Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Gabriel Karade
Gallente Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 13:58:00 -
[181]
Gadzooks! PvE that isnGÇÖt going to be whack-a-mole?!... Quickly to the forumobile!... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:02:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Amael Galenus
Bottom line? Maybe we should all hold off on the rabble rabble rabble until the Sleepers hit TQ
Or perhaps not. Perhaps we should all go onto Sisi and test what has been put up there so that CCP get good information now so that they can balance the Sleepers before they hit TQ!
Perhaps in all the rabble rabble there are some valid points being made on how the Sleepers stack up on difficulty, and instead of going all angsty on us, CCP should take at least some of those remarks seriously. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Skaaj
Universal Star
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:03:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Skaaj on 20/02/2009 14:03:37
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: OMGJITA
i love how "ccp" doing npc AI, has turned in to "lets make them totally friggin uber" 100km NOS/neut, 4million dps at 100km....
I originally pushed for this but then I was injected with something and calmed down.
I'm glad to see so many people in this thread looking forward to PVE becoming more than just, "Launch drones, turn on armor rep, make sandwich." The intent of the AI revamp and wormhole space is specifically intended to give players a challenge.
While it's likely that a very skilled player might be able to solo some of the least dangerous areas of wormhole space (in a properly set up ship), when you start poking around in the more dangerous areas, it's highly advisable that you bring some friends to assist you.
So you're making the NPC's more like Players to create a challenge in PVE, by giving them e-war etc.
Will Players be able to successfully use E-war to defend themselves? If a sleeper can Nuet me to death am I able to neut a sleeper so that he cannot rep/fire?
Can I Tracking distrupt a Sleeper to keep my drones safe? can I jam a Sleeper to keep him from getting a lock on me/my drones/my gangmates?
any information ccp can provide before hand may calm the forums a bit. As it stands people seem to think the NPC's will be getting nearer human like skills and tactics, with no drawbacks.
|
5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:22:00 -
[184]
I thought they said wormhole space isn't going to be another toy for the alliances?
The way sleepers are, a giant blob of players are well suited to taking them down.
|
Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:27:00 -
[185]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy The way sleepers are, a giant blob of players are well suited to taking them down.
A giant blob of players isn't likely to get through before the wormhole collapses. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=GǪ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
Muhammed Jafar
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:28:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: Muhammed Jafar
Originally by: CCP Abathur
I'm glad to see so many people in this thread looking forward to PVE becoming more than just, "Launch drones, turn on armor rep, make sandwich."
No one said they wanted it that way. People want assurance that the weapon system they trained for won't be useless in w-space.
But I'm glad to see you try and marginalize the argument of everyone opposing you, and only see those posts that support your idea.
you could wait and see how these things actually pan out before getting all uppity. and hey, maybe if your right and drones are useless in w-space you could always ADAPT
or crymoar/ragepoast and give me your stuff
wait, here is me as you: [prik]I'm glad to see you insinuating that people are trying to marginalize every argument you happen to agree with in the thread. You should keep taking sentences out of context and trolling them until someone tells you exactly what you want to hear.[/prik]
just because of you, i hope drones are completely useless for like a year and a half, and all threads and comments regarding them receive a 'working as intended'/lock
What does adapt mean to you? Cause to me it doesn't mean "well everything you trained for is **** now, so train something else."
To me, it means, you'll have to fly your ship differently, fit it a little differently, and pay closer attention. Which is fine.
What I'm saying is, my combat oriented ship that I trained for (which happens to use drones) should do just about as well as your combat oriented ship (which happens to use whatever) in similar situations. Granted each ship has its pro's and cons, but one ship should not be absolute **** when compared with others of the same class (see: deimos, for example).
Answer me this, if CCP released a patch that made it so that mission NPC's suddenly just spewed massive amounts of defender missiles, making all missile boats, essentially useless in PVE, would you say "ADAPT OR QQ lol" Or would you maybe think that thats a bit unfair towards those who trained missiles?
|
5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:30:00 -
[187]
Smaller the ship the more that are allowed through wasn't it?
