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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.03 19:57:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Electric Universe
My proof is: Ask Darknesss or Leilani Solaris for example if you have the balls to get the proof smashed into your face yourself.
I'm sure they will teach you how to use Blasters right if they have the time
A easy claim to make but i have yet to see anybody jump into this thread to back you up with a recient and long list of kills against frigs ect while they were flying solo blaster BS.....
Myself along with others are getting tired of your constant "i know ppl who know ppl who iz uber blaster BS solo pvpers so every thing is fine and anybody who disagrees suxors at pvp" bull.
So to coin a popular EVE phrase "PROOF OR STFU".
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Electric Universe
The Choir
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Posted - 2009.06.03 20:01:00 -
[392]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 20:02:56 bubbly bird.
It doesn't matter what you have to say. Want a bigger tracking boost than 10% is asking for one thing. And it goes totally against the web nerf.
Or if your thinking gang PVP, then what's the point with a tracking boost to Large Blasters if a tracking nerf to Lasers doesn't have anything to say?.
Can YOU give me a damn good proof that Blasters need a tracking boost when Lasers doesn't need a tracking nerf in gang PVP?.
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.03 20:12:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Electric Universe
It doesn't matter what you have to say. Want a bigger tracking boost than 10% is asking for one thing. And it goes totally against the web nerf.
Then the facts need to be used to force ccp to make a change.
If solo BS should be crap against every ship smaller than other BS the ships/systems/fits previously designated "solo pvp BS" need a full work over to bring them up to date for the kinds of pvp avaiulable to BS now.
Amaar BS were given the best range by far, best dps at every range apart from 0-6km (and even their they hit bloody hard), good tracking and the very best gang tanks in the game MAKING THEM THE UBER GANG PVP BS IN EVE.
Blaster BS were supposed to be solo uber pwnage ships but then CCP in its infinite wisdom decided to make BS suck at solo by gimping speed, webs and a few other things that coupled with populartion density killed solo BS pvp.
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Electric Universe
The Choir
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Posted - 2009.06.03 20:20:00 -
[394]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 20:22:57
Originally by: bubbly bird
Originally by: Electric Universe
It doesn't matter what you have to say. Want a bigger tracking boost than 10% is asking for one thing. And it goes totally against the web nerf.
Then the facts need to be used to force ccp to make a change.
If solo BS should be crap against every ship smaller than other BS the ships/systems/fits previously designated "solo pvp BS" need a full work over to bring them up to date for the kinds of pvp avaiulable to BS now.
Amaar BS were given the best range by far, best dps at every range apart from 0-6km (and even their they hit bloody hard), good tracking and the very best gang tanks in the game MAKING THEM THE UBER GANG PVP BS IN EVE.
Blaster BS were supposed to be solo uber pwnage ships but then CCP in its infinite wisdom decided to make BS suck at solo by gimping speed, webs and a few other things that coupled with populartion density killed solo BS pvp.
Uhm, Blaster Megas today in RR gangs are very good. And it's there they are really good today. Yes they are still good as a solo boat to, but it's more limited today because of so much blobbing and that. But it's still doable if you use scout alts.
Amarr BS'es hit bloody hard?, HAH, then you haven't tried to shoot an omni tanked Tempest. That Tempest tanks a 1200+ DPS gank geddon as long the Tempest have cap boosters with one LAR II fitted.
A 2x damage mods Blaster Mega does more DPS after resists than both a 3x damage mods geddon and Abaddon does to.
Yes Blaster BS'es are supposed to be a good solo ship today, and it's still that. But to some points. Because of how EVE have evolved and after blobbing just got bigger and bigger, then solo PVP isn't easy at all today.
So gang PVP is the most common PVP style today. And because of that, Blaster Mega's are heavily used there, because they are extremely good there.
And because tracking is unimportant in gang PVP as you say, because in 99% of all times the fights are in the Blasters optimal range no matter what. And when the targets are webbed there and when Blasters have a HUGE tracking there.
Then my question is. Why do Blasters need a tracking boost?.
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.03 20:27:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Electric Universe
Amarr BS'es hit bloody hard?, HAH, then you haven't tried to shoot an omni tanked Tempest. That Tempest tanks a 1200+ DPS gank geddon as long the Tempest have cap boosters with one LAR II fitted.
I was about to ask wtf 1 v 1 sissi active tank pvp had to do with anything but then i realized who i was talking to.....
Originally by: Electric Universe A 2x damage mods Blaster Mega does more DPS after resists than both a 3x damage mods geddon and Abaddon does to.
