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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
982
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Posted - 2013.01.24 01:44:00 -
[211] - Quote
I was thinking about the poor old Rupture today as well as the new Armor changes and put this together:
High: Dual 180 AC II x 4 Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator Mid: Experimental MWD Medium Cap Booster II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler Low: Medium Ancillary Armor Repper 800mm Rolled Tungsten Plate EANM II DC II Gyro II Rigs: Medium ACR Armor nano pump Armor nanobot accelerator
450 DPS. 19k EHP but you inject 5400 armor over 52 seconds. The 1600mm plated, trimarked Rupture has 625 more overall armor HP then those two amounts added together but the fit above should move much more quickly and has a medium neut. the ship should survive long enough for the neut to shut down a Moa or Maller. The Vexor is another animal but most cruisers struggle against that monster in brawl |
Wivabel
Exanimo Inc Unclaimed.
102
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 02:13:00 -
[212] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Links will correct themselves soon enough. Just a playful poke. Karl in particular has taken to me the same way the croc took to Cpt. Hook. I can't wait for links to eat a big fat nerf. And I don't mean the off grid links, because getting links on grid is not that hard. AAAALLLLLLL links need to eat a giant ******* nerf. -Liang
2nd Down with Links all of em
Wiv To be a part of future EVE intrigue check us out. Sov in the south. Small gang pew is what we do when we are-ánot defending our space.-á
Join "Exan-áRecruitment"-áin game |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
80
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 04:02:00 -
[213] - Quote
Also, quick question for Aralieus: did you have links?
No links, tbh I have never used them on that server and I can't wait till the death of OGB's everywhere
In regards to that 'pimped' harby, your correct I would never fly that on Tranq and it's not the fit I used for those kills but it was identical just all T2 Oderint Dum Metuant |
Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
124
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 06:03:00 -
[214] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Also, quick question for Aralieus: did you have links?
No links, tbh I have never used them on that server and I can't wait till the death of OGB's everywhere
Good man, I can't wait until that time myself
Aralieus wrote: In regards to that 'pimped' harby, your correct I would never fly that on Tranq and it's not the fit I used for those kills but it was identical just all T2
Fair enough. And don't think I'm bashing on you for picking on newbs. Just making a case for that it's not so much that the Harby is OMGWTFBBQOP as it was a case of you being a skilled pilot, them not being as skilled, you having high SP, and them not. Take that how you want to, I'm just saying that you had a couple advantages that compensated for their numbers. |
Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians Iberians.
37
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Posted - 2013.01.24 09:21:00 -
[215] - Quote
So now, instead of just ROFLPWNing any other ship in the game, Minmatar ships are balanced.
And aside from delicious tears and toddler rage... how in HELL is that a bad thing for this game?
I'm mostly a caldari pilot with both hybrid and missile skills, and I love the possibility of flying a condor, or a merlin, or a kestrel, or a caracal, or a Moa, instead of just "Fly a rifter / stabber / rupture or die helplessly"
Now every ship is useful, and you can fly what you want, instead of what they force you to (if you want to survive an engagement) |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
81
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Posted - 2013.01.24 15:17:00 -
[216] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Aralieus wrote:Also, quick question for Aralieus: did you have links?
No links, tbh I have never used them on that server and I can't wait till the death of OGB's everywhere
Good man, I can't wait until that time myself Aralieus wrote: In regards to that 'pimped' harby, your correct I would never fly that on Tranq and it's not the fit I used for those kills but it was identical just all T2
Fair enough. And don't think I'm bashing on you for picking on newbs. Just making a case for that it's not so much that the Harby is OMGWTFBBQOP as it was a case of you being a skilled pilot, them not being as skilled, you having high SP, and them not. Take that how you want to, I'm just saying that you had a couple advantages that compensated for their numbers.
I understand what you were saying and I agree, the new Harb is what the old Harb should have been tho.
Here is the fit I used:
[Harbinger, x13] Power Diagnostic System II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I Medium Energy Burst Aerator I
Valkyrie II x5 EC-300 x5
I thought I recorded that fight but I guess not, I do have a clip of another one that I used the same tactics for however:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMd7_GZyRyk
Oderint Dum Metuant |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:52:00 -
[217] - Quote
Dont use an invul, cap if life and dual lse is better anyways. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
495
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:58:00 -
[218] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Dont use an invul, cap if life and dual lse is better anyways.
