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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3593
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:tl;dr Goon drama nope |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3593
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Skye Aurorae wrote:I'm glad to hear that this wasn't some magic exploit, no isk was created from thin air, this money came from other people.
Really this is taking lots of isk being injected into the economy by ratters and mission runners and storing it up safely in the wallets of individuals who clearly understand the Eve economy and have a vested interest in keeping it healthy. actually tremendous amounts of isk were also flushed down the toilet buying stuff in the lp store as well |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3599
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?
jade i'm pretty sure you didn't read a document written a day ago several days ago |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3600
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it. https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801any comments? ...it was aryth
aryth tweeted the secret documents
oh god this is even funnier than the lp |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3601
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
let me reiterate that aryth tweeted the secret documents to everybody never has a man so smug been brought so low |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3601
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
seriously i was leakhunting with the timeline jade gave us and then someone linked the twitter and I've been nearly crying with laughter at work for like fifteen minutes |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3602
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Roxwar wrote:After reading the actual post and seeing the screenies ect of the final fat wallet amounts, i decided to see how much 'real money' the total made comes out to roughly. Based on it costing -ú22 per 1b if bought via 60day GTC, Those magnificent goons are sitting on approx -ú7,744,000 worth of isk if bought with GTC's. Thats right, thats 7.75 MILLION POUNDS worth of internet spaceship money. or approx 11.6 million dollars . However you look at this, be that for or against, you have to admit, only in EVE can something like this happen, and thats why i love this game. I tip my hat to all you goon geeks that came up with this scheme, bravo fine sirs, BRAVO. you dropped a decimal point in there, i think you did 22 pounds per million not billion |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3604
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Quote: I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you
Confirming this. If nothing else change, minmatar will hold 56 systems after tomorrow's DT, which, once upgraded, will get them just enough to get in T5, maybe one last time before amarr starts ******* them up. This assumes that "Goon manipulation" is the reason we've held 56 systems in the first place. All the Goons are claiming to do is to have propped up the WZ control level with their invested LP. That doesnt mean that the Amarr are necessarily going to suddenly surge forward now that our "backers" are gone. They lost all their space long before this manipulation ever took place. It's not like the easy money has anything to do with why we are winning the territory war. If Goons were claiming to have rolled hundreds of plexing alts into the militia to grind system captures, that would be a different case entirely, but they're not. Also, the end of manipulation of the WZ control doesn't make Tier 5 a suddenly impossible achievement. It takes several million LP to invest every one of 56 systems to level V, this is easily earned by a handful of individual pilots investing an afternoon's worth of work. In other words, Goons are *not* the only ones capable of a coordinated pooling of LP upgrades by any means. That is true, minmatar was picked because you were already owning amarr (probably due to speedtanking though). |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3614
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote: Consider me unsubbed.
this day just keeps getting better and better |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3618
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:corestwo wrote:its not like anything is happening there anymore. Well, according to killboards nothing has happened in that entire constellation - for the past 4 months. corestwo wrote:ps - there are no kills posted because we took steps to make sure they didn't get posted. Riiiiight. I believe you. eve-kill only gets your kills if you give it an api
you could easily see on dotlan how many ships were destroyed there |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3618
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aznwithbeard wrote:You guys do realize this is just a game right? and your plotting and trolling and "rolling in 300 trillions of isk" is just you like, playing a video game?
Its sad that you put all this effort into a game and not IRL.
Just saying. for many of us, thinking is not hard work |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3619
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. I never posted anything of the sort. when does your sub run out, just so we can know for sure |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3620
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Jones Bones wrote:Wait, why would they roll anything back? 5T is a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy. Lotta herpa derp in here. Because if they don't it will cost them real world money. The same people that are quoting how many subs the goons have can't do the same math? Its an error in the six figure range of real cash. dear cipher jones, noted expert on math
ccp does not allow you to pay for subscriptions in isk
it allows you to pay someone else isk to pay for your subscription in real money
hope this has been helpful
your buddy weaselior |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3620
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
AureoBroker wrote:Dear CCP: Next time you do this, phone up Akita T and VV. Or better, hire them as economists. thanks. yeah i could use some more holes to jump through like this one
definitely hire vv |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3621
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote: CCP finally released subscription numbers in May and admitted they are down tens of thousands of subs. In your world of advanced corporate maths I'm sure its somehow great to have less income and devalued currency.
dear noted expert on numbers cipher jones: you are holding the chart upsidedown |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3622
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan ahahahaha
everybody involved in this loves to mock VV, if you know anything about the market reading his stuff and realizing he's 100% serious is the most hilarious thing ever |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3624
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
"illuminati" was already taken unfortunately |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3624
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:He even used the words "back on the rise". The page that you linked me to has a chart that says they are still down subs even after the new information. Thanks.