To me that says large T3 cruiser gang.
|
Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:33:00 -
[188]
CCP, have you internally done those hard encounters with realistic conditions and with minimal losses? ------------------------------------------
|
Mickey Simon
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:39:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Muhammed Jafar What does adapt mean to you? Cause to me it doesn't mean "well everything you trained for is **** now, so train something else."
To me, it means, you'll have to fly your ship differently, fit it a little differently, and pay closer attention. Which is fine.
Correct, drones are still feasible. What it means is that you're actually going to have to put more thought into how you control your drones, similar to the thought any decent PvP pilot puts in. If that's too much thought, w-space is not for you.
Quote: What I'm saying is, my combat oriented ship that I trained for (which happens to use drones) should do just about as well as your combat oriented ship (which happens to use whatever) in similar situations.
It will, you just need to learn how to actually pilot your ship for once, rather than simple sticking your drones on the next target and then aggroing the next group with your railgun when your drones have finished mopping up. If that's too much thought, w-space is not for you. What the **** do you think happens when you stick drones on a battleship, and then he smartbombs? ****, I think your drones get damaged! Sometimes even destroyed!
Quote: Granted each ship has its pro's and cons, but one ship should not be absolute **** when compared with others of the same class (see: deimos, for example).
Deimos isn't absolutely **** compared to others of its own class.
Quote: Answer me this, if CCP released a patch that made it so that mission NPC's suddenly just spewed massive amounts of defender missiles, making all missile boats, essentially useless in PVE, would you say "ADAPT OR QQ lol" Or would you maybe think that thats a bit unfair towards those who trained missiles?
If they have enough defender missiles to counter all the missiles that I launch at them, well good job. As long as it's semi balanced and they don't have a ****load of weapons/hislot ewar as well (given defenders take up hislots) then that would be fine. Weird, but not a cause for me to come onto the forums and have a massive whine about it while making myself look extremely foolish to everyone reading my posts.
|
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:46:00 -
[190]
Mickey Simon said " Correct, drones are still feasible. What it means is that you're actually going to have to put more thought into how you control your drones, similar to the thought any decent PvP pilot puts in. If that's too much thought, w-space is not for you." It that guess work or have you actually gone out and managed to get drones working against Sleepers? The sleepers are not acting like decent PvP pilot as the Sleepers have equipment well beyond decent PvP pilots. Tactics that work against decent PvP pilots do not work against Sleepers. If there is a way to get drones working against sleeper but it requires thinking then I don't see a problem. But right now even those who are thinking have failed to get drones working.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
|
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 14:47:00 -
[191]
To be perfectly fair, as a drone boat pilot myself. You really should have been training other skills to ensure viability anyway.
Any decent Gallente pilot should also have their gunnery specs, armor resists, etc... And once you finish those specializations, generally unless you're going for capital engagements you start training other race ship lines so you can switch out when the situation calls for it.
... in any event drones still work with sleepers. They just require some unique mgt and using dif drone types other than the highest DPS against rat resists. Sentries work, they just require more than "drop at warp in, turn on armor rep, wait" |
Major Celine
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 15:15:00 -
[192]
I really like the fact that sleepers are no usual NPCs and hard to fight...
More profit = more risk
|
DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes Chain of Chaos
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 16:52:00 -
[193]
Making pve encounters resembling pvp encounters is good, ideally you need to scramble the rats as well. This way pve is more a trainingground towards pvp survival and victory then an isk grinding experience.
Imho lvl1 missions should be soloable, with lvl2 being risky but hard and lvl3 and requiring groupbased play. - - -
Originally by: CCP Prism X I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.
|
Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 16:53:00 -
[194]
I don't think this thread is about the difficulty of the Sleepers, it is about the suspicion that whatever you do with drones, it will not work. The problem here is that if only one tactic works against the Sleepers, and all others are not viable, going to w-space and fighting those Sleepers is going to be cookie-cutter grinding. If you have to fly a passive tanked shield tanker that doesn't use cap for anything, then the whole setup is not going to be worth it for a lot of players. And not many players will then make the effort. That's not balance, that's not fun, that's as far from it as it can be.