Not against the abaddons tank it does'nt, in fact the 3 x hs abaddon does more dmg on the mega than a 3 x mag stab mega does against the abaddon after resists.
Originally by: Electric Universe Yes Blaster BS'es are supposed to be a good solo ship today, and it's still that.
Rubbish it can be kited and tackled or kited and killed by almost every ship in the classes smaller than BS.
So good at solo my arse.
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Electric Universe
The Choir
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Posted - 2009.06.03 20:37:00 -
[396]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 03/06/2009 20:47:58
Originally by: bubbly bird
Originally by: Electric Universe
Amarr BS'es hit bloody hard?, HAH, then you haven't tried to shoot an omni tanked Tempest. That Tempest tanks a 1200+ DPS gank geddon as long the Tempest have cap boosters with one LAR II fitted.
I was about to ask wtf 1 v 1 sissi active tank pvp had to do with anything but then i realized who i was talking to.....
Originally by: Electric Universe A 2x damage mods Blaster Mega does more DPS after resists than both a 3x damage mods geddon and Abaddon does to.
Not against the abaddons tank it does'nt, in fact the 3 x hs abaddon does more dmg on the mega than a 3 x mag stab mega does against the abaddon after resists.
Originally by: Electric Universe Yes Blaster BS'es are supposed to be a good solo ship today, and it's still that.
Rubbish it can be kited and tackled or kited and killed by almost every ship in the classes smaller than BS.
So good at solo my arse.
Dude, was i talking about sisi here?. We have something called TQ.
And a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on Sisi wont hit a Tempest any harder if it was a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on TQ. 1200 DPS is still 1200 DPS.
Yes the Abaddon have higher resists than the Megathron. And if you put in 50-60 mill isk extra into the Megathron instead of paying that much extra to get an Abaddon, you will do around 1% more DPS than the Abaddon after resists then.
Yes the Mega will have a little lower resists than the Abaddon, but still after resists the Mega does around 1% more DPS with 2x damage mods over the 3x damage mods Abaddon because of the damage types Blasters does.
Because a Mega have really high EM and Thermal resists, while an Abaddon have Kinetic and Thermal resists a bit lower than the Mega have EM and Thermal resists.
LOL, no matter what you say, if you just want it and want to risk to lose your ship, then a Blaster Mega is still a good solo PVP ship even when you risk to lose the ship sometimes.
Remember that this only applies to really experienced PVP players who knows 110% what they are doing.
EDIT: LOL, NightmareX told me that he have spend 400 mill isk more into his Navy Mega.
See here, this is his new setup: LINK.
Yes, that's with his skills. With all skills on level 5, he will have 81.7% EM resist just to tell you how much better the rest of the resists gets to.
He doesn't have a slave set right now, that's why you only see 42k armor. With a LG slave set, he will get 286k EHP.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.03 21:44:00 -
[397]
Didnt read this page (moves waaaay too fast ;p) but blaster mega tracking could be upped to have similiar effect as 70% web (from t2). Thats 25%? But ya'd have to check how it hits ABing cruisers (they should be able to tank it).
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.06.04 03:37:00 -
[398]
Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/06/2009 03:39:26
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
RAGERAGERAGE
Now read up and you will see that the proposed idea is AFTER boosting ACs BASE faloff to 40km (so 2x boost) and then adding ANOTHER 1,5x faloff bonus to ship. This means the range gets increased 3x before we even include skills and barrage. 60km faloff on EMP?
Yes apoc has that range on guns. It pays with decent cap use + worse tracking + needs to use lows to get that far. FYI apoc range is 62+10 maxskill (no TEs).
TBH if ya want to do this, sure go for it. Just kill tracking to level of pulse lasers. Either long range weapon with poor tracking or short-mid with good.
And sitting 80km from it in frig? I would be worried if it was bomber or EAS.
If I am sitting 80km from any turret BS, I am worried, especially an Apoc. Since I am well within his range regargless of Pulses or beams.
If higher range equals lower tracking, then explain the arty/beam relationship then.
And I would say that AC's are supposed to be a versatile weapon with fairly low damage at all ranges in comparison with peak damage output of the others, but iut is a weapon that does ok damage through all ranges. At present that describes lasers, except with high damage. One other solution is just a straight up Laser Damage nerf. That would equalize a lot, tbh. But I would prefer to buff Blasters and AC's then nerf lasers.
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Electric Universe
The Choir
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Posted - 2009.06.04 04:21:00 -
[399]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 04:24:59
Originally by: Beverly Sparks But I would prefer to buff Blasters and AC's then nerf lasers.
