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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.12.13 05:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Recently CCP Soundwave mentioned during the New Eden Open that they are working hard to fix "bad" complexity in EVE. We're not talking about complex manufacturing chains here (which are good).. We're talking about parts of the game which prohibit efficient workflow, or had little thought put into them during their initial implementation.
So, what's the problem? Well, recently the forums have been flooded with tears from Drones Boat Pilots because the AI became a whole lot creepier by preying on little drones more regularly. I have no issue with that, I think it's great to challenge the players.. But that's not actually the source of frustration. It seems that drones as a weapons platform were so complicated to manage that they ended up taking a backseat in most PVP situations, in order to find a home with PVE players. But it is now the amount of micromanagement required even during PVE that has people flooding the forums with their tears. And fair call, to be honest.
Weapons systems are easy! If you want to kill a target in a mission with a Weapons system, you merely lock the target and hit the F1 key. Too cool for school. Hard to get wrong. Works extremely well in PvP too! Sure, some damage is delayed, like Launcher damage - but hey, you still only need to hit one button to start reigning terror on your target. Fun!
Drones systems are a mess! On the other hand, if you want to kill a target in a mission with a Drone system, you need to right click your group of drones and select 'deploy'. Then in some cases, in order for them to attack the right target you need to right click them again tell them to engage your locked target. Oh yeah, now before someone brings it up - I'm going to trade 'unlimited ammo' for 'travel time' so lets just say those two things cancel themselves out.. OK? But still, gosh that's a lot of micromanagement just to get all the things killed with drones, no?
Well, how does one propose to solve this issue? My solution is by no means a perfect solution so I hope that in this thread we can get a consensus running on what the best method of managing drones could possibly be and then we politely make enough noise so that CCP take note, and look to implement these changes sooner rather than later..
I've got two 'concepts' for drone management I want to put forward.. One is straight forward and based on existing systems and technology already in place, the other is a bit more radical and would require some effort on the part of CCP. Both solutions offer the same result: A faster, easier, smarter approach to the management of drones in order to make them a viable weapons platform in EVE.
So.. this is it, put forward your suggestions on how you think the management of drones could be improved in EVE.
Please do not post nerfing or buffing drone suggestions here as this is not what this thread is about. Thank you!
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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.12.13 05:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Simply Spreadsheets Drone Management Concept 1:
Overview: Remove 'orbiting' of drones altogether (it's an illogical mechanic). Turn drone actions into hot keys - so that operating drones is like operating weapons system. Mouse on the targets, fingers on the firing buttons.
UI: Keep the drone overview box and all associated options. Launch: You won't need to do this anymore. Attack: Pressing [Hotkey 1] will instantly launch the group of drones you have pre selected and they will instantly go after the target you have selected (as if you had launched them, had them orbiting, and just selected "engage target") Return: Pressing [Hotkey 2] will disengage all drones and make them return to hangar as fast as they possibly can. Grouping: You will be encouraged to use grouping to predefine which types of drones you launch. You can manage this from the UI.
Summary: During PVP or PVE your focus should be on attacking, kiting, tank management etc. It turns out that the "orbiting" feature of Drones is simply the result of an over complicated launch mechanic. The only reason people deploy drones in advanced is to save them the extra step required in order to engage targets with drones. This solution solves that issue and makes drones a much more viable weapons system for PVP and PVE.
Requirements: Addition of "Launch to Attack" quick key to Custom Key Mapping. Addition of "Return to Ship" quick key to Custom Key Mapping. Highlighted Group from Drones Overview needs to be associated with either Hotkey at time of pressing.
Drones Weapon System 2.0:
Overview: Completely overhaul drone interface to become a real weapons system. Remove "Drone" overview. Add "Drone Bay" modules to Weapons Console UI. Remove 'orbiting' of drones altogether (it's an illogical mechanic).