I highly doubt it has the grid for that.
Although it might since the fittings on LSE's are bullshit. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 18:00:00 -
[219] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Dont use an invul, cap if life and dual lse is better anyways. I highly doubt it has the grid for that. Although it might since the fittings on LSE's are bullshit.
twin regoliths or if you are down for paying for faction LSE's they have better fitting. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 22:45:00 -
[220] - Quote
Otrebla Utrigas wrote:So now, instead of just ROFLPWNing any other ship in the game, Minmatar ships are balanced.
And aside from delicious tears and toddler rage... how in HELL is that a bad thing for this game?
I'm mostly a caldari pilot with both hybrid and missile skills, and I love the possibility of flying a condor, or a merlin, or a kestrel, or a caracal, or a Moa, instead of just "Fly a rifter / stabber / rupture or die helplessly"
Now every ship is useful, and you can fly what you want, instead of what they force you to (if you want to survive an engagement)
rofl. Get a clue and read the thread maybe before you post crap. |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
996
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 22:48:00 -
[221] - Quote
Shield Auto Rupture: 511 dps, 28.7k EHP (warp disruptor II, medium neut), 511*28.7 = 14,665 Shield Blaster Thorax: 680 dps, 21.3k EHP (faint warp disruptor) 680*21.3 = 14,484
Rupture wins on EHP * DPS. Has a neut which outranges the heavy nuetron blasters. Longer point range (due to fittings requirements).
Once Rupture puts nuet on Thorax, it will cap it out in 35 seconds. 511*35 = 17,885 EHP - which means Thorax will cap out before fight is over.
Rupture can also hit into the tanking hole of the Thorax.
Etc..
Conclusion: Shield Rupture > Shield Thorax. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
44
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Posted - 2013.01.24 22:59:00 -
[222] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Shield Auto Rupture: 511 dps, 28.7k EHP (warp disruptor II, medium neut), 511*28.7 = 14,665 Shield Blaster Thorax: 680 dps, 21.3k EHP (faint warp disruptor) 680*21.3 = 14,484
Rupture wins on EHP * DPS. Has a neut which outranges the heavy nuetron blasters. Longer point range (due to fittings requirements).
Once Rupture puts nuet on Thorax, it will cap it out in 35 seconds. 511*35 = 17,885 EHP - which means Thorax will cap out before fight is over.
Rupture can also hit into the tanking hole of the Thorax.
Etc..
Conclusion: Shield Rupture > Shield Thorax.
Omg, My eyes hurt.
The original argument was that a rupture isn't a good kiting ship, not that it can't brawl with a thorax. Once you try to fit a rupture to kite with speed mods it becomes extremely weaker and dies.
Once you fit a rupture to brawl then obviously it will win vs a kiting ship. But it also loses to all the other races brawling ships... badly I might admit. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2832
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 23:18:00 -
[223] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shield Auto Rupture: 511 dps, 28.7k EHP (warp disruptor II, medium neut), 511*28.7 = 14,665 Shield Blaster Thorax: 680 dps, 21.3k EHP (faint warp disruptor) 680*21.3 = 14,484
Rupture wins on EHP * DPS. Has a neut which outranges the heavy nuetron blasters. Longer point range (due to fittings requirements).
Once Rupture puts nuet on Thorax, it will cap it out in 35 seconds. 511*35 = 17,885 EHP - which means Thorax will cap out before fight is over.
Rupture can also hit into the tanking hole of the Thorax.
Etc..
Conclusion: Shield Rupture > Shield Thorax. Omg, My eyes hurt. The original argument was that a rupture isn't a good kiting ship, not that it can't brawl with a thorax. Once you try to fit a rupture to kite with speed mods it becomes extremely weaker and dies. Once you fit a rupture to brawl then obviously it will win vs a kiting ship. But it also loses to all the other races brawling ships... badly I might admit.
It was claimed that the Thorax both brawled and kited better than the Rupture. Both have been shown to be false.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
996
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 00:19:00 -
[224] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It was claimed that the Thorax both brawled and kited better than the Rupture. Both have been shown to be false.-Liang Yeah if you're gonna fly shield, then Rupture > Thorax. It used to be Shield blaster Thorax > Shield autocannon Rupture because of ec-600 drones, but that sensor strength advantage has gone away.
