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Ginko Joukai
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:17:00 -
[1]
CCP,
I thank you for listening to the playerbase's suggestion many months back about changing the stealth bomber to torpedoes and giving it a better stealth capability.
The stealth bomber now is -almost- fixed. I hope you devs will listen to us (or at least me :P ) again on the SB issues.
Back then, there were two camps arguing about the changes to SB weaponry. One side argued for Torpedoes the other argued for Citadel Torpedoes (of which I was part of).
Today, with the Torpedoes being implemented, I see the very issues arising from the use of regular torpedoes compared to the use of Citadels. This was predicted and it has happened.
To begin, torpedoes, even with a damage bonus, are unable to provide decisive spike damage unless used in a large group. Aka, you need about 8 to 10 bombers to 1-salvo kill a single, mediocre fit battleship.
That makes the stealth bomber as-is rather pointless because if you think about it, you need 10 players in T2 ships to take down a single player in a T1 battleship.
Furthermore, the current use of torpedoes from long range with T2 torps or short range with T1's puts the bomber in two positions: shoot from very long range and watch the targets warp out (please, no arguments about bringing a scrambler t2 cruiser, we're talking SB vs BS here) or fire from close range without being able to warp out (missiles wont hit) or recloak (15 sec delay) and be at the mercy of the BS's drones. In short, damned if you do, damned if you dont. We are back to the same problem we had with cruise missiles in that respect.
The solution we argued for back then was the use of Citadel Torpedoes.
Citadel torpedeos have very long range by default (i believe before bonuses or skills its 68km range max..with skills its out to almost 150km), have a big spike damage and are VERY visible in-flight.
Equipping the Citadels on the stealth bomber would give the bomber the very long range bombardment ability and gives it a lethal payload for the ONE or two salvos they can fire before dying or exiting a fight.
Bonuses would need to be added to the SB to adapt the citadel damage to hit battleship sized targets for full damage (and lose all hope of killing frigates or cruisers with it).
Rather than a racial damage bonus, give the SB's a racial equipment bonus. Aka Caldari=ewar range Gallente = targeting range bonus Minmatar= cloaked speed Amarr = armor HP equivalent to a T1 cruiser.
Change the Bomb Launcher to be a Heavy Munitions Launcher. Its ammo will be citadel torpedoes and bombs. only 1 bomb or torpedo can be loaded in the launcher at any given time. to fire a 2nd you will need to reload the launcher.
- add stat to bombs: firing a bomb consumes 49% of capacitor. Making it impossible to fire more than 2 bombs at a time unless you load your ship with cap injectors and such.
- increase cargo hold to accommodate 6 bombs and 12 torpedoes. This will make the bomber have limited shots as opposed to carrying 100+ regular torpedoes as it does now.
Do this and the stealth bomber can be effective vs battleships in small groups of 2 or 3 bombers and in bigger groups of 8 to 14 will be a danger to capital ships.
These few simple changes will put the bomber solidly in its niche without being overpowered.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:38:00 -
[2]
Stealth bombers are fin as it, you are using them wrong.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Wannabehero
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ginko Joukai To begin, torpedoes, even with a damage bonus, are unable to provide decisive spike damage unless used in a large group. Aka, you need about 8 to 10 bombers to 1-salvo kill a single, mediocre fit battleship.
Who says you have to kill your target in one salvo? One-shot killing everything is not a fun or productive aspect in any multiplayer PvP game.
Originally by: Ginko Joukai
Furthermore, the current use of torpedoes from long range with T2 torps or short range with T1's puts the bomber in two positions: shoot from very long range and watch the targets warp out (please, no arguments about bringing a scrambler t2 cruiser, we're talking SB vs BS here) or fire from close range without being able to warp out (missiles wont hit) or recloak (15 sec delay) and be at the mercy of the BS's drones. In short, damned if you do, damned if you dont. We are back to the same problem we had with cruise missiles in that respect.