I'm going to test this this weekend, but if the Sleepers are really nothing more than blowing up drones very efficiently, well kudos to CCP for that, but I had higher hopes for the Sleepers. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Khorkrak
Gallente The 0ri
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 17:03:00 -
[195]
Why are they called Sleepers? They don't seem to be too sleepy...
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 20:04:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: 5pinDizzy The way sleepers are, a giant blob of players are well suited to taking them down.
A giant blob of players isn't likely to get through before the wormhole collapses.
From what was said so far about wormholes 0.0 will have wormholes with much larger mass allowance, so 0.0 alliances will have the possibility to bring large blobs, people not in 0.0 will not.
Almost certainly longer duration WH too, so a way easier time farming them.
So a 0.0 alliance will probably have a easier time there if they can spare the manpower.
|
5pinDizzy
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 22:47:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
From what was said so far about wormholes 0.0 will have wormholes with much larger mass allowance, so 0.0 alliances will have the possibility to bring large blobs, people not in 0.0 will not.
Almost certainly longer duration WH too, so a way easier time farming them.
Oh I thought w-space was an equal opportunity thing, but this sounds like really is just another thing to farm for the alliances then?
Seeing as smaller gangs of ships closer to empire that go in will far more likely all die horribly before that take anything down.
Wasn't
- The best rats - The best minerals - The best plexes - officer spawns - Moon mining
Enough for them?
Figures I suppose...
Oh well, at least we're going to be getting the odd battleship belt spawn in lowsec when the patch comes out.
Nullsec alliances could have free jelly and ice cream for all I care, I hated boring headache filled days when I used to be in a nullsec alliance, I can only just about tolerate being pushed around by the main members in my current lowsec/empire alliance, sort of a requirement to be in an outfit to get more action unfortunately.
|
Phyo
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 23:34:00 -
[198]
So Gallente has to fly gallente ships.. damn.. never knew that.. Guess you'll have to arrest me cause I don't play according 'your' rules @ topic starter.
Seriously : if a passive tanked caldari battlecruiser suits your needs better then your drone domi, why don't you just switch ? I haven't found a reason to train up any minmatar crap ships or those too would have found their way onto my spaceship command skill section.
|
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 23:42:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Muhammed Jafar What does adapt mean to you? Cause to me it doesn't mean "well everything you trained for is **** now, so train something else."
To me it means I get near sexual orgasmic spasms when I read whines about Amarr right now. After sticking to the race when everyone said "lol, Amarr" and told me to cross-train for 2 years.
So, if you got some endurance and balls, and it's as bad as you doomsday sayer think, then you might have near sexual orgasmic spasms in two years from now.
Just think about it.
|
Spurty
Caldari Amok. Minor Threat.
|
Posted - 2009.02.21 12:12:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Spurty on 21/02/2009 12:16:15 a real test would be to take in enough ships to close the wormhole, then try again.
seems obvious enough to me (like a big clue with a neon sign saying you need to be this tall before entering) that the mechanic of mass has some colloration with the numbers of ships needed to do the job.
I would like to try this out before trying to optimize isk income by reducing numbers a bit.
CCP, don't nerf sleepers, but do feel free to normalize the normal ones weapons :P BrRAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiNNNNNNZzzzzzzzzzzz |
|
Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation
|
Posted - 2009.02.21 12:49:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Dinsdale Pirannha
Originally by: CCP Prism X I cannot really answer your questions, but I can offer perspective.
What about Amarr? Their weapon systems as well as tank relies on cap, and the sleepers neut you like there's no tomorrow. They also negate range and seem to try to counter-act speed tanking.. bloody nanoboats! Point being I don't think that Gallente have it any worse off than the other races. Sleepers are just plain ebul.