I would rather say buff Autocannons a little and nerf Lasers tracking back to how it was before it got the tracking boost some years ago. And then leave Blasters as they are now.
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Raimo
Gallente Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.06.04 04:47:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Electric Universe Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 04:24:59
Originally by: Beverly Sparks But I would prefer to buff Blasters and AC's then nerf lasers.
I would rather say buff Autocannons a little and nerf Lasers tracking back to how it was before it got the tracking boost some years ago. And then leave Blasters as they are now.
In this case Blasters would nee a bit of a tracking *and* damage boost. Otherwise seems fine. --- WOLFY is recruiting!
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Electric Universe
The Choir
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Posted - 2009.06.04 04:54:00 -
[401]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 04:56:28
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Electric Universe Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 04:24:59
Originally by: Beverly Sparks But I would prefer to buff Blasters and AC's then nerf lasers.
I would rather say buff Autocannons a little and nerf Lasers tracking back to how it was before it got the tracking boost some years ago. And then leave Blasters as they are now.
In this case Blasters would nee a bit of a tracking *and* damage boost. Otherwise seems fine.
And can you explain to me why Blasters need a DPS and tracking boost only because Autocannons need a little DPS boost and because Lasers need to have it's tracking nerfed?.
LOL, you don't nerf lasers if you boost Blasters.
You nerf the Lasers tracking a little bit and leaves the Blasters alone as they are now. And then you boost the AC's. Even when the Autocannons had got a 10% DPS boost, it would still be poorer than Blaster by quite alot.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.04 06:23:00 -
[402]
blaster mega still melts webed cruisers, whats your problem? 500k sp in gunnery maybe?
60D GTC - shattared link |
Rhadamantine
Game Community
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Posted - 2009.06.04 06:26:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Electric Universe
LOL, you don't nerf lasers if you boost Blasters.
You nerf the Lasers tracking a little bit and leaves the Blasters alone as they are now. And then you boost the AC's. Even when the Autocannons had got a 10% DPS boost for example, it would still be a little bit poorer than Blaster.
Even I can see that balance, sometimes requires the nerfing and buffing of different systems. From what I've ascertained in these threads:
The buff to tracking that Lasers received, needs reverting back.
Then a buff to ac's and blasters to more clearly define there roles.
A damage and tracking boost to blasters and a damage and falloff boost for ac's. It's just what amounts the boosts should be, that seems to be the sticking point atm.
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To mare
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Posted - 2009.06.04 07:37:00 -
[404]
Edited by: To mare on 04/06/2009 07:39:22 a blaster mega is fine vs cruiser you just need a bit of manouvering, ok it cant hit frigate sized ships when they are close and orbiting but this is a part of the game, no ships can be effective vs all the others ship and if you want a tracking bonus to make the able to kill everything that get in blaster range just give up you wont get it. a bit of tracking 5% / 10% could be ok just because blaster are the shortest ranged weapon of the games and maybe they should track better than AC at extreme close range but thats all.
blaster are a hard weapon to use, there more than just approach > gank you need skill (not SP but real skill) to land in the place you need to do full damage.
also gallente are versatile ships no one force you to fit 7 neutron blaster and 5 ogre, if you really want to be safe from small ships try to go 4 ogre + 1 set of warrior or 7 ion + a heavy neut.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.04 08:55:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Now read up and you will see that the proposed idea is AFTER boosting ACs BASE faloff to 40km (so 2x boost) and then adding ANOTHER 1,5x faloff bonus to ship. This means the range gets increased 3x before we even include skills and barrage. 60km faloff on EMP?
I'm pretty sure I said keep tempest as it is, and keep the 10% bonus on the vargur (which still wouldn't be used at all probably, cause lolmarauders). Yes i know the numbers are ******ed, i just pulled them out of my ass. 40km with TA5 would be probably best though, that's 60k with barrage, 90k on a vargur. And we still have to sacrifice rigs for more range cause TE/TC do nothing for autocannons -> apocs can fit trimarks, AC boats stay paper.
As a comparison megapulse with scorch has 45km optimal with 10km falloff at level 5 sharpshooter/TA. So unless you want to sacrifice a lot of your AC dps, or have falloff rigs the scorch guy will still be doing some dps too. (ie dps curve is steepest at optimal+falloff so every km counts here..)
Also I wouldn't mind a tracking nerf at all if it meant I can shoot past scorch pulse. I even suggested it heh. If it had same tracking as pulse I think it'd be pretty good... Same tracking, can shoot past pulse, but at **** dps. Let's face it, you'll never hit interceptors anyway, and everyone else fits an extender/plate so at your **** dps you're not popping frigs either before they warp out. Besides, that's what muninns are for :P ---
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.04 09:38:00 -
[406]
Edited by: bubbly bird on 04/06/2009 09:41:19
Originally by: Electric Universe
Dude, was i talking about sisi here?. We have something called TQ.