Firstly, to say your gang should only be stealth bombers is short-sighted and, quite frankly, full of fail. There is a whole suite of ships capable of covert operation, and your gang should make use of these. Not every ship needs to be a gank platform. That single BS you need to one-shot salvo using 13 stealth-bombers to protect yourself from his drones could likewise be killed by two stealth bombers and a single Arazu, with none of your ships suffering a single scratch.
Originally by: Ginko Joukai
Citadel Torpedoes.
Are you familiar with citadel torpedoes? They are slow, the rate of fire is horrendous (to offset the massive alpha), and each torpedo cost upwards of 275,000 ISK. I don't know about most people, but I don't want to blow 2.5 million ISK in ammunition per enemy battleship I blow up.
Originally by: Ginko Joukai These few simple changes will put the bomber solidly in its niche...
Stealth bombers have found their niche and are pretty well designed around it. The only improvement I could possibly see being implemented for bombers is a moderate buff to bomb damage -OR- bomb launcher rate of fire (recent production and velocity bonuses were all very welcomed as well). --
Don't harsh my mellow |
Siobhan Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:51:00 -
[4]
TL;DR: Oh HAI, my SB still doesn't single-volley BSes so I think they're underpowered.
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Savasta
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Posted - 2009.05.19 17:51:00 -
[5]
I tried to write a good post as a counter argument. All I could come up with is:
No. Your ideas are... bad.
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Shereza
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ginko Joukai Do this and the stealth bomber can be effective vs battleships in small groups of 2 or 3 bombers and in bigger groups of 8 to 14 will be a danger to capital ships.
These few simple changes will put the bomber solidly in its niche without being overpowered.
... I think this right here is the biggest "this is a troll thread" sign I read. I mean other than the "oooooh, ahhhhhh" factor of citadel torpedoes being brought in as a reason to be allowed to use them on a stealth bomber.
What's next, pod-operated mobile gun platforms? A destroyer hull that's nothing more than a mobile dual giga beam laser? ..... ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:05:00 -
[7]
The only thing stupider than needing to fit three 40 mill ISK modules to a 20 mill SB is the graphical effect of fitting a SB to three Citadel launchers.
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Ginko Joukai
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:14:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ginko Joukai on 19/05/2009 18:23:15
Originally by: Wannabehero
Who says you have to kill your target in one salvo? One-shot killing everything is not a fun or productive aspect in any multiplayer PvP game.
I am not saying ONE ship should single shot another. The concept of the SB is single strike high damage. It takes that many SB's to single strike - eliminate a battleship (the SB's intended target). The SB is NOT a damage over time nor a multi-salvo ship. Hence, one or two shots must be effective. Hence, a bigger missile is needed otherwise you need to use almost a dozen T2 ships to spike a single T1 BS.
Is that concept too hard to grasp?
Quote:
Firstly, to say your gang should only be stealth bombers is short-sighted and, quite frankly, full of fail. There is a whole suite of ships capable of covert operation,
Just stop right there, the rest of your argument ignores yet again, the fact that the SB itself does insufficient spike damage to efficiently take down a BS. Those two SB's will take multiple salvos each to kill the BS. That scenario works only if the BS is alone.
Quote:
Are you familiar with citadel torpedoes? They are slow, the rate of fire is horrendous (to offset the massive alpha), and each torpedo cost upwards of 275,000 ISK. I don't know about most people, but I don't want to blow 2.5 million ISK in ammunition per enemy battleship I blow up.
Yes I am very familiar with them. How about applying some brain power trying to understand how it'd work in the stealth bomber?.
Rate of fire in SB = not a factor. You get 1 shot per attack run. This is where the 3-4 SB's added spike damage comes into play to one-shot or cripple a BS in one run.
2.5 mill isk to blow up a 50+ mill isk battleship is bad math? Oh wait, maybe you think that putting your 30+ mill SB at high risk by firing multiple salvos of cheap torpedoes makes more sense.