I feel you man. Been a long time since I PvEd and, even if it wasnt, I'm pretty certain I can't carry much of my old methods over to Sleeper space. I've never been much for drones.. but I guess there's some dancing involved with recalling drones under attack back and launching fresh ones while you recharge their damanged shields. The aim is to make NPCs behave more like PCs so I guess PvP rules would be more applicable, but I can't tell you what they are as I don't fly Gallente.
But at any rate, it's Sleeper space is not really a welcome place for a lone wanderer. So I guess you could always hope that your team-mates take the brunt of the enemy fire.
A few points:
1. Agreed that short/medium range Amarr take a huge nerf here as well. 2. Re PvP, did you watch the PvP alliance tourney? Exactly how many people were focusing on hammering drones? And that was PvP small gang warfare with the best pilots around. Yet that is exactly what you are proposing here, small gang warfare. And how many drone boats were used? I saw an awful lot of Ishtars, Ishkurs, Navy Vexors in that tourney. But NONE of those boats are remotely useful now. 3. You just said you don't fly Gallente, nor like drones.
So based on those points, a few observations.
a. You really can't keep recalling drones and sending out new waves. They are in transit so much they are never fighting. Oh, and your Sleepers are webbing the drones and insta-popping them, so the point is moot. b. I never stated I would solo this. Clearly only cohesive squads of superb pilots can venture in. c. You say other races are hit hard too. Exactly how is a Raven firing at 150 km away affected? Or an Apoc firing at 180 km? As long as they can outrun the NPC's, they are fine.
Conclusions:
With your stated antipathy towards drones, it is clear you don't plan on changing the AI and drone boats are indeed dead. It will be indeed interesting when this filters down to lower levels of PvE and ALL people who fly drones are affected. What will happen when 2 month old chars who never had intentions of going into wormhole space suddenly find their Vexor's Hammerhead's are getting trashed in an L2 misison? Oh BTW, a Vexor's drone bay is only 75 cu m, so he cannot carry 2 waves of medium drones, so even if drones are not webbed, there is no chance of a 2nd wave of drones.
Im flying 90% Minmatar but in the last half year i started to use ishtars etc. because they can do so many things at the same time with a good overall outcome. Perhaps you should just look at an other ship and dont rely only on one or two. If the ishtar isnt working well in w-space then why dont you use an other one? Its not CCPs fault that the ishtar wont be the right ship for everything.
Amarr ships dont work vs special NPCs very well, some Ships only work in special situations, and others dont work in any. Thats EvE get an other ship there is no game mechanic preventing you from doing it.
|
Esmenet
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.02.21 22:50:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Gadzooks! PvE that isnGÇÖt going to be whack-a-mole?!... Quickly to the forumobile!...
There is nothing even remotely challenging about making one weapon system subpar/usless.
|
Noriko Rei
|
Posted - 2009.02.22 06:55:00 -
[203]
The typical response here is: Stay out of W-space if you don't like it. Unfortunately, that blatantly glosses over the OP's concern. What will be the use (or fun) of flying drone boats in PvE if/when this AI is implemented in all NPCs?
If I wanted PvP, I'd PvP. I want a relaxing experience for my money, so I PvE. CCP has done a fine job catering to both crowds for years. Does CCP plan to implement the Sleeper AI across the board at some point in the future? That's the real question here. Should the answer be yes, some of us might have to seriously consider whether we want to bother with a dramatic increase in difficulty or play another game. It stands to reason that if this change is planned at some point for K-space and Gallente pilots have issues with it, the answer from the devs will be: Stay out of K-space if you don't like it.
To summarize, I like my video games like I like my women - visually stunning and incredibly easy. If CCP is going to take away that little corner of the sandbox for players like me, I'd just like to know now.
|
Ruah Piskonit
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.02.22 07:54:00 -
[204]
1) drone boats will be fine. Use smaller drones, bring spares, fit a Remote Repper. Fit guns, most Gallente drone boats have a hybrid damage bonus. 2) And if you can't figure it out with drone boats. . .it has nothing to do with drones. 3) SiSi is not TQ - keep saying that and stop getting emo.