And a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on Sisi wont hit a Tempest any harder if it was a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on TQ. 1200 DPS is still 1200 DPS.
The sort of fight you are talking about only happens on sissi.
Stop wasting ppls time with your worthless 1 v 1 sissi data.
Originally by: Electric Universe Yes the Abaddon have higher resists than the Megathron in total. And if you put in 50-60 mill isk extra into the Megathron instead of paying that much extra to get an Abaddon, you will do around 1% more DPS than the Abaddon after resists then.
WRONG.
Even if you use faction ANP's it will still have less, but even if it did have 1% more we are talking about the range being in blaster optimal so the dps differance should be at least 10-20%.
Originally by: Electric Universe LOL, no matter what you say, if you just want it and want to risk to lose your ship, then a Blaster Mega is still a good solo PVP ship even when you risk to lose the ship sometimes.
Get a frigging clue you fool a solo ship that is either useless or vulnerable to almost EVERY ship smaller than it is a useless solo ship.
Originally by: Electric Universe EDIT: LOL, NightmareX told me that he have spend 400 mill isk more into his Navy Mega.
See here, this is his new setup: LINK.
Yes, that's with his skills. With all skills on level 5, he will have 81.7% EM resist just to tell you how much better the rest of the resists gets to.
He doesn't have a slave set right now, that's why you only see 42k armor. With a LG slave set, he will get 286k EHP.
YOU ARE NIGHMAREX AND YOU HAVE NEVER USED THAT BLOODY MEGA EVER ON TQ.
ALL YOU HAVE EVER DONE IS MAKE UP BULLSH*T EXCUSES FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS AND MONTHS ABOUT YOUR SEC STATUS WHEN THE TRUTH IS YOU JUST GET THE DEVS TO MOVE IT TO FD- ON SISSI AFTER EVERY MIRROR, BECAUSE YOU CAN CHOOSE YOUR FIGHTS AND IT WILL GET REPLACED AFTER EVERY MIRROR IF IT DOES GET POPPED.
THIS IS A SERIOUS THREAD AND WE DO NOT NEED YOUR LIES AND PATHETICALLY OBVIOUS DENIALS IN IT SO GO AWAY.
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.04 09:56:00 -
[407]
Edited by: bubbly bird on 04/06/2009 10:06:07
Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius
They are all related so their changes should be related, the tracking decrease on the lasers is not for the lasers as much as it is for the other two weapon systems, at the moment lasers (as someone correctly said) are best from about 8km+ if auto canons are to dictate range to lasers they need to do that safely within that 8km therefore the lasers could acceptably loose a bit of tracking and it wouldn't effect them too much.
And in a game where 1 v 1 pvp is the rule and webs do not exist that idea will be fine....now how do you intend to deal with the issue in EVE?.
Sorry bud but it is you who is the one with the limited understanding if you are trying to balance systems around a 1 v 1 modal.
I did a test in another thread that reduced the tracking of BS pulse lasers so much they tracked the same as a BLASTER DREADNAUGHT IN SIEGE (about 6 pilgrim fitted TD's hitting a abaddon using scorch and low tracking skill does it), they still hit a webbed BS at uber close range easily.
Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius Also you say you haven't done the maths, seeing as the weapon systems are linked you clearly have little to no data to work from and therefore scientifically speaking you are not likely to be right in your opinion.
I said i had not done the math on the AC, i had done it on blasters and lasers.
But then i know you did no researh at all as i can see clearly from your alleged findings about lasers and blasters.
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To mare
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Posted - 2009.06.04 11:23:00 -
[408]
Originally by: bubbly bird
I did a test in another thread that reduced the tracking of BS pulse lasers so much they tracked the same as a BLASTER DREADNAUGHT IN SIEGE (about 6 pilgrim fitted TD's hitting a abaddon using scorch and low tracking skill does it), they still hit a webbed BS at uber close range easily.
can you explain what this should mean? maybe that pulse with tracking disruptor on them are better than blaster at the same close range?
not a flame i dont get it really
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Admiral IceBlock
Caldari Northern Intelligence
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Posted - 2009.06.04 11:58:00 -
[409]
If it were up to me I would do this, short draft of what I have in mind:
All weapon systems should be usefull without specialized ship bonus. However, the ship bonuses should help define the role of the ship.