Slow = balance. From very short range the citadels would give little to no chance of a target warping out but the SB is at high risk. From very long range it gives the target plenty of time to warp out... but the SB fires from a relatively safety (making it useful in fleet engagements or via using passive targetter)
The limited ammo (cargo space to carry the torps) and its low re-load rate also balances the bomber's damage potential. You cannot have a group of 3 to 4 SB's insta-popping BS's in a fleet action every 20 seconds.
Quote:
Stealth bombers have found their niche and are pretty well designed around it.
I strongly disagree with that. The SB right now is in the same situation it was when it fired cruise missiles: ineffective spike damage (the covert cloak was an unexpected bonus from CCP).
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Ginko Joukai
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gypsio III The only thing stupider than needing to fit three 40 mill ISK modules to a 20 mill SB is the graphical effect of fitting a SB to three Citadel launchers.
if you had bothered to read the post you may have noticed the bomb launchers were to be renamed 'heavy munitions launcher' and fire both bombs and citadel torps. That problem is solved.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:44:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ginko Joukai Edited by: Ginko Joukai on 19/05/2009 18:23:15
Originally by: Wannabehero
Who says you have to kill your target in one salvo? One-shot killing everything is not a fun or productive aspect in any multiplayer PvP game.
I am not saying ONE ship should single shot another. The concept of the SB is single strike high damage.
No.
Where on earth did you get that idea? It was never stated to be that. Not once.
That was the ONLY role people could sc**** together from the abortion that was the cruise missile (and originally 2-launcher, lol) bomber - alpha striking stationary frigs.
When they got totally overhauled, that "role" (not really a role is it) was effectively discarded. If you can't see that they're designed with a high-DPS cloaking or frigate wolfpack role in mind, then the problem is with you, not the design.
You're trying to use it in a ******ed role (lol, alpha striking BATTLESHIPS), and then complaining that it doesn't work. Of course it should not be alpha striking bs, unless you have ******edly high numbers, in which case, so would any ship.
Don't start on the (moronic) idea that the main tactic with bombers is to fire, and then cloak, and thus you need to get the kill before 15 seconds are up. That would be incredibly absurd.
Hint: its a cloaking, frigate. In both the group of ships that cloak, and the group of ships that are frigates, there are each 4 ships that can tackle at range, and entirely incapacitate opponents, leaving bombers free to do DPS over time. I.e. in any sitution where you should be in a bomber, you should always have EAF or Force recon wingman.
I dont know how the OP got onto making this post - I mean, its pretty rare in EVE for a ship to get a massive boost in every stat and aspect, a complete redesign in function, then have its proposed drawbacks removed (eg cloak was going to be 30s), and then STILL have someone claim it needs a boost. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
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Lady Thanatos
The Forbidden Hunters Dominatus Atrum Mortis
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:56:00 -
[11]
This smells of troll... all over it.
But I will bite, it's a frigate. Let me repeat myself...FRIGATE.
Okay once more for good measure... FRIGATE.
Maybe a third time to get it through everyone elses skull (are you ready for this one?) FRIGATE!
How should a relatively low-skill ship (notice the term relatively), take down a battleship. The ship is designed to AID in killing larger ships, NOT solo kill them. The idea behind frigates is they are small and hard to hit, they are not supposed to pack such a punch as to one volley a battleship.
What the hell would happen to the rest of eve if SB's got the proposed buff, NO ONE WOULD FLY ANYTHING OTHER THAN A STEALTH BOMBER. It's pretty simple, they work well now, if used properly they are a fearsome tool in war. HOWEVER, they aren't supposed to be the cheap be all, end all of battleship killing.
TLDR: L2P, get a brain.
