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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2765
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 20:58:00 -
[121] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:They better not mess with the phoon's sig radius (320m) or overall speed.
They're destroying the Cyclone, don't count on the Phoon staying worth a damn either.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
75
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 22:36:00 -
[122] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Aralieus wrote:Maeltstome wrote: So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please.
Everything else you said didn't really matter but i will address this concern of yours. I base what I said off of what I know and apparently CCP has known for quite sometime. This has been a stark reminder as to why i don't reply to people with a tiny bit of experience and a huge chip on their shoulder based on that experience. Good luck in life.
Oh I'm sorry I must have missed the part in the tutorial where it said I needed to justify myself to some randy on the forums, would you be a gent and point that part out to me so I know better next time. If you must know I have been in and out of Eve since 03' so if my knowledge of the game is in question by you then you need to ask me more specific questions instead of assuming I know nothing when I speak on a matter I have been interested in before you even hit the 'Create' button. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 06:29:00 -
[123] - Quote
It's always funny to see peoples reactions to things becoming less brokenly overpowered. Once upon a time people were being pissy because their blatantly overpowered nanoships, nos domis or sensor damps would be merely 'pretty good' instead of 'obviously the best'.
For a very very very long time minmatar has been perhaps not brokenly overpowered but have been abnormally good. That seems slated to change. And maybe CCP will think about dialing back on some of the changes in a while if it transpires that minmatar have been made too bad. It is next to impossible to make significant balance changes without making the present 'good' ships look less good. I mean... they are balance changes. Obviously that'll affect what ships seem good or bad.
Compared to huge nerfs that have come before, these changes are mild, and in lots of cases very over-due. They have not radically overpowered or underpowered anything. Even where ships seem weaker than the average, they are not so terrible as to be totally useless, just less perfect. We are moving towards a situation where things aren't better or worse, just different. I'm sure there'll be a few eggs broken along the way, and those will get tweaked and rebalanced until its just right.
For a lot of people, eve has always been about flying the most over powered ship around and pwning all with your magnificent doom-boat. CCP wants that to be in the past. They want every ship to be a plausible choice, and for no ship to rule them all. If you can't enjoy the game without the cheat codes... Well maybe you're a terrible person who thinks that cheap easy kills against people you radically outclass make you good at eve. I'm afraid you'll have to find some other way to get your kicks, perhaps take up scamming ? |
Sinigr Shadowsong
War Tactical Groups SOLAR FLEET
38
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Posted - 2013.01.22 09:31:00 -
[124] - Quote
People that compare raw DPS/EHP of ships to call for balance changes are often forget or deliberately ignore that there are much more factors.
List of some advantages that Minmatar ships in general have:
1. Only weapon system that has both selectable damage type and range on ammo. Missiles come close to it but cannot trade damage for range if needed and are more often than not cannot exploit weakness because of kinetic bonus. 2. Also works great for PvE. Minmatar ships are suited great for virtually any region and rat types that exists in game. If you think that it's not an advantage try to make missions (or complexes) against Agnels on laser boat. 3. Vast power grid on ships just because artillery exists. This leads to easiest fitting of all ships. Pre-nerf Hurricane could be fitted for 425mm + 2 Neuts with MWD and shield tank using no fittings skills beside Weapons Upgrades 4. Compare it to fitting a Harbinger. 4. Turrets that don't use capacitor at all. 5. High utility slots with cap-less weapons. Most missile ships dont have either utility slot or PG/CPU to fit something meaningful there. Meanwhile for minmatar this is a hefty bonus that forum posters tend to "forget". 6. Ability to choose between armor and shield. You are not forced to train them both since most minmatar ship are either shield-based or can be fitted with shield anyway. Those that are not suide for shield tanking at all may be painlessly replaced by another minmatar ship of same class with same weapon system. 7. Agility and speed advantage. 2-3 seconds fewer warp initiation are often a difference between lucky escape or painful ship loss. 8. Artillery with unique flavour of alfa which changes playstyle drastically.
Quote:where am I going to use medium autocannons now? Where am I going to use medium beam lasers now? |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:36:00 -
[125] - Quote
New cyclone will be pretty awesome. Single xlasb ham kiting fits are pretty much like faster podla drakes of old, with dual medium neuts more speed and agility with more ehp once the booster has run through and more cap! Even a buffer fit is reasonable well off.