Amarr & Lasers - Remove capacitor bonus from all their ships. - Give their ships other bonuses; armor resistance, armor bonus, falloff, tracking, something clever for armor race. - Increase damage of lasers to compensate for the removed capacitor bonus.
Caldari & Railguns/Missiles - Remove missile damage bonus from all ships. - Give their ships other bonuses; shield resistance, optimal, ECM, something clever for electronic race. - Increase damage of missiles to compensate for the removed missile damage bonus ASWELL AS due to some ships having twin-weapon systems. This way, missiles will be totally skill related and not make ships like the Typhoon with twin-weaopons systems subpar. - Rockets OMFG! Gigantic damage boost, lowered rof. Should be mini-torpedoes and not an autocannon shooting projectiles. - HAMS! Damage boost; medium sized torpedoes.
Minmatar & Artillery/Autocannons - Tweak autocannons. - Boost artillery damage; high alpha, low rof. - Remove missile bonuses due to missile change.
Gallente & Blasters/Drones - Increase the damage of blasters.
All races and weapons - Make ships have linear upgrades to their class. E.g: - Punisher -> Omen -> Armageddon. - ... -> Maller -> Abaddon? - Kestrel -> Caracal -> Raven. - Griffin -> Blackbird -> Scorpion. - ... -> Vexor -> Dominix. - Rifter -> Rupture -> Tempest. - Vigil -> Stabber -> Typhoon?
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.04 12:10:00 -
[410]
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: bubbly bird
I did a test in another thread that reduced the tracking of BS pulse lasers so much they tracked the same as a BLASTER DREADNAUGHT IN SIEGE (about 6 pilgrim fitted TD's hitting a abaddon using scorch and low tracking skill does it), they still hit a webbed BS at uber close range easily.
can you explain what this should mean? maybe that pulse with tracking disruptor on them are better than blaster at the same close range?
not a flame i dont get it really
Its fine im happy to explain.
The premise was that BS lasers were virtually as good as BS blasters at blasters 4.5km optimal while lasers also having a vast range and dps advantage from out to 45+km that blasters do not get.
Now to solve this ppl wanted to make lasers worse at close range, that idea in of itself has some merit but doing so is more than a little problematic due to the reality of BS pvp.
One suggestion was to nerf BS laser tracking.
Now on paper or on a EFT graph showing a 1 v 1 BS fight the solution looked quite reasonable BUT when applied to TQ pvp and you factor in that multiple ships will be involved along with the target ship (a BS in this case) will have multiple webs on it as well as its orbit/transversal being utterly subjective to a single ship to be quite honest tracking becomes irrelavant even at the closest of ranges.
So to point this out i fitted a abaddon with T2 pulse loaded with scorch, i then fired 6 max shilled and pilgrim fitted tracking disruptors loaded with tracking speed scripts at it and reduced the abaddon pilots turret tracking skill (motion prediction) to 0.
The result was that the abaddon turrets had a tracking speed of 0.00207 (a good skilled pilot with MF gets 0.04219 btw) that is about as bad as you can gimp tracking and close to a sieged dreads tracking.
Then i fitted a standard BS with the usual plates and mwd gang setup and set it to orbit the abaddon with full transversal i then applied multiple webs on the target to simulate a gang combat effect, i slso left the abaddon stationary and made no attempt to reduce the transversal effect through piloting ect.
The result was that even with such awsomly butchered tracking and in the worst possable condition as well as the target ship having a constant and perfect transversal orbit (a thing impossable on TQ as you well know) the abaddon was still hitting the target for significan dmg inside blaster optimal.
So for those who missed the point:
If after having its tracking screwed over down to 0.00207 while a good skilled pilot with MF gets 0.04219(im not sre what % that is but its a lot) a pulse BS can still hit at uber close range, how is a rather pitiful 7.5%-10% tracking nerf to pulse gonna do anything worthwhile?.
I hope this clarifies things a little.
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.04 12:45:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Amarr & Lasers - Remove capacitor bonus from all their ships. - Give their ships other bonuses; armor resistance, armor bonus, falloff, tracking, something clever for armor race. - Increase damage of lasers to compensate for the removed capacitor bonus.
Why give the race that has the best available range buffer it can use as a tank even more bonuses to armour tanking?.
If any race deserves to have bonuses to armour its gallente as they are the race that has a weapon system that forces it into the optimal/high dmg range of ALL the other weapon systems, while lasers can sit back at range.
The fact that blaster ships need to move around the field to be within their high dps range also causes cap issues due to mwding so maybe a look at that could not hurt.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.06.04 12:45:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Amarr & Lasers - Remove capacitor bonus from all their ships. - Give their ships other bonuses; armor resistance, armor bonus, falloff, tracking, something clever for armor race. - Increase damage of lasers to compensate for the removed capacitor bonus.