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Wongdong
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: shereza What's next, pod-operated mobile gun platforms?
yessss,do iti want guns and shields and armor on my pod too
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.05.19 23:07:00 -
[13]
lolwat
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4THELULZ
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Posted - 2009.05.19 23:19:00 -
[14]
Edited by: 4THELULZ on 19/05/2009 23:19:16
Quote: To begin, torpedoes, even with a damage bonus, are unable to provide decisive spike damage unless used in a large group. Aka, you need about 8 to 10 bombers to 1-salvo kill a single, mediocre fit battleship.
Didn't bother reading past here. The fact you think being able to alpha a battleship with these is a must for them to be usable just shows you're too clueless for the rest to even be worth looking at.
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Wannabehero
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2009.05.19 23:45:00 -
[15]
"The Definitive Guide to Electronic Warfare"
Start here. It's a little outdated, but it'll get you started in the right direction.
Hint: You don't need to single salvo alpha-strike kill your targets to still win. --
Don't harsh my mellow |
Muad' Dib
Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.19 23:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gypsio III The only thing stupider than needing to fit three 40 mill ISK modules to a 20 mill SB is the graphical effect of fitting a SB to three Citadel launchers.
Launchers have graphic models ... since when ? --- I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.20 00:13:00 -
[17]
Hint to the clueless: you have a covops cloak and are now welcome in recon gangs. Try bringing a recon to lock down the target and you won't need to whine about not having an insta-pop alpha strike on a single T2 frigate. An Arazu works very well for this, BTW. -----------
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2009.05.20 00:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: 4THELULZ Edited by: 4THELULZ on 19/05/2009 23:19:16
Quote: To begin, torpedoes, even with a damage bonus, are unable to provide decisive spike damage unless used in a large group. Aka, you need about 8 to 10 bombers to 1-salvo kill a single, mediocre fit battleship.
Didn't bother reading past here. The fact you think being able to alpha a battleship with these is a must for them to be usable just shows you're too clueless for the rest to even be worth looking at.
Seriously, for a frigate hull with a cov ops cloak, their DPS is more than fine.
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Warrio
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.20 01:11:00 -
[19]
You have well demonstrated the point that SBs are not very effective solo boats. You have neglected to mention however that they are not really meant to be. sXe |
Misanth
The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.20 02:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Stealth bombers are fin as it, you are using them wrong.
- I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
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Misanth
The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.20 02:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Hint to the clueless: you have a covops cloak and are now welcome in recon gangs. Try bringing a recon to lock down the target and you won't need to whine about not having an insta-pop alpha strike on a single T2 frigate. An Arazu works very well for this, BTW.
You mean something like this? - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Shining Tears
Caldari The DARLEXS
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Posted - 2009.05.20 04:06:00 -
[22]
my question is this, how do you add 3 of something which one alone is the size of a battlecruiser onto a frig?
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Haram Haram
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Posted - 2009.05.20 09:37:00 -
[23]
Ductape and chewwy ofcourse.
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Steed Rilelore
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Posted - 2009.05.20 10:52:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Steed Rilelore on 20/05/2009 10:53:57
Originally by: Ginko Joukai Edited by: Ginko Joukai on 19/05/2009 18:23:15 I am not saying ONE ship should single shot another. The concept of the SB is single strike high damage. It takes that many SB's to single strike - eliminate a battleship (the SB's intended target). The SB is NOT a damage over time nor a multi-salvo ship. Hence, one or two shots must be effective. Hence, a bigger missile is needed otherwise you need to use almost a dozen T2 ships to spike a single T1 BS.
Who said a Stealth-Bombers' target was a battleship? Plus I personally just hate the T2 vs T1 argument. Next thing we hear is someone saying that "My strategic cruiser is T3 - so I should be taking down a T1 class Dread!". Keep in mind also, that a single Stealth Bomber can probably already SOLO a "mediocre fitted T1 battleship" - providing the battleship doesn't have small drones, and the bomber tackles and orbits the target. That, and we can also argue about the concept of a "battleship", which yes, I find it stupid to bring down a "battleship" with 3 or 4 friggates in one volley.
I, for one, was happy with cruise missiles on a stealth bomber. A bunch of frigs could one volley a cruiser or a T2 frig, a SB could one shot a T1 frig, they dealed very good volley damage. I applaude the move to make them more 'stealthy', and to add on the bomb launcher as an additional weapon. They changed that to torps, so now yes, a Stealth bomber is stuck only shooting battleships since the damage on anything else is useless. But you are also forgetting that a stealth "bomber" also uses "bombs" - which DO indeed do high portion of damage, very quickly, and with an AE effect. You don't even have to be there when it blows up. And 3 or 4 Stealth bombers can EASILY destroy even a well-fitted battleships if they each drop a bomb AND fire off a volley of torps already.
Originally by: Ginko Joukai Edited by: Ginko Joukai on 19/05/2009 18:23:15 Just stop right there, the rest of your argument ignores yet again, the fact that the SB itself does insufficient spike damage to efficiently take down a BS. Those two SB's will take multiple salvos each to kill the BS. That scenario works only if the BS is alone.
Again - do remember the concept of a "Battleship" - it's not MEANT to be killed by two frigs. Stealth bombers yes - would deal a spike damage VERY painful to the battleship - even more so if they yes again, use bombs - but not kill it in a few volleys.
Originally by: Ginko Joukai Edited by: Ginko Joukai on 19/05/2009 18:23:15 I strongly disagree with that. The SB right now is in the same situation it was when it fired cruise missiles: ineffective spike damage (the covert cloak was an unexpected bonus from CCP).
It's about the same - with the difference being that now it's stuck only shooting at the bigger ships. Congrats. However your Torps still do over 900 damage per Torp - which goes up with more skills / implants etc. You are basically getting very close to 3k volley damage FROM A FRIGGATE - how is that not sufficient? And yes, I have to say it - you get another 7.5k damage if you add a bomb to the equation added onto that volley. So to summarise - 10k damage, from a volley, from a friggate, that fires instantly after uncloaking, and warps off before the target battleship has a chance to fire. The only thing that I am disappointed IS the fact that they have switched it from the Cruise Missiles, as you could have used the "volley + bomb" strategy to take out enemy logistics and support cruisers sitting at range - but I see no reason to complain that it is inefficient.
And to add on to whoever already said it a couple of times - FRIGGATE
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Nicyra
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.20 11:08:00 -
[25]
Except that you're in a ship the size of a yacht, and they're in a ship the size of a large shopping mall. Why do you expect to oneshot them? ------------------------------------------------ I am a Khanid fighting for the Minmatar. I lurk in Minmatar channel. No, you cannot have my autograph.
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Schnitzar
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Posted - 2009.05.20 11:10:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Hint to the clueless: you have a covops cloak and are now welcome in recon gangs. Try bringing a recon to lock down the target and you won't need to whine about not having an insta-pop alpha strike on a single T2 frigate. An Arazu works very well for this, BTW.
You mean something like this?
This
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AnKahn
Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.
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Posted - 2009.05.20 14:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Hint to the clueless: you have a covops cloak and are now welcome in recon gangs. Try bringing a recon to lock down the target and you won't need to whine about not having an insta-pop alpha strike on a single T2 frigate. An Arazu works very well for this, BTW.
You mean something like this?
I wonder if the Manticore was using target painters. I'm not sure but I think a Rook is smaller than a BS.
It's not that you can't hit anything small. You can't hit anything fast. If you can't figure out how to use a SB then don't use one.
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.20 15:08:00 -
[28]
Repeat with me:
Recon Escorts Recon Escorts Recon Escorts Recon Escorts
/me gets caught in a loop...
Recon Escorts
PS: RECON ESCORTS! --
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance Vort3x.
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Posted - 2009.05.20 15:14:00 -
[29]
OP you are horrible troll. Go back under your bridge.
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