"incarna" |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3624
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 20:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
cipher jones you have not thanked me yet for my numerous friendly corrections of you
please do so |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 21:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
re: PI "broken" items: money was given back (there were and still are npc buy orders for the parts that let you cash out) |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kethe wrote:LOL smug post about how you made 300trillion. And then cry when ccp says that they will take it all away. You used a loop hole to make the isk. It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned. Goon tears best tears \o/ where do crazy people keep getting this 300t number from |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Kethe wrote:It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned where The closest Ive found: 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale. Could be argued either way, but Im sure CCP will not do any arguing. They will just act as they see fit. that's a bizarre rule and one anyone with two accounts flagrantly ignores, where the hell is that in the eula |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Harrowedsmiley wrote:Hats off to the Goons, they did the research and therefore get the profits. Much like Enron. hello cipher jones i am still waiting for the date when your sub runs out, to prove you were not bluffing about saying you were unsubbing
let's show the world you're serious, and not like some "pro wrestler" that's actually a fat man in a tutu playacting |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 22:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :) suprisingly most pubbies are pretty amused rather than outraged |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:Does this mean you will pay me for the miners Ive killed now? I keep waiting for the ISK to appear but it never does edit: also, good effort, I wish I could bring myself to give enough of a **** about a computer game to do stuff like this but I just cant, you certainly knocked the **** out of this one, GJ. send me an evemail with a link to the character's eve-kill stats and i'll look into it we cannot have people murdering miners and going unpaid |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:from Eula:
"3. You may not use (((your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other))) patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
what you did Goons, is a direct violation of the Eula. In my personal view that does not matter much you gained by a specific game play items at an accelerated rate when compared to ordinary game play.
If you get away with this, well, such is life :) that bans botting, not gaining items at an accelerated rate |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
i gain money at an accelerated rate doing nothing by having items that will appreciate in value sitting in my hangar
i do not fear getting sreeged for this |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote: the rate at which you did it is not ordinary, and you and every other eve-player knows that. And thats why are you so happy at the moment.
"you may not use x, to gain y" does not ban y |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
this is why a poor ratting bot will get you banned while scamming a dumb pubbie will not, despite one gaining isk at a much more rapid rate |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Leon Vinisius wrote:This makes me think of the South Park episode where the World of Warcraft character becomes really powerful. Maybe they can buy a real life account with all that ISK they made. But based on the time and effort they have put into eve, i doubt they have played much of that recently, or ever.
you know, once when advising newbies on how to make money I explained it as "you can either make money by doing work, or knowing more than everyone else. don't do work"
it seems to me a number of pubbies simply don't understand the second path to riches is an option: they see 'goons made absurd amounts of money' and assume absurd amounts of work were put into it
nope, just knowing more than everyone else |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:no its a direct violation of Eula.
"3. You may not use patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."
wrong
the meaning of that phrase is given by all of the things preceding it, making it clear it bans botting and automation and nothing else, the phrase "patterns of play" is a catch-all that catches things like all the things listed and only like those |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ninlarra wrote:[quote=Weaselior][quote=Leon Vinisius] nope, just knowing more than everyone else
-----Edit-----
i probably make enough money to buy and sell you several times
Post edited. Please, do not quote inappropriate posts.
ISD Tyrozan Ensign Community Communications Liaisons Interstellar Services Department |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
irl, not just in eve |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ninlarra wrote:Weaselior wrote:irl, not just in eve Eve, yea sure why not, it means nothing. IRL I doubt it, but I'm not going to waste my time going tit or tat with you on an obscure forum about a game a couple of hundred thousand people play. Point is, in the grand scheme of things, w/e you do is completely irrelevant, cuase your space gold will soon be gone, and your account well soon be ban hammered. Good day space hero. I'm sure your mom thinks you're cool though. she does! |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
anyone related to me is pretty cool because i'm basically genetic perfection |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 23:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cloned S0ul wrote:Aryth wrote:Cloned S0ul wrote:Hm maybe this therad is about CCP under blackmailing, we can, you cant because is a santbox, we laugh out loud, do anything and you lose 9000 subscibtion... We win eve... Still i dont get it what a point here. Or it's about giving CCP some free publicity for quickly addressing a problem while also sharing the story of what is possible in the sandbox from time to time? Our goals do not have to be so different from CCP's all the time. We waited to post until it was fixed. So you admit your ally use expolit, but while they realize they do bad dirty things still still expoilt with premeditation , and now they feel fear ? yo could you put some more words in here it seems like you left out like a third of them this makes no sense |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 00:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:I believe that this is the applicable section from the Terms of Service, aka Rules of Conduct: While you're the first person to realize the eula incorporates those I prefer rule 26, which basically states "we can ban anyone at any time for any reason or no reason" |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:Aryth wrote:Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal. What's a 'Jewbal'? a group of at least four but not more than 12 of the elders of zion |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 03:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Just a heads-up Richard Desturned, this thread was going more your way before you started posting. Don't you guys have guidelines or something? no, it was going more "our way" until the middle school day ended somewhere Ad hominem, now you're clutching at straws. So, back to exploits.. oh no when posting on a forum he did not adhere to strict rules of logical proof, which is a thing he was trying to do instead of mock a bad poster |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 04:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:gulftobay wrote:Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?
banning NPC corps from the forums Yeah, because my $14.95 a month is worth less than yours. I'd recommend taking a break and letting some damage control take place here, from what I've seen your posts have only dug a bigger hole to dig out from for your alliance. Your money and isk is just as good
Your opinions however... |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 13:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
while we're on the subject: ccp please make it an option to buy multiples of a lp item
datacores will be artificially high forever just due to the hours of click-enterclick-enter you need to do |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 14:46:00 -
[42] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project. You know, we can say its a bug, but we don't really actually know if it was a bug or if ccp just went "You know, double rewarding players doesn't make any sense, does it." We know this wasn't a programing bug - the original design as shown in the devblog included cargo dropped in the lp, and people commented on it. That was a design choice that wound up putting a 2x multiplier in (and making an element of chance involved). |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:07:00 -
[43] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: "I'll believe that when me **** turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet."
unfortunately for you unmistakable proof shows you're wrong |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
in other words get eating |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
Cordially Yours wrote:why is it that the forum mods have been closing all sorts of threads lately for all sorts of lame ass reasons, but they haven't locked this one yet? because it's a thread thats interesting, shows off the game in a great way, and is really impressive
it even made the news |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 15:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Haquer wrote: Only morons dump what they're sitting on into the markets (and this is why the mineral market is crashing downward -- morons)
Mineral markets are crashing because of another 2 reasons, I let you guess which is. "mineral markets" are not crashing
some minerals are crashing, some are spiking, (highends and lowends respectively) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:29:00 -
[47] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: I think CCP are annoyed because:
1) It puts CCP Sreegs in 2 bad lights.
2) CCP invested sensible time / coding / money into FW, a feature long left to rot part of low sec systems left long time to rot. These 5 guys basically p!ssed on *CCP's* sand this time.
I would not be shocked if there was a faction in CCP that was angry about this, but I think everyone understands this was a seriously exploitable mechanism and it was going to be found and used. There's no question about that: people spotted it before it went in. So at the end of the day I don't think anyone will really be angry at the people involved because it was found: it was always going to be found. Better now than in a month or two. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:37:00 -
[48] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:[quote=darmwand] it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry. Except its nothing like that? Except where it is, yeah. it is also like a genocide where it is like one |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3708
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 17:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
it is also like a tree where it is like one |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3710
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
still waiting on cipher jones proof he unsubbed |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3715
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 18:57:00 -
[51] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: "If I keep pointing out the simple steps taken to perform teh exploit it will magically not be an exploit anymore."
I'm actually going to talk to you like an adult here, so lets hope it works.
The difference between an exploit and an unintended and undesirable use of game mechanics is that an exploit allows you, through various methods, to break a rule of the game. I will use an example from another game: Alpha Centauri, a great game, had a bug where if you gave the keyboard command for an airdrop, it would only let you do one per turn (as intended). If you used the mouse command, you could do as many as you wanted. That's an exploit, despite you doing nothing really wrong (hell many people who only used the mouse were unaware this limit was supposed to be there).
On the other hand, a perfectly intended use of game mechanics - self-destructing missiles with a fusion or greater reactor - is incredibly overpowered and lets you wipe out stacks of units in a way that wasn't really thought though well. No part of it breaks the rules - it does damage to all surrounding units, just as intended - but it's really overpowered and something you patch out or make a house rule against.
The key reason this is not an exploit is no rules were broken. The system functioned exactly as it was supposed to. Manipulating the price of an item is and always has been allowed (and is commonly used for margin scamming, or convincing people to sell stuff at a reduced price or buy it at an inflated price). Blowing up your own stuff to collect the proceeds is and always has been allowed. The issue is that once you combine the two, you get a situation that breaks no rule, but is highly undesirable (the generation of LP at a very low isk cost). If the mechanism allowed you to generate LP for free, there would be an argument it's breaking a rule of the game. But it didn't: every LP point you got cost you a specific amount of isk.
Since this is undesirable, the devs will naturally patch it out. But because it was perfectly legitimate when done, it's clearly not something that people should be punished for. When it comes to confiscating the products of the scheme, I think it's clear that shouldn't be done as well - it would be an unfair punishment - unless the amounts generated were so vast the health of the game demanded it. That's a factual question that we can disagree over, but from my understanding of the market this is not a gamebreaking amount. For the vast majority of the time when these five were dumping, implant prices weren't artificially low: they merely were at their historical average instead of the spiked post-inferno price. This is a lot of money for these involved - sadly, I am not one of them and must be content with my vast guidance system riches - but it's not an amount that will seriously affect markets or devalue LP. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3717
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ayllia Saken wrote: If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
This has existed in EVE since Entity became the first isklord by buying up all of the DCII bpos. More to the point it has in the past few years existed since Tyrannis's "whoops we probably should have unseeded that stuff" incident.
The end-game of the financial game is and always has been getting money by knowing more than everyone else. That's how you make staggering sums of money: everything else is just working for a wage. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3718
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: What you don't seem to understand is the similarities. Both are a violation of the EULA, it details this very specifically. Both are considered cheating by definition. If the one wasn't, it wouldn't be considered unintended and it wouldn't be detailed in the EULA.
It's not detailed in the EULA. CCP has never punished for a legitimate use of game mechanics that was a tremendously bad idea, and shouldn't. The difference between punishing someone for breaking one of the rules of the game, and punishing someone for doing something within the rules of the game that people decide is not a good idea is very significant. Nobody will ever advocate banning old titan pilots who used remote doomsdays, despite how hilariously broken it made fleet combat for some time. Nobody will ever advocate banning a titan pilot who jumped out of a bubble before titans were made tackleable, despite how broken that was.
Plus, you're not actually arguing anything. You're just stating something and repeating it a lot: you're never able to elucidate why the distinction doesn't matter: you have an end you want, so you simply decree it is how it ought to be.
This is a game that rewards thinking outside the box. It's why people play. That's why you can't punish it, and CCP never has. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3718
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:20:00 -
[54] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Wow, so I guess CCP will probably apologize to goons and remove that from the EULA then huh?
Much more likely than them taking all that stuff back.
Once again, you don't really actually understand the argument and can't actually make your own. You're mostly handwaving at the EULA and making arguments based on the premise that whatever CCP decides will be right. But that's useless, of course: what we are discussing is how CCP ought to make the decision. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3718
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:25:00 -
[55] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: 56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP.
It is one thing to earh 5.6m LP. It is another to get 5.6m lp donated in a system where you can't discourage free riding. You got t5 only because a group of people controlled so much LP that it was in their interests to jack up the tier themselves: without goons donating you would not have maintained tier4. We know this because you kept nearly falling out of it and getting millions injected to stop you. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3721
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Delete created isk that wasn't created using exploits that arent actually exploits
Duh Because it's not an exploit until CCP says it's an exploit and this isn't an exploit because CCP has not said it's an exploit. Therefore CCP will not label it an exploit because it isn't one because they haven't labeled it as one. I see we've reached the end of our discussion, if you're unable to comprehend an exploit as something with more meaning than "a thing CCP has said is an exploit". Ahh well, worth a shot. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3721
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:49:00 -
[57] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: So why should this be treated any differently from when people were insurance frauding like mad for isk, and actively adding isk to the economy? Why should this be treated any differently from when Pax Amarria was refinable into nocx? Why should this be treated any differently from when tracking titans were used to take over tech moons?
Or, were anyone banned for either of those activities? Got their ISK deleted? Any reactions at all?
It is relatively pointless to try to argue with cipher jones: as you have seen he's not really capable of responding with a reasoned argument or even understanding one. He will simply repeat until hopefully those long words go away. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3721
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:14:00 -
[58] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote: Just like the FW LP won't be possible because the flawed mechanic will get fixed.
I think we both know that comparing the money made from insurance fraud, by countless players over many years, had much less of a dramatic impact than one small (comparatively) group of people acquiring over 900 trillion ISK's worth of items. where did you get 900 trillion |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3723
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote: How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?
pos bowling was always obviously broken but nobody ever got banned
anywho i expect the gms are operating on a philosophy of seize first, investigate later to minimize the potential for the trail to be cold, we shall see where things shake out |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3733
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 14:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Holander Switzerland wrote:Man you guys messed up by telling them, they had no idea. You can tell because they just took everything FW away from the parties involved, regardless if it was earned beforehand. Either they don't have logs for this stuff, or they are just too incompetent to use them, or they don't care. We knew what was going on but it takes time to see scale. I'm going to warn you once not to misrepresent us in this thread and then I'm going to have your posting privileges revoked forever. Please do not interfere with our communication to our customers by inventing falsehoods. When you do the devblog on this, could you be clear what is/isn't allowed with the system, going forward? I think it's pretty clear that what was done here won't be allowed going forward (manipulating a price, then using that manipulated price), but as long as this mechanism is in the game there's going to be edge cases where you can make a profit essentially converting items into LP, though in much less crazy game-breaking ways. |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3733
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:05:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: You know as well as I do that I can't conceive of every potential future scenario to clearly lay out the lines and requesting that is really bad forum lawyering.
I'm not asking you to lay down rules you'll be held to, and I'm fully aware that if you made a general "this is allowed" statement for something and then I found a way to generate absurd amounts of LP from it that you'd look poorly on it and trying to rules-lawyer my way out of it wouldn't work. I'm not trying to trick you or anything or ask you do it here since I'm sure this requires a lot of thought, I'm just genuinely interested in what will generally be allowed/not allowed going forward. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3734
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:13:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
The problem is there's no way where the timing of value calculation isn't exploitable. Rapid adjustment leads to being manipulable (either intentionally or not: it could get spoofed by someone margin scamming, or relisting, or the like) while slow adjustment leads to cases where the market has moved but the value has not. There's a fundamental problem with a mechanism of value calculation that isn't based on fundamentals (build cost, cost to acquire from an LP store, or the like).
I know that fixing the design isn't your baliwick but as long as the fundamentals of the system remain the same there will always be opportunities to generate LP at a profit (essentially pay less than 2000 isk per lp), without spoofing the game's price. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3734
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: I'll try to give some guidance in the blog once the investigation's done but what you're asking for can be a bit difficult.
Ok, thanks. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3736
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:23:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Dancing Tree wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market. If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game? You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not. to be fair most of the fun of EVE's finances is doing things to the markets that would get you locked up in a heartbeat
don't mind me, i'm just dynamiting every oil well after buying up all the oil :v: |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3736
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:33:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones.
The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3736
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 15:39:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.
Well, they stick around a lot longer without you needing to re-spoof the price. But if I want to abuse the z0r Kazanir mentioned, it's not hard to take some time out of my busy schedule of blowing up scads of them to sell another 1000 to myself at hideously inflated prices. I mean I'm blowing them up all day, I can easily keep the transactions going to keep the price inflated. |
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