Harbi gets buffed and if you know how to use it it already is one of the best bcs out there (600dps to 30km, 45k ehp, faster then a podla drake (2k with lg snaes/links) + medium neut+ more drones). Its on paper dps may not reach cane + hail lvl but due to its projection it is simply awesome (its like a kiting omen with twice the ehp and 50% more dps)!
Stabber sucks at actual pvp but its awesome at what its supposed to be, a training vessal for the cyna/vaga and it does this perfectly.
Yes minmatar ships get/got nerfed, but who cares. Angel ships still rule, they have the best cs, very good dessies, the arty wolf/thrasher. The best dictor and pretty cool bs! The new cyclone will be boss. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:42:00 -
[126] - Quote
QQQQQQQQ! My minmatar ship doesn't so obviously outclass those of every other race! I may have to depend on skill to win now!!! |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
279
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 14:00:00 -
[127] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:You know, I remember when Minmatar were considered the worst race for a long time (Rifter excepted, as until recently it was the king of frigates).
And you know what was even more interesting?
People feared fighting them.
They feared them because the people flying them were sh*t hot PVPers, who were taking ships that were noticably bad and doing serious damage with them by flying them to their strengths and coming up with interesting fits and tactics.
My point with all this?
So what if they're getting nerfed a bit, CCP have overbuffed them by lots of various direct and indirect buffs and are now fixing it, but they're still going to be very capable ships in the hands of good pilots.
The question is whether you think you can rise to the challenge like the pilots of old by proving that they're still deadly ships in the hands of a skilled pilot, or if you're going to sit and whine about losing your various advantages and proving to the world you're not the skilled pilot you make yourself out to be.
The decision is yours.
Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This is 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS. |
callyptic
Turalyon Plus
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 14:34:00 -
[128] - Quote
I personally do feel that minnie are a tad weaker now.
Before we could pick a fit with anyone.
Now we have to decide a little.
This is no different than to any other race but we have the added luxury of being able to vary our fits.
Basicly minmatar have issues against missile boats atm. Cant outrun them effectively and do not have the natural resists to tank it effectively. We can have both very decent setups for kiting Tanking and DPS. We just have to pick and hope are decision is right.
The biggest issue i have had against non minmatar pilots are TD's. There needs to be an effective counter for missiles. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2793
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:03:00 -
[129] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Hidden Snake
Genco Fatal Ascension
247
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:15:00 -
[130] - Quote
well I guess BC reballance will be more thought through before unleashing the patch. Minnies looks more weak then the other now. But kiting cyclone is one of my favorite theorycraft.
ad minnie cruisers ... well ruppie kinda sucks compare to the rest and stabber is oversized AF now, no more cruiser.
Based on CCPs conflict of interests I propose all who protest agains CCP Fozzie behaviour ad this to your sig.-á HIGH FIVE is LOW FIVE CCP.-á |
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Hidden Snake
Genco Fatal Ascension
247
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:17:00 -
[131] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP. -Liang
utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks? Based on CCPs conflict of interests I propose all who protest agains CCP Fozzie behaviour ad this to your sig.-á HIGH FIVE is LOW FIVE CCP.-á |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
670
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:58:00 -
[132] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
Ok...
Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
289
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:05:00 -
[133] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP. -Liang utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks?
No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump.
Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:20:00 -
[134] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP. -Liang utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks? No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump. Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you.
Thats cause you were fighting on station/gates, two condors could kill such a proteus. Just cause unbonused ewar isnt very usefull on SOLO cruisers/bcs/bs doesnt mean its worthless. It works very well on frigates (dual dampening/tding condor springs to mind), in fleets unbonused tds/damps can be very usefull aswella s neuts (not on your list, yet utility).
Seriously, the only place where minmatar is a bit weak atm is tech1 crusiers (and maybe t1 frigs), new cyclone will be awesome so it becomes the new (old) cane. For the rest minmatar is doing well. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
290
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:28:00 -
[135] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP. -Liang utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks? No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump. Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you. Thats cause you were fighting on station/gates, two condors could kill such a proteus. Just cause unbonused ewar isnt very usefull on SOLO cruisers/bcs/bs doesnt mean its worthless. It works very well on frigates (dual dampening/tding condor springs to mind), in fleets unbonused tds/damps can be very usefull aswella s neuts (not on your list, yet utility). Seriously, the only place where minmatar is a bit weak atm is tech1 crusiers (and maybe t1 frigs), new cyclone will be awesome so it becomes the new (old) cane. For the rest minmatar is doing well.
If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.
And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.
Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2796
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump.
Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you.
I don't see how you have no chance to kill it. Are you expecting it to be able to fire its guns without capacitor or are you expecting to run out of ammo before it dies with 250k EHP? The power of utility slots is quite powerful.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2796
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:49:00 -
[137] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.
And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.
Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.
Not even a noticeable percentage of fights happen at a station, gate, or POS.
-Liang
Ed: Also, bring your 5 warriors for my Condor. Pretty sure the fight will work out like this: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=44756 Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
482
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 16:58:00 -
[138] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children. Liang Nuren wrote:Let's take a look at your Rail Thorax.
Thorax: 2km/s, 20k EHP to Barrage, 315 DPS @ 24km, plenty of capacitor [cap boosters] Rupture: Rupture: 1.7km/s, 30k EHP to FN AM, 275 DPS @ 24km, 133 seconds of capacitor not required to fire the guns.
Thorax TTL: 72 seconds Rupture TTL: 95 seconds
Obvious outcome: Thorax runs away (because its faster).
-Liang
Ed: Again, focus on the things that are actually bad instead of "QQ, it's not THE ONLY VIABLE SHIP anymore!" Where are you getting these numbers from? What rupture set up is giving you 275 dps at 24kms? How 30k ehp? I don't see how you got that number, did you just make it up again? Did you remove the nanofiber for another tracking enhancer? At this rate even an ARMOR OMEN will beat that slow piece of crap you call a kiting ship. 337 dps at 24km 1628 speed (your rupture only has 1693 but you rounded it up to 1.7k) 30k ehp (you seem to think massive tank is very important for kiting, well here you go) cap stability [Omen, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Disruptor II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Energy Burst Aerator I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Warrior II x5 Best part? Remove the trimark and you go faster than the rupture while still doing more DPS and having better tank! I thought the omen sucked! Edit:[Omen, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Disruptor II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I Medium Energy Burst Aerator I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Warrior II x5 Now it has 378 dps at 24km 1713 speed (armor ship faster than shield rupture lol) 27k ehp cap stable And throughout the entire thread you've not posted a single fit only thrown out numbers. Quit making stuff up and post actual facts or gtfo.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
482
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:00:00 -
[139] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children.
Sigh.. lets do this one at a time (Ignoring all the badposts you made after this one because i really cannot be arsed)
Since you seem to enjoy comparing numbers i pretty much agree that a plated omen can beat a kiting rupture (tbh i don't think the kiting rupture is a really good fit anymore) But a plated omen loses to any other armor ship. (And don't try to say you will kite them, any competent cruiser pilot will catch/escape from a omen going 20% faster than they are) And if they get on top of you you're dead because the omen cannot apply dps to other cruisers at close range without a web, it just doesn't.
Also "Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400" "cap stable" EFT is lying to you, you're not cap stable, not even close.
But i'm guess what you want is a minmatar cruiser fit that will beat your omen? A kiting one? alright
[Rupture, New Setup 1] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
Stats are irrelevant, your range with scorch is 12, you die.
What about the stabber (which truly is bad)
[Stabber, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Seriously the stats on this thing are TERRIBLE, it will still **** your omen
It will be even worse with an armor dual prop rupture (Or even stabber) both will catch you if the pilot is competent..
And both will violate the omen as you will be doing absolutely zip damage.
Omen looks good on paper, The Rupture IS good.
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:04:00 -
[140] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:
If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.
And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.
Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.
People fight everywhere (and its a fight no matter if it means anything or not). Not everyone is a huge coward and only engages in dcking/jumping range. 30km is with links, and a linked condor has no problem staying outside this while speedtanking all the drones (or killing them if they would want to) and furthermore 8and here comes what is really important), two condors both with unbonused utility damps would put the proteus locking range to 18km, so its 30km scram is hardly of any help (which would mean the condors could do it unlinked)!
Just because frigs cant gank someone before he/she can redock doesnt mean that they are useless. In fact it doesnt mean anything at all, the only real case where it would be important on a regular basis is highsec pvp, and who gives a crap about "highsec pvp". |
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Othran
Route One
441
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:08:00 -
[141] - Quote
Frankly Minmatar has been too good for a few years, so in the normal way of things the nerfbat of doom will smack them into oblivion for a few years.
