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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 16:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is a story of what happens when the sandbox gets so complicated, it becomes possible for truly magical opportunities. Greed IS Good
We went straight to plaid
When Eve Online: Inferno was released, most people were underwhelmed. Missile effects were pretty, but functionally useless; ship balancing was mediocre; the inventory revamp was a complete disaster, and most people were simply wondering what the point of the whole thing was. There was even a revamp to Faction Warfare, an oft-maligned, unfun feature of the game. Most people wrote it off as CCP throwing a bone to the few subscribers who stuck around for that sort of thing.
Most people are myopic. But not the Jewbal.
Occasionally you will see the odd forum poster that throws out wild conspiracy theories about shadowy figures controlling parts of the game, or in the case of the especially insane, Goons controlling the game. This has never been true...until now.
As weGÇÖve said, in most ways, Inferno was a bust. But a throwaway blog about an obscure part of the upcoming faction warfare revamp was much more interesting than it seemed. A small group of market and game mechanics wizards sat in a channel, put their heads together and designed a theoretical exploit to game the system. It succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
The revamp to Faction Warfare in Inferno was the single biggest mistake CCP has ever made. It was bigger than guidance systems, which merely made us a couple of trillion isk. It was certainly bigger than deleting boot.ini, which merely cost CCP some bad press. It was possibly even bigger than Incarna, a potentially game ruining GÇÿexpansionGÇÖ *** cash grab. Simply put, Inferno was released with a way to destroy the value of missions.
InfernoGÇÖs big design mistake was that it was released with a literal currency fountain, very nearly without limit. Unbeknownst to themselves, CCP had accidentally delved into the world of forex, providing a way to exchange one currency (isk) for another (LP) with only a few checks and balances built into the system.
The original theory came about as many of the theories in the Jewbal do: Aryth wondering what the implications of X may be if we did Y. Every theory in the collective is always vetted, and so, Mynnna went to work on a super spreadsheet. This sheet would end up breaking down every niche of FW into its components and checking them for leaks; much like everything in Spreadsheets Online, once created, the sheet had to be tested via running the numbers countless times. Luckily, they added up.
It was time to wreck some pubby wallets :commissar:
When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the playerGÇÖs kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.
We laid in wait. Much of what we believed to be true could not be tested on SISI. Patch day came and we immediately moved into action, enrolling alts into Minmatar FW & Amarr FW and moving freighters full of delicious zydrine/nocxium/megacyte into position. Goons had been invested heavily in minerals pre-patch, and with the massive recession all of EVE went into post CCP changes, Burn Jita, and Hulkageddon, we wanted to give them a way to cash out as well as get rich ourselves. Therefore, the test would start with a simple, yet hilarious murder of several innocent freighters full of extremely valuable highends.
Freighter Death
This also meant that we could cash out our hundreds of billions of ISK worth of minerals at prices far higher than on the market. For example, we cashed out Megacyte at 3300, Zydrine 1400, Nocxium at 900. So some of the very largest stockpiles of pre-drone nerf minerals no longer exists. Tying back into the mineral manipulation we have been engaging in. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 16:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP reacted quickly and patched this out, but the damage was done (not that it really mattered since it would merely have delayed the inevitable); the cabal had our GÇ£seedGÇ¥ LP. From here on out, the next step was to manipulate the outcome of Faction Warfare to dictate the tier level of the Minmatar faction. In order to cash out our illicit LP, Minmatar had to keep tier 4. We bought them into the tier over and over, rebuying each time they lost it and dropped into T3; eventually, 2 mega purchases launched them into T5.
ItGÇÖs worth noting that the entire time, the :shobon: coalition of the terrible roleplayers and various other pubbies comprising the Minmatar faction thought they were doing this on their own. They were oblivious to the fact they would jump 50-70 points in a single hour. To the extent that anyone noticed at all, they attributed it to their own skill, clapping each other on the back in militia chat while the cabal laughed at them for being too stupid to notice what was literally under their noses. This also applied to Amarr. On a lark one of us went one morning and fully upgraded all 13 Amarr systems to level 5. The next day this was repeated along with the 2 systems they won from the day before, allowing the Amarr faction to finally hit T2. Of course they immediately lost it.
With the gloating out of the way, we can move on to describing the actual hole in detail. Note that because this document has been posted, the specific mechanism by which this all works has been patched.
In Inferno, a mechanic was added to award Loyalty Points (LP) based on the value of the ship that was killed. Implants, ship value, cargo, etc. The formula is as follows:
Formula
The GÇ£costGÇ¥ in this equation was CCPGÇÖs own metric, which you can see by opening your cargo window or your station hangars and looking in the bottom right of the window. Therein lies the heart of the break -- CCPGÇÖs item value calculation was very vulnerable to manipulation. If you picked the right item, loaded hundreds of thousands of them into a Badger, then blew it up in the context of Faction Warfare, you could generate as much LP as you want for practically no cost. As long as you did the math right, the result was foolproof.
The trick was to control the process. We enlisted dummy characters in opposite factions, loaded up valuable items into a hauler, murdered the haulers with each otherGÇÖs alts, scooped the wrecks, and kept exploding the dropped stacks until none remained. We then converted the LP weGÇÖd been rewarded back into items from the FW store. Needless to say, some of the items in the LP store rewarded enough isk when sold on the market that the haulersGÇÖ mass assisted euthanasia was a profitable enterprise.
The original babby step was to use hydromagnetic datacores. Hydrocores had a CCP Value of 317,000 ISK (pay attention to this number, because itGÇÖs important). When we bought Minmatar into Tier 4, we were rewarded with a 50% reduction in both LP and ISK cost of our purchases from their loyalty store, so one datacore from the LP store at Tier 4 cost 25 LP and 25,000 isk. When the hauler with the datacore inside was duly murdered by our Minmatar loyalist, it rewarded the murderer with 63.5 LP. Blowing up datacores in this manner grossed enough LP to cash out into implants (at 2000 ISK/LP) to cover the isk portion of the cost of the datacore, while still netting excess LP in the process. Essentially, we were able to convert ISK to LP at the rate of 1390 ISK per LP, then immediately sell the produced LP for 1.5 times what we paid. This process of turning LP items into more LP was given the terrible name of GÇ£dubsteppingGÇ¥ by Mynnna.
We initially used this to liquidate all of our highend mineral holdings and start printing isk. We netted tens of millions of LP worth tens of billions of ISK. However, a crucial patch to Eve nerfed us by making cargo that dropped not net any LP, seemingly wrecking the plan by cutting our LP rewards in half and making it unprofitable. Not discouraged, we went back to the drawing board. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 16:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
At this point, we had a problem: we still had not puzzled out CCPGÇÖs pricing update mechanics formula. Fortunately, we caught a break. A person tasked to figure out the CCP formula was able to come up with a fair guess at the CCP Price of a given item GÇô a three month EVE wide moving average.
To confirm this, we ran several tests. We would manipulate the price of an item with a 90 day volume of roughly 5-10 items across Eve, meaning the shittiest, worst 5% bonus to electronic attack ship damage implant we could find.(this is not the actual item, the actual item was even more worthless) Specifically, we would cycle billions of ISK worth of orders to ourselves and create massive volume in said item. CCP duly confirmed their pricing update scriptGÇÖs existence by taking a couple of Fridays to launch the CCP Value of said implants to all time highs. The result was not perfect, but it was more than sufficient to do what was needed. (A special note for those MD scrubs who eventually read this after it is leaked and who donGÇÖt know how CCP pricing works: yes, we saw your dumb threads trying to puzzle it out. CCP uses an EVE wide average over 90 days updated via a manual run. ItGÇÖs definitely not a recurring job. YouGÇÖre welcome!)
From here, it was childGÇÖs play to locate a completely ******, unused item from the FW Loyalty store and jack up the CCP price by repeatedly buying the product at inflated prices in some untraveled galactic shithole.
Once prices updated, we were able to purchase LP at 81 ISK / LP.