/thread please ----
|
Alezra
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.02.22 08:06:00 -
[205]
I hate bumping this thread but I want to know, has anyone tried sending small drones against the Sleepers? Is it just straight drone priority that they use or do they target whatever is doing the most damage to them? Is it possible to make sure that you always have more DPS from your ship than your drones to make sure your ship is always the biggest threat? Is it possible to use small and medium drones to avoid drawing too much aggro from drone dps? If drones are instant aggro then has anyone tried loading a Dominix with 75 Warrior Is and using them as bait to draw DPS away from you and your gang members?
|
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services
|
Posted - 2009.02.22 09:53:00 -
[206]
I'm a carebear therefore the recent FW expansion did nothing for me, I demand a refund!
But seriously, the problem with the Sleepers AI - if you want to call it that - is that people are too spoiled by the current broken AI. Currently you land in a mission, aggro everything and from that point onwards nothing else gets attacked be they drones, fleet mates in paper-thin frigates, etc. Put bluntly the current AI is flat out stupid - they never focus on the targets they should, and they will continue to attack in spite of having no hope of success (e.g. a lone frigate rat orbiting a player BS forever).
The problem is not with the new Sleeper AI, it's the players. They are too lazy, too unwilling to adapt, too spoilt. If the Sleeper AI is what stood for PvE AI from the beginning there would be none of this arguing, people would've found a way to adapt to it - just as people found ways of dealing with L5 missions, etc.
Nothing is insurmountable, except perhaps ones willingness to adapt.
|
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
|
Posted - 2009.02.22 10:10:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Durzel I'm a carebear therefore the recent FW expansion did nothing for me, I demand a refund!
But seriously, the problem with the Sleepers AI - if you want to call it that - is that people are too spoiled by the current broken AI. Currently you land in a mission, aggro everything and from that point onwards nothing else gets attacked be they drones, fleet mates in paper-thin frigates, etc. Put bluntly the current AI is flat out stupid - they never focus on the targets they should, and they will continue to attack in spite of having no hope of success (e.g. a lone frigate rat orbiting a player BS forever).
The problem is not with the new Sleeper AI, it's the players. They are too lazy, too unwilling to adapt, too spoilt. If the Sleeper AI is what stood for PvE AI from the beginning there would be none of this arguing, people would've found a way to adapt to it - just as people found ways of dealing with L5 missions, etc.
Nothing is insurmountable, except perhaps ones willingness to adapt.
Pretty much this tbh.
|
Gabriel Karade
Gallente Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
|
Posted - 2009.02.22 10:24:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Gadzooks! PvE that isnGÇÖt going to be whack-a-mole?!... Quickly to the forumobile!...
There is nothing even remotely challenging about making one weapon system subpar/usless.
Drones are a secondary weapon system, and reading the reports in the GD forum, some people are handling their drones fine, others are losing them in droves - sounds like a lack of experience problem to me... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.02.22 10:40:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Gadzooks! PvE that isnGÇÖt going to be whack-a-mole?!... Quickly to the forumobile!...
There is nothing even remotely challenging about making one weapon system subpar/usless.
Drones are a secondary weapon system, and reading the reports in the GD forum, some people are handling their drones fine, others are losing them in droves - sounds like a lack of experience problem to me...
Really? Sounds like the NPC AI targeting the greatest threat to me. And drones are not 'secondary' weapon systems for a lot of ships.
C.
Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
|
EmoRage QuitThread
|
Posted - 2009.02.22 12:45:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Muhammed Jafar Edited by: Muhammed Jafar on 19/02/2009 20:56:31 /begin emo rage
Did someone call?
Here, have a cookie
In the mean time, just chill. You've got to remember that yes, the sleepers will probably pwn the hell out of anything that moves for a while, but, when they notice that no one is able to get any t3 stuff, they'll make it a little easier.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |