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Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.23 14:03:00 -
[1]
Greetings all
I suppose I should start with the usual " I don't really think Falcons/ECM needs changing " and with that out of the way..
Among the usual complaints on ECM and ECM ships we have: Too long range/too powerfull No stacking penalities Being jammed sucks and is frustrating Can't fight back No skills can offset jamming effect (Not char skill anyway) The ships are dull to fly and have the hipoints of a flee, the speed of a slug and the sexual appeal of a wort hog. (well ok, that's mine. Very true though)
So what is the challenge? Find a way to keep ecm usefull so that RR gangs don't start running amok but also doesn't screw with the lone pilot (ECM pilot as well as target).
We've seen from time to time how morons have floated the idea of jammming reducing the number of targeting slots, fools we've said, all you need is one target to shoot. But what if it wasn't all that bloody stupid with a slot reduction mechanic?
(Disclaimer) All current ECM, ECCM modules values currently in eve are not valid for this mechanic. Forget about 14 points of jamming strength. Also all Values in the following are for displaying the mechanic and not a suggestion for future module values.
Ships in Eve has a set number of locking slots ranging from 3-10 which is modified by the characters Targeting and Multitasking skills but first things first. How would this new jammer work?
x = Used slot
o = unused slot
- = jammed slot
Imagine your ships targeting slots all empty, you start filling them up by locking a hostile and 2 friendlies for RR reps and a secondary for good measure. You've now filled 4 slots out of your imaginary 7 slots total.
X X X X O O O
Next you get hit by an ECM which under this system will NOT be chance based in it's function but only in it's effect. Lets use a jamming strength of 3.5. Basically the idea is; 1 point fills up one slot and decimal points uses the chance based mechanic of old, IE 0.5 strength = 50% chance to fill a slot. In this particular instance we get lucky and jam for full effect so 4 slots jammed.
However, which slots get jammed is random, making the effects of ECM unpredictable. In this instance we get this effect.
X - - X - - O
Ok, the jammer hit for full strength... but the target is still fighting back and RR repping one of his friends. Time to apply another jammer. Enter stacking penalty. 3.5 x 0.83 = 2.905. We get lucky again and get full effect of the jammer. Another 3 slots jammed leaving us this.
- - - - - - -
Ship neutralized. Now now, hold your horses, we're not done yet but lets discuss the above first. Basically what the target experiences is the effect of an ECM burst, lock gets broken but he can immediatly reaquire lock until he runs out of locking slots.
Continued.....
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Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.23 14:05:00 -
[2]
Jamming mechanic pt 2
In the above scenario we had an ECM ship with 3.5 strength jammer. What affects this value on the target side?
Enter sensor strength. Basically sensor strength will now work as a proper resistance with ECCM acting as a hardener. The final value of the Jammer will be depandant on this and is for CCP's balancing team to figure out.
However lets do the above scenario with a few modifications again but this time with resistances and "other" countermeasures.
Locking slots = 7 Sensorstrength = 20 ECCM = 15% Auto Targeting unit = +2 locking slots Close range ECM script = 4.5 (Range like todays multispec I imagine)
This gives us final values for the ECM 4.5 * (1 - 0.32) = 3.06
Beginning of fight, target uses up 4 slots but it now has a lot more spare thus reducing the ECM hit chance
X X X X O O O O O
After first ECM
X - X X - O O - O
Well crap, it did almost nothing. Need another jammer on it. With stacking penalty and resistances 3.06 x 0,83 = 2.53. Oh shoot, the diceroll sold us short this time. 2 slots jammed.
- - - X - O O - O
Well at least we got lucky with the slots, he stopped shooting one of our buddies but continued to rep his friend and he can continue to lock.
Ok, so what have we here
On the target side Being able to always "fight back" Check. (if you fit for it) Skills affecting jamming chance check
On the jammers side ECM will always work in optimal but the effect will be random. RR gangs will still have lots of problems due to ECM cycling and targeting different slots each cycle.
Ending notes.
With this mechanic ECM's could no longer work with racials, not without making the ECM ships completely vulnerable to a single attacker, therefore we abolish them and have a jamming module with a standard High strength mode and a long range script with weaker strength.
ECM's ability to "shut down" several small ships is removed, it can now severly disrupt several ECCM/autotargetting hardened ships or completely disrupt a single unhardened.
SDA's would have to go. ECM ships would need their low slots back to survive. Either remove them or make them cycle the jammers faster which would increase their jamming power at expense of incrased cap usage and tank/speed.
Module changes ECCM = around 15% is probably about right Autotargeting units. The T2 ones gives you 3 slots, way too much. Max 2. ECM modules (obviously) Balance issue for CCP together with ship bonuses and (god forbid) SDA's.
Merry christmas!