The effort required to convert items into LP through explosions also reduced drastically with this much more favorable multiplier, sending the whole process into overdrive. This ludicrous amount of LP not only promised us riches beyond our wildest expectations but allowed us to completely control Faction Warfare by donating our endlessly cheap LP back to the faction itself, invalidating hours of work spent to capture a system by the most despondent of shitlords in a single stroke of the Enter key. While working on acquiring products, we joked that we had to limit ourselves to keeping the total amount on any one character under two billion LP for fears of the number wrapping around to a negative value! This was obviously never tested in earnest (way too much effort,) but to be safe we had to assume that the column for LP in the database is a signed 32-bit integer.
You can see evidence of our dark work throughout the economy in Eve. Open up the market graphs in Jita and take a look at any given implant. Every single one of them will be going off a cliff because we were routinely slamming thousands into buys. At 81 ISK per LP, practically any price is a profit. Of course, we didnGÇÖt stop at implants; if youGÇÖre holding Mechanical Engineering or Minmatar Starship Engineering datacores, you have our condolences as we roll around in literal Scrooge McDuck towers full of your isk. If we were just a little bit prone to hitting and running, everything related to FW LP would be in the gutter. Fortunately, we are patient and beatific overlords. Numerous publord superstars have taken massive losses as we slam buys to nothing, then erect gigantic, unassailable walls of sells at a price that ensures that any stock held by anyone is without value. This last part has mostly been done because we can.
Of course, one minor side effect of this whole thing is that anyone doing missions in June, 2012 was basically doing it at our sufferance, since we could nuke the value of their LP at will. Consider this our demonstration of how benevolent we are towards the rest of Eve Online; we could have annihilated the rewards received by every mission runner in the game. Instead, weGÇÖve chosen to merely leave them with some light bruising and a walk of shame.
The goal was to make a bit of profit. and figure out how to fix it long term. CCP was informed and they moved quickly to address the issue. The party came to an immediate end after the T5 cashout occured. So this is over, and you will no longer be able to do this. If you somehow did find a way, CCP is watching and will probably take action against anyone doing it in the future. But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down.
T5 Cashout
PS: A special note to FWeddit: I hope you enjoyed bashing your heads against the giant LP fortress of VGÇÖd systems purchased with our endless fountain of LP. Fortunately, now that this is nerfed, you can finally start winning the war (donGÇÖt worry, itGÇÖll be easy - Minmatar reallysuck). |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ? I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.
The CCP position is pretty clear. They have to protect the sandbox to some degree. However, we were careful to limit the scope of this. Profit yes, gamebreaking no. In theory we could have generated 10's of billions of LP. That would have had long term consequences CCP could not have ignored. I feel good that when they dive into the details, they will see it's not horrible enough to mess with, and it the market will correct within 30 days or so.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
164
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
To clear up a few misconceptions.
The LP isn't free. just heavily discounted. You still remove ISK from EVE doing this. Quite a LOT of ISK.
Most of the items have very large ISK costs in addition to LP, hundreds of billions of real ISK was removed from the system doing this. Total windfall is in the neighborhood of 5T. Five individuals. The majority of that being me. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:That means you guys were amongst the last to know ... thats actually quite funny. I'm actually 100% certain you're 100% full of ****. But again, please do keep on pouring on the damage control, you're pretty bad at it. https://twitter.com/EVEAryth/status/215233678631116801any comments? ...it was aryth aryth tweeted the secret documents oh god this is even funnier than the lp
I am so bad at twitter.
And the really crappy part. She told me to go fish |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago. Lots of us made billions, regardless of whether we knew about the manipulation or not. Every Minmatar that had saved up their millions of LP cashed out gloriously, albeit not on the scale of the manipulators. 8.7 billion is completely feasible given the opportunity that opened up. BTW, thanks for releasing the info and removing the artificial prop-up. You wouldn't believe how I excited I am that the Amarr have less to complain about now, this severely cuts into the "Boo-hoo minnies are steamrolling us the system is so unfair". I'd much rather have the warzone control based on the fighting merit of the two militias. If Tier 5 is indeed much more difficult to obtain, even with all the systems held by the Minmatar militia, we'll know here pretty soon, and it will mean the system is much less conducive to "snowballing" as the "losing" factions have complained about. If we are able to hit Tier 5 again, than it nukes the 3p33n claim that we only could ever achieve Tier 5 with Goon support. Either way its a win-win. You just made my life a lot easier - maybe not that of my militia, of course, but for me personally who's job it is to monitor the state of the warzone and assess the functionality and balance of the mechanics. You've cut through the noise quite a bit by allowing the war to just play itself out, without the skewed manipulation effort. This also means the Amarr are more likely to invest in actually winning their own war, instead of simply throwing alts into the Minnie militia to sip at our juice-fountain, if the days of the Tier 5 spike have come to a close for a while. Nicely done.
I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Khanh'rhh wrote:You know, if Jade does have sources in GSF leadership it would explain why he stated he knew for a fact GSF leadership were afraid of a foreverwar :V If by "sources" you mean "follows twiiter leaks" then lol :)
I signed up to twitter only to tweet diagoras. I am ignorant at twitter. My shamecube is now a hypershamecube. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
I had actually reported the issue to CCP in it's first form 2 weeks ago. They have known to some degree what we have been doing for quite some time. I assume the first hotfix to cargo drops were a part of that. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
175
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Aryth wrote:I had actually reported the issue to CCP in it's first form 2 weeks ago. They have known to some degree what we have been doing for quite some time. I assume the first hotfix to cargo drops were a part of that. Well regardless of what CCP decide in the end (even if they take all the isk back) it was a clever plan and congrats to you guys for keeping it quiet so long. And if they don't take the isk back you should give it to me so I can fund the foreverwar for 1 month against the new 1.1 wardec allied escalation fees!
Didn't I make you 8b? That is a lotta decs |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Vile rat wrote:You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. Holy ****.. Vile rat! You actually logged in long enough to post something. Also kudos, it's not often you goons impress me but when you do it's something like this. You guys did get a head start on this and your involvement pretty much prevented me from taking any meaningful advantage of what my team and I had gleaned in a similar fashion. OH well... I recommend you guys spend some time on diablo 3 real money auction house. I am making ridiculous cash with that. It's not to late to make some quick easy cash before gold becomes a purchasable commodity and then the price of everything plummets. Un-ironically, the majority of people working with me on this are from EVE.
Some of us already are. Not my cup of tea though. I believe adanthar has made 4 figures already. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
189
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Quote: I would strongly suggest, that if you want to hit T5 again. You do it before Amarr grind down the fortress. You guys are still benefiting a great deal from our work. Once they grind down all your 5'ed systems, it's probably game over for you
Confirming this. If nothing else change, minmatar will hold 56 systems after tomorrow's DT, which, once upgraded, will get them just enough to get in T5, maybe one last time before amarr starts ******* them up. This assumes that "Goon manipulation" is the reason we've held 56 systems in the first place. All the Goons are claiming to do is to have propped up the WZ control level with their invested LP. That doesnt mean that the Amarr are necessarily going to suddenly surge forward now that our "backers" are gone. They lost all their space long before this manipulation ever took place. It's not like the easy money has anything to do with why we are winning the territory war. If Goons were claiming to have rolled hundreds of plexing alts into the militia to grind system captures, that would be a different case entirely, but they're not. Also, the end of manipulation of the WZ control doesn't make Tier 5 a suddenly impossible achievement. It takes several million LP to invest every one of 56 systems to level V, this is easily earned by a handful of individual pilots investing an afternoon's worth of work. In other words, Goons are *not* the only ones capable of a coordinated pooling of LP upgrades by any means.
That is my point. you need to mass donate now to do it, before the mass donating would require more LP than people are willing to throw into it. We watched how many points you guys would hemorrhage per day. Every day since we stopped propping up Minmatar you have continued to lose points. Could you reverse this trend? Sure. Has evidence in the past shown you will, No. We think you will settle into T3 for quite some time until Amarr gets more bodies.
You gained those systems prepatch, if CCP had reset FW with the patch I think we would have never been able to do the things we did nearly as easily. Only the gross imbalance going into this patch allowed this to occur. Amarr finally will have a level playing field, or at least the opportunity to recruit and be level. No one likes bashing their head against a All 5 fortress day in an day out. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
196
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Courthouse wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.
Again.
And CCP lets them stay.
And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.
Absolutely disgusting.
Consider me unsubbed.
Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions. He bought a 10 year sub and has to wait for it to run out. Hmmm With all the ISK that goonies have made could they say they quit as well and keep playing for then next 10 years. Oh wait can you chain in multiple plex's and how many can you do ? Hmm makes you wonder. 9000 members * 12 months * 10 Years = 1,080,000 Plex's
I was already a trillionare even before this. I have only used plex for my subs for many years.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
199
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nyrak wrote:corestwo wrote:Nyrak wrote:Ironic how CCP Soundwave was all for cutting out research points for us little folks since he saw it as too easy of a passive income to give to Factional Warfare as a reward. I wonder what he thinks now? He did predict that FW would break somehow during an interview with TenTonHammer. If I recall, he even said he WANTED it to break. Probably not quite what he had in mind, but there you go. Bummer - broken toys in the sandbox, but after reading this forum for a while, I guess it is expected. Thank you for the answer.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve-online/interviews/inferno-part-one
Stoffer aka CCPSoundwave Interview In this interview at 6:40 he starts talking about faction warfare
"I kinda hope this goes terribly wrong"
This was one of my farming characters BIO's. Just incase CCP happened to look at him. I felt it might get a laugh out of them. I hope stoffer is laughing his ass off right now.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
200
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Dramaticus wrote:Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP's resident economist should be fired. Period. Done. Along with quite a few others at CCP.
After the CCP Community Censorship Protocol ("CCCP") was enacted, I obviously can't say exactly what I think of whom. (And, I don't mean of the Goons.) CCP's economist isn't dumb, he just doesn't understand EVE. Didn't he win a nobel or something like that for his work prior to coming to CCP? He is one of the best economists in the world, but he is still part of the real world, and I am pretty sure doesn't play EVE. Certainly not at the level that people who engage in market manipulation do.
One of the things i have said in gs_isk jabber and elsewhere is this.
Dr. E is probably a great economist. He doesn't know EVE. He cannot apply his knowledge to EVE unless he knows the game mechanics. Learning every mechanic in EVE is a task that could take years. Players have this knowledge already. So the guy is behind the curve not because he isn't smart, but because he doesn't know EVE as well as we do. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
200
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
MaCoola wrote:First, I hate Goons. I always will probably and I really think they are ruining the game. But, I have to say I am honestly impressed at the depth you went and the meta-gaming you did on this. I liked Jita Burn and this, is just wow. Those involved have really worked hard and used a high degree of intelligence to do what you did. Truly impressive and while I despise you I will admit what you did was pretty cool and ingenuitive. Now, Back to hating.
We deliver content!
Seriously though. I think anyone that really looks at the history of Goondom will notice we are force for change in EVE. This has almost always been good changes. The ways in which we go about highlighting game mechanics that should change may indeed be quite dramatic and colorful and attention grabbing. But the end goal is what matters.
We have long since lost count of how many nerfs we have eaten when crashing some various EVE party's. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
205
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time.
As a newer player and fellow member of FW I do find something like this a little disconcerting. I traded my first two months of the game to make some billions of ISK. It was a lot of work, took me time finding items, shipping, updating, etc. I was happy to do it as I felt I was making a large amount more money then an average player, while not investing a ton of time into the game (compared to if I were doing missions). Knowing that another group was printing trillions of ISK while I slaved to make my billions is rather annoying.
That said, someone said it in one of the posts on the first page... things like this really show that some people are playing this game on an entirely different level. For that, well done!
Edit: As a member of Fweddit (FW) I completely noticed the upgrading of systems. Woke up one morning to see all of our systems in V and though "Who the hell would waste 2 mill LP on that?". I am quite excited to be able to do FW without you boosting the Minmatar faction.. should be fun! They went down to T3 for the first time since I had joined FW.
You are not understanding the mechanics. No ISK was created. Wealth was transferred. There is a rather large distinction. If we had been printing ISK by selling to NPC buy orders, yes, that would have been truly gamebreaking. This was an ISK sink due to LP store costs. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 19:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Serptimis wrote:Aryth wrote:Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time.
As a newer player and fellow member of FW I do find something like this a little disconcerting. I traded my first two months of the game to make some billions of ISK. It was a lot of work, took me time finding items, shipping, updating, etc. I was happy to do it as I felt I was making a large amount more money then an average player, while not investing a ton of time into the game (compared to if I were doing missions). Knowing that another group was printing trillions of ISK while I slaved to make my billions is rather annoying.
That said, someone said it in one of the posts on the first page... things like this really show that some people are playing this game on an entirely different level. For that, well done!
Edit: As a member of Fweddit (FW) I completely noticed the upgrading of systems. Woke up one morning to see all of our systems in V and though "Who the hell would waste 2 mill LP on that?". I am quite excited to be able to do FW without you boosting the Minmatar faction.. should be fun! They went down to T3 for the first time since I had joined FW. You are not understanding the mechanics. No ISK was created. Wealth was transferred. There is a rather large distinction. If we had been printing ISK by selling to NPC buy orders, yes, that would have been truly gamebreaking. This was an ISK sink due to LP store costs. True, but you walked away 5T richer and made me realise the fact that no matter how long i play this game, compared to some, i'll always be an unknowlegdeable noob
This describes most goons too. So I wouldn't let it bother you. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
207
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Amnesia Amsterdam wrote:Hats off for working out the intricacies of the exploit, but why make yourself look like a douchbag with the anti-semitic language? Jewbal? "biggest jew haul"? . Dickhead.
It isn't a slander, it's the name we refer to a group of 8 guys within Goons. A hybrid of jewish+cabal. The greater economic focused group is referred to as gs_isk. I am not sure how you arrived at haul at all. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
j hext wrote:I find it amazing that there are some people out there with this amount of intellect that would waste there time just to screw over a game, when it can be done to make REAL money!! Please tell me that the people that did this are in RL rich and powerful people! If not you dam well should be! While i don't like the fact that you did screw over the game for many people i must take my hat off to you for doing this. Well done goons, well done
We make a joke about it a lot, but it is true. The upper echelon of Goonswarm is filled with lawyers, engineers and other high paying successful fields. Myself included. EVE is simply a hobby that allows one to scratch a very special itch. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Mme Pinkerton wrote:Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hell did VV or Akita T even see this coming? VV was predicting another big peak in minerals in July but guess this throws a spanner in the works of that plan how so? sounds like goons removed some ISK from the economy and blew up large stacks of high-ends. I like how now CCP is looking into taking action against Goons for blowing up their own **** for which paid willingly paid too much.
This is probably the most succinct explanation of this. It's basically just old school insurance fraud + forex + manipulation |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:"illuminati" was already taken unfortunately
Weaselior and I are both in this. We collect secret clubs like VV collects candles.
We are in one called GARPA too. Omg leaking goon secrets.
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:I was going to quit EVE because I was bored. This whole thing gave me a new perspective for the game. It looks more interesting somehow.
Content on this scale is something unique to EVE and why I play it personally. CCP has provided us the best sandbox you could ask for. We keep getting patches like this that widen the game experience even more. Personally, I hope more people come into EVE through the content we generate. It's compelling stuff compared to the rest of the MMO world. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:So, did you personally pushed a button for hundreds of implants and thousands of BPC? How long did it took you to redeem all that **** from the LP store?
G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Postin' itt because I'm part of the jewbal and reading about this in jabber has been amusing. They did good work. Very good work. This thread is all I expected it to be. Hi CCP!
I've also been too busy playing D3 to actually login and take advantage of this myself (when you are uberrich and also have a Titan, isk is no longer a motivation to login to Eve Online) .
For those non-goons reading this. Imagine a channel of 8, up to 10. That all knew about this, and only 5 did it. Because several of them were playing D3. Limited scope for sure. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Sheynan wrote:Congratulations for the money Anyway to clarify something this was after all just affecting the financial upgrade of FW. No systems were won or lost easier due to this. (So stop gloating about that Goons) This post made me think of a very good question for Aryth & crew: Did this skyrocket your standings as a by-product? Thanks in advance for the tip, either way.
No, it doesn't impact your standings at all. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:Well played. I have but one question: why didn't you make Caldari alts for even more profit? Quote:On a lark one of us went one morning and fully upgraded all 13 Amarr systems to level 5. The next day this was repeated along with the 2 systems they won from the day before, allowing the Amarr faction to finally hit T2.
I never said we didn't. Hence the CNR's on the market. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
Forum Puppet wrote:Willie Horton wrote: Not that I like guys that made post ,but for this they should remove some of their dev''s not isk.This is really slap in face and humiliating to some point.
What this story actually proves : 1. it pays up to be a goon in eve. CCP's "bugs" will not result in any retribution against you if youre a goon. remember the slip with planetary components ? they were all transformed in "broken" and isk was not paid back. See if they will take any measure against goons now. They even feel so confident that they brag about it on the forums ! .
Me giving you this history may only serve to enrage you more. But here goes anyway.
Goons were heavily invested in components that were later to be rendered .broken
We forsaw that CCP would need to do that for the health of the game. So some of the same goons involved in this, instead made outposts with those components and had them in production lines making outputs before CCP did that nerf. The difference between that and this is, components were clearly going to break the game for years. This flushes out within weeks. In the grand scheme of things, we kept this very low key compared to how it could have gone. It would not have been healthy for the game otherwise. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 23:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:this whole thread is tl:dr (did read the OP though)
so we have 1) Goons being Goons, finding a loophole in the system, and exploiting it to the nth degree 2) CCP patches Loophole 3) Goons make post of what they did 4) Pubbies cry that Goons exploited a loophole in the coding and rigged the markets, calls for bannings with thier pitchforks and torches. (ie. typical Thursday Evening in EVE online)
did I miss anything? :) Pretty much except: 1. Your use of the word exploit is different to the meaning that CCP use it for. 2. Goons supposedly tried to pass information regarding loophole on to CCP prior to utlising current mechanics (evidenced by twitter post - claimed by aryth) 3. The tears have been pretty limited 4. Much of the thread is Goons making many posts.
I think most people, judging by the thread see this for what it is. Playing in the sandbox. Albeit in a very hardcore way. The issue with conveying a warning to CCP is, they have to understand the warning. If you are not a market person, the warning won't even make sense. It's a hard thing to convince someone that knows nothing about what you are talking about, that something is "a big deal". Especially since the next time the update ran, there was going to be an LP supernova. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 23:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote: As for the way that you described it, indeed made it sounds as bad as it was. I think of it like the bounty system, only for FW and with LP instead of ISK,, and the ability to cheaply turn said LP into ISK, would that be a fair analogy?
It is insurance fraud + forex + market manipulation of the exchange rate. |
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Posted - 2012.06.21 23:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cloned S0ul wrote:Hm maybe this therad is about CCP under blackmailing, we can, you cant because is a santbox, we laugh out loud, do anything and you lose 9000 subscibtion... We win eve... Still i dont get it what a point here.
Or it's about giving CCP some free publicity for quickly addressing a problem while also sharing the story of what is possible in the sandbox from time to time? Our goals do not have to be so different from CCP's all the time. We waited to post until it was fixed. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 01:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:When someone linked me to the text of the OP here: http://www.kugutsumen.com/content.php?271-The-Final-Jewdown-The-Rest-of-the-Faction-Warfare-Storymy reaction was: 1. Wow! Those goon boys keep owning EVE. Clever bastards. followed by 2. But this will ruin the economy, CCP will need to take it all back and then 3. I'll have to go to the forums and read the thread about it Now it seems that the total sum we're talking about is "only" 5 trillion ISK, because only 5 people in EVE did it, so the long-term impact on the economy is probably negligible. And, more importantly, no ISK was generated, only transferred. I'd say, this should have no consequences for anyone except that the loophole is closed which has apparently already been done. If this was a breach of the EULA, owning a tech moon should clearly be a bannable offense.
This has been our stance all along. 5T is an acceptable amount that has no long term consequences for the game or the market. Especially when it's 5 people who are intimately familiar with the markets and whose best interests lie in preserving those markets for cashout. Anything past single digit trillions would have edged into long term consequences that would have to be addressed in some way. 5T 5 ways? Nah. No biggy. Of the 5t, 3T, is me. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 01:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nikodiemus wrote:The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.
I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^
We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 01:53:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kerensky White wrote:This thing, simply amazing. And if the monetary gains are reversed by CCP it's literally destroying 5 trillion isk that was already circulating around the game. That's a fairly hefty economic blow, especially in a period where the market's in a pretty big flux with the mineral changes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, please!
Slightly yes. Hundreds of billions of ISK was indeed removed from EVE through the LP store sink. However, most of the gains are unrealized yet and not in ISK form. They are tied up in assets. Spread out across many separate asset classes. So it's more like long term investments. Meaning, we want the individual markets to recover as fast as possible, so that we can eventually begin selling at the highest prices possible. Hence, this post does have an ulterior motive. Revealing that the price depression in many assets was us churning ISK. Meaning, buy buy buy! |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 01:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
CPT Plahnut wrote:its ok, I collect goonswarm rage for a living... massive pofit
Man, it ain't massive profit until it's so massive CCP needs time to review it's massiveness. Just sayin |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 12:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Nikodiemus wrote:The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.
I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^ We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering. You did not report the other pseudo-exploit that can still be done as I write... I found out about it yesterday about 1 hour before this thread was posted. I suppose CCP's code has multiple vulnerabilities...
We have reported several variations. There are indeed multiple ways to take advantage of this. I can only assume CCP will redo some of the mechanics to catch all variations. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 13:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
Alain Kinsella wrote:Thank you for a couple hours of interesting reading. corestwo had been acting even slyer than usual in -lounge so I figured something was still up. :-)
I'm not going to weigh in on either side. I made it very clear a while back that I've had my experience with SA back in SL, and the rest of y'all can duke it out this time. :-p
I *am* waiting to see what Screegs will say though. *That* will be a popcorn moment for sure, forget this here.
I constantly troll him for hanging in that terrible channel. However, it's been pretty funny at times getting the running commentary when we go after one of the scc residents and get live feedback in there. So I guess him hanging there brings some value. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 14:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project. You know, we can say its a bug, but we don't really actually know if it was a bug or if ccp just went "You know, double rewarding players doesn't make any sense, does it."
We mostly used some dramatic license. We don't know CCP's intention around the calculation of LP. This particular thing though was mostly irrelevant. Maybe 50m SP. It mostly meant we didn't lose truckloads of ISK when we were setting this all up. We spent billions (in broker fees) manipulating the item price up. Then hundreds of billions of real ISK stuff seeding ourselves. This only really kicked into high gear if you were willing to spend millions of LP donating to a faction. So many more 10's of billions spent in donations.
The cost to do this was sky high, you needed hundreds of billions in capital to attempt this at this scale. We blew all our liquid ISK and have effectively invested it in items we intend to sell off a the highest prices possible. Anyone who knows the implant market knows it's a top 20 market in EVE. It can hold enormous amounts of capital. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 14:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.
I would be extremely counterproductive for us to do that. The whole point is to profit as much as possible. You do not do that crushing markets long term. The markets only took impact for a short period because we needed liquidity. Think of it like a loop feeding off the market to get more capital. We would cycle ISK out of faction ships/implants/cores so that we could get to goal.
Think of it like this.
Would you invest 500b in liquid ISK to get 5T worth of assets? That is basically what was done. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 14:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
Carlos Aranda wrote:Aryth wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc. I would be extremely counterproductive for us to do that. The whole point is to profit as much as possible. You do not do that crushing markets long term. The markets only took impact for a short period because we needed liquidity. Think of it like a loop feeding off the market to get more capital. We would cycle ISK out of faction ships/implants/cores so that we could get to goal. Think of it like this. Would you invest 500b in liquid ISK to get 5T worth of assets? That is basically what was done. That would be a very risky bet. I guess, that is why you have installed FWeddit, to stop the Minmatar FW ppl to reach tier 5 again and get FW items for prices, which are competitive to you and destroy the worth of your imaginary 5T ISK
Correct. Though we didn't install FWreddit. That was just a really great troll on them. We selected Minmatar for the majority of this as we knew we could get them T5 if we were willing to spend a lot of ISK to do so. Based on their starting # of systems. It was important to get this fixed before any long term consequences to the game happened. So moving fast and selecting the quickest faction to hit T4/T5 was key. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 15:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:Amarr Ian wrote: How about you tell me how this didn't fail. I'm not saying that it wasn't a good idea, but what did happen, is that they broadcast-ed what they were doing, (while bragging their a**** off) and lost all the hard? earned ISK.
Now please tell me how this wasn't a fail.
They haven't lost anything yet, and from my understanding, the only reason it was announced was that some dumbass leaked an internal document talking about this. As for the punishment they will likely get... it will be a slap on the wrist. CCP has a habit of coddling Goons in any and all actions they take even when they are severe.
No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 15:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:If that were true, I'd expect they'd say, "Oh, and here, you should probably take back these LP's we gained because in the hands of a villain, they may then try to dominate the market with it and that'd given them an unfair advantage", instead of "hell yeah, WE B SPACE RICH!! TO THE FORUMS TO GLOAT!!!" Nothing wrong trying to make a living helping CCP with game design. The goons did this one good me think. But maybe they tried to get away with to much. And why wouldn't you brag if you made 5 trillion ISK?
We are not making any attempt to hide the fact we wanted to profit. I don't believe profit and keeping the game sane are mutually exclusive. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 15:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote: . Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
Anyway here's the fairest punishment for those 5 guys: 2 years of obligatory work in CCP as coders and QA testers.
I think CSM or "in the know" positions would be the worst thing imaginable. The reason I like EVE is the ability to conduct large scale manipulations (Interdiction/BurnJita/This/Minerals) or to speculate on patches (PI/POCO/Minerals again/Datacores etc) The CSM essentially surrenders their right to trade/manip/spec on patches for being in the know. I would consider it torture to be "in the know" and not be able to use the information. Since it means I would no longer be able to play EVE in the way I always have.
PS. Edit. Of course. I guess at a certain point, enough is enough eh. ISK wise. Though I am still not sure what that point is. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 15:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:Lexmana wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:If that were true, I'd expect they'd say, "Oh, and here, you should probably take back these LP's we gained because in the hands of a villain, they may then try to dominate the market with it and that'd given them an unfair advantage", instead of "hell yeah, WE B SPACE RICH!! TO THE FORUMS TO GLOAT!!!" Nothing wrong trying to make a living helping CCP with game design. The goons did this one good me think. But maybe they tried to get away with to much. And why wouldn't you brag if you made 5 trillion ISK? We are not making any attempt to hide the fact we wanted to profit. I don't believe profit and keeping the game sane are mutually exclusive. Aryth wrote: No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops.
And this is what I personally take issue with. You knew all along it was an error/bug/bad code/bad design (note where you "frantically" went to tell CCP Punkturis about this horrible error) and yet set out to make profit from it. And that is exactly what CCP said would be ban worthy. Am I missing something here?
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 15:38:00 -
[45] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Aryth wrote:It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not. In other words, you didn't want anyone else profiting too.
Yes. This is true. There is a certain point where it would have done long term damage to the LP markets. 5 guys cranking out is limited in scope. 100 or 1000 guys doing it...not so much.
But I will readily admit I don't want to share the markets with others. I want max profit, that means carefully managing the very fields we tilled. I don't see anything wrong with this at all. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 15:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem. This is much more explanatory than my post. Seconded.
This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done.
What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 15:58:00 -
[47] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.
Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem. A few people doing it isn't gonna break the game. 1000 doing it will. Are you so thick that you can't understand that? It's ok, my son. I will explain. Your first mistake is not reading the post Ban Bindy quoted. Aryth wrote:It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not. Aryth said "one is healthy for the game, the other is not." So Aryth said two things: - What we (the 5), are doing is healthy for the game. - If everyone did what we did, it wouldn't be healthy for the game. This is incorrect. What he did is NOT healthy for the game either. What he should've said is: "One is unhealthy for the game, the other is even more unhealthy for the game. What we did is the better of the two evils." But this is still hypocrisy because they could have reported the design flaw to CCP as soon as they found it.
As has been stated earlier in the thread. This was pointed out by others to CCP in their design thread. They knew. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 17:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]
And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket. This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt. I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game. So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it. Everything that happened with the discovery to the reporting to CCP to CCP pushing out fixes and now investigation "abuses" (as they put it) all points to one logical conclusion. It wasn't what was intended. The OP knew it, CCP knew it, and according to you, a lot of people knew it. But It doesn't matter if you want to classify it as a bug/error/bad design/bad implementation. It wasn't how the devs intended for it to be used. Or rather, they didn't expect anyone to abuse the system. They may have counted on the fact that if anyone tried to, they'd just ban them for breaking the EULA, though I doubt they'd be enough to set people up like that. But who knows, "EvE isn't fair" so it's all fair game, amirite?
This is speculation, as I don't know CCP's thoughts. But I believe it was because they didn't understand the scope of the issue. It's one thing to know something can be theoretically gamed. Maybe that might even seem desirable. It's quite another to know you can throw massive resources at it and result in something far beyond what they may have intended. Maybe light gaming was intended, I don't know. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:04:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:
True.
But stories about how exploiting factional warfare by blowing up your own ships with alts does not drive new players to a game, unless they hope they too can exploit it, and god knows we don't need more of these types of players.
Sure it does. The draw of EVE is the beautiful sandbox. Oh sure, someone might take a steaming dump in it from time to time, or leave tire tracks all over it, but that is the point. You don't get this type of sandbox anywhere else. It is the sole territory of EVE. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable. Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore."
This is also how I read it. CCP has to ensure that the sandbox remains healthy. Hence all action must cease until they have time to evaluate the situation. It boils down to scale. 5T, isn't very big given hundreds of billions a day in those markets. But say, if it had been 50? The consequences would have been too long term. |
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Aryth
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.
This was deflationary. ISK was removed from the system. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:31:00 -
[52] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:corestwo wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable. Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore." The 'don't do it anymore' is the basic format that has been used through the years to let people know something is an exploit. Is this hard to understand? It WAS NOT and exploit, til he said that. Ofc, CCP has been known to play underhanded on things like this before, wouldn't surprise me if they did it again. Especially since Sreegs is a former goon CEO who kinda has to be seen making an anti-goon stand or take huge flak for cheating to help his alliance, even tho he is not stupid enough to risk his job doing so.
I don't think you understand Sreegs. There is no one quicker to f*** goons than Sreegs. He has also personally f'ed me in the past. Just sayin. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:42:00 -
[53] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think you understand Sreegs. There is no one quicker to f*** goons than Sreegs. He has also personally f'ed me in the past. Just sayin. I don't know much about him, other than a bit of his history. I just didn't wanna look like an ******* by accusing him of going f***goons if he was still of relatively friendly terms
If anything, I think he goes extra hard on us to avoid the appearance of favoritism. At least that is what I tell myself when staring at 25b hole in my wallet. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:45:00 -
[54] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game. That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant. Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game? 5 trillion (if that is the real number) made by ill-gotten means in a short period of time. It has taken EVE 9 years to accumulate 300 trillion in circulation, you just added 5 trillion in less than a month by only a select few. Using a system not as intended. I'm sure that adding 1% of eves total wealth in such a short time to 1 alliance (the best troll alliance as well) and a select few will not have any negative affects at all... Not sure why i'm discussing this as the money will soon be back in CCP's hands, if they don't it makes a for a very bad precedent, and will only further the goon/ccp conspiracies.
You clearly don't understand the thread if you think we added or have 5T liquid ISK from this. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:50:00 -
[55] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS.
It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ayllia Saken wrote: If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
This has been the endgame since the launch of EVE. Market manipulation and speculation is what we do day to day. This isn't a new thing for me or others, this is regular gameplay. This one just combined a few different mechanics into one larger system. But if you aren't patch speculating on each new CCP addition to the game, then you are really missing out on a cool part of EVE. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:20:00 -
[57] - Quote
Comrade Commizzar wrote:Aryth wrote:Ayllia Saken wrote: If CCP takes no action, then I believe that they are effectively stating that "End-Game" for the "Eve Financial Game" is looking for, and exploiting, loopholes in their complicated mechanics. Bugs, loopholes, and other shortcuts will always occur, so asking CCP not to release buggy software isn't a practical option.
This has been the endgame since the launch of EVE. Market manipulation and speculation is what we do day to day. This isn't a new thing for me or others, this is regular gameplay. This one just combined a few different mechanics into one larger system. But if you aren't patch speculating on each new CCP addition to the game, then you are really missing out on a cool part of EVE. ****** Except for the part where it requires an army of 5000 coordinaated participants to break the reasonably intended bounds of the game feature... Lack of game balance for the fail.
I am not sure what you could be referring to. I have never seen an occurrence where it took more than 20-30 guys to participate in that endgame. Most of the times it's single digits. I do it by myself. I suppose you could be referring to nullsec domination? Far beyond the scope of what I was talking about though. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:26:00 -
[58] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:
Second, I'd say this is pretty doomsday and went on for long enough that you should have reacted to the needs of your constituency. Instead, according to Goon accounts, Minmatar FW as a whole did a bunch of back-patting when Tier 5 was reached in nearly every system. You had to know that was impossible. Further, you were obligated to listen to your opposition, who were obviously saying that something was wrong - a snowball effect.
Ahhh, now I see where you're coming from. You're just basing your reaction off Goon reports and not bothering to actually examine the system, otherwise you'd realize that achieving tier 5 is quite possible, and quite easy. 56 systems are necessary to achieve WZ control level V, and it takes 100,000 LP to upgrade a system to level 5. Thus, a total of 5.6 million LP is needed to achieve Tier V. 5.6 million LP is easily earned in a *single afternoon* by a handful of individuals. There are several *thousand* minmatar pilots out upgrading systems and earning LP. Now yes, they Goons propped us up for a period of time, but the idea that we can't ever hit it again is silly. It'll just be lower for a while due to the constant bleed that exists in the system and will require more coordination in timing to achieve the same thing, but its by no means impossible. I know *individual* pilots in the various militias currently capable of bankrolling this themselves. But by all means, continue to ignore facts and the fact that I've explained twice now that I warned CCP of the "snowball" I got all day.
I think you guys are totally capable of going to T5 without propping up. However, it's a big game of prisoners dilemma. Do you have enough people willing to donate so that others can profit on their backs. Spreading out the load obviously makes the barrier lower, but it is still fundamentally a somewhat altruistic act. Something not often found in EVE. The further you guys get from T5 the harder the dilemma gets. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:33:00 -
[59] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Xython wrote:I really don't envy the CCP team right now. On the one hand, the temptation to do something is outrageous I'm sure. On the other hand, technically speaking Aryth and the rest of the Economic specialists in Goonswarm did absolutely nothing wrong, they just happened to do this absolutely nothing wrong to an unhealthy extreme. Or, if you prefer, a "Goonish" extreme.
On the other hand, 5 Trillion ISK isn't that much -- that's what, 2, 3 months of Goonswarm's income? I had originally heard that it was 1 Quadrillion (1000 Trillion) ISK, which gave me the strangest feeling in my happy spot.
As an aside: It's kinda funny, but I'm pretty sure Goonswarm "employs" more Economics Majors than CCP does. ;)
Q: How many economics majors does it take to listen to a player who, with facts and figures laid out, points out that a proposed mechanism change could lead to extreme results A: At least one more than CCP employ, since we've been through this whole thing at least 4 times already that I know of, and almost certainly several times more. Seriously, the only thing different about this event is that it was specifically goons who benefitted. And, well... since everyone knows that goonies are naughty bad wrong, then it's obvious that they need to be punished.
We are also quite good at exposing game mechanics that may need looking into. It's what we are known for after all. CCP probably didn't understand the warnings of severity. This is just my opinion, but I believe maybe they intended some light gaming, but probably not to the degree that was possible. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:34:00 -
[60] - Quote
Udonor wrote:I predict CCP will fail at addressing the real long term problem associated with this game flaw. I believe that up to now the GOONs have not wagged the whole economy on purpose.
We have. Ice interdiction, Burn Jita, and mineral manipulation were not accidents. They had a purpose.
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:53:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP is currently in the process of yanking tons of stuff from our accounts. Far beyond what was profited from. The sandbox indeed is not quite as sandboxy as we thought. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:03:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:13:00 -
[63] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.
This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.
By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:38:00 -
[66] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Domer Pyle wrote:this thread is chock full of goon tears. i am amused.
but, yeah, it seems that the goons went above and beyond helping ccp fix a bug, hence why they're taking the stuff you got from it, lol. makes sense to me. they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. and yeah, the goon crying/feet stomping threadnaught that is inbound is only made more delicious when held in contrast to the smug "once again we won eve" OP
On the contrary. The very fixes CCP did, were the ones we suggested. We also suggested a long term fix that took days of internal debate to figure out the best fix for. We went way out of our way to explain the issue in detail, the possible fixes, and even later on when they exposed themselves to it happening again. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. give it a rest. No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back. if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move. That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away.
They seized assets that existed before the patch. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:57:00 -
[68] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: save the crying for when they don't give stuff back they should have. until then, they probably will return unrelated stuff
Given CCP's past trackrecord of false positives for RMT, and now taking assets that had nothing to do with FW because they were the same asset type, well, I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to do anything of the sort.
The greater issue is. This means combining mechanics in EVE to an unforseen outcome is an exploit. Forget the ISK for a second. This means EVE is not the EVE we thought it was. Read the thread, many people feel this is well within the mechanics. I would say most have voiced their support. If it's such a grey area, that the majority of people believe it to be legit, for CCP to do something like this is chilling indeed.
I respect their right to maintain the sandbox. But my personal opinion is they are not the same company they were. This was well within bounds. That is a sad thing for EVE. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:01:00 -
[69] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.
The more fair comparison, is to compare the CCP of today, with the CCP of years past. I am not trying to be all conspiracy theory here. But ever since they have gotten into bed with Sony, they seem to kneejerk much more readily to press. It's my belief that they are marketing driven now. A marketing department who doesn't understand the value of the sandbox, and just wants good press. Anything remotely negative gets you pounded. That is their right, but it's not the EVE many of us love. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:09:00 -
[70] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored. Blizzard being control freaks, what a surprising news. I thought, however, that CCP was a bit better than that.
As did I. They used to be. I guess not anymore though. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:14:00 -
[71] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote: As did I. They used to be. I guess not anymore though.
You talk like this time it's YOUR game that got ruined. And parody of the impossible, by your former big guy. I mean, even scripting this episode people would find it not believable.
It's your game too. Would you not like to be able to engage at manipulation on this scale? |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:17:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:For the love of all that is GOOD! T5 CashoutPlease tell me they let you keep the two Civilian Miners and the Miner I...
They did. Those were there as a troll incase people remember civ miner guy out there. I guess no one remembered him. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:19:00 -
[73] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"?
No. Just that the game has changed a bit. Everyone will have their own opinion on if that is a good thing or not. Obviously I am biased but I have had this opinion every since they got neg-pressed into banning mittens. For something they clearly saw with their own eyes and ignored. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:56:00 -
[74] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:CCP is taking unrelated assets from people who used a game mechanic. A mechanic CCP was told about, publicly, before it ever left the test server. CCP was told that this could happen if the patch went in unchanged. The patch went live unchanged.
This cannot be stressed enough. These mechanics came in with the design having clearly been pointed out as bad to CCP. They brought in the mechanic anyway, we zergrushed that mechanic.
to Summerize.
CCP knew the design was flawed ahead of time CCP Deployed it to the live server anyway ZERGRUSH 5% CCP Sees something. Nerf's Cargodrops. CCP runs their price updater and enables the manipulated items to take effect. ZERGRUSH with market price manipulated item 95% CCP detects nothing Goons: Hey CCP. Here is the entire write up. Oh good, you got the fix in fast. Hey, here are some more you missed. .. .. .. Goons: Wow, Really Bro? Even crap not related to FW you take?
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:07:00 -
[75] - Quote
corestwo wrote:asd3452 wrote:Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this. My guess is they will make a vague but self-congratulatory dev-blog, then quietly return assets after some time passes, while not commenting on it publicly. CCP is in a really bad position given how loudly and proudly they trumpet 'Sandbox' to all the gaming media. My feeling is that Sony is putting pressure on CCP to no longer run EVE as a Sandbox, and instead make it much more like all the other MMOs out there, with little real player-driven economy. Wow its almost like I said this pages ago. First step in the death of eve, "carebears mining veldspar forever and nothing else" and all that.
Just sayin I called this back when mittens got banned. Holla |
Aryth
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:07:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:asd3452 wrote:CCP is taking unrelated assets from people who used a game mechanic. A mechanic CCP was told about, publicly, before it ever left the test server. CCP was told that this could happen if the patch went in unchanged. The patch went live unchanged. This cannot be stressed enough. These mechanics came in with the design having clearly been pointed out as bad to CCP. They brought in the mechanic anyway, we zergrushed that mechanic. to Summerize. CCP knew the design was flawed ahead of time CCP Deployed it to the live server anyway ZERGRUSH 5% CCP Sees something. Nerf's Cargodrops. CCP runs their price updater and enables the manipulated items to take effect. ZERGRUSH with market price manipulated item 95% CCP detects nothing Goons: Hey CCP. Here is the entire write up. Oh good, you got the fix in fast. Hey, here are some more you missed. .. .. "oh, and yeah, I pilfered 5trillion isk worth of junk and screwed up faction wars for a few weeks, I hope that's cool." .. Goons: Wow, Really Bro? Even crap not related to FW you take? Fixed
You win. I like yours even better
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:24:00 -
[77] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything
I know people might not believe me. But no, I really did expect to be allowed to keep it. This was well within what I consider the boundaries of the game. Many people agree, this is EVE. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin. The CCP of 2 years ago couldn't pay it's bank loan. The Dude wrote:Yes, Walter, you're right. There is an unspoken message here. It's "**** YOU"
Are you saying they sold out? |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:44:00 -
[79] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal
People DID tell CCP before it was released in another thread. That is the point. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:52:00 -
[80] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal People DID tell CCP. That is the point. Ok so then before you you walked through the open door you heard that they had been warned that this could happen, but did it anyway ?? Look it was some clever ****, but you had to know the cr*p was going to fly ? Tal
No, we didn't. As far as we were concerned, this was a rah-rah thing for the EVE storyline in general, with no long term damage to EVE. Everything about the plan revolved around that. So no, we didn't think anything would be flying. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 23:04:00 -
[81] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended. In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP. Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time.
This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much.
We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.22 23:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Mate for some intelligent blokes you must be really naive, considering the alliance your in.
Tal
I have been around a long time. I have seen CCP step up time and time again over the years and say things like this are ok. It's just in the past 6 months or so I got the feeling it was more media driven rather than the old hands off CCP. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but it's not a new feeling for me. |
Aryth
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Posted - 2012.06.22 23:24:00 -
[83] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:Inspiration wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended. In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP. Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time. This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much. We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP. Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too: This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back! And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC. It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process. Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox! Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose! It really is that simple!
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP.
That is why it is content. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.22 23:30:00 -
[84] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Seeing as everyone knows Goons control CCP these days it was only natural that as part of our secret deep-cover plot to destroy Eve we'd get them to do it for us in the end.
Stoffer got a damn good headstart on that with the Greed is Good? newletter. I started a thread in his honor at the time. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 23:38:00 -
[85] - Quote
Russell Casey wrote:Aryth wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P No they should tell CCP but before they exploit the cr*p out of it. If you walk in through an open door a nick some ones TV and goods, then a month later walk in and say, hey you kept leaving your door open and that's why your stuff keeps getting nicked, then are they going to :- A. beat the crap out of you and call the police B. turn around and say thank you very much for pointing that out and teachibg us a lesson, heres a cookie. Tal People DID tell CCP before it was released in another thread. That is the point. They also told them Incarna was going to be a shitstorm months in advance. I still remember Hilmar's famous "judge them by what they do not what they say" response.
Indeed. It would be nice of them even to say something given they are going around seizing assets and not even doing so in a consistent fair manner. Until then we can only judge them by their actions.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.22 23:45:00 -
[86] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:Inspiration wrote:
Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:
This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back! And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC. It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.
Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox! Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!
It really is that simple!
I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP. That is why it is content. +1 Inspiration And this is probably why "Burn Jita" earns praises while this caused CCP to kick sand in your face. It's content, but it's not interesting for CCP, it's embarrassing. Your actions should be against other players, not the sandbox nor CCP. And while you did profit from players, you used illegitimate means to get there, not to mention screwing with players directly by breaking faction warfare while you did all this. And how can you say this wasn't against CCP when more then half the posts seem to target CCP directly. I'll paraphrase: - We told CCP, they didn't listen so they got what was coming to them - The devs are terribad. They couldn't code themselves into their own function calls. - etc etc etc Hell, one of the posts from a goonie attacked the Icelandic heritage in general.
Because CCP chose an immediately hostile stance. They indicated very quickly they intended to interfere in the sandgox. So people naturally replied with arguments against that stance. Note, I have not once bashed them. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 00:09:00 -
[87] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad.
The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. |
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GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 00:19:00 -
[88] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Aryth wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:When the sandbox collides with making a fool of the developer, guess which side of that will win? Most people don't thank you when you embarrass them publicly. So you reap your just reward. Too bad. The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. So what have CCP done to you so far?
Seized anything remotely LP store relayed. Zeroed out LP stores. Even though some of the assets we had were of the same type. So they seized items not even related to the FW issue. To go further, they didn't even do it in a consistent manner, making it even wierder. I am not sure what the trigger was besides wealth confiscation. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 00:26:00 -
[89] - Quote
Oisin Sandovar wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote: It was working as intended until ... well, we can see what happened. Then it became unintended.
That happens when you play with fire.
I wouldn't really call 5T a fire. More like a BIC lighter. |
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Posted - 2012.06.23 00:36:00 -
[90] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Aryth wrote:Graic Gabtar wrote:Aryth wrote:The intention was never to embarrass them. It was content. I don't know why so many are spinning it that way. Burn Jita was content and we inflicted mass suffering upon the market and others. This was much the same, except directly on the markets. So what have CCP done to you so far? Seized anything remotely LP store relayed. Zeroed out LP stores. Even though some of the assets we had were of the same type. So they seized items not even related to the FW issue. To go further, they didn't even do it in a consistent manner, making it even wierder. I am not sure what the trigger was besides wealth confiscation. This sandpit just - took a turn for the douche. So blind anger and retribution for a flawed game mechanic they knew about. The dev post in this thread reminded my of the post Incarna lash out. An embarrassed CCP usually react in ways they soon regret. I think it's clear what kind of theme park CCP want to run now.
That is what is the most troubling about this. No way I thought this was coming. This was way inbounds to us.
I will be attending a wedding tomorrow, so gone pretty much the entire day and most of Sunday. So I will follow the thread when I can, but am waiting to see what their devblog says. This runs contrary to everything we thought so I am very curious to see their official stance. |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 00:41:00 -
[91] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
They took my PAX profits I rolled into it too! Oh the humanity |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
381
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Posted - 2012.06.23 00:48:00 -
[92] - Quote
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.
Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.
Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second. it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too This. It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Anyone who wants the sandbox to allow manipulation at this scale should be appalled at the direction this is heading. I want to wait for the CCP statement but this is looking very dark. Especially given this article
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=is&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvisir.is%2Fmisnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum%2Farticle%2F2012120629638&act=url]
Where CCP basically states this is a-ok? Now I am even more confused |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
381
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Posted - 2012.06.23 00:53:00 -
[93] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote: "Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.
Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail.
We went out of our way to avoid that outcome. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
381
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Posted - 2012.06.23 00:57:00 -
[94] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Well played goons.
I love the whole datacore bit.
One question though. Why did you bother with amarr lp at all?
Needed liquidity. Amarr faction ships presented a fast route to capital. We were trying to avoid HULKSMASH on everything in site. So we spread out the ISK as wide as possible. Ammo/Skillbooks/Faction ships/ Implants etc. Across multiple factions. We spider webbed across all of FW with Minmatar as the launching pad. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
381
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Posted - 2012.06.23 01:03:00 -
[95] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail. And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how? Ok, let me explain then: You rigged both PvP and PvE on a grand scale. Effectively, you successfully ruined the game for thousands of players more than you could have ever hoped to have actually fought in a conventional contest of wealth or military power via exploits and loopholes. While I congratulate you on your inventiveness, I might point out that while goons policy is to drink the tears of other players, effectively trying to destroy EvE is ultimately counter productive, and if kept up, CCP will have to bring down the hammer on you.
I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key.
Another pcgamer article from the PR guy.
PCGamer |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
382
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Posted - 2012.06.23 01:22:00 -
[96] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Aryth wrote:I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key. Another pcgamer article from the PR guy. PCGamer I particularly love this part: "On the other hand I worry that some players donGÇÖt see it that way, that they donGÇÖt understand they are capable of matching GoonswarmGÇÖs (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVEGÇÖs history, arenGÇÖt laser-proof. T" How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Pretty easily. Speculate on patches. That is what we do. This isn't the first multi-trillion hit we have landed on a patch. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
382
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Posted - 2012.06.23 01:24:00 -
[97] - Quote
Another article http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/06/22/eve-players-loot-new-in-game-system-for-unheard-of-wealth-troll-everyone.aspx
CCP is getting a lot of press from this. Looks pretty positive too. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
384
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Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[98] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples. And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.
So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok? I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.
The ferrogel dupe was an obvious bug. You had a CCP published # for how much crap your silos shoulda been getting per month/hr.
Combining mechanics to make something new is not a bug. Generating material out of thin air is. We never generated anything out of thin air, everything had a cost. It was just heavily discounted compared to what we could profit. |
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Posted - 2012.06.23 01:50:00 -
[99] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny. What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.
ISboxer, Another legal mutliboxing method. It's all the rage in mining now. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
384
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Posted - 2012.06.23 01:55:00 -
[100] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone? Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale. Ah. I misunderstood. Yah... I mean I agree. If it's within the normal mechanics of the game it should be fine. This wasn't a coding error. It wasn't even an error. CCP just failed to anticipate. Right?
It's not so much they failed to anticipate, it's more they didn't heed warnings many players gave them pre-change. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think they truly understood the problem until an extensive writeup was done. I spent quite some time explaining all the facets to them. It wasn't a single path. You could do this several ways. The fix is non-trivial. If you link a pricing system to something the players directly can influence, they will influence it. |
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Aryth
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Posted - 2012.06.23 01:56:00 -
[101] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:I will be attending a wedding tomorrow, so gone pretty much the entire day and most of Sunday. Good. Enjoy yourself in RL this weekend and get this out of your head. In the end, for us players, it is just a game, after all. Certainly not worth running up your blood pressure and stressing your hair grey. After all, none of us are so foolish as to invest our emotions in a silly game, like those ninnies playing WoW, right?
I dunno, I think I am pretty calm considering i just watched trillions of ISK go poof from my characters. Beyond even what was involved in FW. But lots of drinking and speeches will probably mean I come back to a devblog at least. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 01:59:00 -
[102] - Quote
Xython wrote:Aryth wrote:It's not so much they failed to anticipate, it's more they didn't heed warnings many players gave them pre-change. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think they truly understood the problem until an extensive writeup was done. I spent quite some time explaining all the facets to them. It wasn't a single path. You could do this several ways. The fix is non-trivial. If you link a pricing system to something the players directly can influence, they will influence it. Ah. That's where the big huge cockup is, then? The player influenceable "suggested price" they have in the new UI?
Yes. Oh look, CCP pricing. Why, I will just fly over here to to this non-the-forge system and cycle a year's volume to myself real fast. At a hilarious mark up. Wait for the job to run on Friday. Oh look CCP value is now 68x what it was.
You can figure out the rest.
Edit: We had a 2nd item in the cooker that would have went to 10B..Each...for a 5% implant. There would have been an LP holocaust and I pressed for that to take the nerf bat before it could be used.
I spent billions in market fees maniping that one, and didn't even use it. |
Aryth
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Posted - 2012.06.23 13:13:00 -
[103] - Quote
Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 13:18:00 -
[104] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same. Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".
Thanks for the reply. I will sit tight and be dark most of the weekend due to RL. So no posting spree for me. Radio silence for me.
Again thanks for the reply, we didn't know what/why. This clears things up a lot. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
395
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Posted - 2012.06.23 13:27:00 -
[105] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it?
Well, to be fair to Sreegs. He didn't say exploit. He said abuse. Maybe it's semantics, but the devil is in the details sometimes. Goona throw down a few more posts before I am out. This is some good drama. ROLLERCOASTER |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 13:32:00 -
[106] - Quote
Natasha Fatality wrote:This is really the most fascinating thread I can remember reading in a long time. I feel lucky to have just gotten into EVE right as this is all going down. It seems like a really pivotal moment for the game's community. I have to admit, I really want to become a Goon myself at this point. :)
it really is turning into one of those moments that define EVE. Sure I am biased, but doesn't everyone like a happy ending?
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GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 13:34:00 -
[107] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Bolow Santosi wrote:Mars Theran wrote:
Create a fake database value to be used in FW LP reward calculation for ship kills, then go inject fake database number into calculation for LP by killing a ship with fake database number in cargo or as ship. Sell LP and Profit.
They never created a fake database value. They inflated slow moving/stagnant items and manipulated them to be significantly higher so they could generate LP more efficiently and effectively. Nothing about that is fake. If this had been player vs player manipulation CCP would not have batted an eye. Where these goons erred was making it player vs CCP manipulation. This is no different than the snake oil salesmen that frequent your local church pushing their faith healing. Government doesn't care. Now, try selling government such a service, expect to get the smack down. Goon tears best tears.
Not quite. If we had been selling items to NPC orders, that would have been Goons vs CCP. However, all the ISK involved either came from our own wallets (hundreds of billions) or from the market orders of public traders (hundreds of billions). Since no ISK was created, it was only transferring wealth between players, not so much CCP printing ISK. ISK was lost. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2012.06.23 13:35:00 -
[108] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:i admire someones ability to see the market and make profit. That been said, I do hate the hypocracy of goons calling high sec nerf to incursions while at the same time runing a permanent suicide on hulks and on top of that exploiting the market! what's the hypocrisy there? read further into the post and then you see the hypocracy
We are running suicide ganks on hulks as a form of market manipulation. See lowends. I am not sure if that makes it a good or worse thing to you to know there is an ulterior motive, but there you go. |
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