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Anneka Tong
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
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Posted - 2009.07.18 08:43:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Spiders and flies are one in the same. We must rise to become more than insects is the truth of it.
Flies are insects. Spiders are arachnids. Different classes, though same phylum, i.e. Arthropods.
Not the same.
I like genetic engineering Past projects: The Radioactive Sheep Current project: Cybercow |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.22 13:33:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara Cloning technology is expensive. People live their lives, people die, people learn and unlearn. More importantly, people abuse and misuse the technology you and your fellows see as salvation. GalNet for instance. Even here the amount of actual debate and learning taking place is minimal.
Cloning technology is expensive because the powers-that-be want it to be expensive. Break their monopoly (as we have in the Star Fraction) and you'll find it can be given as a gift and friendly service to comrades-at-arms and fellow revolutionaries. There are no baseline mortals in our strike teams Nikilaiki Ruutarhara. Our special forces risk no more than a few hours of memory when they attack the infrastructure of the enemy. Whereas the anarchist tragedy of this thread is indicated in the near total loss of cultural memory amongst the Paradise colonists - I assure you there are now immortal descendants of this culture who will not be so easily expunged.
Quote: The problem is that it cannot be applied to a large population.
This is a nonsense. Where education and technical prowess is available there is no reason that anarchist principles cannot be usefully employed throughout a sizeable population.
Quote: The crux of the matter is this. The propagation of technology and information simply gives those with power - any kind of power - more venue for control if used properly. Yes, it also gives those who oppose it a venue to voice grievance, but this can also be seen as more of a "release valve" of the pressures necessary to create a critical mass that would allow for the toppling of said system. I could go into the sociological and psychological reasoning behind this, perhaps even the neurobiology of the matter. In the end, though, I realize that your view is needed in the grand scheme of things. As ineffectual as it is, it is a beautiful starting point.
Where Tatsue is deeply wrong is in her belief that she is her own revolution and solipsist NBSI self-delusion is anything other than a bitter trap. Where you are wrong is in viewing technology and information as neccessary elements of state control - we are on the verge of a technological singularity in new eden at the conflux of replication/cloning/transport science that will render the baseline notion of "the state" precisely irrelevent to the future of mankind. Our nature of humanity will change too, but we will be freed from regressive political dogma and the detritus of nation-state imperialism even as we reach for the stars with our new immortality.
I am an individual with the power and technological influence you speak of. I choose to give freely to the baseline populace of this star cluster because I want a race of peers and fellow travellers not serfs or slaves to be my companions through eternity. I consider this not regressive charity but neccessary education as an adult must provide to children if those children are to renew the culture.
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari Infection Vector
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Posted - 2009.07.23 13:31:00 -
[243]
My dear Jade Constantin. Finally I stir you from your recursion. Let us see if we can get a new cycle started, shall we?
We have two divergent views. The differences come into play in our understanding of a very basic concept; emergent behavior. I agree that your theory holds validity, but only if certain criteria are met. Your "Anarchist Tragedy" fulfills some criteria, but it seems the lesson is perhaps lost on you.
Quote: One day I'll kill a man with it and perhaps one more spirit will rest in Paradise.
The phrasing of that is very telling. Strip away the story, strip away the name, strip away the spirituality, the doubt...
"One day I'll kill a man with it."
This is the true tragedy. You've kept the gun, you keep it, and for a very personal reason. It is not efficient. It is not for protection, there are other tools that would suffice.
You speak of education, how you are a "person of influence", you speak of technology... yet deep down you are the vengeful beast, the caged hound. You have the tools about you to make wondrous progress, you have the know how to employ them, but you are still "baseline" in every other respect.
So, stripping away all that keeps your beast in check, the social norms and acceptable behavior, what are we?
Emergent behavior, my dear. Understand your reactions and learn to control them. Demonstrate this. Show that you are capable of self improvement. Then perhaps we can discuss how you see your actions, and those of your "anarchists", will assist in bringing about a singularity.
Quote:
Our nature of humanity will change too, but we will be freed from regressive political dogma and the detritus of nation-state imperialism even as we reach for the stars with our new immortality.
