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Maeltstome wrote: So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please.
Everything else you said didn't really matter but i will address this concern of yours. I base what I said off of what I know and apparently CCP has known for quite sometime.
This has been a stark reminder as to why i don't reply to people with a tiny bit of experience and a huge chip on their shoulder based on that experience. Good luck in life. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:08:00 -
[88] - Quote
Do our T1 cruiser options look like this: A) Rupture B) Rupture C) Rupture D) Rupture E) Rupture F) Rupture
No? You're telling me it sounds like: A) Caracal B) Omen C) Thorax D) Rupture E) Moa F) Vexor G) Arbitrator ... etc ...
Why yes I'd say that's a pretty damn big improvement.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:11:00 -
[89] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.
Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters] Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.
Thorax TTL: 72 seconds Rupture TTL: 95 seconds
Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).
-Liang
Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!" Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again? Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship. 337 dps at 24km 1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k) 30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go) cap stability I can get those numbers on a rupture quite easily fyi... (il give liang the 7m/s lol *cough* straw clutching *cough*) Tank is important because it means you dont die as quickly... (the 30k is against Anti matter....) You omen fit also needs a pg implant, has only 25k vs barrage and other such crazy important things in 1v1 stuff edit: also there's an extra hi slot on the rupture... i like them :D i m going to say SB cos of drones and in my head this would only ever happen in wonderland
Let's not pretend that ever be anything other than a neut on 90% of setups :)
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:12:00 -
[90] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Do our T1 cruiser options look like this: A) Rupture B) Rupture C) Rupture D) Rupture E) Rupture F) Rupture
No? You're telling me it sounds like: A) Caracal B) Omen C) Thorax D) Rupture E) Moa F) Vexor G) Arbitrator ... etc ...
Why yes I'd say that's a pretty damn big improvement.
-Liang
Hahaha, this entire time you've been thinking that we are arguing that we are sad that minmatar isn't the best at everything anymore.
You are wrong. What we are saying is that we understand that min has been OP for a while. But that doesn't justify CCP to come and make them absolutely useless.
The rupture does nothing better than its counterparts, it is mediocre at everything while every other race has a reason why it shines above the others. |
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:18:00 -
[91] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Speed Damage Range
Pick two . . .
see cause as minmatar youre used to having all three, but im sorry, now youre like all the rest of us mortals and have to pick two
Minmatar have never been on top for damage on any hull against hull comparison. AC's paper DPS is based on the *lowest optimal* in the game, so you never reach it. Choice of damage type has been the minmatar strength since they split their ammo into 3 damage/range tiers. Prior to that you used barrage, hail or EMP.
I've said it too many times: Stop getting your 50 man gang to chase 3 vagabonds for 200KM's off a gate then wonder why you die.
The hurricane is the exception since with 2x medium neut it can cap war-fare you while getting close to paper dps in brawl range with it's choice of damage type. Sadly this only applies to battlecruiser size hulls due to how terribad heavy neuts are against small/med nos. This leaves the tempest a narrow 'kite' gang neesh. Lets not talk about the phoon because i can't decide if i love or hate it. Maeltstrom i don't fly enough to comment in PVP situations. Oher than it having a ******** dual ASB tank. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:20:00 -
[92] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote: Hahaha, this entire time you've been thinking that we are arguing that we are sad that minmatar isn't the best at everything anymore.
You are wrong. What we are saying is that we understand that min has been OP for a while. But that doesn't justify CCP to come and make them absolutely useless.
The rupture does nothing better than its counterparts, it is mediocre at everything while every other race has a reason why it shines above the others.
That is exactly what you've been complaining about, and everyone in the thread knows it. There's nothing wrong with the Rupture except for the fact it's no longer the only viable T1 cruiser.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:22:00 -
[93] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Sigras wrote:Speed Damage Range
Pick two . . .
see cause as minmatar youre used to having all three, but im sorry, now youre like all the rest of us mortals and have to pick two Minmatar have never been on top for damage on any hull against hull comparison. AC's paper DPS is based on the *lowest optimal* in the game, so you never reach it. Choice of damage type has been the minmatar strength since they split their ammo into 3 damage/range tiers. Prior to that you used barrage, hail or EMP. I've said it too many times: Stop getting your 50 man gang to chase 3 vagabonds for 200KM's off a gate then wonder why you die. The hurricane is the exception since with 2x medium neut it can cap war-fare you while getting close to paper dps in brawl range with it's choice of damage type. Sadly this only applies to battlecruiser size hulls due to how terribad heavy neuts are against small/med nos. This leaves the tempest a narrow 'kite' gang neesh. Lets not talk about the phoon because i can't decide if i love or hate it. Maeltstrom i don't fly enough to comment in PVP situations. Oher than it having a ******** dual ASB tank.
Actually high falloff + damage type selection has allowed for higher real DPS than other races have been capable of fielding. Yeah you aren't getting full EFT DPS out of it but you're not exactly hindered by it since the TE buff.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:23:00 -
[94] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote: Hahaha, this entire time you've been thinking that we are arguing that we are sad that minmatar isn't the best at everything anymore.
You are wrong. What we are saying is that we understand that min has been OP for a while. But that doesn't justify CCP to come and make them absolutely useless.
The rupture does nothing better than its counterparts, it is mediocre at everything while every other race has a reason why it shines above the others.
That is exactly what you've been complaining about, and everyone in the thread knows it. There's nothing wrong with the Rupture except for the fact it's no longer the only viable T1 cruiser. -Liang
Re-read the OP.
Rupture has nothing going for it. Its just plain weaker. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:24:00 -
[95] - Quote
I think that statement is pretty much categorically proven to be false.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:24:00 -
[96] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Do our T1 cruiser options look like this: A) Rupture B) Rupture C) Rupture D) Rupture E) Rupture F) Rupture
No? You're telling me it sounds like: A) Caracal B) Omen C) Thorax D) Rupture E) Moa F) Vexor G) Arbitrator ... etc ...
Why yes I'd say that's a pretty damn big improvement.
-Liang
It's safe to see that you have schooled this guy in a straight, logical argument. Don't fall back on your old habbit of hyperbole and discredit yourself.
-Rupture was awesome. -Thorax started getting some serious usage as a 1600 plate boat. -Arbitrator has always been amazing, if under-used (why did it take THIS long for people to start spamming TE's? They are insane). -Vexor was by far the best tier 2 cruisers outside of the arby -Stabber was nerfed by the TE changes (you know what mean) -Osprey was underestimated and honestly performed on par with the stabber due to larger drone bay and stronger tank. Yuki-Li showed us all!
As a final note i'd rate almost everything above the rupture on your second list, except maybe the caracal. I don't get why people are so hard for it now, it's alright... but it's just a lazy man's kiting ship. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:25:00 -
[97] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I think that statement is pretty much categorically proven to be false.
-Liang
Maybe with your magical numbers with no fits to back them up.
Otherwise, no. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:27:00 -
[98] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Actually high falloff + damage type selection has allowed for higher real DPS than other races have been capable of fielding. Yeah you aren't getting full EFT DPS out of it but you're not exactly hindered by it since the TE buff.
-Liang
That real DPS was based on a range and speed advantage which is slowly evaporating. |
Carlos Jaegar
Nulli-Secundus
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:29:00 -
[99] - Quote
I actually really like the new Cyclone, looking forward to the patch. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:32:00 -
[100] - Quote
The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:32:00 -
[101] - Quote
Carlos Jaegar wrote:I actually really like the new Cyclone, looking forward to the patch.
Any reason besides just feelings? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2744
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:32:00 -
[102] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Actually high falloff + damage type selection has allowed for higher real DPS than other races have been capable of fielding. Yeah you aren't getting full EFT DPS out of it but you're not exactly hindered by it since the TE buff.
-Liang
That real DPS was based on a range and speed advantage which is slowly evaporating.
No, the damage was never based on that. The damage was based on TEs, ACs, and damage type selection.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:35:00 -
[103] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.
-Liang
Something is "good" in relation to its competition.
If the competition is better at everything while the rupture is always subpar... That makes the rupture weak. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:39:00 -
[104] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.
-Liang
TBH i think flying it in a 7km orbit with a web, scram, and TE is the only way it will consistently win against other cruisers of similar skill.
Works for the hookbill. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2745
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:41:00 -
[105] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The Rupture *was* awesome, and now it's merely good. Not WTFOP, but simply good. It's good for kiting, good for brawling - it'll never really be in a situation that it's actively bad, just as it won't be in one that's actively awesome. There's value in that too, you know.
-Liang Something is "good" in relation to its competition. If the competition is better at everything while the rupture is always subpar... That makes the rupture weak.
What I'm trying to get at is that the Rupture is pretty good at everything when compared to the entire field of competition. It may not take #1 at any particular thing (though really the jury should still be out on this), but it does pretty well at everything.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Klown Walk
New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
198
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:42:00 -
[106] - Quote
Why do you compare rails to ac?, compare it to arty instead. I have an arty rupture that goes 2,8k+ m/s with heat and 18k optimal + 36km falloff. |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
17
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:45:00 -
[107] - Quote
Does anyone have a link to the dev blog that points out the changes to BCs?
I like that they are doing balancing of ships, but I absolutely hate that they are doing it in away that completely changes a ship from gun to missile platform. I think this is a pretty terrible thing to do as a lot of people have found roles for certain ships. I.e. the Cyclone was an amazing ship with HG crystal + pill + large booster. Would tank like no other, have decent dps, and had the surprise factor as most people weren't expecting a cyclone in the first place.
Highly disappointed if this is the case. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1735
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:47:00 -
[108] - Quote
There's no Dev Blog out, but a Dev post https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191595&find=unread
Also guys, you are arguing with a troll who has never flown any ship into combat.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:48:00 -
[109] - Quote
Thanks very much. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:48:00 -
[110] - Quote
-snip- |
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2745
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:48:00 -
[111] - Quote
It's not a dev blog - it's a dev post in features and ideas. Here's a link: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191595&find=unread
Also: my first objection was to the Cyclone change. My second was to the super nerfhammer of doom to the Harbinger.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
963
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:57:00 -
[112] - Quote
I have every expectation that the Harb will get increased fitting grid before going out the door. |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 18:59:00 -
[113] - Quote
The changes to the harby don't look all that bad when you look at all the other ships. It loses some tank, gains some mass, but also will have higher DPS, and a lot better cap management.
Should still be pretty decent.
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
963
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:04:00 -
[114] - Quote
Armor Changes
This may change quite a few perceptions all the way around. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:11:00 -
[115] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Armor ChangesThis may change quite a few perceptions all the way around.
Oh wow, so now my armor omen will be even better!
Another nail in the coffin for the rupture. |
Mister Tuggles
Faceless Men
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:12:00 -
[116] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Armor ChangesThis may change quite a few perceptions all the way around.
Trip rep Myrm with the new armor rep mod + rig will be O.o |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
963
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:24:00 -
[117] - Quote
Noone would ever put a tracking disruptor in one of the Rupture's four mid slots. Ever. And the MARSB still requires cap to use- so have fun with an armor repper, cap booster, plate and guns on an Omen.
My 250mm rail Moa puts out 500 DPS to 23 km and has 30k EHP. OP? It is helpless at point blank range and needs someone to tackle. It's great against kitey caracals and omens though . Fit and counterfit. The new skills, rigs, and modules make the Rupture a true wild card though. Which is what Minmatar is all about. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
235
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:50:00 -
[118] - Quote
You know, I remember when Minmatar were considered the worst race for a long time (Rifter excepted, as until recently it was the king of frigates).
And you know what was even more interesting?
People feared fighting them.
They feared them because the people flying them were sh*t hot PVPers, who were taking ships that were noticably bad and doing serious damage with them by flying them to their strengths and coming up with interesting fits and tactics.
My point with all this?
So what if they're getting nerfed a bit, CCP have overbuffed them by lots of various direct and indirect buffs and are now fixing it, but they're still going to be very capable ships in the hands of good pilots.