No, Amarr do not need to be buffed.
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Caldari & Railguns/Missiles - Remove missile damage bonus from all ships. - Give their ships other bonuses; shield resistance, optimal, ECM, something clever for electronic race. - Increase damage of missiles to compensate for the removed missile damage bonus ASWELL AS due to some ships having twin-weapon systems. This way, missiles will be totally skill related and not make ships like the Typhoon with twin-weaopons systems subpar. - Rockets OMFG! Gigantic damage boost, lowered rof. Should be mini-torpedoes and not an autocannon shooting projectiles. - HAMS! Damage boost; medium sized torpedoes.
No No No. Remove the word kinetic from their ship missile damage bonuses. Double flight speed, 1/2 flight time.
Rockets need to be made more effective versus frigates. More flight speed, higher explosion velocity, and maybe a small damage buff. Although the damage buff could come later, get them hitting for a higher percentage of their base damage, and then re-evaluate.
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
- Tweak autocannons. - Boost artillery damage; high alpha, low rof. - Remove missile bonuses due to missile change.
Yea, tweak autocannons with a sledgehammer.
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Gallente & Blasters/Drones - Increase the damage of blasters.
Maybe a little, but generally, just allow them to apply the damage they already have better. Range and tracking mostly.
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
All races and weapons - Make ships have linear upgrades to their class. E.g: - Punisher -> Omen -> Armageddon. - ... -> Maller -> Abaddon? - Kestrel -> Caracal -> Raven. - Griffin -> Blackbird -> Scorpion. - ... -> Vexor -> Dominix. - Rifter -> Rupture -> Tempest. - Vigil -> Stabber -> Typhoon?
Yea, that sounds reasonable.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.04 13:09:00 -
[413]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 03/06/2009 14:21:49
Originally by: Seishi Maru
run the nubmer before throwing things off. A tempest liek that at 170 km would have MORE damage than a megatron at same range. And at 220 km would be so far ahead of the magatrron that woudl not even be funny.
And still well behind the apoc. I think that tells a lot tbh...
someoen must be the best sniper. Nothign wrogn with that.
And also as compensation an APOC stands no chance agaisnt a tempest on close range.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.06.04 13:23:00 -
[414]
Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/06/2009 13:24:47
Originally by: Seishi Maru And also as compensation an APOC stands no chance agaisnt a tempest on close range....
... in a 1v1 fight on Sisi where the combatants start off 10 km apart.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.04 13:36:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Beverly Sparks Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 04/06/2009 13:24:47
Originally by: Seishi Maru And also as compensation an APOC stands no chance agaisnt a tempest on close range....
... in a 1v1 fight on Sisi where the combatants start off 10 km apart.
on any 1v1 fight. You can say that is rare...specially in 0.0 ... but "240 km sniping" is also not so common... specially in empire. So stil remaisns that each sides has its advantages.
I do from tiem to time see solo or paired tempest in low sec gates and stations... pirates. NEver ever saw a pirate in a solo APOC....
Tempest do not need to match apoc as sniper.. matching megatron would be enough. Tempest already has more dps tahn megatron.. until the arti reload hits.. (the clip is an issue that suirely needs immediate correction). Just makign range modules give falloff bonus woudl minimaly increase effective range of others, while significantly increase for minmatar. Correct the clip issue and make some alpha striek tweaking and I woudl even drop my apoc for a tempest once in a while (and i trained into apoc to replace my tempest exaclty).
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To mare
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Posted - 2009.06.04 13:42:00 -
[416]
Originally by: bubbly bird Its fine im happy to explain.
The premise was that BS lasers were virtually as good as BS blasters at blasters 4.5km optimal while lasers also having a vast range and dps advantage from out to 45+km that blasters do not get.
Now to solve this ppl wanted to make lasers worse at close range, that idea in of itself has some merit but doing so is more than a little problematic due to the reality of BS pvp.
One suggestion was to nerf BS laser tracking.
Now on paper or on a EFT graph showing a 1 v 1 BS fight the solution looked quite reasonable BUT when applied to TQ pvp and you factor in that multiple ships will be involved along with the target ship (a BS in this case) will have multiple webs on it as well as its orbit/transversal being utterly subjective to a single ship to be quite honest tracking becomes irrelavant even at the closest of ranges.
So to point this out i fitted a abaddon with T2 pulse loaded with scorch, i then fired 6 max shilled and pilgrim fitted tracking disruptors loaded with tracking speed scripts at it and reduced the abaddon pilots turret tracking skill (motion prediction) to 0.