Recursion, my dear. Live, learn and adapt. These are old ideas; show us something new. |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.23 15:06:00 -
[244]
You consider human passions a failing. I do not.
And you must not mistake the language when I speak of transcending the baseline. I am speaking literally, my words practical and exact. Cloning and mind-state transference are tools for avoiding death. Just as antibiotics, microsurgery and even primitive anaesthesia in their time were such tools. There is nothing innately spiritual in the transformation from mortal to immortal. We are not holy creatures to be shriven of our sins and reborn into a universe without hate or fear or revenge. And truthfully, much of the human condition is a paradox of opposites, without such dark emotions to cast the shadow how can we see the light?
Would I be capable of the extremes of love and yearning my deathless heart knows if I was not able to experience despair and feel the urgings of vengeance and retribution? I believe it is a dangerous and self destructive course when the personality unravels and this very IGS has seen many examples of wasted-wind-blown once-individuals proclaiming their transcendence beyond human thoughts and simply becoming machine-manufactured memes of clichT and ultimate predictability. This very thread has several examples in the early pages.
So no Nikilaiki Ruutarhara, I am not ashamed of the oath of vengeance I swore to a dead man. We are all immortals in human form. We are gods with the minds of men, we are part of this universe not above it and it is our destiny only to touch the future and pass what gifts we may to our culture. We are not perfect and pure and neither are our dreams. We are human, we make mistakes we act from passion and pride and all the sins of the flesh. We laugh, we cry, we drink too much and toast the infinite in celebrations and hurl our glasses to the floor. In this we are not so different to our brethren on the planets bellow.
The Star Fraction movement is not the stainless steel conformity of the mind-purged Sansha drone hives. Nor is it the mortal transcendence of self-denying spiritual cults preached by Aria Jenneth and her followers. We are not futurists in any classical sense, we don't have a grand design or programmed solution to humanity's ills. We don't have all the answers, we don't know where the road will lead.
When we talk of uplifting the baseline we mean providing access to technology that renders state control meaningless. It means providing medicine to treat the plague of mortality. It means teaching our brothers and sisters to look outward to the endless tapestry of stars and encompass ambitions in generations not heartbeats.
When we talk of liberation we mean deliverance from all constraints of physicality: circumstance and time, restriction and scope. Our project is not grand and unified it is scattered, uneven, sporadic and messy. It's the scattershot wildfire of illicit nanofactories airdropped from high atmosphere burns. its pirate code for biotech on the state holowebs. Its political theory classes spliced into transcortical control implants for internment camps. The Fraction ethos is the space movement; it's the jury-rigged transport ship heading out for the frontier with hydroponics, black cloning tech and sensor probes, one-hundred families determined to strike out on their own and do what they will.
We create chaos as much as we create freedom but even this inspires the individual as it weakens the hierarchy. We make the attempt and even as our human hands often miss the mark our immortality ensures we will keep trying until we succeed - after all, we have eternity.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.23 15:07:00 -
[245]
You speak in closing from the suggestion that we anarchists will create the singularity. I do not see it this way. The singularity is coming be it next year or in a hundred. Its influence is there to be harnessed and utilised. Rather I view it as cosmic winds to fill the sails of freedom and carry those with the courage to embark to new places and fresh realities far out in the universe. Along the way the Star Fraction will shoot up the border guards and sabotage the state machinery denying escape to a captive population. We will win wars and lose them, but ultimately as I said: Time is on our side.
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Invelious
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.07.23 16:12:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
You speak in closing from the suggestion that we anarchists will create the singularity. I do not see it this way. The singularity is coming be it next year or in a hundred. Its influence is there to be harnessed and utilised. Rather I view it as cosmic winds to fill the sails of freedom and carry those with the courage to embark to new places and fresh realities far out in the universe. Along the way the Star Fraction will shoot up the border guards and sabotage the state machinery denying escape to a captive population. We will win wars and lose them, but ultimately as I said: Time is on our side.
You need to lay off the blue pills Jader. |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.23 17:54:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Invelious You need to lay off the blue pills Jader.
You need to stick to spamming the standings thread. This one clearly goes right over your little 24th Crusader head.
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Tatsue Nuko
Freecaptains' Union
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Posted - 2009.07.23 18:45:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara The problem is that Capsuleers are a very small percentage of the population. We are not the end-all and be-all of existance. For every one of us there are perhaps billions "still jailed to a baseline existence".
All the more reason to tear down the reactionary structures and ideologies that hold said people in that existance. All the more reason to continue developing both the technologies and evolving the social structures that are the natural offspring of those technologies.
One day there will be no true mortality among humanity. Why waylay the prospects of that future because we are not quite there yet?
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara Cloning technology is expensive. People live their lives, people die, people learn and unlearn. More importantly, people abuse and misuse the technology you and your fellows see as salvation
Your problem would appear to be that your thinking is locked to the present tense. Reality left you behind a Planck Time ago.
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara The problem is that it cannot be applied to a large population.
It is already applied to a large population.
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara The problem is that your viewpoint is skewed towards the viewpoint that we, as a whole, seek a balance with those around us.
No. You should read what I actually say. My whole viewpoint is based on the fact that whatever I do, I cannot do anything beyond material damage to other transhumans. The worst I can do to an opponent is to cause inconvenience. Maybe an economic setback.
For this reason, I can only rule by fear to the extent that said transhumans remain conditioned to accept that emotion as a cause for action - or cause for absence of action. That is: the only thing that allows rule over another is that said other person is either stupid, uneducated, or just too indoctrinated with outdated dogma from their previous baseline existance to think that my "threat" actually means something.
If you have practical immortality, there is no reason to place your momentary life above your principles. For this reason, threats and force become worthless.
So, in fact, my viewpoint is not based on any assumption that we seek balance with our society. It is based on the simple fact that the only people my own sadistic self is able to force my will upon is those that have not yet understood that I can do them no harm that is worth mentioning.
This is the fundamental problem with any measure of propagating the revolution through military means. It is impossible to cause anything beyond temporary fiscal harm against one's ideological, philosophical and political opponents.
Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara The propagation of technology and information simply gives those with power - any kind of power - more venue for control if used properly.
Only against those that do not share said technology and information. Which is the entire point. |
Tatsue Nuko
Freecaptains' Union
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Posted - 2009.07.23 18:47:00 -
[249]
Originally by: "Jade Constantine" Break their monopoly (as we have in the Star Fraction) and you'll find it can be given as a gift and friendly service to comrades-at-arms and fellow revolutionaries. There are no baseline mortals in our strike teams Nikilaiki Ruutarhara.
Fellow comrades-at-arms and revolutionaries first have to be able to take the step towards being able to use said technology. If you have managed to refine the technology to the point to it being universally applicable to all baseline humans, I would expect the proliferation to be immediately obvious. As for no baselines in your strike teams: have you achieved sufficient automation to ensure no crew necessities beyond the capsuleers? Would be another thing worth proliferating as a service to the cause.
Originally by: "Jade Constantine" Where Tatsue is deeply wrong is in her belief that she is her own revolution and solipsist NBSI self-delusion is anything other than a bitter trap.
Where you are wrong is your assumption that you can effectuate any change against other transhumans when the best you can cause them is momentary financial discomfort.
As for revolution... I am my own revolution. This is an easily observable fact: I can only be caused financial harm. There does remain an extremely remote possibility of causing simultaneous damage to all my bodies, all my sleeping clones and all such facilities storing myself as to cause a permanent stop to my continuation, but that is the finer point of "practical" immortality. Of course, I invite everyone that wishes to try - it would be a fine challenge if the individual or organization are of some resources, and one that I would probably gain immensely from through the experience.
Simply through living in that reality that I have won for myself, I have performed a successful revolution - as have you, and everyone else here.
Yet some of us seem to still delude ourselves that we can inflict sufficient harm against our peers that we can change their principles, which is folly. |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.23 19:29:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Tatsue Nuko
Yet some of us seem to still delude ourselves that we can inflict sufficient harm against our peers that we can change their principles, which is folly.
in my opinion...
With actions and deeds one can sway the mind and opinions of peers. If one can change the mind of a capsuleer, one has caused a revolution.
Isk damage is irrelevant unless the one being damaged is so weak as to let such a temporal matter effect their course of action.
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Tatsue Nuko
Freecaptains' Union
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Posted - 2009.07.23 19:43:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss With actions and deeds one can sway the mind and opinions of peers. If one can change the mind of a capsuleer, one has caused a revolution.
You'll note that I have not contradicted this.
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Isk damage is irrelevant unless the one being damaged is so weak as to let such a temporal matter effect their course of action.
The Kimotoro Directive was completely and utterly destroyed by the Star Fraction, as you may recall witnessing.
How many of those militarily destroyed in that conflict are now part of an equivalent organization to the Star Fraction? Several are part of Stimulus and the Rote Kapelle, but it would seem that those do not count. So... What track record does the method of fiscal damage have in the quest to persuade? I remember, from my own then directorship in the alliance, the amount of recruits gained from that campaign of force. A campaign and method that from all appearances has persisted from then on - and yet the membership strength of the organization remains stagnant.
These actions and deeds are themselves perfect examples of the foundation for my argument. |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.23 19:48:00 -
[252]
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just adding my 2 cents.
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Tatsue Nuko
Freecaptains' Union
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Posted - 2009.07.23 20:06:00 -
[253]
If you start with X, and after Y amount of time still have ~X, your argument is made moot.
However, that particular point has been made and I am not particularly interested in pursuing it longer than necessary unless forced. I do however want to highlight the fact that you are painting it in a very disingenous manner and that you most likely do have full access to the facts of the matter and should be finding better arguments. |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.23 20:21:00 -
[254]
DonĘt look for insults where none were intended |
Tatsue Nuko
Freecaptains' Union
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Posted - 2009.07.23 20:38:00 -
[255]
Tomahawk, I do not perceive myself insulted by you and have not indicated anything even remotely like that. |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.23 20:47:00 -
[256]
Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 23/07/2009 20:48:37 my mistake, I read your comments as overly *****ly. sorry.
Edit: stupid filter...that was NOT a foul word. |
Ilissa Ruutarhara
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Posted - 2009.07.24 03:07:00 -
[257]
Let as agree that we disagree on the use of emotion. You misunderstand my view, but you bring up a more important point that I would like to focus on.
Originally by: Jade Constantine You speak in closing from the suggestion that we anarchists will create the singularity. I do not see it this way.
Oh, you do not understand my words. But let us continue;
Quote: The singularity is coming be it next year or in a hundred. Its influence is there to be harnessed and utilised. Rather I view it as cosmic winds to fill the sails of freedom and carry those with the courage to embark to new places and fresh realities far out in the universe.
I believe we have different understandings of what a singularity is.
Quote: Along the way the Star Fraction will shoot up the border guards and sabotage the state machinery denying escape to a captive population.
As I have said before, I see your viewpoint. I believe it is needed. The only problem is that you seem to be blind to the "big picture".
Quote: We will win wars and lose them, but ultimately as I said: Time is on our side.
Understand what a singularity is, my dear. Then look upon this statement, and ask yourself where things stand.
Do you see what I am doing? |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.24 13:03:00 -
[258]
Ilissa Ruutarhara. You will find your engagement with the discussion will go more smoothly if you dial down the sneering air of faux-superiority on your conversational emulation software.
As for the rest, we do have different understandings of what the coming technological singularity will mean to New Eden. I can see you are focused on the hypothesis of emergent super intelligence/machine-sentient evolution - that is your preference but not mine. It is possible your singularity will bring a threat to our personal freedom and individuality. But let's not declare the next war before we've fought the current one.
As for the broader points of discussion elsewhere.
It's an incorrect assumption that the Star Fraction is all about convincing people to change their minds and converting from their nationalist causes to become aspirant freespacers. Some people will not change, some are broken in mind, some are fuelled by the desire "to rule", "to dominate" to establish hierarchies and maintain the status quo above all.
