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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Recently CCP Soundwave mentioned during the New Eden Open that they are working hard to fix "bad" complexity in EVE. We're not talking about complex manufacturing chains here (which are good).. We're talking about parts of the game which prohibit efficient workflow, or had little thought put into them during their initial implementation.
So, what's the problem? Well, recently the forums have been flooded with tears from Drones Boat Pilots because the AI became a whole lot creepier by preying on little drones more regularly. I have no issue with that, I think it's great to challenge the players.. But that's not actually the source of frustration. It seems that drones as a weapons platform were so complicated to manage that they ended up taking a backseat in most PVP situations, in order to find a home with PVE players. But it is now the amount of micromanagement required even during PVE that has people flooding the forums with their tears. And fair call, to be honest.
Weapons systems are easy! If you want to kill a target in a mission with a Weapons system, you merely lock the target and hit the F1 key. Too cool for school. Hard to get wrong. Works extremely well in PvP too! Sure, some damage is delayed, like Launcher damage - but hey, you still only need to hit one button to start reigning terror on your target. Fun!
Drones systems are a mess! On the other hand, if you want to kill a target in a mission with a Drone system, you need to right click your group of drones and select 'deploy'. Then in some cases, in order for them to attack the right target you need to right click them again tell them to engage your locked target. Oh yeah, now before someone brings it up - I'm going to trade 'unlimited ammo' for 'travel time' so lets just say those two things cancel themselves out.. OK? But still, gosh that's a lot of micromanagement just to get all the things killed with drones, no?
Well, how does one propose to solve this issue? My solution is by no means a perfect solution so I hope that in this thread we can get a consensus running on what the best method of managing drones could possibly be and then we politely make enough noise so that CCP take note, and look to implement these changes sooner rather than later..
I've got two 'concepts' for drone management I want to put forward.. One is straight forward and based on existing systems and technology already in place, the other is a bit more radical and would require some effort on the part of CCP. Both solutions offer the same result: A faster, easier, smarter approach to the management of drones in order to make them a viable weapons platform in EVE.
So.. this is it, put forward your suggestions on how you think the management of drones could be improved in EVE.
Please do not post nerfing or buffing drone suggestions here as this is not what this thread is about. Thank you!
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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Simply Spreadsheets Drone Management Concept 1:
Overview: Remove 'orbiting' of drones altogether (it's an illogical mechanic). Turn drone actions into hot keys - so that operating drones is like operating weapons system. Mouse on the targets, fingers on the firing buttons.
UI: Keep the drone overview box and all associated options. Launch: You won't need to do this anymore. Attack: Pressing [Hotkey 1] will instantly launch the group of drones you have pre selected and they will instantly go after the target you have selected (as if you had launched them, had them orbiting, and just selected "engage target") Return: Pressing [Hotkey 2] will disengage all drones and make them return to hangar as fast as they possibly can. Grouping: You will be encouraged to use grouping to predefine which types of drones you launch. You can manage this from the UI.
Summary: During PVP or PVE your focus should be on attacking, kiting, tank management etc. It turns out that the "orbiting" feature of Drones is simply the result of an over complicated launch mechanic. The only reason people deploy drones in advanced is to save them the extra step required in order to engage targets with drones. This solution solves that issue and makes drones a much more viable weapons system for PVP and PVE.
Requirements: Addition of "Launch to Attack" quick key to Custom Key Mapping. Addition of "Return to Ship" quick key to Custom Key Mapping. Highlighted Group from Drones Overview needs to be associated with either Hotkey at time of pressing.
Drones Weapon System 2.0:
Overview: Completely overhaul drone interface to become a real weapons system. Remove "Drone" overview. Add "Drone Bay" modules to Weapons Console UI. Remove 'orbiting' of drones altogether (it's an illogical mechanic).
UI: Remove the Drones overview. Replace it with "Drone Bay" modules that appear when you first undock in the Weapons Console. You rearrange and group your drones based on types you have available in your drone bay. If you had 5 Hobgoblins, they would appear as 5 Hobgoblin Modules. You can rearrange them as you please, you can group them. More discussions required around managing large capacities of drones.. Launch: You won't need to do this anymore. Attack: If you have moved your "Group of Hobgoblins" into slot 1 - you will need only press F1 to launch your drones instantly from your bay and onto your selected target. Return: Pressing the same key "F1" in this example, will disengage that slot's GROUP of drones and make them return to hangar as fast as they possibly can. Grouping: You will be encouraged to use grouping to predefine which types of drones you launch. If you had 2 Hobgoblins in slot 1, and 2 ECM Hornets in slot 2 you would press F1 and F2 and both would launch (provided you have sufficient bandwidth) towards your target. If you hit F2 again (deactivating the module), the ECM Hornets would return. If you then selected another target and hit F2 the ECM would switch targets and go after your new target.
Summary: Inline with CCP's move towards consolidation of systems that are complicated, this is (in my humble opinion) the most logical approach to making drones a viable weapons platform that can be easily used in PVE and PVP. No need to buff, no need to nerf, just improve the way in which this weapons system is actually used by players. I for one would certainly like to use drones in PVP more often, but the fact of the matter is they're too time consuming.
Requirements: A lot of effort by CCP. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
234
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:
Requirements: A lot of effort by CCP.
theres yer problem
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1893
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Marr Aridia wrote:Requirements: A lot of effort by CCP. theres yer problem Dead in the water...? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE..
http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF |
Samroski
Games Inc.
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
I support this suggestion fully.
Make small icons that we can click to give commands to drones. Right-clicking and selecting options from menus, while your shields are going down is a royal pain. Happiness is a warm gun. |
Bing Khagah
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Recently CCP Soundwave mentioned during the New Eden Open that they are working hard to fix "bad" complexity in EVE. We're not talking about complex manufacturing chains here (which are good).. We're talking about parts of the game which prohibit efficient workflow, or had little thought put into them during their initial implementation.
What, like deliberately introducing a bug that requires stupid user interaction to evade npc drone agro?
Marr Aridia wrote: So.. this is it, put forward your suggestions on how you think the management of drones could be improved in EVE.
Drones were fine until this patch targeted them specifically. Using the new UI. That bugged and kept a perma lock on them. From 300km. |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bing Khagah wrote:Drones were fine until this patch targeted them specifically. Using the new UI. That bugged and kept a perma lock on them. From 300km.