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.12.23 14:10:00 -
[3]
Interesting idea. Very interesting actually. I'll post something more substatial later when i get back home, because i see a few flaws. Only minor things though.
What would be interesting is, if we could expand this mechanic to other forms of ecm, too, like tracking disrupors. And, more importantly, how we deal with grouped turrets. ----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.12.23 15:50:00 -
[4]
Wow you definitly put some thought into this and it shows. Seems like a very good alternative to me Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Cade Morrigan
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.12.23 16:17:00 -
[5]
How does the jamming pilot know what kind of effect he is having on his target, or does he at all? Seems like it would be difficult to know if you should drop another ECM on a target or not.
If this sort of system were implemented the Falcon would need to be toughened IMO. If the Falcon(s) can't easily neutralize the biggest threat(s) to their own survival, they won't last in their current flimsy state. |
Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.23 18:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cade Morrigan How does the jamming pilot know what kind of effect he is having on his target, or does he at all? Seems like it would be difficult to know if you should drop another ECM on a target or not.
Yup he'd need to pay attention to see wether the target is repping or shooting. Not a bad thing IMO.
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Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.12.23 20:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Spartan dax
Originally by: Cade Morrigan How does the jamming pilot know what kind of effect he is having on his target, or does he at all? Seems like it would be difficult to know if you should drop another ECM on a target or not.
Yup he'd need to pay attention to see wether the target is repping or shooting. Not a bad thing IMO.
Yeah but you cant forget that a large majority of people play this game with no effects on. So the only time u really know if their shooting someone, is if that person is saying so on comms, or they shoot you.
There would have to be some sort of indicator inplace of the current jamming cycle timer that would give this information. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Allahs Warrior
Gallente Justified Hedonism And Dualism
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Posted - 2008.12.23 20:17:00 -
[8]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=955163
my thread has an interesting idea that might compliment this.
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Shadow's Caress
Dark Skullz Empire Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.12.23 21:54:00 -
[9]
/signed
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Kittamaru
Gallente Democracy of Klingon Brothers G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.12.23 22:35:00 -
[10]
I tried to come up with something like this a while back, but couldn't orate it nearly as well as you. Bravo!
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NE Weevil
The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency
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Posted - 2008.12.23 23:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Straight Chillen There would have to be some sort of indicator inplace of the current jamming cycle timer that would give this information.
They could put the indicator in a new control panel which also shows if you are scrambled or webbed. Nice idea!
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.26 12:33:00 -
[12]
The only question I have is why this couldn't work with Racial jammers?
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Emporors Champian
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Posted - 2008.12.26 13:11:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Emporors Champian on 26/12/2008 13:13:19 well personaly i like it but this would mean your ship would have as many targeting computers as there are targets.
but in real life ships have many back up computers for many sailors to cover AOE of ships jammers and monitors for many reasons like cover many flanks or if 1 sailor blinks or another sailor is hesantant or simply if 1 malfuntions the many back up should work.
so i believe this is easy to impement under the reason its realistic...
before i add my suggestions i wanna say what if you have wepon grouping and it shuts down 1 wepon? what happens if you have mid or low slots you wanna shut down? will this work on all high slots only or will this work on mids and lows as well? what if one of your high slots is a passive mod to increase your drone controole range and this slot is jammed?
but all i can say is you may want to modify this in such as if you fit a ship with ecm lets say 20 points of ecm strength and you hold 6 targets for example maybe when you activate the ecm modual your cursor should be blinky red till you distribute all 20 points to 1 or all targeted ships. lets say you get word the enemy paladin you have targeted is doing mad damage to your fleet you may wanna quickly tap the paladin target icon 15 times but hit enemy falcon 5 tims as well.
the symbole on the paladin would begin with ecm icon then next to it count up to 15.
i think this would allow for better funtion of this idea for if you have mutiple computers vaying signal strengths to the many ships would make sence.
but i love this idea and begg it hit test server asap! would like to see it with my twist as well
hey just need to figgure how racial jammers work tho they would not be nessesary anymore :) let me try to get them to work hmmmm???
its easy!!! racial jammers give penalty to outside thier race of 0.5 strength and racial jammers are 1.5% the strength of multi ecm.
so if you fit 10 points of multi ecm if you would have used racial jamers you get 15 points to primary race and only 5 points outside thier race.
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Emporors Champian
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Posted - 2008.12.26 15:13:00 -
[14]
i will save this post to bump it as often as i can
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Adaera
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Posted - 2008.12.26 17:27:00 -
[15]
Free bump for epic idea
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Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.26 18:15:00 -
[16]
Emperor I think you've replied to the wrong thread, you're not making any sense whatsoever.
As for racials. Having scripted AND racial jammers would be an overly harsh nerf on ECM ships IMO and also force them to stock up on as many jammers as possible like todays jamming ships.
With only multispecs and a short/long range script pilots will more likely choose from; less jammers with short range scripts and other utilities/tank or stocking up on long range scripted jammers and not much else. The latter being pretty much like todays fitting strategies and the first one a not very common or successfull fitting strategy in todays eve. More flavour for the ECM pilots in other words which is badly needed since they are dreadfully booring ships to fly.
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.27 12:11:00 -
[17]
Epic idea.
ECM needs range/strength scripts aswell.
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Iron Soldiers
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Posted - 2008.12.27 13:33:00 -
[18]
i modual only allows 2 script types for it give bonus to 1 or other effect.
i understood champ just fine as i understan everything on this idea and all these ideas ar sounding very nice
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.12.27 22:20:00 -
[19]
Interesting idea, very interesting.
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Davik Rendar
Open All Hours
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Posted - 2008.12.27 23:02:00 -
[20]
Really interesting idea, it could make a good change to the current ECM.
SDA's could possibly give a range bonus instead? That way you could swap tank for extra range, or extra range for tank?
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Onys Cissalc
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Posted - 2008.12.28 11:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Iron Soldiers i modual only allows 2 script types for it give bonus to 1 or other effect.
i understood champ just fine as i understan everything on this idea and all these ideas ar sounding very nice
Except that you are one of the many alts under the SpawnSupreme character group.
Anyway, I don't see why racial jammers would necessarily have to be removed.
As things stand at the moment, a racial jammer has, naturally, a much higher chance to jam a single target of its intended race. It can, altho it won't be as likely to succeed, jam the other races' ships too.
So, why not simply use your already mentioned mechanic of the points reflecting how many targeting slots are nerfed, and nerf more slots of a single racial ship than you would on other ships?
Let's say a multispec can only nerf 3-4 slots on any given ship, with a 100% chance that it will either be 3 or 4 slots.
Ok, so it's equally effective against all races' ships.
But what if we have a racial jammer against minmtar that can nerf 6-8 slots? It would only have an effectiveness of 1-3 slots against any other race's ships, but at least we know that a single jammer can possibly remove a single ship from the fight completely, the way we see them do now.
As for falcons being 'flimsy', a falcon with a LSE, photon hardener and a basilisk or scimitar to back it up is hardly flimsy. 8k+ shields with nice resists and a hefty tank hanging 60km behind its already 200km-from-the-fight position. Sounds perfectly viable to me.
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enjoi
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.12.28 14:40:00 -
[22]
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=958479
A different take on the situation.
Real men structure tank. |
Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.28 14:43:00 -
[23]
Regarding Racials, it's a bit off topic and doesn't really have any bearing on my ECM mechanic suggestion. However, here's my view on Racials as well as SDA's.
As I said earlier, one of the problems we have with ecm and ecm ships is the overuse of ECM modules.
This ofc stems from the fact that CCP, in its infinite wisdom, designed these ships to have no other utility than ECM whatsoever. And no, that's not because of their bonuses as one might think, it's because of the necessity to use up your lowslots as well as to "cover the races" with racial jammers in your mids since multispec in general don't cut it. Thus you get all out ECM, all the time, from (hopefully for the ECM pilot) as far away as possible. It does go hand in hand very nicely with the caldari meme of specialization and as such it's one of CCP's best shipdesign achievements. But is it good for the game?
Take the horribly misbonusedÖ Rook for instance, with its weapons bonuses useless. Useless because it can't function in weapons range due to no tank, speed or damage. Reason? Racials. Can't put the hurt on ships. Reason? SDA's. Etc Etc. You could triple the hitpoints and double the weapons bonus and the ship would still be useless. Racial jammers are a curse and do nothing but streamline all ECM ships into the same one dimensional fold. Jamming. Did you ever see a Curse or Rapier without a disruptor fitted? No, didn't think so.
With only multispecs and short/long range scripts and no SDA's it all of a sudden makes sense for a Rook to get into the thick of it, but with less jammers fitted, as well as for Falcons to hang back. (But under my system just an annoyance and a genuine pain for RR gangs and not as detrimental as today).
I think it would be a win for all pilots in Eve. Very powerfull close range ECM:ing but it would be suicidal to use the current fitting strategies of slapping on as many jamming modules as you can get away with.
This is my view of racials and SDA's effect on the game regardless of ECM mechanics. Boring, streamlined cookiecutter setups. But that's another thread entirely.
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Onys Cissalc
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: "Spartan dax" You could triple the hitpoints and double the weapons bonus and the ship would still be useless.
Station/gate/POS camping, you are at least able to deal about 200-250dps to things within about 85km of yourself.
That, coupled with a 80% averaged resists (gang linking) 9.5k buffer and 5x SDA'd up jammers and some logistics?
You said triple the hitpoints, right? That'd make it 28.3k-29.6k shield HP. Double the weapons bonus? We've got ourselves about 375dps now, I think?
That would make using the Scorpion practically pointless, as your signature radius is far smaller, your sensor strength is superior, you do an equal amount of dps (more if you're using the missiles against smaller targets) without requiring any cap for it, you have superior resists and a vastly superior buffer to work with.
Comparisons aside, the SDA modules are in place as a result of how ECM used to be.
It used to be that with a heavy NOS or two, you didn't need to worry about the cap usage on ECM modules, as those coupled with an injector for cap shortages meant you could run 3x ECM Multispecs just fine. These ECM Multispecs also had a strength of, iirc, about 3.6 for a Tech2, much like racials now have 3.6 for their specific type. Racials back then had 7.2, I think, so you could generally get by quite safely using one of the three types you'd have to be careful for - namely gallente, caldari and minmatar. Amarr wasn't an issue as you capped them out so quickly, they were as good as dead from the point where you gained lock.
Anyway, I like your opening idea. It would mean that any given individual jammer can only completely jam up so many individual ships at once, rather than being able to distribute one of seven jammers among seven targets while a mate of his deals with their scan resolution, ensuring that where a jam is missed, they don't regain lock on their targets anyway.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.12.28 18:55:00 -
[25]
I'm not quite 100% sure how sensor strength fits in here, but this looks like, at worst, a very creative and innovative way to handle ECM. I like it on several levels - it makes more sense to me as how electronic warfare should work, having intermediary effects instead of just all-or-nothing.
I like that it gives the target multiple ways to counter - training targeting skills, using ECCM, using auto-targeters.
I like that it doesn't remove the "look, you got in a 1v1 with an ECM ship, durrrr you're dead" factor.
I like that it still serves the purpose of disrupting enemy targeting.
I like that since it doesn't have a relock timer, it puts more emphasis on locking time, and therefore makes damps more useful.
I like that it opens the possibility for ECM ships to serve other roles, like the other recons.
The biggest problem with this that I see is - how is the ECM ship pilot going to know how effective their jammers are? Will they have to rely on visual observation of the enemy ship? Keep in mind that you can't use "look at" on a ship more than 100km away ;)
The other problem that I can see is that this could actually be MORE effective at jamming people than the current system. 4x strength 4.5 jammers would take out no fewer than 10 targeting slots without possibility of failure, unless I misunderstood the formula. That's pretty rough...
Overall, though, a very good idea, made more notable by the level of thought and creativity it shows. Kudos! __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Ineeda Bejay
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:00:00 -
[26]
this is 1 of my favorite ideas hehe.
even some of my other favorite ideas seem get mor recognition.
if only all these ideas were on 1 thread but im sure a wall o text make some disinterested people
so can we get a little better detailed critique for this and other post so people get a sence of pro or con a bunch of rabble rabble seems to leave room for an understaning of either way
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Aleyra Mel
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Posted - 2008.12.28 19:09:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Aleyra Mel on 28/12/2008 19:10:33 Very bad idea. Will render ECM useless, noone will use it. All you need to do is lock 1 target to play, and before that 1 dies u lock a second. With this mechanic the only way to jam a target is by blocking all his target slots. Which means dropping 3 or 5 or even all your jammers to one target. And even then you might not completely disable him. Cause if you dont completely disable him whats the point of jamming? The target only needs 1 free target slot to be effective. Why should i care if i can target 2 out of my maxed 20 targets? thats all i need to kill my enemy... Even if you lose a lock sometimes who cares? you gonna lock again after 3-4 seconds. And that is an extreme case.... In conclusion, very bad idea.
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Kil2
Club Bear
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Posted - 2008.12.30 05:45:00 -
[28]
you got my vote.
i think balancing actual application could take a bit but the overall concept is really great. different, thoughtful, actually sounds fun to fly and fly against possibly?!
i hope someone important checks this out and spends some time kicking it around.
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SpawnSupreme
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Posted - 2009.01.06 10:29:00 -
[29]
hmmmm
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USBv2
Red Mist Society Ravenloft Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.06 15:02:00 -
[30]
Try to think what can happen if remove jamming at all.
I can have an opinion as i v been playing since may 2006 and mostly in 0.0 wars.
Today`s average gang of 15-20ppl must have 1-3 falcons. And what`s happening if such gang meets equal opponent? Yeah, falcons are trying to jam damagers or the opponent`s falcons. But i think we can say there`s no side of a battle that has an advantage due to their jammers, so, if we remove jam at all ...?
And in addition, how many rly solo pilots do u know? One client - combat ship and if the second client available - second with jamming support. As for me, i dont have the second client`cause it reqires time and money and i still trying to fly solo but in last 3 fights i d been jammed ( one time to death ) - this forced me to post here.
+1 to author, jam should be changed this way or another.
sig _________________________________________ even if u loose ur ship u gain expirience |
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