The question is whether you think you can rise to the challenge like the pilots of old by proving that they're still deadly ships in the hands of a skilled pilot, or if you're going to sit and whine about losing your various advantages and proving to the world you're not the skilled pilot you make yourself out to be.
The decision is yours. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2756
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:52:00 -
[119] - Quote
You remember that weird pride when someone was like: "Yeah, I fly the Phoon. What of it?".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
964
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:56:00 -
[120] - Quote
They better not mess with the phoon's sig radius (320m) or overall speed. |
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2765
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:58:00 -
[121] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:They better not mess with the phoon's sig radius (320m) or overall speed.
They're destroying the Cyclone, don't count on the Phoon staying worth a damn either.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
75
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 22:36:00 -
[122] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Aralieus wrote:Maeltstome wrote: So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please.
Everything else you said didn't really matter but i will address this concern of yours. I base what I said off of what I know and apparently CCP has known for quite sometime. This has been a stark reminder as to why i don't reply to people with a tiny bit of experience and a huge chip on their shoulder based on that experience. Good luck in life.
Oh I'm sorry I must have missed the part in the tutorial where it said I needed to justify myself to some randy on the forums, would you be a gent and point that part out to me so I know better next time. If you must know I have been in and out of Eve since 03' so if my knowledge of the game is in question by you then you need to ask me more specific questions instead of assuming I know nothing when I speak on a matter I have been interested in before you even hit the 'Create' button. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 06:29:00 -
[123] - Quote
It's always funny to see peoples reactions to things becoming less brokenly overpowered. Once upon a time people were being pissy because their blatantly overpowered nanoships, nos domis or sensor damps would be merely 'pretty good' instead of 'obviously the best'.
For a very very very long time minmatar has been perhaps not brokenly overpowered but have been abnormally good. That seems slated to change. And maybe CCP will think about dialing back on some of the changes in a while if it transpires that minmatar have been made too bad. It is next to impossible to make significant balance changes without making the present 'good' ships look less good. I mean... they are balance changes. Obviously that'll affect what ships seem good or bad.
Compared to huge nerfs that have come before, these changes are mild, and in lots of cases very over-due. They have not radically overpowered or underpowered anything. Even where ships seem weaker than the average, they are not so terrible as to be totally useless, just less perfect. We are moving towards a situation where things aren't better or worse, just different. I'm sure there'll be a few eggs broken along the way, and those will get tweaked and rebalanced until its just right.
For a lot of people, eve has always been about flying the most over powered ship around and pwning all with your magnificent doom-boat. CCP wants that to be in the past. They want every ship to be a plausible choice, and for no ship to rule them all. If you can't enjoy the game without the cheat codes... Well maybe you're a terrible person who thinks that cheap easy kills against people you radically outclass make you good at eve. I'm afraid you'll have to find some other way to get your kicks, perhaps take up scamming ? |
Sinigr Shadowsong
War Tactical Groups SOLAR FLEET
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 09:31:00 -
[124] - Quote
People that compare raw DPS/EHP of ships to call for balance changes are often forget or deliberately ignore that there are much more factors.
List of some advantages that Minmatar ships in general have:
1. Only weapon system that has both selectable damage type and range on ammo. Missiles come close to it but cannot trade damage for range if needed and are more often than not cannot exploit weakness because of kinetic bonus. 2. Also works great for PvE. Minmatar ships are suited great for virtually any region and rat types that exists in game. If you think that it's not an advantage try to make missions (or complexes) against Agnels on laser boat. 3. Vast power grid on ships just because artillery exists. This leads to easiest fitting of all ships. Pre-nerf Hurricane could be fitted for 425mm + 2 Neuts with MWD and shield tank using no fittings skills beside Weapons Upgrades 4. Compare it to fitting a Harbinger. 4. Turrets that don't use capacitor at all. 5. High utility slots with cap-less weapons. Most missile ships dont have either utility slot or PG/CPU to fit something meaningful there. Meanwhile for minmatar this is a hefty bonus that forum posters tend to "forget". 6. Ability to choose between armor and shield. You are not forced to train them both since most minmatar ship are either shield-based or can be fitted with shield anyway. Those that are not suide for shield tanking at all may be painlessly replaced by another minmatar ship of same class with same weapon system. 7. Agility and speed advantage. 2-3 seconds fewer warp initiation are often a difference between lucky escape or painful ship loss. 8. Artillery with unique flavour of alfa which changes playstyle drastically.
Quote:where am I going to use medium autocannons now? Where am I going to use medium beam lasers now? |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:36:00 -
[125] - Quote
New cyclone will be pretty awesome. Single xlasb ham kiting fits are pretty much like faster podla drakes of old, with dual medium neuts more speed and agility with more ehp once the booster has run through and more cap! Even a buffer fit is reasonable well off.
Harbi gets buffed and if you know how to use it it already is one of the best bcs out there (600dps to 30km, 45k ehp, faster then a podla drake (2k with lg snaes/links) + medium neut+ more drones). Its on paper dps may not reach cane + hail lvl but due to its projection it is simply awesome (its like a kiting omen with twice the ehp and 50% more dps)!
Stabber sucks at actual pvp but its awesome at what its supposed to be, a training vessal for the cyna/vaga and it does this perfectly.
Yes minmatar ships get/got nerfed, but who cares. Angel ships still rule, they have the best cs, very good dessies, the arty wolf/thrasher. The best dictor and pretty cool bs! The new cyclone will be boss. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:42:00 -
[126] - Quote
QQQQQQQQ! My minmatar ship doesn't so obviously outclass those of every other race! I may have to depend on skill to win now!!! |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
279
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 14:00:00 -
[127] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:You know, I remember when Minmatar were considered the worst race for a long time (Rifter excepted, as until recently it was the king of frigates).
And you know what was even more interesting?
People feared fighting them.
They feared them because the people flying them were sh*t hot PVPers, who were taking ships that were noticably bad and doing serious damage with them by flying them to their strengths and coming up with interesting fits and tactics.
My point with all this?
So what if they're getting nerfed a bit, CCP have overbuffed them by lots of various direct and indirect buffs and are now fixing it, but they're still going to be very capable ships in the hands of good pilots.
The question is whether you think you can rise to the challenge like the pilots of old by proving that they're still deadly ships in the hands of a skilled pilot, or if you're going to sit and whine about losing your various advantages and proving to the world you're not the skilled pilot you make yourself out to be.
The decision is yours.
Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This is 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS. |
callyptic
Turalyon Plus
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 14:34:00 -
[128] - Quote
I personally do feel that minnie are a tad weaker now.
Before we could pick a fit with anyone.
Now we have to decide a little.
This is no different than to any other race but we have the added luxury of being able to vary our fits.
Basicly minmatar have issues against missile boats atm. Cant outrun them effectively and do not have the natural resists to tank it effectively. We can have both very decent setups for kiting Tanking and DPS. We just have to pick and hope are decision is right.
The biggest issue i have had against non minmatar pilots are TD's. There needs to be an effective counter for missiles. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2793
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:03:00 -
[129] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Hidden Snake
Genco Fatal Ascension
247
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:15:00 -
[130] - Quote
well I guess BC reballance will be more thought through before unleashing the patch. Minnies looks more weak then the other now. But kiting cyclone is one of my favorite theorycraft.
ad minnie cruisers ... well ruppie kinda sucks compare to the rest and stabber is oversized AF now, no more cruiser.
Based on CCPs conflict of interests I propose all who protest agains CCP Fozzie behaviour ad this to your sig.-á HIGH FIVE is LOW FIVE CCP.-á |
|
Hidden Snake
Genco Fatal Ascension
247
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:17:00 -
[131] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP. -Liang
utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks? Based on CCPs conflict of interests I propose all who protest agains CCP Fozzie behaviour ad this to your sig.-á HIGH FIVE is LOW FIVE CCP.-á |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
670
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:58:00 -
[132] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
Ok...
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
289
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:05:00 -
[133] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP. -Liang utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks?
No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump.
Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:20:00 -
[134] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP. -Liang utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks? No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump. Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you.
Thats cause you were fighting on station/gates, two condors could kill such a proteus. Just cause unbonused ewar isnt very usefull on SOLO cruisers/bcs/bs doesnt mean its worthless. It works very well on frigates (dual dampening/tding condor springs to mind), in fleets unbonused tds/damps can be very usefull aswella s neuts (not on your list, yet utility).
Seriously, the only place where minmatar is a bit weak atm is tech1 crusiers (and maybe t1 frigs), new cyclone will be awesome so it becomes the new (old) cane. For the rest minmatar is doing well. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
290
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:28:00 -
[135] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP. -Liang utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks? No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump. Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you. Thats cause you were fighting on station/gates, two condors could kill such a proteus. Just cause unbonused ewar isnt very usefull on SOLO cruisers/bcs/bs doesnt mean its worthless. It works very well on frigates (dual dampening/tding condor springs to mind), in fleets unbonused tds/damps can be very usefull aswella s neuts (not on your list, yet utility). Seriously, the only place where minmatar is a bit weak atm is tech1 crusiers (and maybe t1 frigs), new cyclone will be awesome so it becomes the new (old) cane. For the rest minmatar is doing well.
If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.
And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.
Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2796
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump.
Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you.
I don't see how you have no chance to kill it. Are you expecting it to be able to fire its guns without capacitor or are you expecting to run out of ammo before it dies with 250k EHP? The power of utility slots is quite powerful.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2796
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:49:00 -
[137] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.
And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.
Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.
Not even a noticeable percentage of fights happen at a station, gate, or POS.
-Liang
Ed: Also, bring your 5 warriors for my Condor. Pretty sure the fight will work out like this: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=44756 Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
482
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:58:00 -
[138] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children. Liang Nuren wrote:Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.
Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters] Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.
Thorax TTL: 72 seconds Rupture TTL: 95 seconds
Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).
-Liang
Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!" Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again? Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship. 337 dps at 24km 1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k) 30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go) cap stability [Omen, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Disruptor II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Energy Burst Aerator I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Warrior II x5 Best part? Remove the trimark and you go faster than the rupture while still doing more DPS and having better tank! I thought the omen sucked! Edit:[Omen, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Disruptor II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I Medium Energy Burst Aerator I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Warrior II x5 Now it has 378 dps at 24km 1713 speed (armor ship faster than shield rupture lol) 27k ehp cap stable And throughout the entire thread you've not posted a single fit only thrown out numbers. Quit making stuff up and post actual facts or gtfo.
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
482
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:00:00 -
[139] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children.
Sigh.. lets do this one at a time (Ignoring all the badposts you made after this one because i really cannot be arsed)
Since you seem to enjoy comparing numbers i pretty much agree that a plated omen can beat a kiting rupture (tbh i don't think the kiting rupture is a really good fit anymore) But a plated omen loses to any other armor ship. (And don't try to say you will kite them, any competent cruiser pilot will catch/escape from a omen going 20% faster than they are) And if they get on top of you you're dead because the omen cannot apply dps to other cruisers at close range without a web, it just doesn't.
Also "Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400" "cap stable" EFT is lying to you, you're not cap stable, not even close.
But i'm guess what you want is a minmatar cruiser fit that will beat your omen? A kiting one? alright
[Rupture, New Setup 1] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
Stats are irrelevant, your range with scorch is 12, you die.
What about the stabber (which truly is bad)
[Stabber, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Seriously the stats on this thing are TERRIBLE, it will still **** your omen
It will be even worse with an armor dual prop rupture (Or even stabber) both will catch you if the pilot is competent..
And both will violate the omen as you will be doing absolutely zip damage.
Omen looks good on paper, The Rupture IS good.
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:04:00 -
[140] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:
If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.
And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.
Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.
People fight everywhere (and its a fight no matter if it means anything or not). Not everyone is a huge coward and only engages in dcking/jumping range. 30km is with links, and a linked condor has no problem staying outside this while speedtanking all the drones (or killing them if they would want to) and furthermore 8and here comes what is really important), two condors both with unbonused utility damps would put the proteus locking range to 18km, so its 30km scram is hardly of any help (which would mean the condors could do it unlinked)!