Drones as a weapon are fine. The introduction of the Sleeper AI has just increased the amount of management a PVE pilot has to apply to organising the to-and-fro of his fleet of drones instead of focusing on the tactical situation at hand. That is indeed, very frustrating. Funnily enough it's the same reason that drones are not usually used in 1v1 PVP situations.. Too much work, when you need to be focusing on other things to stay alive/kill your target.
In order to make drones a viable weapons platform for PVP and PVE - the interface/management of said weapons system needs to be improved drastically so that creative tactical drone use can replace this 'set and forget' PVE only weapon system.
I'm absolutely certain that if you were able to control the deployment and retreat of drones simply by hitting F1 keys not only would PVE'ing with Drones be more fun, but PVP for Gallente and Amarr pilots would become a whole lot more interesting.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
803
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:It seems that drones as a weapons platform were so complicated to manage that they ended up taking a backseat in most PVP situations
Bullshit. Release drones, press F, monitor drone hp bars if you feel this is important (hint: often is, but no more effort involved than watch your own ships health).
The only real problem with drones is two fold: 1) clunky AI, their sudden target swapping midfight in both PvP and PvE is less-than-appealing, and not returning when told repeatedly is like trying to walk a poorly trained dog.. 2) CCP being .."less than smart".. with this new AI. Drones should not get that excessive aggro from NPCs, simply put. You can't reliably use drones now in PvE if NPCs are too many on grid, and if you want to engage a target that is PvEing - drones will get chewed up (your own ship too, which is another non-drone related issue). Drones just don't have very nice health buffer, combined with pulsing of MWD with not-very-bright AI makes them very very prone to die.
The only fix drones need is this: Less aggro from NPCs, or greatly reduced damage done to drones by NPCs (we're talking in the 10-20% of current levels, max). And a fix to their irrational behaviours, combined with a much-needed re-assurance that they DO come back when you yell at them.
But it's bullshit to call this "complicated to manage" or being "backseat" in most PvP situations. It's not the drones fault that people like to blob and warp around on grid. If people chose to not fight smallscale, but to blob and warp nonstop, it's their own fault for creating a poor fighting environment for that kind of combat. And how hard is it to tell drones to attack/return.. AFK-cloaking in a system near you. |
Ayx Shewma
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 07:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Maybe, at the very least, separate drone bays for each size and a 'launch' hotkey for each bay.
Or a much more customizable group(ing) system with much more flexibility in hotkey assignments. Say I create a group called 'hob'. I can then hit ESC, go to shortcuts and my 'hob' group is in there where I can assign a key for launching that group.
Personally, I have no problem hitting _ to launch, _to attack, and _ to recall. If they want to change it to buttons, that's fine too, I was just throwing this out as a 'minimal/quick change'. |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1952
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 07:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 07:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
What an incredible idea! I would definitely support this.
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Dheeradj Nurgle
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
26
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
I like this, though I think actually making it happen would be a lot of work.(If it's even viable) |
Irya Boone
Escadron leader
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
There the things to do to solve all the problem with drones .
Remove Aggressive mode = No more afk in mission and for miners in belt.
Micro jump drive of drones to target = instant damage on target
All drones doing the same amount of damage ( now everyone using gallente drone because they doing more damage ) so increase...
Damage amplifier : Increase the damage modification / penalty= decrease durability of drones.
And for GOD sake give drones Boat Real Bonuses for drones not only the poor 10% hit bonus
X% hit bonus +X% optimal range +X% tracking speed + X% opti range etc etc
For example for The Domi X=10 or 15 :))
And for fixing the SIN .... X =30..... as the sin ( even it's not really a drone Boat ) has less tank than the dominix
There is no effort to do , nothing to re-code just simple modification.
Fix the aggro of NPC on drones AND just remove the aggressive if you want to butt-hurt AFK missions runner. Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
65
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF
Yeah, good stuff! While I support this, I think it's too much for programmers to handle. They can't fix 2-3 years old bugs (like camera reset after relog), I guess you can't expect them to do this in a good quality. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Pretty GuyYeah
35
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 09:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
I very much agree with the fact that drones need either a buff or a complete revamp to compenstate for the changes made in Retribtution. Remove local. Revamp or buff drones. Buff low and nullsec. Limit null camping possibilities. |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 10:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:There the things to do to solve all the problem with drones .
Remove Aggressive mode = No more afk in mission and for miners in belt.
Micro jump drive of drones to target = instant damage on target
All drones doing the same amount of damage ( now everyone using gallente drone because they doing more damage ) so increase...
Damage amplifier : Increase the damage modification / penalty= decrease durability of drones.
And for GOD sake give drones Boat Real Bonuses for drones not only the poor 10% hit bonus
X% hit bonus +X% optimal range +X% tracking speed + X% opti range etc etc
For example for The Domi X=10 or 15 :))
And for fixing the SIN .... X =30..... as the sin ( even it's not really a drone Boat ) has less tank than the dominix
There is no effort to do , nothing to re-code just simple modification.
Fix the aggro of NPC on drones AND just remove the aggressive if you want to butt-hurt AFK missions runner.
As I stated in my original post, please refrain from discussing nerfing/buffing in this thread.
Whilst I can appreciate you enthusiasm for buffing the crap out of drones, even the smallest dps weapons can be lethal when used effectively.. that is what this thread is about, making it so that a clunky weapons platform can be utilised as efficiently as possible by the player base new and old. Only once this fundamental issue is repaired can the discussions of buffing or nerfing truly be understood.
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Aleks Crawler
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 11:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
That would be amazing, reminds me of the AI system of Final Fantasy XII. It could be made really simple and still be effective. You should develop your idea and submit it as a F&I topic.
And, I support the OP with the dire need of a drone UI and AI overhaul.
One problem that bugs me is the lack of communication from CCP on the subject. All we have is "we know it sucks", its surely usable but its a pain in the a**.
Drones are the primary weapon for nearly half of Gallente ships and more Amarr ships will soon fall into that category too.
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Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
603
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
- Can't tell which drones are damaged in drone bay - Can't repair drones in drone bay - Huge signature (even more boosted when MWD-ing ?) makes drones instadead when AI decides to shoot them limiting their travel range to < 10km - Drones lag on commands, especially the drones under fire.
Decreasing the signature with a factor of ten would be a good start. FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode Mildly Sober
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
This could be the best idea I've seen in GD for a long time! Awesome.
