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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 47 post(s) |
Cailais
Amarr 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:20:00 -
[811]
Originally by: War Fairy
Originally by: Cailais
A W-POS has a very real risk of simply starving to death.
C.
If all wormholes are 2 way and all systems have a worm hole this is not the case.
A hanger array can hold months and months of fuel. Hell an orca can hold almost 2 months of fuel.
One freighter trip in to the POS and you're good for months. Sure the freighter might be trapped there for a couple days but you only need to move it once every 3-4 months. It's not an on demand solution but it's still a trivial solution.
If you make K-W found through exploration two way but W-K one way that makes the supply problem hard.
Sorry I disagree. If nobody else was involved, then sure - you will be able to refuel with no issues whatsoever. But,and this is an important point, 'other' people will be involved. Those 'other people' are going to be out hunting, with scrams and all manner of nasty scorchy weapons, and theyre gonna be looking for that freighter.
If it's easy for you to resupply a POS in W-Space, its just as easy for the opportunist pirate to 'interdict' that resupply. W-Systems act as a great 'long range roamer' for the pirate. I hop my fleet into one and use it to short cut to another system. I can hide my pirate fleet in one. I just dont think refueling that POS is going to be quite as trivial as some people think.
C.
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Mumble HappyFeet
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:22:00 -
[812]
Originally by: Des Jardin Despite what would no doubt be a logistical nightmare, imagine how cool it would be to build an Outpost in a wormhole system.
... off I go to change my 5-year plan ...
Des Jardin
No sov, so no putting up an Outpost. |
Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:25:00 -
[813]
Originally by: Rex Lashar
Originally by: Gamer4liff Which can't be true because adding more highend moons will increase the supply and probably add more competitors and drive the prices down.
You're ignoring the fact that its already happened, and failed. 8 new Drone Regions, remember? More competitors in the short term to drive prices down. Same nonsense in the long term as the bigger groups consolidate
The only way "add more high end moons" = "lower reactor prices" under current rules, is if you add so many that a handful of groups can't reasonably control the majority of supply. And it would take a lot, because the other sellers have the income to buy up undercut supply and fix their prices again.
Not to bring in real world politics, but a lot of governments have tried to justify the exploitation of natural resources by the same argument. That somehow more supply = more competition = lower prices.
I see your point, though I think that prices didn't fall because the eve population was expanding rapidly at the time of the new regions coming out matching the new supply to the new demand. There hasn't been any more new moons to mine since then though, and prices have continued to rise as supply stagnated and demand reached new heights. That's just my take though. And certainly the fact that a lot of the moons were controlled by only a few entities factored in. Hopefully in these 2500 new highend moons will be able to be owned by independents, which is more likely because of the uncontrollable nature of wormhole space. |
Hoshi
Eviction.
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:29:00 -
[814]
Where inside a system will Wormholes spawn? Will it be like current exploration sites and they will only spawn within 4 au of a planet or will it be more free form? |
Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:29:00 -
[815]
Why so many wormhole systems? Isn't that likely to limit the amount of conflict over these new resources? Is that the intention? If not, would you consider fewer system (at least 0.0 systems) with more entrances? |
Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:33:00 -
[816]
That remains to be seen, space friend. It all comes down to whether POS deployments are permanent or not, and nothing else.
If they're temporary, moons will change hands every couple months. If the same group of players can keep returning to the same system and pay the upkeep fees, large groups will consolidate the new moons in the distant future. And even if there are more large groups doing the holding compared to today, the player population will spike after Apocrypha and Ambulation to match it.
Any other form of high moon turnover can only be introduced by a change to put POS warfare into mainstream pvp and add dynamic elements to moon harvesting mechanics (ie. depletable, respawning moon resources).
I would like to see that as well, for the record. |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:35:00 -
[817]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 27/01/2009 18:35:58
Originally by: JiJiCle Or even worst, they could use the "hey can you help me with that hard mission ?" technique: - fleet up - warp to the "in need for help" guy who stands just next to the WH entrance - getting automaticly sucked through wormhole (if they do an auto-travel through and not on activation) - being bubbled & pwned by a nice "welcome in WH space!" comitee
hi sec exploration 4TW
Hm, I guess you just pointed out the reason why Wormholes should NOT automatically suck you in.
And before you get started: No, EVE does not become a better game when people are being griefed, without any means to protect themselves, while in the process of trying to be helpful. It might come as an surprise, but I hardly think CCP is interested in completely killing off what little positive social interaction strangers have in the game. Especially considering the efforts they have recently done to improve those aspects (by killing off the Lofty scam for example). |
Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:37:00 -
[818]
Originally by: Alexander Knott Why so many wormhole systems? Isn't that likely to limit the amount of conflict over these new resources? Is that the intention? If not, would you consider fewer system (at least 0.0 systems) with more entrances?
The number isn't what limits the conflict, its the distribution. They added more systems with the Drone Region expansion (3k+ iirc?), but much of that is utilitarian (used for connections and travel. A crappy system on a travel path close to a busy empire route isn't going to support fledgling corp operations.
With wormhole space the quality of a system simply comes down to the resources in it and not its strategic location.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:39:00 -
[819]
meeeh i had hoped for consumption of ammo (probes) for some extra strontium demand -.- - putting the gist back into logistics |
War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:53:00 -
[820]
Originally by: Cailais If it's easy for you to resupply a POS in W-Space, its just as easy for the opportunist pirate to 'interdict' that resupply. W-Systems act as a great 'long range roamer' for the pirate. I hop my fleet into one and use it to short cut to another system. I can hide my pirate fleet in one. I just dont think refueling that POS is going to be quite as trivial as some people think.
You're wrong. It's assymetrical. To refuel you only have to get one ship through. To interdict you have to prevent all ships from getting through.
You also seem to be making the assumption that there will be no guards or scouts on the refuel ship to deal with said interdiction. With that you're chance of random pirates is null.
If you're going to mess with a POS you shoot it you don't blockade it. Please see current SOP.
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Pilk
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:54:00 -
[821]
As the person who created this set of probe coverage bookmarks, will any concession be given to those of us who spent many hours producing carefully-honed bookmark sets allowing thorough coverage of a system? If not, meh, but I'd like to see some benefit come from all that hard work.
--P
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. Tyrrax's bet status: PAID! |
Rocius
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:10:00 -
[822]
Originally by: Pilk Edited by: Pilk on 27/01/2009 18:58:08
Also, a question I haven't seen answered--how do jump drives work in and around W-space systems? Are any W-space systems going to be in jump range of "regular" systems? Can one conceivably use a jump drive to move from one W-space system to another, were they to build a jump-capable ship in a W-space system or bring in a black ops or JF?
--P
Dev's have answered it a few times over atualy. There is just so many posts here its easy to overlook. The is NO cynoing or jumping inside of W space at all. Not from K space to W space. Not from W space to K space. Not from W space to W space. Any capitals brought in will be useless in terms of their jumping capabilities.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:12:00 -
[823]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
You can't warp to probes, and you can't scan for them either. Otherwise making insanely deep-space bookmarks would be very easy.
I hope the probes are still visible on the directional scanner.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: LegendaryFrog How do you plan on addressing what has already become somewhat of a balance issue with ammo usage. It would seem to me that these relatively closed off areas give even more of an advantage to the Amarr player who needs not worry about storing ammo (thus taking up precious cargo space to be able to actually gain something from this new space) and not being able to fire his guns.
The downside to Amarr ships is that they're particularly vulnerable to capacitor-draining modules on for example NPCs. I think this will end up balancing out.
If you make cap draining NPC common you unbalance heavily hybrid using ships.
They will have both disadvantages. Cap draining weapons influenced by NPC cap draining and limited quantity of ammunitions.
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Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:25:00 -
[824]
Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS.
It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for!
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
Zoiewu
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:31:00 -
[825]
Edited by: Zoiewu on 27/01/2009 19:31:53
Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS.
It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for!
I hope you missed the sarcasm tag.
Right so anyone interested in doing such needs an Alliance with large cap fleet for defence or good friends, Good job of increasing the barrier of entry and taking out smaller corps and the soloist from the fun huh
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:37:00 -
[826]
Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS.
It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for!
It would totally be interesting if this was the exact same thing we already had. Good plan.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Williamat Centaurus
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:47:00 -
[827]
Originally by: Hoshi Where inside a system will Wormholes spawn? Will it be like current exploration sites and they will only spawn within 4 au of a planet or will it be more free form?
/this
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Dal Deinvisu
Ventis Secundis
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:51:00 -
[828]
Edited by: Dal Deinvisu on 27/01/2009 19:53:25
Originally by: Rex Lashar Having a predictable route every time doesn't mean its going to be safer. Safety in logistics is also a moot topic, as you don't need to be running past 0.0 gatecamps with indies anymore.
First[SIC], you wouldn't be doing it with a hauler. Second, you would have dozens of wormholes in the span of a month to get the job done. Your whole randomness is a showstopper argument doesn't work, and the suggestion that its somehow more dangerous is subjective.
Danger is the only thing that keeps people away. Not many people are up for trips of over a hundred jumps, especially not if they get popped anywhere along the route and have to do again. And then again, next week/month. As well, other players can disrupt the operation simply by using up the wormhole. And that's a single POS in a single system. People simply are not that patient; as well, it provides great metagaming opportunities that eve is known for (wouldn't take much to "accidentally" be unable to fuel a w-space pos). Further, it's a similar trip back, resulting in a HUGE timesink and drain on any alliance's resources, any players and fuel used handling w-space logistics cannot be used for k-space POSes (which are much lower risk/reward, but necessary to hold space).
Originally by: Rex Considering I can get to any region on the map, or live in 0.0 for years at a time. Take away the randomness, and how would this be any different from the multitude of groups that run POS in 0.0?
The space is unconnected. The space is not reliable. You can't grab things from the edge of empire space and zip through when it's quiet. Other players will be between you and your shifting destination, and then again in and at it. You can not assemble a strong force even once you've located a safe exit. Reinforcements have to make the same trip as the logistics, in the tens-hundreds of jumps.
Originally by: Rex Your reasoning isn't reasoning, it's a consistent overestimation of the challenge this presents to anyone whose already a veteran of 0.0.
I've been in 0.0, npc and player sov; I've set up and fueled POSes, personal and corp; and I've seen how (in)active players can be. POSing in w-space will hardly be an I-WIN button - if anything it reduces PvP profitability CONSIDERABLY as it's a logistical and defensive nightmare, and gives your opponents a static (and weak, deathstars would be useless) target. Without POSes, the big alliances will not be gathered anywhere, and instead sending 100 HACs at a time to camp the systems they have the best access to. - I have no objection with giving them something to get hung up on and reduce their influence. Any lack of POSes would mean players will run out of carriers/Orcas and cloaks anywhere and everywhere; PvP has much less profit potential and PvE resources remain unchanged - and now you can't hit your opponent when they're not looking.
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Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:56:00 -
[829]
Here is one Q for you.
lets say you are in W-Space. and you found a WH to take you some where. Would your scanners be able to pic up radio signals?
Cuz the way i see it. I wanted to go home, I find a WH that would have a radio signal from scope corporation.
The way i am thinking is these WH are like the WHs in StarGate SG1
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:57:00 -
[830]
Originally by: War Fairy
Originally by: Cailais If it's easy for you to resupply a POS in W-Space, its just as easy for the opportunist pirate to 'interdict' that resupply. W-Systems act as a great 'long range roamer' for the pirate. I hop my fleet into one and use it to short cut to another system. I can hide my pirate fleet in one. I just dont think refueling that POS is going to be quite as trivial as some people think.
You're wrong. It's assymetrical. To refuel you only have to get one ship through. To interdict you have to prevent all ships from getting through.
You also seem to be making the assumption that there will be no guards or scouts on the refuel ship to deal with said interdiction. With that you're chance of random pirates is null.
If you're going to mess with a POS you shoot it you don't blockade it. Please see current SOP.
I think you totally missed the point. Pie's don't have to do jack to blockade a pos or attack it. What if for an entire month every wormhole into your POS system leads to deep 0.0 space owned and gate camped by your arch enemy. You can't jump fuel in. If you can't find a wormhole to a simi safe route you could just flat out run out of fuel. Its completely random. What if random means there is NO RESUPPLY ROUTE!!!
Now flip that around lets say someone does something REALLY super stupid... Don't say they won't cause I see it every day. Lets say the last character left in the system with 4 POS's is an alt of a guy that loses his job and suddenly quits the game... So you have no characters in that system and the only 2 wormholes you knew are both closed... gone... so you have 4 POS's fuel hangers billions of isk in moon poo ships etc... now go find it... Don't forget its not just about finding "A" wormhole to any wormspace system. You have find YOUR system with YOUR POS's. Even if you had 20 people do nothing but scan wormholes and jump into them blindly I bet you couldn't find it accept by shear luck.
Its a huge risk to setup shop (POS's) in any of these systems. Even if you figure out ways to manage the risk its a logistical nightmare. I predict much nashing of teeth a month or two after this patch is released. People *****ing that they lost there POS's bleh bleh bleh... |
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permion
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Posted - 2009.01.27 19:58:00 -
[831]
Edited by: permion on 27/01/2009 20:01:56 I personally can't wait to find all the abanandoned infrastructure from corps saying "it can't be that hard". Then completely losing access to their moon mining bases because of one mistake.
have such a large number of new systems actually makes it harder to lay down claims, especially in the case of making one mistake(or rather a chain of them).
__________
I personally see wormholes as a system where warfare favors the attacker and people who love logistics, and where it's nearly impossible to get any fleets the size of what anyone would call a blob.
IMO: what warfare should have been in the first place. |
Deltronious
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:00:00 -
[832]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS.
It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for!
It would totally be interesting if this was the exact same thing we already had. Good plan.
This. I mean seriously give, give us a break. 5000+ systems is not enough to fight over? |
Fumen
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:02:00 -
[833]
Originally by: Zex Maxwell Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 27/01/2009 19:56:32
The way i am thinking is these WH are like the WHs in StarGate SG1
The wormholes in Stargate SG-1 were an artificial system of highways created by the ancients and accessed via the gates, much like a stargate in EVE that could connect to any other stargate. The wormholes here are more like the ones from Star Trek in that they were a rare occurance that someone tripped over and were rarely stable for long, if at all. |
Pattern Clarc
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:04:00 -
[834]
Originally by: Zoiewu Edited by: Zoiewu on 27/01/2009 19:31:53
Originally by: Serenity Steele Nice. However No-Sov = Crap. It would be a hellava lot more interesting with Sov and jump bridges. Stop making all solar systems in EVE a Commodity FFS.
It's actually interesting to have something to fight over and for!
I hope you missed the sarcasm tag.
QFT |
Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:09:00 -
[835]
Originally by: Fumen
Originally by: Zex Maxwell Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 27/01/2009 19:56:32
The way i am thinking is these WH are like the WHs in StarGate SG1
The wormholes in Stargate SG-1 were an artificial system of highways created by the ancients and accessed via the gates, much like a stargate in EVE that could connect to any other stargate. The wormholes here are more like the ones from Star Trek in that they were a rare occurance that someone tripped over and were rarely stable for long, if at all.
Ah ty. that helps me understand now.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:25:00 -
[836]
Question? As we know I could go to wormspace from amarr space and end up leaving into gallente space.
How does that effect the type of tech 3 goodies that are available when I reach wormspacE?
As we know there are the 4 different types of goodies which build the 4 different types of tech 3 parts; from fanfest. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:26:00 -
[837]
Dal Deinvisu, I think you're just playing Devil's advocate now. Our discussion has veered off into the land of "how players will react", and I don't want to bother with subjective comparison games.
The simplest truth about anything in EVE is that if you allow it, it will be done. If you allow settlement of WH space, it will be done. How easy or how hard it happens to be only determines how long the challenge remains unbroken on a larger scale. Which is really like asking "how long will this frontier remain a frontier?".
Right now in EVE a player can - via game mechanics - put up sustainable infrastructure in every system. Don't you think that someone who wants to set up a permanent home in space already has plenty of options?
What happens to all the people who spent time and effort building up the furthest reaches of normal 0.0 space? Their claims are marginalized now because their homes (at least in the short and medium term) have less economic value, less entertainment value, and are easier to assault.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:44:00 -
[838]
Edited by: Ki Tarra on 27/01/2009 20:44:15
Originally by: War Fairy What does he mean by cluster?
I expect that he means Constellation.
Every System in W-Space would have 1 or more wormholes.
Every Constellation in K-Space would have 1 or more wormholes.
Everytime a wormhole expires, it would respawn within its assigned boundry: either the same system for W-Space or the same constellation for K-Space. When it respawns, it would get a new randomly assigned end point. There may be biases attached to the selection of end points.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:45:00 -
[839]
Originally by: Darkdood I think you totally missed the point. Pie's don't have to do jack to blockade a pos or attack it. What if for an entire month every wormhole into your POS system leads to deep 0.0 space owned and gate camped by your arch enemy.
A fictional example that can't happen. Any non-0.0 WH makes refueling trivial. remember if you don't like the wormhole you have you can get a new one at will.
Quote: Now flip that around lets say someone does something REALLY super stupid...
Meaningless arguement. You can't prevent stupidity. What happens if someone offlines their high sec POS? By your logic refueling high sec POSes is hard becuase someone might be stupid and jet the fuel.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2009.01.27 20:51:00 -
[840]
Originally by: War Fairy remember if you don't like the wormhole you have you can get a new one at will.
The more I think on it the more this seems like the root of the problem. The solution eludes me. Limiting trips by one person would require you to have many people to crash the WH. But that just stops the small groups.
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