The result was that the abaddon turrets had a tracking speed of 0.00207 (a good skilled pilot with MF gets 0.04219 btw) that is about as bad as you can gimp tracking and close to a sieged dreads tracking.
Then i fitted a standard BS with the usual plates and mwd gang setup and set it to orbit the abaddon with full transversal i then applied multiple webs on the target to simulate a gang combat effect, i slso left the abaddon stationary and made no attempt to reduce the transversal effect through piloting ect.
The result was that even with such awsomly butchered tracking and in the worst possable condition as well as the target ship having a constant and perfect transversal orbit (a thing impossable on TQ as you well know) the abaddon was still hitting the target for significan dmg inside blaster optimal.
So for those who missed the point:
If after having its tracking screwed over down to 0.00207 while a good skilled pilot with MF gets 0.04219(im not sre what % that is but its a lot) a pulse BS can still hit at uber close range, how is a rather pitiful 7.5%-10% tracking nerf to pulse gonna do anything worthwhile?.
I hope this clarifies things a little.
i dont see that much of a problem here if the target BS is under multiple web it mean its almost stationary so yeah even with low tracking the abaddon still hit his target and so will do the mega. under the same conditions the mega and abaddon will do almost the same turret dps (the mega win because of drones) but you have to consider that both the ships have the same 25% damage bonus but the abbaddon have 1 more turret, im not speaking of tracking because following your example both of the ships are nearly immobile, but if both of them was moving the mega would win even with current TQ stats, now add a tracking nerf to laser and is even more easy for the mega.
after all of this im not contrary to a 10% boost to both tracking and dps of blaster but numbers over that would be unbalanced.
my idea of balancing is still: -give blaster a damage and tracking boost nothing exagerated (5-10% max) -leave laser damage and range where they are now but get rid of the tracking bonus its no longer needed after speednerf -adjust autocannons so they will be the range and versatile weapon they should be they should do less damage than blaster in the 0-15km range zone and outdamage the on the over 15km zone, but they should do more damage than laser in the 0-15km zone and get outdamaged over the 15km.
about long range weapons i think rails and beams are well balanced (tachyons are awesome but i got no great problem with them they have theyr drawbacks), artillery is another story and need to be looked deeply.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.06.04 14:27:00 -
[417]
Originally by: Seishi Maru on any 1v1 fight. You can say that is rare...specially in 0.0 ... but "240 km sniping" is also not so common... specially in empire. So stil remaisns that each sides has its advantages.
I do from tiem to time see solo or paired tempest in low sec gates and stations... pirates. NEver ever saw a pirate in a solo APOC....
Tempest do not need to match apoc as sniper.. matching megatron would be enough. Tempest already has more dps tahn megatron.. until the arti reload hits.. (the clip is an issue that suirely needs immediate correction). Just makign range modules give falloff bonus woudl minimaly increase effective range of others, while significantly increase for minmatar. Correct the clip issue and make some alpha striek tweaking and I woudl even drop my apoc for a tempest once in a while (and i trained into apoc to replace my tempest exaclty).
All of these things are not equal.
i.e. You are average at solo PvP, which I suck at, and I am good with gangs and in fleet... See everything has it's place, perfect.
You cross training away from the Tempest says it all. I am not criticizing though, because I am doing the same thing.
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.04 14:39:00 -
[418]
Originally by: To mare
i dont see that much of a problem here if the target BS is under multiple web it mean its almost stationary so yeah even with low tracking the abaddon still hit his target and so will do the mega. under the same conditions the mega and abaddon will do almost the same turret dps (the mega win because of drones) but you have to consider that both the ships have the same 25% damage bonus but the abbaddon have 1 more turret, im not speaking of tracking because following your example both of the ships are nearly immobile, but if both of them was moving the mega would win even with current TQ stats, now add a tracking nerf to laser and is even more easy for the mega.
You are missing the point.
The fact is that BS are gang ships and as such multiple webs will always be available and used on a target ship.
Do not think that i miss the fact that at blaster optimal in a abaddon vs mega 1 v 1 fight with max transversal orbit speeds the mega stands a reasonable chance of beating the abaddon but the fact is that those fights only happen in 3 places.
1. On paper. 2. On EFT graph. 3. On sissi in a BF area in a 1 v 1 fight.
You cannot balance BS using 1 v 1 stats because CCP has deliberatly made solo BS pvp a non issue with the web nerfs amoung other things.
Originally by: To mare about long range weapons i think rails and beams are well balanced (tachyons are awesome but i got no great problem with them they have theyr drawbacks), artillery is another story and need to be looked deeply.
