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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:07:00 -
[1]
CSM5 Meeting 005 will take place Sunday 25 July 2010 at 16:30 EVE time. All CSM5 Delegates and Alternates are invited to attend.
Issue submission deadline is 23 July 2010 at 18:00. To submit an issue, CSM Delegates must reply to this thread listing the issue name and appropriate links to Assembly Hall thread and related CSM wiki. Discussion will be limited to a max of 9 issues; delegates may list multiple issues for consideration. Listed issues will be addressed in rotating order, 1 per delegate, until the max is reached.
Note to Community: We are piloting a 2nd Saturday/4th Sunday meeting schedule through July.
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Agenda
A. Introduction -- Roll Call -- Reminders
B. Issues
C. Other Business
Life In Low Sec |
Korvin
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Posted - 2010.07.11 21:54:00 -
[2]
*reserved*
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.11 22:17:00 -
[3]
Can i submit issues yet or should we be waiting for an official announcement of my csm confirmation?
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.12 02:33:00 -
[4]
Originally by: mazzilliu Can i submit issues yet or should we be waiting for an official announcement of my csm confirmation?
Go ahead and submit; we've got two weeks to get your official status sorted with CCP. Plenty of time, amirite?
Life In Low Sec |
Lord XSiV
Amarr Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2010.07.12 02:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mynxee CSM5 Meeting 005 will take place Sunday 25 July 2010 at 16:30 EVE time. All CSM5 Delegates and Alternates are invited to attend.
Issue submission deadline is 23 July 2010 at 18:00. To submit an issue, CSM Delegates must reply to this thread listing the issue name and appropriate links to Assembly Hall thread and related CSM wiki. Discussion will be limited to a max of 9 issues; delegates may list multiple issues for consideration. Listed issues will be addressed in rotating order, 1 per delegate, until the max is reached.
Note to Community: We are piloting a 2nd Saturday/4th Sunday meeting schedule through July.
=============================
Agenda
A. Introduction -- Roll Call -- Reminders
B. Issues
C. Other Business
How about submitting something that the player base actually wants, say like dismissing the CSM entirely.
After all it only garners a max 12.6% of interest from the player base. It doesn't actually improve anything in the game. A complete waste of resources.
Stating a problem without a solution isn't very beneficial, so here are some suggestions:
1. Replace CSM with Eve-Tv. The number of viewers for the last tournament exceeded the voter turnout for the last CSM. That in itself is goo enough justification to get rid of the CSM. 2. Replace the CSM by hiring a person to go through the forums and bring up valid suggestions for improvement. Far more effective than the CSM (the members of which who are only in the CSM for the free trip to Iceland and to get sensitive info to benefit their alliances) and most importantly, less costly.
And if this doesn't strike the CSM's fancy (which most likely won't) how about adding in an additional voting option for things such as Eve-TV or abolish the CSM on the ballot for the next election.
Oh and a pro-trip; stop trying to act like you are relevant in changing things. All this formality garbage is for nothing; no software production house takes its player base seriously for suggestions so you can drop the charade.
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Lumy
Minmatar eXceed Inc. HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.12 14:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
How about submitting something that the player base actually wants, say like dismissing the CSM entirely.
After all it only garners a max 12.6% of interest from the player base. It doesn't actually improve anything in the game. A complete waste of resources.
YOU are not the player base.
Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS. |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.07.12 14:59:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lumy
YOU are not the player base.
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Krans Hopeson
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lumy
YOU are not the player base.
QFT.
Can I suggest that the CSM add "Progress update on CCP deliverables" as one of the standing agenda items for fortnightly meetings? Why not make keeping CCP on their toes w.r.t. CSM issues an obvious part of the official business of the CSM? -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask." |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Krans Hopeson Can I suggest that the CSM add "Progress update on CCP deliverables" as one of the standing agenda items for fortnightly meetings? Why not make keeping CCP on their toes w.r.t. CSM issues an obvious part of the official business of the CSM?
Stellar idea (see what I did thar?!). Consider it done! *points to agenda*
Life In Low Sec |
Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:20:00 -
[10]
In light of the content of the summit minutes and CCP's statement that they will not be undertaking meaningful work on existing features for 12-18 months, is there really any point in looking for issues to raise? I don't mean to knock you guys - you've done a good job in showing just how little CCP thinks of its customers' wants and expectations. However, there are already a huge number of things in the CSM backlog, and many of those things are vastly more important (and well-supported) than anything that is realistically likely to be raised between now and the next expansion. Trawling for inconsequential issues that will just be buried in the backlog anyway (and then, given CCP's attitiude, probably prioritised above more important things if/when they get over their fixation with the New Shinies) kind of smacks of make-work, tbh
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Xiomaraa
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus In light of the content of the summit minutes and CCP's statement that they will not be undertaking meaningful work on existing features for 12-18 months, is there really any point in looking for issues to raise? ...
^
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Krans Hopeson
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:29:00 -
[12]
I think it might be a good idea for the CSM to have a fairly in-depth discussion about whether the current way that the CSM works between major Iceland summits is practical going forward, particularly in the light of the results of the June meeting.
Adding up to 9 new issues to the backlog every couple of weeks doesn't seem to me to be sustainable. The issues seem to vary wildly in scale (from trivial fixes to major expansions), and timeliness (from urgent action required to wishlist).
It seems to me that the CSM should seriously consider putting less effort into sending new issues CCP's way, and more into championing older but very critical issues. To some extent, I think the CSM are already doing this -- I was pleased to note in particular the amount of time they spent pushing for FW and lowsec to be fixed in this last round of meetings with CCP -- but I think that the split between creating new issues and maintaining old ones is still not quite balanced.
CCP have promised to give the CSM more insight into the status of the backlog, and I look forward to hearing about how you intend to make the most of it. -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask." |
Mongo Edwards
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Posted - 2010.07.13 22:55:00 -
[13]
Maybe, instead of raising new issues (since CCP won't fix any for a while) the CSM goes through and prioritizes/updates old feature ideas so that when CCP does get around to fixing things they know which ones are most critical to the player base. Maybe create a rough draft list of say the top 10 items and allow players to critique the refined issues for further discussion in the next CSM meeting.
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.16 00:49:00 -
[14]
issues:
Devs should play the game. this would probably just turn into a discussion more than anything else but ill throw it in here to see how it goes in the meeting
Crowdsourcing ship balancing
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Krans Hopeson
Hulkageddon Orphanage HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.16 11:03:00 -
[15]
Originally by: mazzilliu Devs should play the game. this would probably just turn into a discussion more than anything else but ill throw it in here to see how it goes in the meeting
See also this extremely related thread. -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask." |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.07.16 16:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mongo Edwards Maybe, instead of raising new issues (since CCP won't fix any for a while) the CSM goes through and prioritizes/updates old feature ideas so that when CCP does get around to fixing things they know which ones are most critical to the player base. Maybe create a rough draft list of say the top 10 items and allow players to critique the refined issues for further discussion in the next CSM meeting.
It doesn't matter whether its a new issue or an old issue or a high priority or low priotity. *They aren't working on eve* other than lag, pi, and maybe some vague "combat expansion" that won't effect mechanics just information, for about 2 years. So post your pi proposals and "combat information" proposals (whatever you think that might mean) but otherwise enjoy your time in iceland. It's hard to see why CSM shouldn't just adjourn for 18 months and reconvene when ccp might want to get back to working on eve. -Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.07.21 23:59:00 -
[17]
Here's some low-hanging fruit that I'd like to raise for discussion:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Scanning_Colors_%28CSM%29
Forum thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1355270&page=1
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.07.23 10:30:00 -
[18]
I would like to add: Neutral orcas in high sec wars
Courier contract improvements
Notification for not-routed PI products
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.07.23 10:49:00 -
[19]
DV, note that your PI proposal is already part of the Planetary Interaction Omnibus Proposal
"Show a warning (red pin icon) if a pin does not have routes for its incoming and/or outgoing products."
I am perfectly happy to tweak the PIOP to include the blinking annunciator if there are no objections; it's a good idea and it makes sense to fold it in.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Vuk Lau
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Posted - 2010.07.24 13:48:00 -
[20]
There is slight chance I will not be able to participate on the meeting due to RL commitments. I will give my best to attend the meeting, but I want to apologize in advance if I dont make it.
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Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2010.07.25 11:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow DV, note that your PI proposal is already part of the Planetary Interaction Omnibus Proposal
"Show a warning (red pin icon) if a pin does not have routes for its incoming and/or outgoing products."
I am perfectly happy to tweak the PIOP to include the blinking annunciator if there are no objections; it's a good idea and it makes sense to fold it in.
oh yeah thats fine :)
* * * Director of Education :: EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.25 14:45:00 -
[22]
Edited by: mazzilliu on 25/07/2010 14:45:37 http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Devs_Should_Play_the_Game_%28CSM%29
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ship_balancing_%28CSM%29
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Clarify_the_actual_changes_when_updating_the_eula_%28CSM%29
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/API_security_and_development_priority_changes_%28CSM%29
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Create_a_new_subsection_for_lotteries_in_EVE_Marketplace%28CSM%29
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Gripen
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.26 18:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus In light of the content of the summit minutes and CCP's statement that they will not be undertaking meaningful work on existing features for 12-18 months, is there really any point in looking for issues to raise? ...
That's the only important question for CSM now but no one from them dares to think about it.
Funny thing is if CSM ever had a chance to influence EVE in meaningful way - it is now. We can't expect CCP to change their development plans or players to cancel their accounts en masse but possible CSM resign could have a positive effect... but CSM prefer to look like nothing happend and continue to earn their fanfest tickets.
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.27 03:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gripen Funny thing is if CSM ever had a chance to influence EVE in meaningful way - it is now. We can't expect CCP to change their development plans or players to cancel their accounts en masse but possible CSM resign could have a positive effect... but CSM prefer to look like nothing happend and continue to earn their fanfest tickets.
I can assure you that mass resignation would accomplish nothing. Staying the course and using every grain of progress (and yes, there has been some) to gain traction to build further momentum is the right thing to do at this juncture.
We'll keep working issues as we always have and will make sure our priorities list is in front of people at the right time and with the right message to get proper attention at dev planning sessions. In addition to that, we'll continue to push for better collaboration and communication with CCP--which might not be measurable in a tangible sense but is critical to the process. In fact, our efforts in this regard are already getting results. Hopefully that translates over time into getting attention on the things that so many of us believe should have priority from CCP. If we all resign, that will never happen--or we'll just be replaced with others and valuable momentum will be lost.
All I can say is, this is a process. It's not easy, it's not fun, but it is evolving in the right direction. I think the Minutes from the June Summit showed that this CSM means business like never before. Just have a little faith and see if we can leverage the progress we've made so far into something that will earn your support for our efforts.
Life In Low Sec |
Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.07.27 08:36:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 27/07/2010 08:36:37 I absolutely agree that a mass resignation of the CSM would be counterproductive and that it would be far better to see how CCP responds over the next few months - the CSM and the playerbase (or at least, the forum-dwelling rabble) have made their dissatisfaction known and the ball is now in CCP's court (ugh, cliche).
As an aside, among the deliverables is a list of outstanding balance issues to be prioritised by the CSM and then sent to CCP for evaluation. Will this list be made available to the general playerbase? Signature removed. |
Terrigal
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Posted - 2010.07.28 04:12:00 -
[26]
WE all know how itll go:
1001 issues brought up by the CSM to CCP
0 issues fixed,implemented or even looked at by CCP
Good luck CSM, you now know first hand the saying pushing SH.. up hill.
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:25:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Marlenus on 29/07/2010 14:27:27
Originally by: Mynxee I can assure you that mass resignation would accomplish nothing. Staying the course and using every grain of progress (and yes, there has been some) to gain traction to build further momentum is the right thing to do at this juncture.
Mynxee, I agree wholeheartedly that mass resignation would be exactly the wrong thing to do; the CSM is doing as much as can be hoped for a group of volunteers with limited time, limited access, and near-zero formal power. You guys rock in my opinion.
That said, I'm impressed that you're still willing to say there's been "some" progress. You have been professional but frank about your disappointments after your visit to Iceland; but any progress you saw there would seem to me to have been, if not negated, then at least seriously diminished by the "Baghdad Bob" performance by CCP in the recent threadnaught.
(Some of you reading this may be too young to remember the Iraqi minister of defense standing in a press conference as American tanks closed in on Bagdad: "American tanks? What American tanks? There are no American tanks!" That was Baghdad Bob.)
Anyway, Myxnee, I respect your view that there was "some" progress in Iceland, even though the CSM minutes don't really show it in my view. But if that was two steps forward, Zulu's blog detailing exactly how many devs are NOT available to work on any legacy game features was six or eight steps backwards. And the complete failure of CCP to respond in any meaningful way to the player outrage over that revelation in the subsequent week or so has left me feeling that, no, there has not been and will not be any progress on the development priority / player priority issues.
But I continue to value your opinion. Is there a puzzle piece I'm missing, or am I just looking at the same pieces with a more pessimistic and juandiced eye?
------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Ashina Sito
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.29 18:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Marlenus ...or am I just looking at the same pieces with a more pessimistic and juandiced eye?
That.
CCP never said that they were abandoning working on legacy content for 18 months. That is what the players heard.
Too tired to go looking for the info but somewhere in the Dev blog or Summit minutes CCP stated that 20% of the development time is spent on correcting legacy issues. Now, some of those issues are going to be in the background. Cleaning up code and such. We as players may not see tangible changes there. That does not meant that they did not happen.
PI (HAHAHAHAH... sorry) Still has a development team. They intend to tweak and improve it.
The larger issue is that the players want what they want and they want it now. That can not always happen.
FIX LAG. Well, hey are working on it. If you want it fixed then get on the test server and help with the Mass Testing.
FIX LOW SEC. Well, I have come to realize that I am in the end anti low sec. There is no fix for low sec, ever It is broken by design. Lowsec is not for the solo/small corp to PvP in. NPC 0.0 fits that bill. No changes to low sec will fix the main problem which is that there are 10 wolves for every sheep. The sheep don't last long, so your stuck with wolves. Get rid of the wolves, nurf pirates to oblivian, and you get sheep. Otherwise any changes will have no discernible effect.
FIX FACTION WARFARE. Gotta say this is reasonable. People do forget they have made changes, not all popular, to FW since it was introduced. At a basic level they need get rid of the "play after DT" bonus that affects FW as well as every other mechanic that using "random" spawning.
FIX THE FONT. Huge issue. Here is where CCP does things wrong. People have been begging for a new font for ages. They have had someone in house working on the font for over a year. They just announced this at the summit. What??? Why not say, "This is a problem, we are in the process of getting it fixed. Current ETA is unknown." Now the truth is there is a good reason for CCP to keep quiet. Tell a kid your going to go get some ice cream and they ***** scream and yell "WHEN AM I GOING TO GET ICECREAM!!!". Drop the ice cream in their lap and they are surprised and happy. IF CCP says something is coming then the players log in the next day and expect to see it there. and complain if it is not. That is a player problem that forces CCP to keep quiet instead of being more open.
TBH there are a lot of other things to mention and one of these days I will spend the time writing up "the big post" on this topic but NPC 0.0 is calling. Got stuff to get done before I head to work.
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Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2010.07.29 19:22:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Marlenus on 29/07/2010 19:23:03
Originally by: Ashina Sito CCP never said that they were abandoning working on legacy content for 18 months. That is what the players heard.
Well, unless the CSM minutes are inaccurate, CCP did say they weren't working on low sec or FW within that time frame, which are the two biggest legacy-content elephants.
And I don't consider the bug-fixing 20% to be pertinent to the discussion. We're talking specifically about all of the neglected features, stuff that needs game-design attention to fix, stuff that's been on the table for years. These are not bugs, these are features that need iterating.
I also think it's disingenuous for anybody to point at the team working on PI as proof that CCP is working on legacy content. We were promised before PI ever came out that it would have a team dedicated to iterating it; that team was supposed to be "built in" to the feature.
Which leaves exactly NOBODY working on the long-neglected legacy content, and CSM minutes reflecting that nobody will be working on it for at least 18 months, with no commitments after that date, either.
I love this game. I want there to be progress. But I can't see any in the public stuff right now. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.30 01:17:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Mynxee on 30/07/2010 01:18:32
Originally by: Marlenus Is there a puzzle piece I'm missing, or am I just looking at the same pieces with a more pessimistic and juandiced eye?
Ah, I guess I wasn't being clear...the progress has come more recently, after the Minutes furor. Whether coincidentally, due to continued CSM pressure, or due to responses to the Minutes, our dialog with devs has increased on a few different topics and CCP has also indicated that there are some CSM issues that have gotten love. As I stated over at SHC, no great leaps for EVE-kind on the issues, but every step forward is progress and for that I am happy to give credit where it is due.
Having to constantly push for even incremental changes to process with CCP is frustrating and exhausting tbh, but as long as there is even minimal progress I'll happily keep leading the charge. I'm nothing if not determined when I have my sights set on a goal.
Life In Low Sec |
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