Reminds me of dragon age origins with the complex behaviour programming mod.
It would also mean that the best drone pilots would be those who can think in programming and logic terms, which I would love.
The script you write for your drones could be loaded like ammo and the best ones could be sold on the market (with the code hidden from anyone but the original author). |
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Zofe Stormcaller
Shogun's Samurai Unclaimed.
17
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have 3 buttons on my command pad mapped to "Shoot target", "Return and orbit" and "Return to bay".
Professional Gallente. |
Leela Sirene
The Scope Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF
That's exactly what has to be done. I absolutely support this idea. A simple One Klick Weapon System like the all the other weapon systems in game.
Activate and they will do their job. Deactivate and they will come back.
As easy as that. Of course that might not be all. I'm pretty sure this would need certain additional options in order to manage your drones but the basic idea is pretty much what it needs to be when it comes to actually deploy them on the field. Because right now handling drones is just plain terrible.
Louis deGuerre wrote: - Can't tell which drones are damaged in drone bay - Can't repair drones in drone bay - Huge signature (even more boosted when MWD-ing ?) makes drones instadead when AI decides to shoot them limiting their travel range to < 10km - Drones lag on commands, especially the drones under fire.
That's what I mean by plain terrible. With all it's flaws handling drones seems like a unfinished Jesus feature of former EVE times. Hopefully CCP is aware of it. I say hopefully because we've still got no information or statement on the whole "New-NPC-AI-and-drones-issue".
Snowball Launchers? I would be more surprised and pleased by actual communication of CCP regarding this topic. Even if it doesn't touch the AI at all. Never the less, I like the original post. |
Donnero
Arliuhtan
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
I want a feedback which drones got the aggro, if your drones are far away its often to late to call them back when they getting fire.
On the othe rhand it may helps if NPC's doesnt event insta locks drones, if you try to lock a npc web drone you know ho wlong it takes, fu.. npc are cheating |
iskflakes
Magnets Inc.
150
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Seems like a good idea to me. Track your wealth with EVEStats - https://ohheck.co.uk/EVEStats/home.php |
Velocifero
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc. What an incredible idea! I would definitely support this.
+1 for this. It would enable another level of functionality, and encourage players to be even more creative with their tactics and be able to recall them situationally.
There could actually be the potential for many modules to have scripting functions. I would definitely pre-program my group of artillery to resume firing following reload.
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
I agree that the drone UI really needs some improvements... You would have thought that Team Game of Drones would have been given that task but apparently not.
Anyway, i have always though that droneboats should be able to use drones exclusevly as their primary weapon but with the current mechanics, it's tought to do.
I think CCP should introduce high slot drone mods that do the following:
1. Add bandwidth 2. Increase drone EHP 3. Increase number of drones in space (maybe to a limit of 7 drones total) 4. Repair drones while they are in the drone bay 5. Overheat drone stats (a scripted module that can boost dps, speed, tracking etc)
And if CCP are are wondering, yes i am available to help design this. They see me trolling, they hating... |
Scrutt5
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
On the flip side of the coin
To add drones to your overview in a gang/fleet fight brings friendly drones to the overview making your apparently awful weapon amazing
Realistically we cant spare the time to lock your drones while you nano out to 100k and keep damage on the field.
This is purely a pve issue i assume.
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Scrutt5
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Leela Sirene wrote:Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF That's exactly what has to be done. I absolutely support this idea. A simple One Klick Weapon System like the all the other weapon systems in game. Activate and they will do their job. Deactivate and they will come back. As easy as that. Of course that might not be all. I'm pretty sure this would need certain additional options in order to manage your drones but the basic idea is pretty much what it needs to be when it comes to actually deploy them on the field. Because right now handling drones is just plain terrible. Louis deGuerre wrote: - Can't tell which drones are damaged in drone bay - Can't repair drones in drone bay - Huge signature (even more boosted when MWD-ing ?) makes drones instadead when AI decides to shoot them limiting their travel range to < 10km - Drones lag on commands, especially the drones under fire.
That's what I mean by plain terrible. With all it's flaws handling drones seems like a unfinished Jesus feature of former EVE times. Hopefully CCP is aware of it. I say hopefully because we've still got no information or statement on the whole "New-NPC-AI-and-drones-issue". Snowball Launchers? I would be more surprised and pleased by actual communication of CCP regarding this topic. Even if it doesn't touch the AI at all. Never the less, I like the original post.
Fine by me but I can already hear the tears of drone boat pilots who lose the other bonuses to their ships. Sorry wrong quote.. stepping away from the keyboard right now |
Scrutt5
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I agree that the drone UI really needs some improvements... You would have thought that Team Game of Drones would have been given that task but apparently not. Anyway, i have always though that droneboats should be able to use drones exclusevly as their primary weapon but with the current mechanics, it's tought to do. I think CCP should introduce high slot drone mods that do the following: 1. Add bandwidth 2. Increase drone EHP 3. Increase number of drones in space (maybe to a limit of 7 drones total) 4. Repair drones while they are in the drone bay 5. Overheat drone stats (a scripted module that can boost dps, speed, tracking etc) And if CCP are are wondering, yes i am available to help design this.
And lose the other bonuses to the ship I assume. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
624
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
+1
I support this message.
Also would just LOVE to see CCP comment on the issue. Been well over a week now since glaring drone issues became even more glaring thanks to new AI. We've had multiple threads, some as long as 24 pages. Would be nice to hear your thoughts. |
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
Scrutt5 wrote:
And lose the other bonuses to the ship I assume.
yeah i guess so but if you put these drone mods in the high slots, what are you going to do, fit 1 gun to your domi?
When i first started playing, i was lead to believe (through the game lore) that Gallente were drone specialists... sadly this was a lie that i didn't discover until after i had sunk skill points into drones. They see me trolling, they hating... |
Scrutt5
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
Eve is a PvP game.
As far as i'm aware, drones in PVP perform as they always have.
Are all these drone threads pve orientated ? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
424
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
I don't see where the main points of drones are coevered here. Drones can be set to assist/defend. Drones can be launched and auto-aggro an enemy that the ship cannot lock (either through lock time or ewar). How are we going to do either of these things if the launch step is missed out ......
These suggestions are half assed, the only real way to "fix" drones is to give them a full gambit like system that you can set yourself. And that would be an expansion in of itself, far from a quick fix. It also lends itself towards automation, which ccp are desperately moving away from. |
Scrutt5
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:49:00 -
[34] - Quote
I remember being able to launch 9 drones (only had drone interfacing to 4) , no guard option, no assist option.
Sentry guns didn't shoot them, then they did, now they don't again.
For a supplementary weapon (who uses the eos or ishtar in pvp these days) they work fine.
Its only mission runners who cant afk mission anymore complaining from what I see !
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Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
624
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 15:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
This is a public service announcement:
Please DO NOT feed the trolls!
They will come here, and post garbage, troll, insult and otherwise do all in their power bring the wrath of the moderators down on this thread, like they did in other threads. If you see a troll, click the little flag icon and report them for trolling. Ignore the post. Do not feed! Maybe that way we can manage to keep at least one of these threads open for any meaningful amount of time.
Thank you! |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 15:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
Scrutt5 wrote:Eve is a PvP game.
As far as i'm aware, drones in PVP perform as they always have.
Are all these drone threads pve orientated ?
Not all, no.
They see me trolling, they hating... |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 15:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
Scrutt5 wrote:
Its only mission runners who cant afk mission anymore complaining from what I see !
Wrong. The drone UI is carp. Fact.
They see me trolling, they hating... |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
428
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 15:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Scrutt5 wrote:
Its only mission runners who cant afk mission anymore complaining from what I see !
Wrong. The drone UI is carp. Fact.
This thread is about mechanics, not UI though. Everyone knows the UI is bad, why not fix it instead of removing what little decent mechanics drones have.
|
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
131
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 15:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Or you could target the object and press 'F' instead of 'F1'...... (with your drones already launched)
keybindings.. whoddathunkit |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 15:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Scrutt5 wrote:
Its only mission runners who cant afk mission anymore complaining from what I see !
Wrong. The drone UI is carp. Fact. This thread is about mechanics, not UI though. Everyone knows the UI is bad, why not fix it instead of removing what little decent mechanics drones have.
Decent mechanics? Please explain what is decent about the drone mechanic... Launch drones > click engage > retract drones
Both the mechanics and the UI need improving. They see me trolling, they hating... |
|
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
605
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
There is no need to post 'smart comments' about how the drones UI is working fine and does not need improvement as the poor CCP chap involved in testing them lamented at length that testing drones for weeks was pure torment.
So word of god is drone UI sucks.
Let's move on and post something constructive. FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
Doddy wrote:I don't see where the main points of drones are coevered here. Drones can be set to assist/defend. Drones can be launched and auto-aggro an enemy that the ship cannot lock (either through lock time or ewar). How are we going to do either of these things if the launch step is missed out ......
These suggestions are half assed, the only real way to "fix" drones is to give them a full gambit like system that you can set yourself. And that would be an expansion in of itself, far from a quick fix. It also lends itself towards automation, which ccp are desperately moving away from.
This.
The OP's suggestions fail to recognize the usefulness of assisting drones to another player, ability to guard another player, and being launched but not aggro'd yet on aggressive mode. These are important functions that make drones the interesting and flexible weapon system that they are now. Removing the ability to launch, orbit and assist just makes them fancy missiles.
Yes, the UI could use some help in the launching, grouping and feedback realms, but losing functionality for simplicity is not the way to go.
I do like the idea of drones being the thinking-man's weapon system, where we can program them ourselves in some manner, but that's on the dream list.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
I we are talking solely about drone UI, then for me it's simple. Add something similar to the ship wheel where i can preform actions with one click of the mouse. ... |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
228
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
Donnero wrote:I want a feedback which drones got the aggro, if your drones are far away its often to late to call them back when they getting fire.
Yes, make them flash red when someone is trying to target lock them. Because if we have to wait until rats actually start shooting at them (and we do) it's already too late.
EvE Forum Bingo |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Decent mechanics? Please explain what is decent about the drone mechanic... Launch drones > click engage > retract drones
You're missing:
- Assisting another player - one person can determine where multiple flights of drones go.
- Assisting another player - assign your drones to the inty for decloaking duty at gates.
- Aggressive mode, orbiting you - The instant a tackler or E-war boat does something to you, they get drone-loving.
- Guard mode on another key ship - same as the one above - pick on that ship, get drone aggro.
Drones weren't just easy-mode for ratting and missions.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
430
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:16:00 -
[46] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Doddy wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Scrutt5 wrote:
Its only mission runners who cant afk mission anymore complaining from what I see !
Wrong. The drone UI is carp. Fact. This thread is about mechanics, not UI though. Everyone knows the UI is bad, why not fix it instead of removing what little decent mechanics drones have. Decent mechanics? Please explain what is decent about the drone mechanic... Launch drones > click engage > retract drones Both the mechanics and the UI need improving.
See you did it again.
Launch drones >click engage>retract drones
Launch drones >set to assist (or defend) and get on with your real job (like logi)>retract drones
Launch drones > leave orbiting on agressive to auto-aggro on targets you could not otherwise lock (ecm drone protection vs gankers ftw)>retract drones
So its incredibly basic with three possibilities but op wants to remove 2 and make it completely basic and just another weapon system. Removing drone mechanics just so npcers have one less button to press is beyond a backward step. Instead ccp should be adding lots more. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Decent mechanics? Please explain what is decent about the drone mechanic... Launch drones > click engage > retract drones You're missing: - Assisting another player - one person can determine where multiple flights of drones go. - Assisting another player - assign your drones to the inty for decloaking duty at gates. - Aggressive mode, orbiting you - The instant a tackler or E-war boat does something to you, they get drone-loving. - Guard mode on another key ship - same as the one above - pick on that ship, get drone aggro. Drones weren't just easy-mode for ratting and missions.
Oh my comments were not to 100% support what the OP has said. I'm just posting my opinion what should be done with drones.
I don't think any of the current features should be removed. ... |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
430
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:25:00 -
[48] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:War Kitten wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Decent mechanics? Please explain what is decent about the drone mechanic... Launch drones > click engage > retract drones You're missing: - Assisting another player - one person can determine where multiple flights of drones go. - Assisting another player - assign your drones to the inty for decloaking duty at gates. - Aggressive mode, orbiting you - The instant a tackler or E-war boat does something to you, they get drone-loving. - Guard mode on another key ship - same as the one above - pick on that ship, get drone aggro. Drones weren't just easy-mode for ratting and missions. Oh my comments were not to 100% support what the OP has said. I'm just posting my opinion what should be done with drones. I don't think any of the current features should be removed.
I think you have misinterpreted my post on decent mechanics. I did not mean that drones mechanics are decent and don't need changed, i meant that the op is wanting to remove what parts of drone mechanics are decent (the ultra basic AI parts) and just leave 1 single mechanic (the no AI at all part) with a marginally more useable UI.
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:27:00 -
[49] - Quote
TBH i kind of skimmed through the OP's post, as you can probably tell. ... |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
430
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
The idea of groups being like launch buttons on UI is fine, and if you could program those buttons you would be laughing.
So group 1 could be set to launch and attack selected target like the op wants, or could be automatically set to assist, or automatically set to launch and orbit on agressive. You can then make the options as complex as you like. ECM drones programmed to launch and jam anything that has a point on me, logitics drones programmed to launch and answer rep broadcasts in fleet, logistics drones programmed to rep self (surely it is time this worked btw). It all depends how much automation you want in game. |
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
Yeah, another nice programmable behavior would be that drones disengaged their current target and attacked anyone using a specific module on you. E.g. if a falcon jams you, your drones immediately go after the falcon. ... |
Mire Stoude
Antelope with Night Vision Goggles
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 16:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:All drones doing the same amount of damage ( now everyone using gallente drone because they doing more damage ) so increase...
I like this, but I think it would be better if all drones just did omni damage and we kept the speed or damage trade-off the same. |
Renier Gaden
Marvin the Martian's Militia Anarchy.
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 17:28:00 -
[53] - Quote
Very good suggestion OP.
On option 2, the Drone Bay should only have one button by default, although having an option to split it into multiple buttons might be a good idea for drone boats. You should change Drone Groups the same way you change ammo. Right click on the button to get a list of groups. If no groups are setup the button should launch a random selection of drones from your drone bay. The drone bay button on the HUD or in the Ship Fittings window should open an interface for creating Drone Groups which are saved to the ship.
When you deactivate the Drone Bay module you should be able to immediately que up a new Drone Group, but not be able to launch them until your first group has returned to the Drone Bay. Also have an Abandon Drones option when you right click the Drone Bay module which would then immediately allow you to launch the new Drone Group, at the expense of losing control over the ones you abandoned. Scoop to Drone Bay option should also be there (I have scooped drones from exploded ships and redeployed them during a battle before when my Drones were dead.)
When Drones are launched without a target they should orbit your ship in a defensive manner and then attack people who shoot at you. However, their should be an option to change the default behaviour to attack what you shoot at, or attack what you target (behave like other weapons), depending on setting.
I think they recently changed it so if you hit warp, your drones try to get back to the drone bay before you leave if they can. The same should work for Jump. If the drones are close enough (orbiting your ship) they should enter the drone bay. If you hit Jump when you are out of Jump range of the gate the drones should try to get back to your ship before you reach the gate and jump out. |
Renier Gaden
Marvin the Martian's Militia Anarchy.
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 17:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF Yeah, good stuff! While I support this, I think it's too much for programmers to handle. They can't fix 2-3 years old bugs (like camera reset after relog), I guess you can't expect them to do this in a good quality. Mayby some jobs are too small? You ever do a big house renovation and then never get around to doing that last little touch up for like 3 years? |
Merouk Baas
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 18:47:00 -
[55] - Quote
Personally, I would suggest the following:
1. Tiericide the drones so they all have the same damage / defenses / speed, but different damage type, and provide intercept, combat, ewar, and repair versions of each size (S, M, L).
2. Currently we can bind F keys to "Launch", "Attack", "Return" and the various modes. And we can put drones in groups. I would like to be able to bind F keys PER GROUP, so that F9 launches my warriors and F10 launches my Ogres. And superload the keys: Press F9 and the warriors launch. Press F9 on a target and they attack it. Press F9 again while they're attacking the target and they return to bay. With the corresponding drone icon appearing and disappearing on a target like a weapon icon.
EDIT: Spelled out:
F9 and no drones in space - the selected group launches and follows the aggressive/passive setting, attacking or orbitting F9 and drones in space but not on a target - drones return to hangar F9 and drones in space with a target selected - drones attack target F9 and drones currently attacking a target - drones return and orbit F10 and the F9 drones still in space - error - only one group of drones can be active.
Can basically control them like we control a weapon, where one key pressed repeatedly fully controls that weapon.
3. Nanite paste should repair drones in the bay (not sure if it currently does), it's certainly expensive enough that we'd only use it in case of emergency. |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
113
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 18:57:00 -
[56] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1772981#post1772981
I posted this awhile back.
I agree with the "don't expect it to happen soon" analysis :)
|
Spurty
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
609
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 19:51:00 -
[57] - Quote
Good concept. Looks clear and follows the existing weapon systems
What we have now, where we have weapons central (ish) but drones ... er .. where the hell did my drones window go to now?!?!? over wherever and having to keep right clicking and stuff = schizophrenic combat for drone boaters.
--- I used to be indecisive but now I am not quite sure. |
Roosevelt Coltrane
Rupakaya
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 20:05:00 -
[58] - Quote
You would need customizable Icons and the ability to create groups of mixed drone types. Not only do my Wardens look like my Grades look like my Bouncers, but ships like the Vexor or Myrm often launch groups of mixed drone types( 2 heavy, 2 med, 1 light).
Find a way to fix utility drones. Most EWAR drones are pretty useless due to a combination of being weak and having a stacking penalty. |
Renier Gaden
Marvin the Martian's Militia Anarchy.
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 20:54:00 -
[59] - Quote
Scrutt5 wrote:Eve is a PvP game.
As far as i'm aware, drones in PVP perform as they always have.
You mean poorly?
In many PVP battles drones donGÇÖt even get deployed because there is not enough time with everything else going on, and in many more cases drones are deployed but get left behind because when you got to run you donGÇÖt always have time to mouse through a submenu to get the little buggers to return to drone bay.
They may do ok if you are gate camping, provided you donGÇÖt jump through after someone and leave them behind, or in large extended fleet battles where you have time to deploy them, but in many small skirmishes the battle is over so quick there is not time to deploy them. I hate having to go through sub menus to deploy a weapons system. The whole Deploy Drones, wait for the buggers to get out the door, and then tell them to shoot something. I agree with the OP. Why should it require two commands (with a pause in between) to activate a weapons system? It might work if drones could warp along with you, or follow you through gates, but as it is, you donGÇÖt deploy drones while on a roam until you are committed, otherwise they will get left behind. |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 20:57:00 -
[60] - Quote
Thanks for your feedback everyone. Some really good suggestions in this thread!
RE: How to group your Drones.. Using the weapons console would be relatively easy. When you undock for the first time weapons that aren't group take up the whole console. Just as this happens, the same would be true for Drones. You would need to simply drag and drop the various drones on top of each other for them group up, just like weapons. This becomes very important for the next part...
Someone raised a good point about my massive oversight towards assist and defend. My bad, and agreed - a solution is required.
So, my solution to that issue is to continue taking advantage of the existing way in which weapons are used.
Each module - whether it is an INDIVIDUAL drone or a GROUP of drones could look like the following:
Module Mockup v1.0
As you can see from the mock up whether you deployed a single or a group of drones you could decide whether they were to launch in Attack / Defend or Assist mode.
More importantly - this continues to consolidate the mess which is target management whether it is for engaging with your drones, defending or assisting them. Simply lock up your desired target, select the group of Repair Drones which you have set to "Assist" and hit F1.
How do I know my drones are being attacked? I've also added 'Flashy' tactical feedback. So that when your drones are attacking their module flashes Green. When they themselves are under attack, they will flash Red. When they are returning OR switching targets they flash Yellow.
What about the health bars? Mousing over the module will give you the health feedback on that group or individual drone.
What about when the drone(s) dies? The module stays in place until all drones in the group are killed, and then it shows an empty slot.
So, what is the real benefit to PVP/PVE? By making these more like other weapons systems it introduces some consistency with the gameplay. Not only that it means that when you are rocking out a small drone frigate that only has a couple of drones, alongside a compliment of weapons - you're actually able to launch and use the drone as effectively as possible without having to take your eyes off your target.
|
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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 21:07:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:+1
I support this message.
Also would just LOVE to see CCP comment on the issue. Been well over a week now since glaring drone issues became even more glaring thanks to new AI. We've had multiple threads, some as long as 24 pages. Would be nice to hear your thoughts.
Agreed, would love to get some feedback from CCP Devs re: Drones. Drone Module Mockup v1.0 / Drone Weapons Platform Mockup v1.0 / Discussion: Making Drones a Viable Weapons Platform in EVE |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1960
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 21:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
Aleks Crawler wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
That would be amazing, reminds me of the AI system of Final Fantasy XII. It could be made really simple and still be effective. You should develop your idea and submit it as a F&I topic. And, I support the OP with the dire need of a drone UI and AI overhaul. One problem that bugs me is the lack of communication from CCP on the subject. All we have is "we know it sucks", its surely usable but its a pain in the a**. Drones are the primary weapon for nearly half of Gallente ships and more Amarr ships will soon fall into that category too. Oh and this thread is well thought and constructive, don't make it fall into the abyss like the other 10,000 drone whine threads.
I would say that having an idea and developing it are not the same. But I see from your post and others, comparisons to other games with a similar concept, games that I never heard of.
For that reason, if you will, please start that thread in F&I regarding this concept, as I don't feel qualified to do so lacking the background experience that other players have.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1960
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 21:43:00 -
[63] - Quote
Clystan wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1772981#post1772981I posted this awhile back. I agree with the "don't expect it to happen soon" analysis :)
I never had an original idea in my life - which is a good thing.
(it's also a bad thing, since it's said that an idle mind is the devil's workshop, and I got a while freaking factory).
|
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
115
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 22:40:00 -
[64] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Clystan wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1772981#post1772981I posted this awhile back. I agree with the "don't expect it to happen soon" analysis :) I never had an original idea in my life - which is a good thing. (it's also a bad thing, since it's said that an idle mind is the devil's workshop, and I got a while freaking factory). Oh hell, I am in the same boat. I am sure it has been suggested before. Seems like a great feature to explore. |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 00:16:00 -
[65] - Quote
I definitely believe that a feature like that for drones would be expansion worthy. Certainly put EVE back on top. Selling the scripts on market probably wouldn't work, but it'd certainly spawn its own website similar to Battleclinic for Drone Scripts. Drone Module Mockup v1.0 / Drone Weapons Platform Mockup v1.0 / Discussion: Making Drones a Viable Weapons Platform in EVE |
Yankunytjatjara
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
42
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 07:27:00 -
[66] - Quote
not sure about the orbit but I definitely approve the merging of undock and attack as well as the possibility to bind them to hotkeys tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=599319 |
Devore Sekk
The Kissaki Syndicate Black Core Alliance
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 08:25:00 -
[67] - Quote
This new AI has completely killed one of my guy's PvE. Was using Arbitrator to probe and do profession sites, and also clear out up to 4/10 and equivalent combat sites. This is totally impossible now. Even if I do get NPC aggo, which seems more difficult now btw, a mixed blessing, as soon as drones are out they all immediately switch to drones and start shooting them. So now it's lock NPC, release drones, attack NPC, recall drones, let them sit for a while for shields to regenerate, lock next NPC, rinse repeat. There is no other way. There is no way to protect drones. If a drone gets webbed, you can just forget about it, it's gonna die. That's with very good drone skills and T2 drones of course.
So, grats CCP. If people are still doing PvE with drone boats and only minor inconveniences, I don't know how they're doing it, but I am searching the forums to see if people are.
I also imagine the long standing practice of bringing newbros to level 4 missions and such to help them make money and be friendly is pretty much dead as well. Nothing like getting on grid in your brand new destroyer and getting 20 rats targeting you instantly to introduce you to the game. |
Eight Two
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 08:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I agree that the drone UI really needs some improvements... You would have thought that Team Game of Drones would have been given that task but apparently not. Anyway, i have always though that droneboats should be able to use drones exclusevly as their primary weapon but with the current mechanics, it's tought to do. I think CCP should introduce high slot drone mods that do the following: 1. Add bandwidth 2. Increase drone EHP 3. Increase number of drones in space (maybe to a limit of 7 drones total) 4. Repair drones while they are in the drone bay 5. Overheat drone stats (a scripted module that can boost dps, speed, tracking etc) And if CCP are are wondering, yes i am available to help design this.
In addition to drone rigs to increase bandwith of ship or dronebay for drone ships. Can't be that hard, can it? Then we'd finally see drone rigs actually becoming useful (exception: sentry damage rigs). |
Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 08:43:00 -
[69] - Quote
From what i understand (though i may be wrong), Sleepers use a modular AI that works off a priority system. Simple solution: Give that AI to Drones as well and allow us to predefine the priorities, then redo the UI to be functional. In essence, something similar to the Gambit system of Final Fantasy XII, which was excellent for managing multiple units.
Also, do something about the massive delay between Drones being ordered to do something and Drones actually doing it. And make Heavy Drones not completely useless in PvE. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
314
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 08:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
Marr Aridia[u wrote:Weapons systems are easy![/u] If you want to kill a target in a mission with a Weapons system, you merely lock the target and hit the F1 key. Too cool for school. Hard to get wrong.
This is where I stopped reading the rest of your post, it may have been a good post but I'm not going to bother because of this hyperbole. Turrets can and will have tracking issues, sig radius issues, range issues, damage type issues, cap issues (also fitting issues resulting in having to make vast sacrifices to the rest of the fit) and as such require far more piloting input than droneboats.
Drones are not at all difficult to use, you just have to set up the short cuts and they work fine. All I'd want for is to be able to launch drones based on the group they're in where you can define 3 groups and have keys for launching groups 1-3. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything. |
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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 10:38:00 -
[71] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Marr Aridia[u wrote:Weapons systems are easy![/u] If you want to kill a target in a mission with a Weapons system, you merely lock the target and hit the F1 key. Too cool for school. Hard to get wrong. This is where I stopped reading the rest of your post, it may have been a good post but I'm not going to bother because of this hyperbole.
I hope you don't mind, but I stopped reading your post after you said this. I'm sure your post was good, but I'm not going to bother because of your lack of hyperbole. Drone Module Mockup v1.0 / Drone Weapons Platform Mockup v1.0 / Discussion: Making Drones a Viable Weapons Platform in EVE |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 10:43:00 -
[72] - Quote
Gal'o Sengen wrote:From what i understand (though i may be wrong), Sleepers use a modular AI that works off a priority system. Simple solution: Give that AI to Drones as well and allow us to define the priorities, then redo the UI to be functional. In essence, something similar to the Gambit system of Final Fantasy XII, which was excellent for managing multiple units.
Also, do something about the massive delay between Drones being ordered to do something and Drones actually doing it. And make Heavy Drones not completely useless in PvE.
I don't see how improving drones AI makes them a better weapons platform. They aren't meant to be the ultimate weapon.. They are meant to shoot the things that you tell them to shoot. This thread isn't about buffing them, or nerfing them, it's about making them do what you tell them to do as effectively as possible.
I agree with your second part as that is relative - the response time between issuing a command and the drones actually doing something is pretty atrocious but that 'lag' is also related to the fact you need to right click the group OR individual drone in order to tell them to switch targets which is a pain in the ass. Alternatively you could select the drone and then press F but again, it's cumbersome for no good reason at all.
Like all weapons system they need to have pros and cons - and generally there should be no 'silver bullet' when it comes to any race. The bigger picture is to get Drones on par with existing systems so that they become easy enough to use that you can spend your 'free time' getting creative from a tactical point of view. Drone Module Mockup v1.0 / Drone Weapons Platform Mockup v1.0 / Discussion: Making Drones a Viable Weapons Platform in EVE |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
949
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 11:37:00 -
[73] - Quote
Moving from General Discussion to Features & Ideas Discussion. Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Asudem
Asen of Asgard
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 12:50:00 -
[74] - Quote
The new NPC AI sucks and makes even some tanking strategies useless. Its not a challenge, its an annoyance. Sleeper AI for Sleeper and Incursion NPCs please, anything else is ********.
As for the drone managment: It works fine with hotkeys, only the drone AI is ********, maybe the drones need a little buff. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
16
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 13:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
The problems with the new AI and drones are fairly simple.
They want drones to be used up similar to the way ammo is used up, but the drone system does not support that.
A full flight of drones easily costs as much as an equivalent weapon system and there is very limited space for 'reloads' making the fact that they now get shot out of space with regularity even with the pilot being ocd about watching them much more than simply annoying. Using drones now is kind of like having your weapons randomly overheat only without the benefits... sometimes they just burn out in a few seconds and are worthless until you get back to the station.
I am in favor of drones, and any other ships entering the mission space, being viable targets for the rats, and that the silly stupid ai of one target till death has been done away with. However, if we are going to introduce aggro mechanics to EVE, we need to introduce the whole concept---meaning ways to manage aggro. It is currently somewhere between exceedingly difficult to impossible to bring a fleet of mixed sized ships into a level 4 mission unless everyone is a very skilled pilot and in T2 ships with multiple Logi pilots. Eventually something other than a battleship gathers the aggro of the whole room and pops like a soap bubble. I'm not really seeing the 'size appropriate' splitting of aggro happening. This is true of drones as well as pilots in smaller ships.
To fix the drones needs a overhaul of the entire system, or else a massive reduction in the signature of drones so that they can't be reliably hit by anything under frigate size. They need to be altered such that they support the 'drones are ammo' paradigm, or else changed so that they are as viable in combat as other ships. I'd tend to change them so that you install a Drone System in your ship which used up 'ammo' in the form of spare parts---when activated the system lauches it's drone, when the drone returned it is repaired using parts, when the drone is destroyed another is built using the parts (taking some time, a minute or 2). This way you keep the dynamic of drones, but don't cripple a drone boat until it returns to station.
For added fun give us some modules or make it a feature of the Drone System that parts are made from metal scraps and maybe cheap salvage components. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Heavy Industries Sick N' Twisted
60
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Posted - 2012.12.14 17:58:00 -
[76] - Quote
DNL - Drones Need Love +1
Show more love, please read THIS thread too and comment! Get CCP to sort out Drones! MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Leela Sirene
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2012.12.14 19:49:00 -
[77] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF
Again. Because I think that in order to make drones a comparable weapon system to the other ones it would be neccessary to make them easy to use, making them a combination of modules and the drones theirselfes. Maybe something like this:
- get rid of the obsolete "return and orbit"
- combine launch and attack/repair/mine/salvage into one single command
- add drone repair to ships
- keep a ships drone bandwith
- remove drone bay (exchange with modules)
- exchange Drones with so called "Drone Swarms" (more information on that further down this post)
- exchange Fighters and Fighter Bombers with "Fighter Squadrons" and "Fighter Bomber Squadrons"
- every Swarm consists of 100 Drones/ Fighters/ Bomber Fighters
- Give drones/swarms an actual module(capacitor booster like) "Swarm Control Unit" f.e. (small, medium, heavy) / "Flight Command Unit" (Fighters, Bombers)
- every module can be loaded with up to five Drone Swarms/Fighter Squadron/ Bomber Fighter Squadron
- only five swarms can be active at a time (either through a single module or spread over installed modules)
- amount of swarms launched from one module will act as a single unit (and can therefore just be attacked as one)
- drones might be listed in the overview as "Hobgoblin Swarm", "Vespa II Swarm" etc.
- no overheat option (in regard of the drone damage amplifier)
- keep module overheat damage visualization as an indicator for swarms getting damage (reducing the number of drones accordingly)
----balancing would be needed but swarms could still be lost due to damage AND would be prevented from being the all mighty weapon system (downside: no micromanagent of single drones) ----swarms have shield/ armor/ hull. the deeper the damage hits, the faster the number of drones will be reduced
- lost swarms can only be reloaded when all remaining swarms of a module have returned to the ship (not sure about this)
- damaged swarms can be repaired (in ship) in order to reduce the rate of losing drones but their numbers can not be refilled through repair of any kind.
- swarms can still be repaired in space in order to reduce loss rate of drones(in regard to remote hull/ armor/ shield repairer)
- swarms can be repaired when returned to ship plus while being loaded into the module (repair over time, like shield repair of drones right now)
- lost drones of a swarm can only be brought to full numbers when "joined" with other "reduced" swarms of the same kind.
- swarm damage would be directly connected to the amount of drones in a swarm (decimating a swarm would lead to reduced damage)
[/i]
This is just a very rough idea of what I could imagine how the system might work. Reducing the actual drones in space to a single unit, a swarm, instead of five individuals could also save a lot of server recources lowering lag during big fleet fights. Of course depending on what CCP is capable of making out of it. But in order to make them look like a swarm there would be needed a visual overhaul that shows real swarms of drones. (Just fair when looking at the already overhauled weapon systems) This would also lead to a more plausible look and feel of drones regarding the size of them in comparison to the ships.
Regarding the Swarms: Because they would now have numbers up to 100 or maybe 200 per module this might change peoples minds about drones being their babies and instead leading them to look at drones more like ammo and therefore making them less worried when losing them.
So please, it's just an idea and rough picture. Maybe someone of you might have constructive additions to this because as I know myself I most likely have missed some details. |
Mund Richard
44
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Posted - 2012.12.14 21:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
Wow, a post about drones that made me have the initial reaction of TL;DR
Leela Sirene wrote:keep a ships drone bandwith remove drone bay (exchange with modules) exchange Drones with so called "Drone Swarms" [i] I've tried to come up with something similar, but making it balanced is a nightmare.
Even shield hits would mean some drones lost? Could just make them have hull only. Maybe with Damage Control. Either you can reinforce/regroup swarms when they return to get them back up to their peak dps, but then you just have a milder version of the current, when one or more is drone popped. Or you can reinforce them by sending out new ones, which depending on how the mechanism works, can create semi-infinite drone healths or just make them really behave like ammo. If there is some "module cycle time" on the reinforcing, it gets manageable in a PvP situation, but not exactly better for the drone user once again.
I've considered simply having drones in space that are in the same group as act one entity, acting somewhat like one ship with as many turrets as there are drones in the formation, going with the speed of the slowest, covering each other, sharing both incoming rep and damage, making them at the same time more vulnerable and repairable/manageable, but even that really needs re-designing a lot, and not sure if it would be any better.
In fact, not sure how different 5 swarms of yours are from just plain 5 drones. They can be targeted, damged to reduce their efficience, but keeping all that in mind would be quite a bit of hassle for both attacker and attacked. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
299
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 00:04:00 -
[79] - Quote
Something that I have been thinking about is to finish put the drone groups for all sizes.
Scout Drone Role: Light drones used to engage targets from afar, using high speeds to evade enemy attacks. Velocity: Excellent Tracking: Excellent Damage: Poor HP: Poor
Heavy Drone Role: Heavy drones used to engage targets at close range, being equipped with superior weapons and sturdy defences, these drones will be able to take down almost any opponent. Velocity: Poor Tracking: Poor Damage: Excellent HP: Average
Sentry Drone Role: Stationary drone capable of accurately damaging opponents at extreme distances. Velocity: Immobile Tracking: Average Damage: Average HP: Excellent
Each of these drones would get a small, medium and large variant. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Asudem
Asen of Asgard
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 10:01:00 -
[80] - Quote
My idea: + Make drones attack a flagged target without lockon like a broadcasted target. This makes drones to first attack weapons and be a valuable weapon to encounter permajamm setups. Maybe this can balance out a few issues. |
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Thutmose I
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
5
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Posted - 2012.12.15 15:06:00 -
[81] - Quote
One main issue with the removal of Launch only, is it would adversely affect any tactics which involve your drones being a diversion (mainly applies to PVE). There are a few situations where it is beneficial for you for your drones to be the primary target, such as in the case of many tackle rats, or in some cases where tank has been broken and GTFO is required.
Otherwise, I agree that there should be a hotkey for "launch and attack", as that would make use of drones much smoother, and may get more pilots using them as a viable weapon system.
A way of determining what is attacking your drones would also be quite nice, though not as helpful as something to tell if drones have been targeted. |
Blastil
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
26
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Posted - 2012.12.15 15:53:00 -
[82] - Quote
I suggested something similar, except I would like to see it work more like a probe launcher, where you drag and drop drones into the launcher from your drone bay, then when you "fire" the drones they automatically launch. pressing the launcher again triggers attack, and a third time causes them to return. When the drones are engaged the box glows green, when they are disengaged it glows red clicking the module when glowing red will cause the drones to rtb and automatically be loaded into the drone launcher again.
this simplifies about 8 mouse clicks into 4 button presses.
Any ship with a drone bay would automatically have this launcher attached to their F9 button or something, forgoing the need to click repetedly. This would also enable some interesting things, like allowing drone pilots to react quicker to a changing battlefield by pre-loading drones into the drone bay, and allow CCP to do more with contextual menus, so that new players don't have to know before hand that you can only project drones out to 40 km, or that you can only launch as many as you have drones skill to.
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