We would waste our time and energy trying to persuade 24th Crusaders of the regressive nature of their cause. In these cases we influence the environment by reducing their starships to rapidly expanding wreckage clouds and suppressing and driving their corporations to exile and extinction while supporting ideological allies in their those aims calculated to further the Star Fraction agenda and the broader freespace movement.
We can persuade a farmstead to flourish by shooting the wolves. Better yet we can teach the farmers to shoot their own wolves. Only a great fool thinks to civilize the wolves through civilized debate while they are trying to eat you!
And why engage a prison camp guard in ideological debate when it is simpler and more efficient to shoot him in the face with a high velocity railgun slug in order to release a group of political prisoners far more inclined to discuss the progressive future of mankind with open hearts and questing minds? Life is full of imperfect choices - we do the best we can.
This is the mistake many Amarrian nationalists make in their various screeds and holo-pamphlets here. Why would we feel obliged to debate with them when the more direct and useful course is to annihilate them in space and open the discussion to a broader range of minds more suited to the freespace message?
Revolution is about practicality as well as idealism. It is all very well to say "I am my own revolution" - but to what end? It is not solely about inflicting sufficient harm to "peers" (enemies) to change their principles - but to remove their ability to suppress the freedoms and principles of others.
Yes of course, there are exceptions to this. Star Fraction has traditionally done very well in the persuasion of ideological foes and many of our greatest comrades and allies have come across from regressive foundations to shine as free captains. But this is not (and never should be) the whole of the ambition. New Eden is a universe of enslaved ideas and sentience beaten down by imperialist dogma. We need bullets and bombs as well as good arguments because even the villains are immortal in the sphere of posthumanity and the persistence of bad-ideas a plague of memetic proportions.
As for the question of membership strength. Star Fraction today is stronger than it has ever been in its history. Better equipped, better focused and operating in close association with ideological allies in the most vital cause for free-space radicalism in the cluster. Whereas in the past we suffered bouts of malaise and dissolution when some of our number felt the throws of NBSI-psychosis pressing on their conscience, these days we are finally free of that taint and by far the better for it.
Any power-worshipping sect of crypto-fascist hierarchs with any doubt of the Star Fraction's significant and growing capability is very welcome to test us. The Black Plan awaits!
3rd Forces in FW - discuss! |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.24 13:40:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Ilissa Ruutarhara. You will find your engagement with the discussion will go more smoothly if you dial down the sneering air of faux-superiority on your conversational emulation software.
Perhaps you should try taking your own advice.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Caldari Infection Vector
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Posted - 2009.07.24 14:08:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Ilissa Ruutarhara. You will find your engagement with the discussion will go more smoothly if you dial down the sneering air of faux-superiority on your conversational emulation software.
Excellent, adaptive and inquisitive. Sadly, "faux-superiority" is the only way I can feel superior.
I am joking of course. Your point however is accepted, and as you have shown me courtesy it shall be shown in kind.
Quote: As for the rest, we do have different understandings of what the coming technological singularity will mean to New Eden. I can see you are focused on the hypothesis of emergent super intelligence/machine-sentient evolution - that is your preference but not mine. It is possible your singularity will bring a threat to our personal freedom and individuality. But let's not declare the next war before we've fought the current one.
Ah, actually it seems we have similar ideas. Still, it seems that our short term goals do have significant variance. I do however feel that your ideals and your goals are needed. That does not mean I do not feel it should be challenged, honed. Your arguments are becoming more informative and perhaps more persuasive.
That is where you shine, where Star Fraction inspires. Not in the arguments with those whom you know will not change. I have further points, but I am satisfied for now.
Thank you.
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.07.24 14:10:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Jade Constantine Ilissa Ruutarhara. You will find your engagement with the discussion will go more smoothly if you dial down the sneering air of faux-superiority on your conversational emulation software.
Perhaps you should try taking your own advice.
Rodj Blake telling someone to stop acting superior?
Oh the Irony.
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