The upside is that it looks like armour tanking + speed is going to be viable again - especially if the rig changes happen.
Also the one thing about minnie is that you probably have a broad spectrum of skills anyway so cross-training isn't as painful as it could be.
tl;dr its not the end of the world |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:31:00 -
[142] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children. Sigh.. lets do this one at a time (Ignoring all the badposts you made after this one because i really cannot be arsed) Since you seem to enjoy comparing numbers i pretty much agree that a plated omen can beat a kiting rupture (tbh i don't think the kiting rupture is a really good fit anymore) But a plated omen loses to any other armor ship. (And don't try to say you will kite them, any competent cruiser pilot will catch/escape from a omen going 20% faster than they are) And if they get on top of you you're dead because the omen cannot apply dps to other cruisers at close range without a web, it just doesn't. Also "Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400" "cap stable" EFT is lying to you, you're not cap stable, not even close. But i'm guess what you want is a minmatar cruiser fit that will beat your omen? A kiting one? alright [Rupture, New Setup 1] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Stats are irrelevant, your range with scorch is 12, you die.
this doesnt really count as its a counter fit and you probably woulndt fly your ruppie this way. For all normal situations the (shield, noone fly its armor tanked as its bad at that) omen is way better then the td artyrupture or the satbber! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:36:00 -
[143] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote: this doesnt really count as its a counter fit and you probably woulndt fly your ruppie this way. For all normal situations the (shield, noone fly its armor tanked as its bad at that) omen is way better then the td artyrupture or the satbber!
I'd fly a TD Stabber. Hell it's probably the only way I'd fly a Stabber. I should have run the numbers on that Omen vs a Rupture last night, because I'm a bit skeptical that the Rupture wouldn't win/get away based on the Omen's ****** cap - even with the cap booster.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
51
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:44:00 -
[144] - Quote
Why would you do that :S, the only reason to fly a stabber is to kill frigates, if you fight cruisers your cap is going to run out and the rest of the enemy gang will probably catch you anyways, so shoudnt you use these mids to maximise your frig defence/killing abilit? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:53:00 -
[145] - Quote
I'd fly the Stabber for exactly the reasons you cite. Because they're generally true and I can probably get a few kills out of it. Also, it's fun to kick someone's ass in a ****** ship that should just roll over and die.
I'm not saying it's a *good fit*. I'm saying *I'd fly it*. Totally different.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:05:00 -
[146] - Quote
I should expound on that some more. The Stabber get's a (weak) falloff bonus which helps it apply damage at range. It's damage curve isn't too dissimilar to the Thorax's if you neglect drones, which is a fairly reasonable thing to do in a kitey fight. It's faster, more agile, has capless guns, and 4 mid slots.
These make it ideal or my purposes, if a bit weak. Yeah, it'd be like flying a paper tank, but it's not as though I don't do that all the time anyway.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
483
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:06:00 -
[147] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.
The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.
If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.
EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass. Mega wrong. The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Omen sucks? Settle down children. Sigh.. lets do this one at a time (Ignoring all the badposts you made after this one because i really cannot be arsed) Since you seem to enjoy comparing numbers i pretty much agree that a plated omen can beat a kiting rupture (tbh i don't think the kiting rupture is a really good fit anymore) But a plated omen loses to any other armor ship. (And don't try to say you will kite them, any competent cruiser pilot will catch/escape from a omen going 20% faster than they are) And if they get on top of you you're dead because the omen cannot apply dps to other cruisers at close range without a web, it just doesn't. Also "Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400" "cap stable" EFT is lying to you, you're not cap stable, not even close. But i'm guess what you want is a minmatar cruiser fit that will beat your omen? A kiting one? alright [Rupture, New Setup 1] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Large Shield Extender II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Stats are irrelevant, your range with scorch is 12, you die. this doesnt really count as its a counter fit and you probably woulndt fly your ruppie this way. For all normal situations the (shield, noone fly its armor tanked as its bad at that) omen is way better then the td artyrupture or the satbber!
I have a arty rupture just like that in my hangar? And no the TD arty rupture is better than the omen against all turret ships?
I probably wouldn't fly a stabber in general, but if i did it would be like that.