Tachyons on a apoc have the highest dps of all sniper turrets, the highest tracking of all sniper turrets, virtually max range optimal, no need to reload and can be used on a cap stable ship fit...because of the apocs bonuses they are one of the most OP turrets in the game.
But your right about arties they suck and need work.
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bubbly bird
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Posted - 2009.06.04 14:42:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: Seishi Maru
run the nubmer before throwing things off. A tempest liek that at 170 km would have MORE damage than a megatron at same range. And at 220 km would be so far ahead of the magatrron that woudl not even be funny.
And still well behind the apoc. I think that tells a lot tbh...
someoen must be the best sniper. Nothign wrogn with that.
The problem is not that its the best the problem is that it is the best by WAY WAY WAY to big a margin.
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Electric Universe
The Choir
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Posted - 2009.06.04 14:51:00 -
[420]
Edited by: Electric Universe on 04/06/2009 14:54:38
Originally by: bubbly bird Edited by: bubbly bird on 04/06/2009 10:25:19
Originally by: Electric Universe
Dude, was i talking about sisi here?. We have something called TQ.
And a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on Sisi wont hit a Tempest any harder if it was a 1200+ DPS gank geddon on TQ. 1200 DPS is still 1200 DPS.
The sort of fight you are talking about only happens on sissi.
Stop wasting ppls time with your worthless 1 v 1 sissi data as anybody can setup a active tank BS so it can tank 1200+dps from 2 dmg types.
Originally by: Electric Universe Yes the Abaddon have higher resists than the Megathron in total. And if you put in 50-60 mill isk extra into the Megathron instead of paying that much extra to get an Abaddon, you will do around 1% more DPS than the Abaddon after resists then.
WRONG.
Even if you use faction ANP's it will still have less, but even if it did have 1% more we are talking about the range being in blaster optimal so the dps differance should be at least 10-20%.
Originally by: Electric Universe LOL, no matter what you say, if you just want it and want to risk to lose your ship, then a Blaster Mega is still a good solo PVP ship even when you risk to lose the ship sometimes.
Get a frigging clue you fool a solo ship that is either useless or vulnerable to almost EVERY ship smaller than it is a useless solo ship.
Originally by: Electric Universe EDIT: LOL, NightmareX told me that he have spend 400 mill isk more into his Navy Mega.
See here, this is his new setup: LINK.
Yes, that's with his skills. With all skills on level 5, he will have 81.7% EM resist just to tell you how much better the rest of the resists gets to.
He doesn't have a slave set right now, that's why you only see 42k armor. With a LG slave set, he will get 286k EHP.
There has already been a warning given to brining up alts and who's who trolling of this thread so i suggest you pack in using such obvious bait in your posts to try and start off topic arguments about your main cos i will be reporting it and pointing out your provocations, manipulations and lies.
1st thing. Where did i say what kind of PVP i was doing there?. I was only saying that IF a 1200+ DPS geddon was shooting me on Sisi, it woudn't do more damage to my Tempest on TQ. It would still do 1200 DPS no matter what. And the resists to my Tempest is 100% the same on both TQ and Sisi.
I think you should start reading what i'm saying at least 5 times from now on before you post anything.
2nd thing. Yes the 2x Damage mods Megathron will do 1% more DPS than the Abaddon. But the Abaddon will have more EHP or armor hp because the Mega use 2x plates. Remember that NightmareX did a really nice maths of why NightmareX's Navy Mega with 2 faction ANP's (that is dirt cheap) and 2 damage mods was doing more DPS, had more EHP than the Abaddon earlier.
And because the Navy Mega have exact same DPS output as the Mega, then they are both doing the same DPS.
The only thing that is different is that a normal Mega have 7 low slots while the Navy Mega have 8. So the normal Mega have one lesser plate. So it have lower armor hp.
But hey, we are comparing a tier 2 ship with a tier 3 ship stats wise lol. You can't get the Mega to have better stats than the Abaddon if both of the ships use the same type of setups.
But with the EANM'S and ANP's that was used on his Mega earlier, that Mega was then doing 1% more DPS because of the resists. Yes NightmareX did calculate out why the Navy Mega was doing 1% more DPS + had 3k more EHP than the Abaddon. He had included the total resists values in that math.
And because the Navy Mega & Mega have 100% the same DPS output, then the normal Mega are still doing 1% more DPS than the Abaddon.
3rd thing. Solo PVP are still doable no matter whatyou say.You just have to use your brain a bit, like you can't.
4th thing. Oh the tears[:lol:.
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