Just because frigs cant gank someone before he/she can redock doesnt mean that they are useless. In fact it doesnt mean anything at all, the only real case where it would be important on a regular basis is highsec pvp, and who gives a crap about "highsec pvp". |
|
Othran
Route One
441
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:08:00 -
[141] - Quote
Frankly Minmatar has been too good for a few years, so in the normal way of things the nerfbat of doom will smack them into oblivion for a few years.
The upside is that it looks like armour tanking + speed is going to be viable again - especially if the rig changes happen.
Also the one thing about minnie is that you probably have a broad spectrum of skills anyway so cross-training isn't as painful as it could be.
tl;dr its not the end of the world |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:31:00 -
[142] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children. Sigh.. lets do this one at a time (Ignoring all the badposts you made after this one because i really cannot be arsed) Since you seem to enjoy comparing numbers i pretty much agree that a plated omen can beat a kiting rupture (tbh i don't think the kiting rupture is a really good fit anymore) But a plated omen loses to any other armor ship. (And don't try to say you will kite them, any competent cruiser pilot will catch/escape from a omen going 20% faster than they are) And if they get on top of you you're dead because the omen cannot apply dps to other cruisers at close range without a web, it just doesn't. Also "Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400" "cap stable" EFT is lying to you, you're not cap stable, not even close. But i'm guess what you want is a minmatar cruiser fit that will beat your omen? A kiting one? alright [Rupture, New Setup 1] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Stats are irrelevant, your range with scorch is 12, you die.
this doesnt really count as its a counter fit and you probably woulndt fly your ruppie this way. For all normal situations the (shield, noone fly its armor tanked as its bad at that) omen is way better then the td artyrupture or the satbber! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:36:00 -
[143] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote: this doesnt really count as its a counter fit and you probably woulndt fly your ruppie this way. For all normal situations the (shield, noone fly its armor tanked as its bad at that) omen is way better then the td artyrupture or the satbber!
I'd fly a TD Stabber. Hell it's probably the only way I'd fly a Stabber. I should have run the numbers on that Omen vs a Rupture last night, because I'm a bit skeptical that the Rupture wouldn't win/get away based on the Omen's ****** cap - even with the cap booster.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:44:00 -
[144] - Quote
Why would you do that :S, the only reason to fly a stabber is to kill frigates, if you fight cruisers your cap is going to run out and the rest of the enemy gang will probably catch you anyways, so shoudnt you use these mids to maximise your frig defence/killing abilit? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:53:00 -
[145] - Quote
I'd fly the Stabber for exactly the reasons you cite. Because they're generally true and I can probably get a few kills out of it. Also, it's fun to kick someone's ass in a ****** ship that should just roll over and die.
I'm not saying it's a *good fit*. I'm saying *I'd fly it*. Totally different.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:05:00 -
[146] - Quote
I should expound on that some more. The Stabber get's a (weak) falloff bonus which helps it apply damage at range. It's damage curve isn't too dissimilar to the Thorax's if you neglect drones, which is a fairly reasonable thing to do in a kitey fight. It's faster, more agile, has capless guns, and 4 mid slots.
These make it ideal or my purposes, if a bit weak. Yeah, it'd be like flying a paper tank, but it's not as though I don't do that all the time anyway.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
483
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:06:00 -
[147] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children. Sigh.. lets do this one at a time (Ignoring all the badposts you made after this one because i really cannot be arsed) Since you seem to enjoy comparing numbers i pretty much agree that a plated omen can beat a kiting rupture (tbh i don't think the kiting rupture is a really good fit anymore) But a plated omen loses to any other armor ship. (And don't try to say you will kite them, any competent cruiser pilot will catch/escape from a omen going 20% faster than they are) And if they get on top of you you're dead because the omen cannot apply dps to other cruisers at close range without a web, it just doesn't. Also "Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400" "cap stable" EFT is lying to you, you're not cap stable, not even close. But i'm guess what you want is a minmatar cruiser fit that will beat your omen? A kiting one? alright [Rupture, New Setup 1] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Stats are irrelevant, your range with scorch is 12, you die. this doesnt really count as its a counter fit and you probably woulndt fly your ruppie this way. For all normal situations the (shield, noone fly its armor tanked as its bad at that) omen is way better then the td artyrupture or the satbber!
I have a arty rupture just like that in my hangar? And no the TD arty rupture is better than the omen against all turret ships?
I probably wouldn't fly a stabber in general, but if i did it would be like that.
(Also if its a shield omen you don't even need the TD as the omen will have 3 ehp)
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:11:00 -
[148] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: (Also if its a shield omen you don't even need the TD as the omen will have 3 ehp)
The Shield Omen should have ~18-19K EHP, which puts it on par with the Thorax. That should give it roughly the same TTL as the Thorax (~77 sec?). However, it does considerably more damage at range while it has capacitor. Even still, I'd be honestly surprised if it had enough cap to actually kill the Rupture.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
291
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:25:00 -
[149] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.
And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.
Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.
Not even a noticeable percentage of fights happen at a station, gate, or POS.-Liang Ed: Also, bring your 5 warriors for my Condor. Pretty sure the fight will work out like this: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=44756
You seriously live in a bubble.
Just because you troll amamakes belts doesnt mean everyone does. I've spent 8 months trying to find 'different' PVP given that i started as a lo-sec pirate and then went into null-sec and then fleet warfare.
here's what i found: -Fight's in belts are 90% NPC'er ganks, noobs ganks, or elaborate traps. Oh, sometimes you kill mining ships. -0.0 you spend most of your time hunting for targets and your fights happen when you tackle them on a gate. Or if they land in a bubble. Here you face 2 scenario's. 1. You have sufficient tackle to hold them off gate, but then you are simply brawling. 2 You aren't a brawler and they can re-approach. Then the "HE'S AGGRESSED" game starts. -Losec is a nice game of "Who wants gate gun agro". -fighting -5's is again another game of "agress me cuz i dun wanna get gun agro" -PVP is generally quite ganky. Either you are ganking people or a larger gang is trying to gank you. Forcing errors out of an over-confident gang has nothing to do with ship balance. Most ships can do that. Hell, people make entire video's of themselves smashing targets who dont expect them to have a chance. Garmon/Kil2 make a career out of it.
Overall PVP is supposed to be un-consensual in EVE but the ability to frag-warp and use covops cloaks while warping to 0 makes a lie of this. I flew with the rancer guys for a month or so. The end result taught me a lot despite playing this game for years.
I have no way of succinctly or eloquently summing this up but the truth of it is: Very rarely do you need to commit to a fight and have no option to leave it unless you are heavily outnumbered. Most of the time people base arguments on situations that are rare.
Go and spend 2 months trying to fight people who fundamentally don't want to fight and you'll start to understand what i mean. You've seen a good bunch of gate camping no doubt liang, so you know that you basicalyl cant catch people who don't want to be caught and have a modicum of skill at pulling it off. Smart bombs are the only exception.
p.s.
Serious shut up with this condor argument. Smashing a terribad nano-fit arby doesnt make it suddenly OP. Situationally the ship is amazing, like all kiting ships. That's a close range ship thats fit for long range speed tanking using destructible damage. He has 3 decisions to make and made them all wrong. If this guy hadn't warped to a belt like a spaz he would have been able to jump out... reinforcing my above argument
Against a well fit proteus (to address the other condor lover) 2 perfect skilled condors will take nearly 17 minutes to kill it. in 17 minutes that guy could have moved (17*60*950)/1000=969 KM depending on how well they juggle capactior. If he rushes 2 condors on a belt/planet and cant get backup within 17 minutes from an alt or friends then he is an idiot and died because he was fighting for no reason for no reward.
But you know, this post will be skimmed and then someone will reply with a situational argument that they think counters it, maybe with a killboard link to a low IQ player who made multiple mistakes and was punished for it. Im making arguments as to why Minmatar aren't as OP as people think in a real PVP climate. If you want to argue that player skill > game balance then ill agree. But that doesn't mean you're argument is valid in a BALANCE DISCUSSION THREAD. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
291
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:27:00 -
[150] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I should expound on that some more. The Stabber get's a (weak) falloff bonus which helps it apply damage at range. It's damage curve isn't too dissimilar to the Thorax's if you neglect drones, which is a fairly reasonable thing to do in a kitey fight. It's faster, more agile, has capless guns, and 4 mid slots.
These make it ideal or my purposes, if a bit weak. Yeah, it'd be like flying a paper tank, but it's not as though I don't do that all the time anyway.
-Liang
The stabber is utterly pointless. By the time you fit the thing it's costs you 40mil, may aswell just spent more and get a fleet issue and have a higher than 10% chance of surviving 1 fight where something shoots at you. |
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:50:00 -
[151] - Quote
Because YOU cant get fights in eve doesnt mean that other people cant. Its amazingly easy to get a fight nowadays. People will engage you everywhere, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UG6a0uahTA&feature=player_embedded as an example of a proteus thats in a belt) and if you dont like liangs kill how about: http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15947338 ?
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:51:00 -
[152] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: You seriously live in a bubble.
... blah blah blah, null sec PVP only PVP, blah blah blah
Amamake is fun, but it's hardly the only place I PVP. I think you forget that we live in a FW zone and there's all kinds of cluster fuckery going on. Last night I had a solo royal rumble with a 3B ISK dual linked Tengu in my Oracle. Neither one of us ended up dying, but I consider that a piloting error on my part. I should have sacrificed the remainder of my armor to make sure he died. :)
Aside from Amamake, I also roam low sec, wormhole space, and even (gasp) null sec. I do avoid the massive blob **** you seem to get off on, but I don't really consider that entertaining.
Quote: here's what i found: -Fight's in belts are 90% NPC'er ganks, noobs ganks, or elaborate traps. Oh, sometimes you kill mining ships. -0.0 you spend most of your time hunting for targets and your fights happen when you tackle them on a gate. Or if they land in a bubble. Here you face 2 scenario's. 1. You have sufficient tackle to hold them off gate, but then you are simply brawling. 2 You aren't a brawler and they can re-approach. Then the "HE'S AGGRESSED" game starts. -Losec is a nice game of "Who wants gate gun agro". -fighting -5's is again another game of "agress me cuz i dun wanna get gun agro" -PVP is generally quite ganky. Either you are ganking people or a larger gang is trying to gank you. Forcing errors out of an over-confident gang has nothing to do with ship balance. Most ships can do that. Hell, people make entire video's of themselves smashing targets who dont expect them to have a chance. Garmon/Kil2 make a career out of it.
I think you need to go back to school about how low sec works. Here's a few comments: - Belt and planet PVP is overwhelmingly between willing gangs or people who are groping about to find out who has the bigger trap. - Gate PVP happens, but it tends mostly towards having enough DPS to hulk smash a few things before the other guys deaggress and jump. - Structure PVP (generally over PI - moons tend to invite Big Fish) happens and is a great time to get together and hulk smash each other's fleets. - FW Plex PVP is overwhelmingly between 2-5 man gangs with smallish ships.
Quote: Go and spend 2 months trying to fight people who fundamentally don't want to fight and you'll start to understand what i mean. You've seen a good bunch of gate camping no doubt liang, so you know that you basicalyl cant catch people who don't want to be caught and have a modicum of skill at pulling it off. Smart bombs are the only exception.
You apparently know nothing about US/AUS TZ Heretics or my own play style if you think I've seen lots of good gate camps. The Eurofag Heretics are famous for the Orca T3 camps, and I'm equally famous for ******* off to WH space and telling them to eat a **** over it.
You know nothing about my PVP style if you think I've seen lots of good gatecamps.
Quote: Serious shut up with this condor argument. Smashing a terribad nano-fit arby doesnt make it suddenly OP. Situationally the ship is amazing, like all kiting ships. That's a close range ship thats fit for long range speed tanking using destructible damage. He has 3 decisions to make and made them all wrong. If this guy hadn't warped to a belt like a spaz he would have been able to jump out... reinforcing my above argument
Actually that happened at a plex where he was waiting at zero for me. But feel free to think whatever you want about that. Maybe you'd like to discuss the Brutix we took down, or the Domi, or the Cyclone, or the Sleip, or the dozens and dozens and dozens of ships we've killed with undersized frigates.
You can put all this up to me being The World's Best PVPer, but we both know I'm a complete nubcake that only gate camps and might be able to bash my head against the F1 key occasionally.
Quote: Against a well fit proteus (to address the other condor lover) 2 perfect skilled condors will take nearly 17 minutes to kill it. in 17 minutes that guy could have moved (17*60*950)/1000=969 KM depending on how well they juggle capactior. If he rushes 2 condors on a belt/planet and cant get backup within 17 minutes from an alt or friends then he is an idiot and died because he was fighting for no reason for no reward.
Fighting for no reason and no reward. I think that's your problem with PVP, TBH.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
293
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:15:00 -
[153] - Quote
The only thing i do in this game is PVP. If it's financial, it's to fund PVP. Loosing ships happens, but its undeniable that most of eve are not arguing these point. most of eve doesn't give a **** about what we're talking about. most of eve only cares about not loosing ships and winning via Blobing people.
And people sitting at a plex is the height of stupidity in terms of PVP. Drop a can when you warp in to mess up cloakies and make sure you are ready to align out. Why? Because people who "love PVP" will bring more ships than you with a fitting designed to specifically win the fight before it's even started. At that point it becomes ganking, not fighting.
The best fights i get are the ones that i have the opposition convinced that they can win, then turn it around. In all honesty though - removing warp to 0 would proabably shut me up - cause i don't find waiting 2-5 hours to find someone who WANTS to PVP fun, especially when most of them have friends, links or a cyno. Nor do i find being -10 just to get fights in losec fun since i like to roam all around eve and enjoy hi-sec opportunities as well.
The only way to get reliable fights in eve is to give people to have something to fight for - solo pilots can move with relative safety through any non-bubbled hi, low or null sec area. They don't have to defend themself or have friends defend them. If i joined a null-sec corp within the next 10 minutes. I could have a battleship, several smaller ships and plenty of fitting and MYSELF in their hom system with an hour. You pod yourself to a station and a jump freightor fills up and brings every over in minutes.
CCP are slowly removing every reason to even be IN SPACE doing things. Everything used to be a danger and, as such, created a need for combat readiness at all times (Hell, i used to rat in PVP fit because in a slow ship friendly space could become unfriendly in the time it took to approach a gate). This fueled Eve's PVP. It simply feels like a shadow of it's former self now.
P.s.
Tuskers KB link - so you did what? baited a trap with a plated neut domi then zerg rushed them in hookbills? (who - by the way - used missiles, like a condor... but otherwise share no similarity) |
Carlos Jaegar
Nulli-Secundus
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:22:00 -
[154] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Carlos Jaegar wrote:I actually really like the new Cyclone, looking forward to the patch. Any reason besides just feelings? From actually flying it on Sisi but I guess, given the nature of you OP, you wouldn't care to listen so, carry on with rant...
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:22:00 -
[155] - Quote
Domi was full gun fit, and no it only is on our side because it shot at the thorax, otherwise we were fighting it aswell, yet due to lots of lighdrones it forced us out of scram range and mjded away.
(hookbill/condor are both fast k+¡ting frigates, mwd bill fit need a mid to be capstable and thus has two free midslots, condor is capstable as it is, and has two spare midslots)
And no, as i see it you are just bad at getting fights! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:26:00 -
[156] - Quote
I have no idea why you can't seem to find anyone to fight, but it might have something to do with the fact you think a PVP fit arbitrator sitting at zero on a plex warpin in FW space is someone PVEing...
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
293
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:27:00 -
[157] - Quote
I think eve-is-easy is a bit of an understatement. I think eve is braindead mostly :/
I used to get into all sorts of sh*t a few years back - including catching battleships on gates and getting into some serious fights using only an interceptor.
You honestly think you get more action these days? Remember pre warp-to-0 we had about 25k average concurrent users. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
293
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:28:00 -
[158] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I have no idea why you can't seem to find anyone to fight, but it might have something to do with the fact you think a PVP fit arbitrator sitting at zero on a plex warpin in FW space is someone PVEing...
-Liang
No i think it's a guy with a terrible idea for a fit that doesn't understand "kiting frigate on D-Scan" = death to his light buffer fit. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:32:00 -
[159] - Quote
he would have killed liang if he was solo (and unlinked), and if the arby had more then 5 light drones. (cant kill them fast enough if they are bonused) and not all condors are kitefit.
You can get lots of gfs atm (like the vid i posted). If you cant your doing it wrong. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:34:00 -
[160] - Quote
It's so weird to be on the same side of an argument as Tuskers...
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
293
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:40:00 -
[161] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It's so weird to be on the same side of an argument as Tuskers...
-Liang
Maybe that's telling you something... |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:41:00 -
[162] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:It's so weird to be on the same side of an argument as Tuskers...
-Liang Maybe that's telling you something...
That you're extra bad at finding fights?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
293
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:50:00 -
[163] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:It's so weird to be on the same side of an argument as Tuskers...
-Liang Maybe that's telling you something... That you're extra bad at finding fights? -Liang
That after page 2/3 of any thread you objective is to disagree with everything said by anyone anywhere :/ ? this thread has gone so OT that i see a lock incoming.
I will concede slightly and add: How easy is it to find fights without dropping sec status or loosing the ability to go to an 1 or more of the empires' space without being targeted by police? Yea i have alt's. But should i NEED them to get fights on another character and not loose empire access? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2801
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:53:00 -
[164] - Quote
It's exceedingly easy. Anywhere in Minnie/Amarr FW space works, and I hear Caldari/Gallente FW space works fine as well. Jump into system and warp somewhere. Or attack whatever idiot is gate camping today.
They're so easy to get that... it's ... it's almost hard to avoid fights
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:57:00 -
[165] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:It's so weird to be on the same side of an argument as Tuskers...
-Liang Maybe that's telling you something... That you're extra bad at finding fights? -Liang That after page 2/3 of any thread you objective is to disagree with everything said by anyone anywhere :/ ? this thread has gone so OT that i see a lock incoming. I will concede slightly and add: How easy is it to find fights without dropping sec status or loosing the ability to go to an 1 or more of the empires' space without being targeted by police? Yea i have alt's. But should i NEED them to get fights on another character and not loose empire access?
Pvp in null (can get fights there, but its way harder then in low) or go anti pie, also i think if you dont pod you cant get to more then -5, and they changed it so that if your sec status is above that you can go everywhere in empire
And yes, imo if you want to fight you should NEED alts (or a good logistic wing) to pvp, -10 for life.
Edit: Yes, some regions of lowsec can be empty, minmatar/amarr space is quite busy (full of retards), gallente/cal space is full aswell but the pirates/bears there usually are way better at what they do so its a harder.
Systems to look for a fight, heyd->tama (abune route), black rise in general, verge vendor, metropolis, general minmatar/amarr warfront. hagilur pocket. Systems to avoid due to massive faggotry: Oms,Tama, (sometimes) heyd, amamake,rancer. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
294
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:21:00 -
[166] - Quote
Still that involves sec status dropping :/ If i can go -5.0 and no drop below it, fantastic. Basically 1 NPC kill and im not a free target. But do you have any links to this? My last trip to -10 was a massive pod-goo infested daydream. At no point did i try to enter hi-sec . |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2803
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:22:00 -
[167] - Quote
You don't generally have to fire the first shot - at least on the Minnie/Amarr side of things. There's more than enough pirate FW corps that it's not a big deal.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
294
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:24:00 -
[168] - Quote
p.s.
It kinda sounds like your both saying that common sense makes you immune to PVP...
I miss jumping in to a system and blind warping to the station to see who panicked and tried to dock up.... then died. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2804
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:26:00 -
[169] - Quote
No, we're saying that FW low sec is filled with people who just want to blow **** up while non-FW low sec and all of null sec is filled with carebears who want to hide at the first sight of someone who *MIGHT* be hostile. Null sec at least has the benefit that there are gate camps to bust.
At least, that's what I'm saying.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2804
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:27:00 -
[170] - Quote
Oh - another way to get great fights is to find an occupied wormhole and put up a medium/large ****/deathstar. If they don't immediately respond, siege their POS. Double props if they have caps. :D
-Liang
Ed: BTW, this whole "How to get a fight" thing is pretty intrinsically tied with why I would fly that "******" "obsolete" "useless" Stabber. It's why I flew Cyclones and Harpies. It's why I fly Condors and Executioners. Because people think they can kill me. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:31:00 -
[171] - Quote
Pretty much, fw space is full of people who want to fight, some other lowsec areas are aswell. Other then that you must be willing to fight the blob/against the odds or be lucky to get a equal fight. Gal/cal space is way harder to pvp in due to better pie corps and thus better fw corps (minmatar/amarr has heretics who mostly stay in ama and a few small ones, gal cal has snuff/shadow/balex and tons of other good pirating corps (russians,ze germans...) ) |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
295
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:33:00 -
[172] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Oh - another way to get great fights is to find an occupied wormhole and put up a medium/large ****/deathstar. If they don't immediately respond, siege their POS. Double props if they have caps. :D
-Liang
Ed: BTW, this whole "How to get a fight" thing is pretty intrinsically tied with why I would fly that "******" "obsolete" "useless" Stabber. It's why I flew Cyclones and Harpies. It's why I fly Condors and Executioners. Because people think they can kill me.
Actually i find the stabber dies too easily against people who WANT to fight. It's good at killing people trying to AVOID a fight. When people are intelligenly fit and fight back, stabber struggles... Thorax can pump out hideous DPS for its hull size to compensate for lack of tank. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
296
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:36:00 -
[173] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Pretty much, fw space is full of people who want to fight, some other lowsec areas are aswell. Other then that you must be willing to fight the blob/against the odds or be lucky to get a equal fight. Gal/cal space is way harder to pvp in due to better pie corps and thus better fw corps (minmatar/amarr has heretics who mostly stay in ama and a few small ones, gal cal has snuff/shadow/balex and tons of other good pirating corps (russians,ze germans...) )
Actually fitting some ECCM really f*cks those caldari guys up. Had plenty of times they try to spring the 'scorpion/falcon trap' and end up drinking soup through a straw cause their pro-dominent tactic of Tier3 BC's and ECM fell on it ass :p
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 20:43:00 -
[174] - Quote
Didnt mean it ecm wise, just in general ability. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
296
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:00:00 -
[175] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Didnt mean it ecm wise, just in general ability.
Oh no i get it - but generally organisation leads to predictability. Sometimes a guy doing the wrong thing makes you mess up and give away a fight, specially in smaller ships where you have less EHP to adapt.
EDIT&
I also wanst referring to caldari as a race, i mean in tat area its a popular strategy. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2808
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:04:00 -
[176] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Oh - another way to get great fights is to find an occupied wormhole and put up a medium/large ****/deathstar. If they don't immediately respond, siege their POS. Double props if they have caps. :D
-Liang
Ed: BTW, this whole "How to get a fight" thing is pretty intrinsically tied with why I would fly that "******" "obsolete" "useless" Stabber. It's why I flew Cyclones and Harpies. It's why I fly Condors and Executioners. Because people think they can kill me. Actually i find the stabber dies too easily against people who WANT to fight. It's good at killing people trying to AVOID a fight. When people are intelligenly fit and fight back, stabber struggles... Thorax can pump out hideous DPS for its hull size to compensate for lack of tank.
Sure, but the Thorax isn't (or shouldn't be) a kiting ship. The Stabber works better for this.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
974
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:09:00 -
[177] - Quote
Some wonderful soul told the Heretics how busy the systems around Amamake where with Minmatar/Amarr FW.
Spaceballs- there goes the planet! |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
142
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:11:00 -
[178] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'd fly a TD Stabber. Hell it's probably the only way I'd fly a Stabber. I should have run the numbers on that Omen vs a Rupture last night, because I'm a bit skeptical that the Rupture wouldn't win/get away based on the Omen's ****** cap - even with the cap booster.
-Liang
Not the only way, but aye, Stabby with TD is awesome. It may not be as straightforward as your usual Omen or Caracal and if something looks at it in a funny way, it'll fall apart, but damn, that ship is fun to fly, like a supersized frigate :) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2809
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:17:00 -
[179] - Quote
The funny thing is that everyone always complains about Heretics Orca camping or Heretics using links or Heretics using pirate implants or... well, whatever the **** it is that we're up to these days. But it's not like there aren't FW links up in every FW system as far out as Eszur.
I guess it's only faggotry if Heretics do it.
-Liang
Ed: I shouldn't complain. Because whatever faggotry I can get up to to let me engage outnumbered is exactly what I'm going to do. And I expect the same of everyone else - otherwise it wouldn't be very fun. :) Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:27:00 -
[180] - Quote
No it isnt the link usage or the implants, its that you guys with a few exceptions never leave amamake, and have perma links running in pos. Thus you guys dont really fight the odds muchat least it appears this way), and your orca camps are pretty famous. It can be that some of you are pretty awesome soloers but the general opinion is heretics=orca camping + blobbing everyone in amamake with links/implants. I personally have no real idea (whenever i went to amamake everyone in space docked and never came out again) if that is true or not. For most people heretics are the same as negten and tundragon.
It may be unjust but its the way it is. |
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
974
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:28:00 -
[181] - Quote
Links will correct themselves soon enough. Just a playful poke. Karl in particular has taken to me the same way the croc took to Cpt. Hook. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2811
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:30:00 -
[182] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Links will correct themselves soon enough. Just a playful poke. Karl in particular has taken to me the same way the croc took to Cpt. Hook.
I can't wait for links to eat a big fat nerf. And I don't mean the off grid links, because getting links on grid is not that hard. AAAALLLLLLL links need to eat a giant ******* nerf.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:53:00 -
[183] - Quote
Links have counters, they are called virtues!
(just force them out of the pos and away from stations/gates/pos) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2812
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:55:00 -
[184] - Quote
Yes, let's move to the next door system where they join the next link fleet. -_- I don't think people really understand how out of control links can be around Amamake (and not just IN Amamake or by Heretics).
-Liang
Ed: But it's ok because everyone in Amarr/Minnie space is a total nublet that doesn't know how to PVP or have any SP. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
974
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 22:11:00 -
[185] - Quote
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 22:11:00 -
[186] - Quote
True, some of my corp m8s dont like this area at all, cause of links beeing everywhere. Whenever i go there tho its usually a slaughter of people throwing expensive stuff at me and beeing quite bad. (people with links who arent in a pos usually mean a free tech3 killmail) |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
297
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 22:39:00 -
[187] - Quote
So this conversation is steering away from "PVP" and into "pay 2 win". links vs non-links is abouta s close to ganking as you can get outside a blob.
Are you trying to convince people to come fight or leave and not bother? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2814
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:01:00 -
[188] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:So this conversation is steering away from "PVP" and into "pay 2 win". links vs non-links is abouta s close to ganking as you can get outside a blob.
Are you trying to convince people to come fight or leave and not bother?
You don't even have the first clue what pay to win means if you think Eve is anything of the sort. As to links vs non links being a gank: not really. I think it depends a lot on what's going on and what's being fielded. A T1 frig is still a T1 frig, even if it's linked.
I honestly don't know how you ever get a fight if you're afraid to ever engage someone on the chance they might have a trap, blob, links, or whatever floating around. Ohwai---
-Liang
Including you!!! ;-) Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
974
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:06:00 -
[189] - Quote
Now now- I have no issues finding a fight or getting into one. I'm doing decently this month even if my computer is in the shop. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
486
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:09:00 -
[190] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote: (Also if its a shield omen you don't even need the TD as the omen will have 3 ehp)
The Shield Omen should have ~18-19K EHP, which puts it on par with the Thorax. That should give it roughly the same TTL as the Thorax (~77 sec?). However, it does considerably more damage at range while it has capacitor. Even still, I'd be honestly surprised if it had enough cap to actually kill the Rupture. -Liang
Uhm, i never ONCE condoned the use of thoraxes for kiting <.< I was saying that a dual LSE arty rupture would violate a shield omen. |
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:24:00 -
[191] - Quote
You cant fit a real duallse arty rupture tho, not enough pg. So you have to gimp on either dps or tank which means the omen should usually win. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:26:00 -
[192] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:New cyclone will be pretty awesome. Single xlasb ham kiting fits are pretty much like faster podla drakes of old, with dual medium neuts more speed and agility with more ehp once the booster has run through and more cap! Even a buffer fit is reasonable well off.
Harbi gets buffed and if you know how to use it it already is one of the best bcs out there (600dps to 30km, 45k ehp, faster then a podla drake (2k with lg snaes/links) + medium neut+ more drones). Its on paper dps may not reach cane + hail lvl but due to its projection it is simply awesome (its like a kiting omen with twice the ehp and 50% more dps)!
Stabber sucks at actual pvp but its awesome at what its supposed to be, a training vessal for the cyna/vaga and it does this perfectly.
Yes minmatar ships get/got nerfed, but who cares. Angel ships still rule, they have the best cs, very good dessies, the arty wolf/thrasher. The best dictor and pretty cool bs! The new cyclone will be boss.
Yeah, you are missing the part where the cyclone has two less missile launchers than the "old podla drakes". Its DPS is going to be barely higher than a caracal. I will miss my cyclones with guns on them. If I wanted to use missiles as a primary weapon I'd fly caldari.
The new cyclone won't be what you expect it to be, minmatar might have "cool" BS but that doesn't make them good. The CS are going to also be balanced soon, so don't expect them to be the best anymore.
Yes harb is going to be a beast (its already great), I think I heard a few people say they are "destroying the harb", rofl noobs.
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:34:00 -
[193] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children. Sigh.. lets do this one at a time (Ignoring all the badposts you made after this one because i really cannot be arsed) Since you seem to enjoy comparing numbers i pretty much agree that a plated omen can beat a kiting rupture (tbh i don't think the kiting rupture is a really good fit anymore) But a plated omen loses to any other armor ship. (And don't try to say you will kite them, any competent cruiser pilot will catch/escape from a omen going 20% faster than they are) And if they get on top of you you're dead because the omen cannot apply dps to other cruisers at close range without a web, it just doesn't. Also "Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400" "cap stable" EFT is lying to you, you're not cap stable, not even close. But i'm guess what you want is a minmatar cruiser fit that will beat your omen? A kiting one? alright [Rupture, New Setup 1] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Stats are irrelevant, your range with scorch is 12, you die. What about the stabber (which truly is bad) [Stabber, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Seriously the stats on this thing are TERRIBLE, it will still **** your omen It will be even worse with an armor dual prop rupture (Or even stabber) both will catch you if the pilot is competent.. And both will violate the omen as you will be doing absolutely zip damage. Omen looks good on paper, The Rupture IS good.
rofl. And you accuse me of badposting?
The only thing you proved is that TD is good.
Put that TD on another ship and it will do the same thing.
Rupture still stinks. Do you know my solution to your TD rupture? Just fly away in your armor omen and warp off. Because the rupture is so damn slow even 1600mm armor tanked ships can escape. (And with the new armor buffs, expect my armor omen to be even faster.) |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:37:00 -
[194] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:New cyclone will be pretty awesome. Single xlasb ham kiting fits are pretty much like faster podla drakes of old, with dual medium neuts more speed and agility with more ehp once the booster has run through and more cap! Even a buffer fit is reasonable well off.
Harbi gets buffed and if you know how to use it it already is one of the best bcs out there (600dps to 30km, 45k ehp, faster then a podla drake (2k with lg snaes/links) + medium neut+ more drones). Its on paper dps may not reach cane + hail lvl but due to its projection it is simply awesome (its like a kiting omen with twice the ehp and 50% more dps)!
Stabber sucks at actual pvp but its awesome at what its supposed to be, a training vessal for the cyna/vaga and it does this perfectly.
Yes minmatar ships get/got nerfed, but who cares. Angel ships still rule, they have the best cs, very good dessies, the arty wolf/thrasher. The best dictor and pretty cool bs! The new cyclone will be boss. Yeah, you are missing the part where the cyclone has two less missile launchers than the "old podla drakes". Its DPS is going to be barely higher than a caracal. I will miss my cyclones with guns on them. If I wanted to use missiles as a primary weapon I'd fly caldari. The new cyclone won't be what you expect it to be, minmatar might have "cool" BS but that doesn't make them good. The CS are going to also be balanced soon, so don't expect them to be the best anymore. Yes harb is going to be a beast (its already great), I think I heard a few people say they are "destroying the harb", rofl noobs.
It gets more drone bays tho and damage selction, it does exactly as much dps as a current drake with a buffer fit
[NEW Cyclone, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Valkyrie II x5
, having 10k ehp less then a podla drake, while beeing faster, more agile and having dual medium neuts. or it does 40dps less then the current podla drake but has way more hp (xlasb fit)
[NEW Cyclone, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Valkyrie II x5
(around 66k ehp in total after the asb cyled through) |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:43:00 -
[195] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
It gets more drone bays tho and damage selction, it does exactly as much dps as a current drake with a buffer fit
[NEW Cyclone, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Valkyrie II x5
, having 10k ehp less then a podla drake, while beeing faster, more agile and having dual medium neuts. or it does 40dps less then the current podla drake but has way more hp (xlasb fit)
[NEW Cyclone, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Valkyrie II x5
(around 66k ehp in total after the asb cyled through)
What are you using to get these setups? |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:47:00 -
[196] - Quote
Othran wrote:Frankly Minmatar has been too good for a few years, so in the normal way of things the nerfbat of doom will smack them into oblivion for a few years.
The upside is that it looks like armour tanking + speed is going to be viable again - especially if the rig changes happen.
Also the one thing about minnie is that you probably have a broad spectrum of skills anyway so cross-training isn't as painful as it could be.
tl;dr its not the end of the world
Giving different races turns to be good is horrible game design philosophy and hurts the long term health of the game.
Why do you think a game like SC:Brood War was so great? It has three completely different races, and they were extremely well balanced. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:49:00 -
[197] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:
It gets more drone bays tho and damage selction, it does exactly as much dps as a current drake with a buffer fit
[NEW Cyclone, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Valkyrie II x5
, having 10k ehp less then a podla drake, while beeing faster, more agile and having dual medium neuts. or it does 40dps less then the current podla drake but has way more hp (xlasb fit)
[NEW Cyclone, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Valkyrie II x5
(around 66k ehp in total after the asb cyled through)
What are you using to get these setups?
eft |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:51:00 -
[198] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
eft
offtopic but how did you get the new ship changes to work for it? Was there a new release?
I'd like to examine this new cyclone so I can tell you why it sucks XD. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:58:00 -
[199] - Quote
Namamai;675411 wrote: About two hours ahead of you :P Install over EFT 2.17.1. You guys know the drill.
[url]http://www.bittervet.com/eve/eftfiles/RetriBCs_08jan2013_Append.zip[/url] [url]http://www.bittervet.com/eve/eftfiles/RetriBCs_08jan2013_Replace.zip[/url]
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 00:03:00 -
[200] - Quote
Ty |
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 01:00:00 -
[201] - Quote
Ok, These cyclones do look okay... They have a little bit low DPS. And to be used at full potential they will need skirmish links which are probably going to have to be on-grid by the time these changes come through.
I had a laugh and agreed with what Suitonia said: [quote[Hurricane: More 'subtle' nerfs. Seems like CCP want to nerf it without all the retards noticing"[/quote]
But what I'm worried about is the 120k ehp prophecy that does ~700 dps. The 50k ehp Myrm that does 1115 dps
falling alseep, will write more later. |
wmpza1
The Warp Core Stabilizers Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 07:20:00 -
[202] - Quote
I think the cruiser rebalancing was for the most part really well done and has made the field a lot more level for everyone . The cane rebalance will hurt me quite a bit as its one of my favorite ships but I can understand why they are doing it.
Been playing with the new EFT builds . Is it my imagination or is the prophecy possibly good now ? My crappy eft fu results for the neut flavor gives you over 100k ehp / 300dps / +- 80% resists and damage variant seems more or less over 65k ehp / 600+dps / +- 80% resists ? |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
670
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 07:59:00 -
[203] - Quote
wmpza1 wrote:I think the cruiser rebalancing was for the most part really well done and has made the field a lot more level for everyone . The cane nerf/rebalance will hurt me quite a bit as its one of my favorite ships but I can understand why they are doing it.
Been playing with the new EFT builds . Is it my imagination or is the prophecy possibly good now ? My crappy eft fu results for the neut flavor gives you over 100k ehp / 300dps / +- 80% resists and damage variant seems more or less over 65k ehp / 600+dps / +- 80% resists ?
Apart from being slow as a brick I'd say the proph is looking to be quite good (too good) in many situations, both pve as pvp although drone boats are still limited in pvp ofcourse. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
302
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 12:14:00 -
[204] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:wmpza1 wrote:I think the cruiser rebalancing was for the most part really well done and has made the field a lot more level for everyone . The cane nerf/rebalance will hurt me quite a bit as its one of my favorite ships but I can understand why they are doing it.
Been playing with the new EFT builds . Is it my imagination or is the prophecy possibly good now ? My crappy eft fu results for the neut flavor gives you over 100k ehp / 300dps / +- 80% resists and damage variant seems more or less over 65k ehp / 600+dps / +- 80% resists ? Apart from being slow as a brick I'd say the proph is looking to be quite good (too good) in many situations, both pve as pvp although drone boats are still limited in pvp ofcourse.
If it gets a 4th mid i#ll be slapping a scan res scripted damp on it. Excellent way to protect drones. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
489
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 12:19:00 -
[205] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:wmpza1 wrote:I think the cruiser rebalancing was for the most part really well done and has made the field a lot more level for everyone . The cane nerf/rebalance will hurt me quite a bit as its one of my favorite ships but I can understand why they are doing it.
Been playing with the new EFT builds . Is it my imagination or is the prophecy possibly good now ? My crappy eft fu results for the neut flavor gives you over 100k ehp / 300dps / +- 80% resists and damage variant seems more or less over 65k ehp / 600+dps / +- 80% resists ? Apart from being slow as a brick I'd say the proph is looking to be quite good (too good) in many situations, both pve as pvp although drone boats are still limited in pvp ofcourse.
the prophecy will be quite good.
its only real drawbacks being that is slow as a brick through honey. Thus it will have a hard time catching anything that doesn't want to fight it and the dps it deals out is still relatively low (Post all the 2 ogre 2 hammer 1 goblin numbers you want, ogres are terrible) |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
78
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 14:39:00 -
[206] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:wmpza1 wrote:I think the cruiser rebalancing was for the most part really well done and has made the field a lot more level for everyone . The cane nerf/rebalance will hurt me quite a bit as its one of my favorite ships but I can understand why they are doing it.
Been playing with the new EFT builds . Is it my imagination or is the prophecy possibly good now ? My crappy eft fu results for the neut flavor gives you over 100k ehp / 300dps / +- 80% resists and damage variant seems more or less over 65k ehp / 600+dps / +- 80% resists ? Apart from being slow as a brick I'd say the proph is looking to be quite good (too good) in many situations, both pve as pvp although drone boats are still limited in pvp ofcourse.
Drones are also limited in PVE from what I understand (aggro), but yes the new prophecy will be a pain train in the right situations now compared to before it just plain didnt cut it. I was playing around with Harb on test server last night...that thing is a beast
Edit: Just found the KM's of a small fight I had with 2xThorax and a Omen with the new Harb shield fitted. http://true-sansha.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=108853 http://true-sansha.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=108852 http://true-sansha.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=108851 Oderint Dum Metuant |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 16:07:00 -
[207] - Quote
Good thing somebody noticed. Too many ship fanboys in here that want their respective races to become OP and don't realize that isn't what balance means.
|
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
754
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 00:35:00 -
[208] - Quote
Someone took away your "I Win" button. *dirge* EvE Forum Bingo |
Noisrevbus
386
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 01:41:00 -
[209] - Quote
The second or third age of the croissant-gargling Gallente is here, rejoice!
You brought this upon yourselves, don't tell me i didn't try to stop you . |
Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
124
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 01:43:00 -
[210] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Good thing somebody noticed. Too many ship fanboys in here that want their respective races to become OP and don't realize that isn't what balance means.
T1 Guns, T1 mids, T1 drones. One could assume that the pilot had only low-moderate skills.
T1 Guns, but everything else T2. Oh yeah, and only a medium shield extender... on a cruiser.
T1 guns, and combined with the fact that he's the only one without drones on his KM means to me that he's the only one who remembered to launch drones, or who didn't call them back the moment they started taking damage.
All of those fits should have been able to T2 almost everything (if not everything, in the case of the Omen) with good fitting skills, just using the modules that were on there.
So we can assume the pilots were low SP, or at least only moderate SP.
I also notice that they only had close range ammo. The shield Harb is great for kiting at 20-30 KM with Scorch, picking enemies apart. They could probably barely touch you at that range.
And the only Harb loss I could find on the KB happened to be in the same system, and it was pimped with faction and deadspace mods, not to mention you actually had T2 guns (something none of them had, definite SP advantage in the fight). The Harb in question I don't think so much that this points out how OP the harb is, as how easy it is to crunch up newbs by using pimp fitted ships where you risk absolutely nothing on SiSi.
Also, quick question for Aralieus: did you have links? Those would also have skewed things further in your direction. You already had an advantage due to skills, ship (BC vs cruisers), and tactics whereas the only thing they had going for them was numbers.
I'm not shouting to all the world that the Harbinger is terrible, I'm just saying that this does nothing to prove that the Harbinger is overpowered. |
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
982
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 01:44:00 -
[211] - Quote
I was thinking about the poor old Rupture today as well as the new Armor changes and put this together:
High: Dual 180 AC II x 4 Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator Mid: Experimental MWD Medium Cap Booster II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler Low: Medium Ancillary Armor Repper 800mm Rolled Tungsten Plate EANM II DC II Gyro II Rigs: Medium ACR Armor nano pump Armor nanobot accelerator
450 DPS. 19k EHP but you inject 5400 armor over 52 seconds. The 1600mm plated, trimarked Rupture has 625 more overall armor HP then those two amounts added together but the fit above should move much more quickly and has a medium neut. the ship should survive long enough for the neut to shut down a Moa or Maller. The Vexor is another animal but most cruisers struggle against that monster in brawl |
Wivabel
Exanimo Inc Unclaimed.
102
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 02:13:00 -
[212] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Links will correct themselves soon enough. Just a playful poke. Karl in particular has taken to me the same way the croc took to Cpt. Hook. I can't wait for links to eat a big fat nerf. And I don't mean the off grid links, because getting links on grid is not that hard. AAAALLLLLLL links need to eat a giant ******* nerf. -Liang
2nd Down with Links all of em
Wiv To be a part of future EVE intrigue check us out. Sov in the south. Small gang pew is what we do when we are-ánot defending our space.-á
Join "Exan-áRecruitment"-áin game |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
80
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 04:02:00 -
[213] - Quote
Also, quick question for Aralieus: did you have links?
No links, tbh I have never used them on that server and I can't wait till the death of OGB's everywhere
In regards to that 'pimped' harby, your correct I would never fly that on Tranq and it's not the fit I used for those kills but it was identical just all T2 Oderint Dum Metuant |
Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
124
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 06:03:00 -
[214] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Also, quick question for Aralieus: did you have links?
No links, tbh I have never used them on that server and I can't wait till the death of OGB's everywhere
Good man, I can't wait until that time myself
Aralieus wrote: In regards to that 'pimped' harby, your correct I would never fly that on Tranq and it's not the fit I used for those kills but it was identical just all T2
Fair enough. And don't think I'm bashing on you for picking on newbs. Just making a case for that it's not so much that the Harby is OMGWTFBBQOP as it was a case of you being a skilled pilot, them not being as skilled, you having high SP, and them not. Take that how you want to, I'm just saying that you had a couple advantages that compensated for their numbers. |
Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians Iberians.
37
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 09:21:00 -
[215] - Quote
So now, instead of just ROFLPWNing any other ship in the game, Minmatar ships are balanced.
And aside from delicious tears and toddler rage... how in HELL is that a bad thing for this game?
I'm mostly a caldari pilot with both hybrid and missile skills, and I love the possibility of flying a condor, or a merlin, or a kestrel, or a caracal, or a Moa, instead of just "Fly a rifter / stabber / rupture or die helplessly"
Now every ship is useful, and you can fly what you want, instead of what they force you to (if you want to survive an engagement) |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
81
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:17:00 -
[216] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Aralieus wrote:Also, quick question for Aralieus: did you have links?
No links, tbh I have never used them on that server and I can't wait till the death of OGB's everywhere
Good man, I can't wait until that time myself Aralieus wrote: In regards to that 'pimped' harby, your correct I would never fly that on Tranq and it's not the fit I used for those kills but it was identical just all T2
Fair enough. And don't think I'm bashing on you for picking on newbs. Just making a case for that it's not so much that the Harby is OMGWTFBBQOP as it was a case of you being a skilled pilot, them not being as skilled, you having high SP, and them not. Take that how you want to, I'm just saying that you had a couple advantages that compensated for their numbers.
I understand what you were saying and I agree, the new Harb is what the old Harb should have been tho.
Here is the fit I used:
[Harbinger, x13] Power Diagnostic System II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I Medium Energy Burst Aerator I
Valkyrie II x5 EC-300 x5
I thought I recorded that fight but I guess not, I do have a clip of another one that I used the same tactics for however:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMd7_GZyRyk
Oderint Dum Metuant |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:52:00 -
[217] - Quote
Dont use an invul, cap if life and dual lse is better anyways. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
495
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:58:00 -
[218] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Dont use an invul, cap if life and dual lse is better anyways.
I highly doubt it has the grid for that.
Although it might since the fittings on LSE's are bullshit. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 18:00:00 -
[219] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Dont use an invul, cap if life and dual lse is better anyways. I highly doubt it has the grid for that. Although it might since the fittings on LSE's are bullshit.
twin regoliths or if you are down for paying for faction LSE's they have better fitting. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 22:45:00 -
[220] - Quote
Otrebla Utrigas wrote:So now, instead of just ROFLPWNing any other ship in the game, Minmatar ships are balanced.
And aside from delicious tears and toddler rage... how in HELL is that a bad thing for this game?
I'm mostly a caldari pilot with both hybrid and missile skills, and I love the possibility of flying a condor, or a merlin, or a kestrel, or a caracal, or a Moa, instead of just "Fly a rifter / stabber / rupture or die helplessly"
Now every ship is useful, and you can fly what you want, instead of what they force you to (if you want to survive an engagement)
rofl. Get a clue and read the thread maybe before you post crap. |
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
996
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 22:48:00 -
[221] - Quote
Shield Auto Rupture: 511 dps, 28.7k EHP (warp disruptor II, medium neut), 511*28.7 = 14,665 Shield Blaster Thorax: 680 dps, 21.3k EHP (faint warp disruptor) 680*21.3 = 14,484
Rupture wins on EHP * DPS. Has a neut which outranges the heavy nuetron blasters. Longer point range (due to fittings requirements).
Once Rupture puts nuet on Thorax, it will cap it out in 35 seconds. 511*35 = 17,885 EHP - which means Thorax will cap out before fight is over.
Rupture can also hit into the tanking hole of the Thorax.
Etc..
Conclusion: Shield Rupture > Shield Thorax. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 22:59:00 -
[222] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Shield Auto Rupture: 511 dps, 28.7k EHP (warp disruptor II, medium neut), 511*28.7 = 14,665 Shield Blaster Thorax: 680 dps, 21.3k EHP (faint warp disruptor) 680*21.3 = 14,484
Rupture wins on EHP * DPS. Has a neut which outranges the heavy nuetron blasters. Longer point range (due to fittings requirements).
Once Rupture puts nuet on Thorax, it will cap it out in 35 seconds. 511*35 = 17,885 EHP - which means Thorax will cap out before fight is over.
Rupture can also hit into the tanking hole of the Thorax.
Etc..
Conclusion: Shield Rupture > Shield Thorax.
Omg, My eyes hurt.
The original argument was that a rupture isn't a good kiting ship, not that it can't brawl with a thorax. Once you try to fit a rupture to kite with speed mods it becomes extremely weaker and dies.
Once you fit a rupture to brawl then obviously it will win vs a kiting ship. But it also loses to all the other races brawling ships... badly I might admit. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2832
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 23:18:00 -
[223] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shield Auto Rupture: 511 dps, 28.7k EHP (warp disruptor II, medium neut), 511*28.7 = 14,665 Shield Blaster Thorax: 680 dps, 21.3k EHP (faint warp disruptor) 680*21.3 = 14,484
Rupture wins on EHP * DPS. Has a neut which outranges the heavy nuetron blasters. Longer point range (due to fittings requirements).
Once Rupture puts nuet on Thorax, it will cap it out in 35 seconds. 511*35 = 17,885 EHP - which means Thorax will cap out before fight is over.
Rupture can also hit into the tanking hole of the Thorax.
Etc..
Conclusion: Shield Rupture > Shield Thorax. Omg, My eyes hurt. The original argument was that a rupture isn't a good kiting ship, not that it can't brawl with a thorax. Once you try to fit a rupture to kite with speed mods it becomes extremely weaker and dies. Once you fit a rupture to brawl then obviously it will win vs a kiting ship. But it also loses to all the other races brawling ships... badly I might admit.
It was claimed that the Thorax both brawled and kited better than the Rupture. Both have been shown to be false.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
996
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 00:19:00 -
[224] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It was claimed that the Thorax both brawled and kited better than the Rupture. Both have been shown to be false.-Liang Yeah if you're gonna fly shield, then Rupture > Thorax. It used to be Shield blaster Thorax > Shield autocannon Rupture because of ec-600 drones, but that sensor strength advantage has gone away.
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 00:40:00 -
[225] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shield Auto Rupture: 511 dps, 28.7k EHP (warp disruptor II, medium neut), 511*28.7 = 14,665 Shield Blaster Thorax: 680 dps, 21.3k EHP (faint warp disruptor) 680*21.3 = 14,484
Rupture wins on EHP * DPS. Has a neut which outranges the heavy nuetron blasters. Longer point range (due to fittings requirements).
Once Rupture puts nuet on Thorax, it will cap it out in 35 seconds. 511*35 = 17,885 EHP - which means Thorax will cap out before fight is over.
Rupture can also hit into the tanking hole of the Thorax.
Etc..
Conclusion: Shield Rupture > Shield Thorax. Omg, My eyes hurt. The original argument was that a rupture isn't a good kiting ship, not that it can't brawl with a thorax. Once you try to fit a rupture to kite with speed mods it becomes extremely weaker and dies. Once you fit a rupture to brawl then obviously it will win vs a kiting ship. But it also loses to all the other races brawling ships... badly I might admit. It was claimed that the Thorax both brawled and kited better than the Rupture. Both have been shown to be false. -Liang
Neither have been shown to be fale. EFT Warrioring is a tiny fraction of the game.
The thorax is faster than the rupture in any configuration, and has higher damage in practically every realistic fitting. The thorax has the speed to dictate range and the firepower to effectively use it... or not use it if it chooses.
Yes a medium neut hurts the thorax but ruptures have always had room for 2 neuts. The rupture was generally better due to its ability to stay out of the thorax 'kill zone' long enough to wear it down, then use neuts to dump the last of the thoraxs cap and finish it off. This is no longer the case.
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2832
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 01:19:00 -
[226] - Quote
The Thorax generally has the speed to get away, yes. It doesn't have the damage or EHP to kill a Rupture, all other things equal.
-Liang
Ed: Also, no. The Rupture didn't even previously need the two neuts to kill a Thorax. Not by a long shot. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:39:00 -
[227] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
It was claimed that the Thorax both brawled and kited better than the Rupture. Both have been shown to be false.
-Liang
Making up more stuff I see. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2832
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:47:00 -
[228] - Quote
Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:48:00 -
[229] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang
Fit your rupture with two nanofibers and two webs and tell me its better than the thorax. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2832
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 07:22:00 -
[230] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Apparently speed is irrelevant to kiting.
Aren't you the one that says things like "damage projection and speed don't matter - the Stabber sucks!"?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2833
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 09:24:00 -
[231] - Quote
Let's take a look at your assertion that the Thorax is a better kiting ship than the Stabber. The Thorax is 20% faster than the Rupture, and the Stabber 20% faster than the Thorax. Any commentary about how the Thorax is superior due to speed is instantly invalidated by the commentary that the Stabber's speed is irrelevant.
Moving on: we will once again focus on which would win a theoretical 1v1, despite the fact that's probably not a good measure of the ships. Let's take a look at the vital stats.
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
Thorax TTL: 100 sec Stabber TTL: 95 sec
The only obvious outcome to me is that the Stabber will always be able to run away because it's faster.
From there, things get murky real quick. The Stabber has superior DPS at range, so unsurprisingly the Thorax's best plan is to drop drop the kiting strategy wholesale and bum rush the Stabber. The more time spent up close, the better chance of winning. As it is, even such relatively trivial issues as poor capacitor and drone travel time could spell doom for the Thorax.
The Stabber's best plan is, unsurprisingly, to kite the Thorax. The Stabber's ranged DPS advantage means that even a short time spent outside of 24km disruptor range will have a major impact on the fight. The longer the Thorax chooses to stay on the field of battle - or even worse, pursue the Stabber - the more likely it is to die.
It's worth drawing the distinction from a similar fight with the Rupture. The Thorax has superior damage up close, and the speed to unavoidably get there, but it's not superior enough to overcome the Rupture's larger tank or potential neutralizer. However kiting isn't really an option for the Thorax, because the Rupture has better ranged DPS.
Additionally, as the fight wears on the naturally weak capacitor makes it harder to actually utilize the Thorax's speed advantage. So ultimately, the Thorax will be able to run away early on but will have great difficulty actually killing the Rupture - or even escaping later in the fight.
Now at this point you're probably going to point out that the fight with the Thorax is basically it trying to DPS/EHP fight a brawler. However, the beauty of the Rupture is that it's got good DPS projection as well as pretty decent (but not great) speed. It should be able to stay on the field, avoid most things that can kill it, and kill most things it can't. You know, exactly like it's always done.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians Iberians.
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 10:24:00 -
[232] - Quote
Come on, your analysis is nice, but in the end, such "lab contitions" doesn't exist in EvE.
So in the end, the better player (or the one with more friends / support allies) will win, no matter the ship he is flying. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
987
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 10:29:00 -
[233] - Quote
Otrebla Utrigas wrote:Come on, your analysis is nice, but in the end, such "lab contitions" doesn't exist in EvE. So in the end, the better player (or the one with more friends / support allies) will win, no matter the ship he is flying.
I think that was his point. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 15:42:00 -
[234] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang
People don't kite with drakes. Using an MWD and moving at 1000m/s isn't kiting, MWD for positioning is entirely different. Drakes buffer tank. kiting involves using a range advantage to mitigate damage. Drakes sit at long range and throw missiles, then soak up fire using EHP and logistics in fleets. Most solo/small gang drakes fit webs and slow targets down to get better missile damage... that's not kiting. Infact sticking 2 nanofibres on it barely makes any difference, but more BCS's makes a huge difference.
Faction 100MN fit's are another story. But that's always the case. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 16:36:00 -
[235] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
I think you mean Stabber 140 dps @ 24km.
I find it funny how you write an entire post with fake stats. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 17:25:00 -
[236] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang People don't kite with drakes. Using an MWD and moving at 1000m/s isn't kiting, MWD for positioning is entirely different. Drakes buffer tank. kiting involves using a range advantage to mitigate damage. Drakes sit at long range and throw missiles, then soak up fire using EHP and logistics in fleets. Most solo/small gang drakes fit webs and slow targets down to get better missile damage... that's not kiting. Infact sticking 2 nanofibres on it barely makes any difference, but more BCS's makes a huge difference. Faction 100MN fit's are another story. But that's always the case.
You can kite just fine in a drake! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2837
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 17:50:00 -
[237] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
I think you mean Stabber 140 dps @ 24km. I find it funny how you write an entire post with fake stats.
I do believe the Stabber fit in question is: Stabber 4x 425s (Barrage), 2x LML (CN Inferno) 10mn MWD, Disruptor II, 2x LSE II 2x Gyro, 2x TE ACR, 2x CDFE
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
991
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:07:00 -
[238] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
I think you mean Stabber 140 dps @ 24km. I find it funny how you write an entire post with fake stats. I do believe the Stabber fit in question is: Stabber4x 425s (Barrage), 2x LML (CN Inferno) 10mn MWD, Disruptor II, 2x LSE II 2x Gyro, 2x TE ACR, 2x CDFE -Liang
Similar gross EHP with LSE II, Adaptive Invuln II, and CDFE x 3 without a 10 million isk ACR?
|
Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
126
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:09:00 -
[239] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
I think you mean Stabber 140 dps @ 24km. I find it funny how you write an entire post with fake stats. I do believe the Stabber fit in question is: Stabber4x 425s (Barrage), 2x LML (CN Inferno) 10mn MWD, Disruptor II, 2x LSE II 2x Gyro, 2x TE ACR, 2x CDFE -Liang Similar gross EHP with LSE II, Adaptive Invuln II, and CDFE x 3 without a 10 million isk ACR? Slightly lower cap life too. Depends on if you wanna spend the 10m or not, I guess.
|
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
991
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:13:00 -
[240] - Quote
20 seconds of cap vs overheat ability. Personal choice. Shrug. |
|
Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
126
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:17:00 -
[241] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:20 seconds of cap vs overheat ability. Personal choice. Shrug. To be honest, I forgot you could OH invulns for a moment there. You make a good point. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:21:00 -
[242] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang People don't kite with drakes. Using an MWD and moving at 1000m/s isn't kiting, MWD for positioning is entirely different. Drakes buffer tank. kiting involves using a range advantage to mitigate damage. Drakes sit at long range and throw missiles, then soak up fire using EHP and logistics in fleets. Most solo/small gang drakes fit webs and slow targets down to get better missile damage... that's not kiting. Infact sticking 2 nanofibres on it barely makes any difference, but more BCS's makes a huge difference. Faction 100MN fit's are another story. But that's always the case. You can kite just fine in a drake!
Battleships can outrun you. It doesn't kite. MWD /= kiting. Before scrams turned off MWD's, they where considered 100% required for almost every PVP ship. The MWD is to keep you in range a bit longer for chasing targets, or keep your out of range for a little longer while being approached. having 100kEHP and a sig radius the size of a moon is not a kiting fit. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2840
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:51:00 -
[243] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: Similar gross EHP with LSE II, Adaptive Invuln II, and CDFE x 3 without a 10 million isk ACR?
I considered that, but discarded it because of the cap requirement. It's a good point for the spendthrift though.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2840
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 19:11:00 -
[244] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: Battleships can outrun you. It doesn't kite. MWD /= kiting. Before scrams turned off MWD's, they where considered 100% required for almost every PVP ship. The MWD is to keep you in range a bit longer for chasing targets, or keep your out of range for a little longer while being approached. having 100kEHP and a sig radius the size of a moon is not a kiting fit.
You've spent too much time in null sec and are completely out of touch with how to fly a Drake. Or potentially even a kiting ship as a whole.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Shadowschild
Black Lance Fidelas Constans
28
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 19:24:00 -
[245] - Quote
I completely disagree with the entire thread. The rupture got a boost with extra mid & is now a bit overpowered. You need to realize Minmatar have a rep for awesome sub-caps & ****** capitals.
And seriously who cares about kiting. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 19:53:00 -
[246] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Battleships can outrun you. It doesn't kite. MWD /= kiting. Before scrams turned off MWD's, they where considered 100% required for almost every PVP ship. The MWD is to keep you in range a bit longer for chasing targets, or keep your out of range for a little longer while being approached. having 100kEHP and a sig radius the size of a moon is not a kiting fit.
You've spent too much time in null sec and are completely out of touch with how to fly a Drake. Or potentially even a kiting ship as a whole. -Liang
I flew the drake almost exlusively in rancer. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2841
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 20:19:00 -
[247] - Quote
Ok, well maybe you never knew how then. People kite with Drakes quite successfully.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 20:34:00 -
[248] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Battleships can outrun you. It doesn't kite. MWD /= kiting. Before scrams turned off MWD's, they where considered 100% required for almost every PVP ship. The MWD is to keep you in range a bit longer for chasing targets, or keep your out of range for a little longer while being approached. having 100kEHP and a sig radius the size of a moon is not a kiting fit.
You've spent too much time in null sec and are completely out of touch with how to fly a Drake. Or potentially even a kiting ship as a whole. -Liang I flew the drake almost exlusively in rancer.
See , that is your problem right there. If you think you cant kite in a drake, where have you been the last year(s)? The drake is (was) (tier3s are better now) the best kiting battlecruiser in the game, it still is pretty good at it.
|
yer mammy
Derp Inc
33
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 21:28:00 -
[249] - Quote
this thread sucks@! |
Dorian Tormak
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 21:58:00 -
[250] - Quote
The Rifter has been forgotten about and cast aside because of all you whiners who used to be scared children clutching on the Rifter's ball-sack claiming it to be the best frigate ever and whining how nothing else could compare (meanwhile I was destroying 90% of Rifters in my Incursus every day since like... Aopocrypha hahaha)
You've brought this on yourselves, you've got the Slasher now, the Rifter will no doubt be looked at at some point
Also, nevermind what a 1,000 m/s Stabber w/ full tackle, dual neuts and 180s could be capable of doing in scram range - don't ever think outside the ball, kids! It's purely a kiter!
I never considered Minmatar very OP - maybe very very marginally over-powered, but it was nothing to write home about IMO, these days... they're about on par
NOT THAT ANYONE CARES WHAT I THNK FFS Dorian Trollmak. |
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 22:53:00 -
[251] - Quote
If you want to do a ab, scram frig killer/sig tanker. You can do a pretty awesome dualprop thorax. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 23:32:00 -
[252] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ok, well maybe you never knew how then. People kite with Drakes quite successfully.
-Liang
Ed: I think it sad that we're discussing whether Drakes can kite in a thread about Minmatar ships. At any rate, the Drake kites fine and so does the Rupture. See the rather large explanation for why. If you disagree, let's talk about that instead of why you suck at finding fights and flying Drakes.
Fitting an MWD doesn't mean you are a kiting ship. The drake always has a huge amount of HP to fall-back on. it's not a true kiting ship. The reason people fly it is due to its projection and buffer ability. The MWD with a bit of agility/speed from nano's is a nice addition but secondary to the HP is has as a tank method.
True kiting ships use range/sig/speed to mitigate damage and have a buffer fit as a safe-guard against being insta-popped.
Or we can look at it from the perspective of: The drake is a true kiting ship.
In which case i want more HP on my stabber, vagabond, deimos and every T3 battlecruiser.
I know snaked/gang linked drakes with some nano's can reach a good speed, but it's not any higher than another ship in that same situation. And you know yourself what its sig radius with an MWD on is like to incoming weapons fire. It practically mitigates the speed element of it's mitgation. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2841
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 23:33:00 -
[253] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:True kiting ships use...
No True Kiting Ship...
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 23:42:00 -
[254] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Ok, well maybe you never knew how then. People kite with Drakes quite successfully.
-Liang
Ed: I think it sad that we're discussing whether Drakes can kite in a thread about Minmatar ships. At any rate, the Drake kites fine and so does the Rupture. See the rather large explanation for why. If you disagree, let's talk about that instead of why you suck at finding fights and flying Drakes. Fitting an MWD doesn't mean you are a kiting ship. The drake always has a huge amount of HP to fall-back on. it's not a true kiting ship. The reason people fly it is due to its projection and buffer ability. The MWD with a bit of agility/speed from nano's is a nice addition but secondary to the HP is has as a tank method. True kiting ships use range/sig/speed to mitigate damage and have a buffer fit as a safe-guard against being insta-popped. Or we can look at it from the perspective of: The drake is a true kiting ship. In which case i want more HP on my stabber, vagabond, deimos and every T3 battlecruiser. I know snaked/gang linked drakes with some nano's can reach a good speed, but it's not any higher than another ship in that same situation. And you know yourself what its sig radius with an MWD on is like to incoming weapons fire. It practically mitigates the speed element of it's mitgation.
2km/s is more then enough to kite, especially as you have two 19km webs to keep fast tackle from shutting your mwd off. |
Taoist Dragon
Forced Penetration Hopeless Addiction
221
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 23:43:00 -
[255] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: True kiting ships use range/sig/speed to mitigate damage and have a buffer fit as a safe-guard against being insta-popped.
Isn't this the entire concept philosphy of the famous PODLA drake?
Hell I kite in scram range. Just cos you define kiting as zipping around @ multiple k's per second not everyone does.
if you are faster than your opponent or have the ability to dictate range through webs/scram/nuets w/e then you can kite. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
I'm NOT a Pirate! I'm a privateer! |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
83
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 23:55:00 -
[256] - Quote
Since were discussing Minnie ships does anyone have any feedback on the new cane, how does it perform now compared to before and what are it's ideal situations? Oderint Dum Metuant |
Dorian Tormak
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 06:15:00 -
[257] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Since were discussing Minnie ships does anyone have any feedback on the new cane, how does it perform now compared to before .... Performance? Like sexual??
Aralieus wrote:.... and what are it's ideal situations? Sold at the marketplace
No but really it's the same ship as before; you just use a fitting rig and you might get less damage or damage projection. Other than that, yeah, Winmatar Dorian Trollmak. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2842
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 06:56:00 -
[258] - Quote
Dorian Tormak wrote:Aralieus wrote:Since were discussing Minnie ships does anyone have any feedback on the new cane, how does it perform now compared to before .... Performance? Like sexual?? Aralieus wrote:.... and what are it's ideal situations? Sold at the marketplace No but really it's the same ship as before; you just use a fitting rig and you might get less damage or damage projection. Other than that, yeah, Winmatar
Use a single named LSE to avoid the fitting mod. It's better that way.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
149
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 23:24:00 -
[259] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Maeltstome wrote: True kiting ships use range/sig/speed to mitigate damage and have a buffer fit as a safe-guard against being insta-popped.
Isn't this the entire concept philosphy of the famous PODLA Drake?
It is. Podla has nowhere near the tank of the standard brick or even Goon fleet drake, sacrificing it all for kiting power, while retaining web and point. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
503
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 03:22:00 -
[260] - Quote
Dorian Tormak wrote:Also, nevermind what a 1,000 m/s Stabber w/ full tackle, dual neuts and 180s could be capable of doing in scram range - don't ever think outside the ball, kids! It's purely a kiter!
That doesn't really work though...
Unless you're trying to fight BS's i guess..
|
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
2849
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 04:39:00 -
[261] - Quote
It'd probably kill shield gank Thorax.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
308
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 01:58:00 -
[262] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It'd probably kill shield gank Thorax.
-Liang
A high-damage, close range, tracking bonused blaster ship against a neut AC ship. It's a question of time at that point, death of the stabber versus the thorax running dry.
Then again the stabber has weak cap also and will neut itself and possible loose tackle at some point.
Edit* And the medium drones i suppose punch hard given how low the stabbers EHP is. |
Shenra Twrin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 03:09:00 -
[263] - Quote
Flying Loki in PVP all day... no problems here |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
61
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 03:11:00 -
[264] - Quote
You can just fit shield thorax with a scram tho! Best imo is the dualprop shield throrax, due to dualprop (and beeing faster with an ab then some afs) and scram you can pretty much guarante range control vs mwd/scram frigs and you have a good chance vs ab frig, so you eat frigs. Thanks to dual te in the lows (+ dc and magstabs) you have the same range as a kiting thorax so if a kiting frig shows up you have a good chance at killing it before it runs away. And to kill kiting cruisers you heat your mwd, catch them, tun on the ab and orbit at 500 with antimatter. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
652
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 19:25:00 -
[265] - Quote
i agree that the rifter needs another look over because it's totally outclassed by the slasher now. I may also agree that looking over the stabber is a good idea.
However the other boats? no. They are just balanced before compared to their clear betterness of previous times. Rupture used to be the only good pvp T1 cruiser, remember? Now just because the other 3 are good too doesn't mean minmatar got nerfed.
Hurricane with 2 neuts was ridiculous. I think they went a bit overboard on nerfing its powergrid in its current iteration, but they were right to remove a high slot. Hopefully they buff up the PG to compensate.
Also, the cyclone is friggin awesome now, don't know what you are thinking but its essentially the same ship but with HAMs instead of autos. I don't see the problem with that. It was already crazy good with autos and neuts, should be even better now that it has 5 lows for speed mods. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
606
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:19:00 -
[266] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'm pretty sure that Thorax will lose on EHP alone.
-Liang
Indeed. Not the best option, but the "gank with tank" and gtfo ability without implants, booster or OGB.
This little crap here does 762DPS or 853DPS with heat Hammers II/Neurons+void - 2218m/s and 3163 with heat for 18K EHP. Throw in some implants, OGB, boosters and you get over 22K EHP higher velocity/agility and yes, I think this thing is deadly with OGB specially if you see more than one on grid.
[Thorax, Munster] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Power Diagnostic System II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Hammerhead II x5
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
606
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:23:00 -
[267] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It'd probably kill shield gank Thorax.
-Liang
Depending how fight starts and what you're in. Ruppy would have very little chance against this, shield rax, specially with such low dps (400'ish in optimal).
Tried to do some stuff with Ruppy on eft and with my alt in game, it's just something you do'nt want to fit or just with arties/all dps mods for pure gate gank in numbers because of alpha
Fit this ruppy is really not easy, not saying it's impossible but this ship could use of some love like another turret hard point, more fittings and bit of cpu. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3150
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:35:00 -
[268] - Quote
The Thorax you presented is basically the one that the conversation was about. It would die when trying to brawl down a Rupture. First, it would die because it has very low EHP. Second, it would die because it would run out of capacitor before killing the Rupture.
And finally: if you want to throw OGB links in then we might as well start talking about the Rupture being supported by a Legion... in which case the problem is so so so so much more true.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
606
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:39:00 -
[269] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The Thorax you presented is basically the one that the conversation was about. It would die when trying to brawl down a Rupture. First, it would die because it has very low EHP. Second, it would die because it would run out of capacitor before killing the Rupture.
And finally: if you want to throw OGB links in then we might as well start talking about the Rupture being supported by a Legion... in which case the problem is so so so so much more true.
-Liang
Indeed, all scenarios are possible and that rax fit is more about a gankalol fit. imho ruppy could use a bit of love for his dps still. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3150
|
Posted - 2013.02.21 20:44:00 -
[270] - Quote
I don't think the evidence provided really supports that conclusion. Certainly the situation is not nearly as dire as everyone has claimed in this thread. In the end, I'm sure the Rupture will be buffed and nerfed and buffed and nerfed and buffed and nerfed some more. Such is life in a MMO with an active game design team.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page] |