UI: Remove the Drones overview. Replace it with "Drone Bay" modules that appear when you first undock in the Weapons Console. You rearrange and group your drones based on types you have available in your drone bay. If you had 5 Hobgoblins, they would appear as 5 Hobgoblin Modules. You can rearrange them as you please, you can group them. More discussions required around managing large capacities of drones.. Launch: You won't need to do this anymore. Attack: If you have moved your "Group of Hobgoblins" into slot 1 - you will need only press F1 to launch your drones instantly from your bay and onto your selected target. Return: Pressing the same key "F1" in this example, will disengage that slot's GROUP of drones and make them return to hangar as fast as they possibly can. Grouping: You will be encouraged to use grouping to predefine which types of drones you launch. If you had 2 Hobgoblins in slot 1, and 2 ECM Hornets in slot 2 you would press F1 and F2 and both would launch (provided you have sufficient bandwidth) towards your target. If you hit F2 again (deactivating the module), the ECM Hornets would return. If you then selected another target and hit F2 the ECM would switch targets and go after your new target.
Summary: Inline with CCP's move towards consolidation of systems that are complicated, this is (in my humble opinion) the most logical approach to making drones a viable weapons platform that can be easily used in PVE and PVP. No need to buff, no need to nerf, just improve the way in which this weapons system is actually used by players. I for one would certainly like to use drones in PVP more often, but the fact of the matter is they're too time consuming.
Requirements: A lot of effort by CCP. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
234
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Posted - 2012.12.13 05:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:
Requirements: A lot of effort by CCP.
theres yer problem
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1893
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Marr Aridia wrote:Requirements: A lot of effort by CCP. theres yer problem Dead in the water...? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.12.13 06:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE..
http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF |
Samroski
Games Inc.
90
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Posted - 2012.12.13 06:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
I support this suggestion fully.
Make small icons that we can click to give commands to drones. Right-clicking and selecting options from menus, while your shields are going down is a royal pain. Happiness is a warm gun. |
Bing Khagah
Hedion University Amarr Empire
15
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Posted - 2012.12.13 06:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Recently CCP Soundwave mentioned during the New Eden Open that they are working hard to fix "bad" complexity in EVE. We're not talking about complex manufacturing chains here (which are good).. We're talking about parts of the game which prohibit efficient workflow, or had little thought put into them during their initial implementation.
What, like deliberately introducing a bug that requires stupid user interaction to evade npc drone agro?
Marr Aridia wrote: So.. this is it, put forward your suggestions on how you think the management of drones could be improved in EVE.
Drones were fine until this patch targeted them specifically. Using the new UI. That bugged and kept a perma lock on them. From 300km. |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
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Posted - 2012.12.13 06:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bing Khagah wrote:Drones were fine until this patch targeted them specifically. Using the new UI. That bugged and kept a perma lock on them. From 300km.
Drones as a weapon are fine. The introduction of the Sleeper AI has just increased the amount of management a PVE pilot has to apply to organising the to-and-fro of his fleet of drones instead of focusing on the tactical situation at hand. That is indeed, very frustrating. Funnily enough it's the same reason that drones are not usually used in 1v1 PVP situations.. Too much work, when you need to be focusing on other things to stay alive/kill your target.
In order to make drones a viable weapons platform for PVP and PVE - the interface/management of said weapons system needs to be improved drastically so that creative tactical drone use can replace this 'set and forget' PVE only weapon system.
I'm absolutely certain that if you were able to control the deployment and retreat of drones simply by hitting F1 keys not only would PVE'ing with Drones be more fun, but PVP for Gallente and Amarr pilots would become a whole lot more interesting.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
803
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Posted - 2012.12.13 06:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:It seems that drones as a weapons platform were so complicated to manage that they ended up taking a backseat in most PVP situations
Bullshit. Release drones, press F, monitor drone hp bars if you feel this is important (hint: often is, but no more effort involved than watch your own ships health).
The only real problem with drones is two fold: 1) clunky AI, their sudden target swapping midfight in both PvP and PvE is less-than-appealing, and not returning when told repeatedly is like trying to walk a poorly trained dog.. 2) CCP being .."less than smart".. with this new AI. Drones should not get that excessive aggro from NPCs, simply put. You can't reliably use drones now in PvE if NPCs are too many on grid, and if you want to engage a target that is PvEing - drones will get chewed up (your own ship too, which is another non-drone related issue). Drones just don't have very nice health buffer, combined with pulsing of MWD with not-very-bright AI makes them very very prone to die.
The only fix drones need is this: Less aggro from NPCs, or greatly reduced damage done to drones by NPCs (we're talking in the 10-20% of current levels, max). And a fix to their irrational behaviours, combined with a much-needed re-assurance that they DO come back when you yell at them.
But it's bullshit to call this "complicated to manage" or being "backseat" in most PvP situations. It's not the drones fault that people like to blob and warp around on grid. If people chose to not fight smallscale, but to blob and warp nonstop, it's their own fault for creating a poor fighting environment for that kind of combat. And how hard is it to tell drones to attack/return.. AFK-cloaking in a system near you. |
Ayx Shewma
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.12.13 07:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Maybe, at the very least, separate drone bays for each size and a 'launch' hotkey for each bay.
Or a much more customizable group(ing) system with much more flexibility in hotkey assignments. Say I create a group called 'hob'. I can then hit ESC, go to shortcuts and my 'hob' group is in there where I can assign a key for launching that group.
Personally, I have no problem hitting _ to launch, _to attack, and _ to recall. If they want to change it to buttons, that's fine too, I was just throwing this out as a 'minimal/quick change'. |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1952
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Posted - 2012.12.13 07:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
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Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.12.13 07:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
What an incredible idea! I would definitely support this.
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Dheeradj Nurgle
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
26
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Posted - 2012.12.13 08:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
I like this, though I think actually making it happen would be a lot of work.(If it's even viable) |
Irya Boone
Escadron leader
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
There the things to do to solve all the problem with drones .
Remove Aggressive mode = No more afk in mission and for miners in belt.
Micro jump drive of drones to target = instant damage on target
All drones doing the same amount of damage ( now everyone using gallente drone because they doing more damage ) so increase...
Damage amplifier : Increase the damage modification / penalty= decrease durability of drones.
And for GOD sake give drones Boat Real Bonuses for drones not only the poor 10% hit bonus
X% hit bonus +X% optimal range +X% tracking speed + X% opti range etc etc
For example for The Domi X=10 or 15 :))
And for fixing the SIN .... X =30..... as the sin ( even it's not really a drone Boat ) has less tank than the dominix
There is no effort to do , nothing to re-code just simple modification.
Fix the aggro of NPC on drones AND just remove the aggressive if you want to butt-hurt AFK missions runner. Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
65
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF
Yeah, good stuff! While I support this, I think it's too much for programmers to handle. They can't fix 2-3 years old bugs (like camera reset after relog), I guess you can't expect them to do this in a good quality. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Pretty GuyYeah
35
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Posted - 2012.12.13 09:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
I very much agree with the fact that drones need either a buff or a complete revamp to compenstate for the changes made in Retribtution. Remove local. Revamp or buff drones. Buff low and nullsec. Limit null camping possibilities. |
Marr Aridia
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 10:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:There the things to do to solve all the problem with drones .
Remove Aggressive mode = No more afk in mission and for miners in belt.
Micro jump drive of drones to target = instant damage on target
All drones doing the same amount of damage ( now everyone using gallente drone because they doing more damage ) so increase...
Damage amplifier : Increase the damage modification / penalty= decrease durability of drones.
And for GOD sake give drones Boat Real Bonuses for drones not only the poor 10% hit bonus
X% hit bonus +X% optimal range +X% tracking speed + X% opti range etc etc
For example for The Domi X=10 or 15 :))
And for fixing the SIN .... X =30..... as the sin ( even it's not really a drone Boat ) has less tank than the dominix
There is no effort to do , nothing to re-code just simple modification.
Fix the aggro of NPC on drones AND just remove the aggressive if you want to butt-hurt AFK missions runner.
As I stated in my original post, please refrain from discussing nerfing/buffing in this thread.
Whilst I can appreciate you enthusiasm for buffing the crap out of drones, even the smallest dps weapons can be lethal when used effectively.. that is what this thread is about, making it so that a clunky weapons platform can be utilised as efficiently as possible by the player base new and old. Only once this fundamental issue is repaired can the discussions of buffing or nerfing truly be understood.
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Aleks Crawler
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.13 11:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
That would be amazing, reminds me of the AI system of Final Fantasy XII. It could be made really simple and still be effective. You should develop your idea and submit it as a F&I topic.
And, I support the OP with the dire need of a drone UI and AI overhaul.
One problem that bugs me is the lack of communication from CCP on the subject. All we have is "we know it sucks", its surely usable but its a pain in the a**.
Drones are the primary weapon for nearly half of Gallente ships and more Amarr ships will soon fall into that category too.
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Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
603
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
- Can't tell which drones are damaged in drone bay - Can't repair drones in drone bay - Huge signature (even more boosted when MWD-ing ?) makes drones instadead when AI decides to shoot them limiting their travel range to < 10km - Drones lag on commands, especially the drones under fire.
Decreasing the signature with a factor of ten would be a good start. FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode Mildly Sober
49
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Posted - 2012.12.13 13:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc.
I don't expect it to happen soon.
This could be the best idea I've seen in GD for a long time! Awesome.
Reminds me of dragon age origins with the complex behaviour programming mod.
It would also mean that the best drone pilots would be those who can think in programming and logic terms, which I would love.
The script you write for your drones could be loaded like ammo and the best ones could be sold on the market (with the code hidden from anyone but the original author). |
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Zofe Stormcaller
Shogun's Samurai Unclaimed.
17
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Posted - 2012.12.13 13:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have 3 buttons on my command pad mapped to "Shoot target", "Return and orbit" and "Return to bay".
Professional Gallente. |
Leela Sirene
The Scope Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.12.13 13:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF
That's exactly what has to be done. I absolutely support this idea. A simple One Klick Weapon System like the all the other weapon systems in game.
Activate and they will do their job. Deactivate and they will come back.
As easy as that. Of course that might not be all. I'm pretty sure this would need certain additional options in order to manage your drones but the basic idea is pretty much what it needs to be when it comes to actually deploy them on the field. Because right now handling drones is just plain terrible.
Louis deGuerre wrote: - Can't tell which drones are damaged in drone bay - Can't repair drones in drone bay - Huge signature (even more boosted when MWD-ing ?) makes drones instadead when AI decides to shoot them limiting their travel range to < 10km - Drones lag on commands, especially the drones under fire.
That's what I mean by plain terrible. With all it's flaws handling drones seems like a unfinished Jesus feature of former EVE times. Hopefully CCP is aware of it. I say hopefully because we've still got no information or statement on the whole "New-NPC-AI-and-drones-issue".
Snowball Launchers? I would be more surprised and pleased by actual communication of CCP regarding this topic. Even if it doesn't touch the AI at all. Never the less, I like the original post. |
Donnero
Arliuhtan
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 13:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
I want a feedback which drones got the aggro, if your drones are far away its often to late to call them back when they getting fire.
On the othe rhand it may helps if NPC's doesnt event insta locks drones, if you try to lock a npc web drone you know ho wlong it takes, fu.. npc are cheating |
iskflakes
Magnets Inc.
150
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Seems like a good idea to me. Track your wealth with EVEStats - https://ohheck.co.uk/EVEStats/home.php |
Velocifero
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
3
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Posted - 2012.12.13 14:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Marr Aridia wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Would be outright wonderful if we could script our own drone commands, like a little text entry box, and a scripting language we could learn. All would be run from the clients, with a wide range of "directives" and "subjunctive algorithms". Set thresholds for them, return automatically on certain conditions like damage, target priority, etc. What an incredible idea! I would definitely support this.
+1 for this. It would enable another level of functionality, and encourage players to be even more creative with their tactics and be able to recall them situationally.
There could actually be the potential for many modules to have scripting functions. I would definitely pre-program my group of artillery to resume firing following reload.
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
505
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
I agree that the drone UI really needs some improvements... You would have thought that Team Game of Drones would have been given that task but apparently not.
Anyway, i have always though that droneboats should be able to use drones exclusevly as their primary weapon but with the current mechanics, it's tought to do.
I think CCP should introduce high slot drone mods that do the following:
1. Add bandwidth 2. Increase drone EHP 3. Increase number of drones in space (maybe to a limit of 7 drones total) 4. Repair drones while they are in the drone bay 5. Overheat drone stats (a scripted module that can boost dps, speed, tracking etc)
And if CCP are are wondering, yes i am available to help design this. They see me trolling, they hating... |
Scrutt5
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
On the flip side of the coin
To add drones to your overview in a gang/fleet fight brings friendly drones to the overview making your apparently awful weapon amazing
Realistically we cant spare the time to lock your drones while you nano out to 100k and keep damage on the field.
This is purely a pve issue i assume.
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Scrutt5
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Leela Sirene wrote:Marr Aridia wrote:Here's a mock up of how I imagine Drones to be most effectively managed as a weapons platform in EVE.. http://pbrd.co/UEEAlF That's exactly what has to be done. I absolutely support this idea. A simple One Klick Weapon System like the all the other weapon systems in game. Activate and they will do their job. Deactivate and they will come back. As easy as that. Of course that might not be all. I'm pretty sure this would need certain additional options in order to manage your drones but the basic idea is pretty much what it needs to be when it comes to actually deploy them on the field. Because right now handling drones is just plain terrible. Louis deGuerre wrote: - Can't tell which drones are damaged in drone bay - Can't repair drones in drone bay - Huge signature (even more boosted when MWD-ing ?) makes drones instadead when AI decides to shoot them limiting their travel range to < 10km - Drones lag on commands, especially the drones under fire.
That's what I mean by plain terrible. With all it's flaws handling drones seems like a unfinished Jesus feature of former EVE times. Hopefully CCP is aware of it. I say hopefully because we've still got no information or statement on the whole "New-NPC-AI-and-drones-issue". Snowball Launchers? I would be more surprised and pleased by actual communication of CCP regarding this topic. Even if it doesn't touch the AI at all. Never the less, I like the original post.
Fine by me but I can already hear the tears of drone boat pilots who lose the other bonuses to their ships. Sorry wrong quote.. stepping away from the keyboard right now |
Scrutt5
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
7
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Posted - 2012.12.13 14:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I agree that the drone UI really needs some improvements... You would have thought that Team Game of Drones would have been given that task but apparently not. Anyway, i have always though that droneboats should be able to use drones exclusevly as their primary weapon but with the current mechanics, it's tought to do. I think CCP should introduce high slot drone mods that do the following: 1. Add bandwidth 2. Increase drone EHP 3. Increase number of drones in space (maybe to a limit of 7 drones total) 4. Repair drones while they are in the drone bay 5. Overheat drone stats (a scripted module that can boost dps, speed, tracking etc) And if CCP are are wondering, yes i am available to help design this.
And lose the other bonuses to the ship I assume. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
624
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 14:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
+1
I support this message.
Also would just LOVE to see CCP comment on the issue. Been well over a week now since glaring drone issues became even more glaring thanks to new AI. We've had multiple threads, some as long as 24 pages. Would be nice to hear your thoughts. |
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