(Also if its a shield omen you don't even need the TD as the omen will have 3 ehp)
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2799
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:11:00 -
[148] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: (Also if its a shield omen you don't even need the TD as the omen will have 3 ehp)
The Shield Omen should have ~18-19K EHP, which puts it on par with the Thorax. That should give it roughly the same TTL as the Thorax (~77 sec?). However, it does considerably more damage at range while it has capacitor. Even still, I'd be honestly surprised if it had enough cap to actually kill the Rupture.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
291
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:25:00 -
[149] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.
And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.
Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.
Not even a noticeable percentage of fights happen at a station, gate, or POS.-Liang Ed: Also, bring your 5 warriors for my Condor. Pretty sure the fight will work out like this: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=44756
You seriously live in a bubble.
Just because you troll amamakes belts doesnt mean everyone does. I've spent 8 months trying to find 'different' PVP given that i started as a lo-sec pirate and then went into null-sec and then fleet warfare.
here's what i found: -Fight's in belts are 90% NPC'er ganks, noobs ganks, or elaborate traps. Oh, sometimes you kill mining ships. -0.0 you spend most of your time hunting for targets and your fights happen when you tackle them on a gate. Or if they land in a bubble. Here you face 2 scenario's. 1. You have sufficient tackle to hold them off gate, but then you are simply brawling. 2 You aren't a brawler and they can re-approach. Then the "HE'S AGGRESSED" game starts. -Losec is a nice game of "Who wants gate gun agro". -fighting -5's is again another game of "agress me cuz i dun wanna get gun agro" -PVP is generally quite ganky. Either you are ganking people or a larger gang is trying to gank you. Forcing errors out of an over-confident gang has nothing to do with ship balance. Most ships can do that. Hell, people make entire video's of themselves smashing targets who dont expect them to have a chance. Garmon/Kil2 make a career out of it.
Overall PVP is supposed to be un-consensual in EVE but the ability to frag-warp and use covops cloaks while warping to 0 makes a lie of this. I flew with the rancer guys for a month or so. The end result taught me a lot despite playing this game for years.
I have no way of succinctly or eloquently summing this up but the truth of it is: Very rarely do you need to commit to a fight and have no option to leave it unless you are heavily outnumbered. Most of the time people base arguments on situations that are rare.
Go and spend 2 months trying to fight people who fundamentally don't want to fight and you'll start to understand what i mean. You've seen a good bunch of gate camping no doubt liang, so you know that you basicalyl cant catch people who don't want to be caught and have a modicum of skill at pulling it off. Smart bombs are the only exception.
p.s.
Serious shut up with this condor argument. Smashing a terribad nano-fit arby doesnt make it suddenly OP. Situationally the ship is amazing, like all kiting ships. That's a close range ship thats fit for long range speed tanking using destructible damage. He has 3 decisions to make and made them all wrong. If this guy hadn't warped to a belt like a spaz he would have been able to jump out... reinforcing my above argument
Against a well fit proteus (to address the other condor lover) 2 perfect skilled condors will take nearly 17 minutes to kill it. in 17 minutes that guy could have moved (17*60*950)/1000=969 KM depending on how well they juggle capactior. If he rushes 2 condors on a belt/planet and cant get backup within 17 minutes from an alt or friends then he is an idiot and died because he was fighting for no reason for no reward.
But you know, this post will be skimmed and then someone will reply with a situational argument that they think counters it, maybe with a killboard link to a low IQ player who made multiple mistakes and was punished for it. Im making arguments as to why Minmatar aren't as OP as people think in a real PVP climate. If you want to argue that player skill > game balance then ill agree. But that doesn't mean you're argument is valid in a BALANCE DISCUSSION THREAD. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
291
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:27:00 -
[150] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I should expound on that some more. The Stabber get's a (weak) falloff bonus which helps it apply damage at range. It's damage curve isn't too dissimilar to the Thorax's if you neglect drones, which is a fairly reasonable thing to do in a kitey fight. It's faster, more agile, has capless guns, and 4 mid slots.
These make it ideal or my purposes, if a bit weak. Yeah, it'd be like flying a paper tank, but it's not as though I don't do that all the time anyway.
-Liang
The stabber is utterly pointless. By the time you fit the thing it's costs you 40mil, may aswell just spent more and get a fleet issue and have a higher than 10% chance of surviving 1 fight where something shoots at you. |
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