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Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 00:40:00 -
[225] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Shield Auto Rupture: 511 dps, 28.7k EHP (warp disruptor II, medium neut), 511*28.7 = 14,665 Shield Blaster Thorax: 680 dps, 21.3k EHP (faint warp disruptor) 680*21.3 = 14,484
Rupture wins on EHP * DPS. Has a neut which outranges the heavy nuetron blasters. Longer point range (due to fittings requirements).
Once Rupture puts nuet on Thorax, it will cap it out in 35 seconds. 511*35 = 17,885 EHP - which means Thorax will cap out before fight is over.
Rupture can also hit into the tanking hole of the Thorax.
Etc..
Conclusion: Shield Rupture > Shield Thorax. Omg, My eyes hurt. The original argument was that a rupture isn't a good kiting ship, not that it can't brawl with a thorax. Once you try to fit a rupture to kite with speed mods it becomes extremely weaker and dies. Once you fit a rupture to brawl then obviously it will win vs a kiting ship. But it also loses to all the other races brawling ships... badly I might admit. It was claimed that the Thorax both brawled and kited better than the Rupture. Both have been shown to be false. -Liang
Neither have been shown to be fale. EFT Warrioring is a tiny fraction of the game.
The thorax is faster than the rupture in any configuration, and has higher damage in practically every realistic fitting. The thorax has the speed to dictate range and the firepower to effectively use it... or not use it if it chooses.
Yes a medium neut hurts the thorax but ruptures have always had room for 2 neuts. The rupture was generally better due to its ability to stay out of the thorax 'kill zone' long enough to wear it down, then use neuts to dump the last of the thoraxs cap and finish it off. This is no longer the case.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2832
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 01:19:00 -
[226] - Quote
The Thorax generally has the speed to get away, yes. It doesn't have the damage or EHP to kill a Rupture, all other things equal.
-Liang
Ed: Also, no. The Rupture didn't even previously need the two neuts to kill a Thorax. Not by a long shot. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:39:00 -
[227] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
It was claimed that the Thorax both brawled and kited better than the Rupture. Both have been shown to be false.
-Liang
Making up more stuff I see. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2832
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:47:00 -
[228] - Quote
Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 06:48:00 -
[229] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang
Fit your rupture with two nanofibers and two webs and tell me its better than the thorax. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2832
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 07:22:00 -
[230] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Apparently speed is irrelevant to kiting.
Aren't you the one that says things like "damage projection and speed don't matter - the Stabber sucks!"?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2833
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 09:24:00 -
[231] - Quote
Let's take a look at your assertion that the Thorax is a better kiting ship than the Stabber. The Thorax is 20% faster than the Rupture, and the Stabber 20% faster than the Thorax. Any commentary about how the Thorax is superior due to speed is instantly invalidated by the commentary that the Stabber's speed is irrelevant.
Moving on: we will once again focus on which would win a theoretical 1v1, despite the fact that's probably not a good measure of the ships. Let's take a look at the vital stats.
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
Thorax TTL: 100 sec Stabber TTL: 95 sec
The only obvious outcome to me is that the Stabber will always be able to run away because it's faster.
From there, things get murky real quick. The Stabber has superior DPS at range, so unsurprisingly the Thorax's best plan is to drop drop the kiting strategy wholesale and bum rush the Stabber. The more time spent up close, the better chance of winning. As it is, even such relatively trivial issues as poor capacitor and drone travel time could spell doom for the Thorax.
The Stabber's best plan is, unsurprisingly, to kite the Thorax. The Stabber's ranged DPS advantage means that even a short time spent outside of 24km disruptor range will have a major impact on the fight. The longer the Thorax chooses to stay on the field of battle - or even worse, pursue the Stabber - the more likely it is to die.
It's worth drawing the distinction from a similar fight with the Rupture. The Thorax has superior damage up close, and the speed to unavoidably get there, but it's not superior enough to overcome the Rupture's larger tank or potential neutralizer. However kiting isn't really an option for the Thorax, because the Rupture has better ranged DPS.
Additionally, as the fight wears on the naturally weak capacitor makes it harder to actually utilize the Thorax's speed advantage. So ultimately, the Thorax will be able to run away early on but will have great difficulty actually killing the Rupture - or even escaping later in the fight.
Now at this point you're probably going to point out that the fight with the Thorax is basically it trying to DPS/EHP fight a brawler. However, the beauty of the Rupture is that it's got good DPS projection as well as pretty decent (but not great) speed. It should be able to stay on the field, avoid most things that can kill it, and kill most things it can't. You know, exactly like it's always done.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Otrebla Utrigas
Iberians Iberians.
39
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 10:24:00 -
[232] - Quote
Come on, your analysis is nice, but in the end, such "lab contitions" doesn't exist in EvE.
So in the end, the better player (or the one with more friends / support allies) will win, no matter the ship he is flying. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
987
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 10:29:00 -
[233] - Quote
Otrebla Utrigas wrote:Come on, your analysis is nice, but in the end, such "lab contitions" doesn't exist in EvE. So in the end, the better player (or the one with more friends / support allies) will win, no matter the ship he is flying.
I think that was his point. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 15:42:00 -
[234] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang
People don't kite with drakes. Using an MWD and moving at 1000m/s isn't kiting, MWD for positioning is entirely different. Drakes buffer tank. kiting involves using a range advantage to mitigate damage. Drakes sit at long range and throw missiles, then soak up fire using EHP and logistics in fleets. Most solo/small gang drakes fit webs and slow targets down to get better missile damage... that's not kiting. Infact sticking 2 nanofibres on it barely makes any difference, but more BCS's makes a huge difference.
Faction 100MN fit's are another story. But that's always the case. |
bigboy boss
State War Academy Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2013.01.25 16:36:00 -
[235] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
I think you mean Stabber 140 dps @ 24km.
I find it funny how you write an entire post with fake stats. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 17:25:00 -
[236] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang People don't kite with drakes. Using an MWD and moving at 1000m/s isn't kiting, MWD for positioning is entirely different. Drakes buffer tank. kiting involves using a range advantage to mitigate damage. Drakes sit at long range and throw missiles, then soak up fire using EHP and logistics in fleets. Most solo/small gang drakes fit webs and slow targets down to get better missile damage... that's not kiting. Infact sticking 2 nanofibres on it barely makes any difference, but more BCS's makes a huge difference. Faction 100MN fit's are another story. But that's always the case.
You can kite just fine in a drake! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2837
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 17:50:00 -
[237] - Quote
bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
I think you mean Stabber 140 dps @ 24km. I find it funny how you write an entire post with fake stats.
I do believe the Stabber fit in question is: Stabber 4x 425s (Barrage), 2x LML (CN Inferno) 10mn MWD, Disruptor II, 2x LSE II 2x Gyro, 2x TE ACR, 2x CDFE
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
991
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 18:07:00 -
[238] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
I think you mean Stabber 140 dps @ 24km. I find it funny how you write an entire post with fake stats. I do believe the Stabber fit in question is: Stabber4x 425s (Barrage), 2x LML (CN Inferno) 10mn MWD, Disruptor II, 2x LSE II 2x Gyro, 2x TE ACR, 2x CDFE -Liang
Similar gross EHP with LSE II, Adaptive Invuln II, and CDFE x 3 without a 10 million isk ACR?
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Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
126
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Posted - 2013.01.25 18:09:00 -
[239] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:bigboy boss wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
Thorax: 2km/s, 22k EHP to Barrage, 210 DPS @ 24km, 77 seconds of capacitor required to fire the guns Stabber: 2.4km/s, 20k EHP to Null, 220 DPS @ 24km, 120 of capacitor for the MWD
I think you mean Stabber 140 dps @ 24km. I find it funny how you write an entire post with fake stats. I do believe the Stabber fit in question is: Stabber4x 425s (Barrage), 2x LML (CN Inferno) 10mn MWD, Disruptor II, 2x LSE II 2x Gyro, 2x TE ACR, 2x CDFE -Liang Similar gross EHP with LSE II, Adaptive Invuln II, and CDFE x 3 without a 10 million isk ACR? Slightly lower cap life too. Depends on if you wanna spend the 10m or not, I guess.
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
991
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Posted - 2013.01.25 18:13:00 -
[240] - Quote
20 seconds of cap vs overheat ability. Personal choice. Shrug. |
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