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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
PeachesAndCream
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Posted - 2008.12.21 03:11:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ephemeron Ok that explains some things, but I'm still skeptical that there is no legal way for CCP to protect itself from lawsuit over a lost game item.
Legal system can't be that ridiculous. There is a point, that consumer willingly has to cross, that he assumes personal responsibility for his actions. You can't simply blame everyone but yourself for every bad thing that happens to you.
Are there any real lawyers here who'd be interested in examining this possibility?
What part of the legal system do you find ridiculous? Without it, companies, or just about anyone can scam you legally if they put it into an EULA first. It doesn't take a lawyer to understand that, and its part of the reason that EULAs are seldom found binding.
The point at which a customer assumes responsibility for his actions, is when he obtains the product or service in question and then does something stupid. This being a service, a customer becomes liable according to the terms of service (TOS). Without even getting the 30 days of game service, how can you pit responsibility on a customer? But with a product, it's anything that would void a warranty.
You keep thinking its a product just because its represented virtually ingame. And not just any product, but a virtual one that is obligated to follow game rules. It only has an ingame representation to facilitate the new transfer mechanics (market). That ingame trinket has literally zero gameplay value - it has no use in the game at all.
You're essentially arguing that it should become a part of gameplay. Even if you ignored the little problem of legality, it sounds like you want player actions to translate into real life consequences. At that point it stops being a game, and even the most pvp addicted hardc0re no-lifers would still agree that EVE is a game. And I find it amazing you're even arguing this now, considering that GTC shenanigans have been outlawed completely even though regular scams have a green light.
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Khemul Zula
Amarr Black Plague. Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 03:11:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Khemul Zula on 21/12/2008 03:12:15 There is a funny thing when it comes to the legal system in general. If you are a corporation, trying to make a profit, it is best not to test the "there is no way we'll be sued for that" theory. Even a completely baseless lawsuit can cost the company money, so most companies are very conservative when it comes to legal matters.
Seriously. Look at the small print on advertisements sometime. Some of the most rediculous stuff has a warning basically saying "don't try this at home" just in case someone manages to try it (even if it is physically impossible).
------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. |
Xipheas
Evolving Strategies
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Posted - 2008.12.21 03:12:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Xipheas on 21/12/2008 03:12:21
Originally by: Tortun Nahme I just passed a law that made it illegal to spit on tuesdays if the sun is shining
the punishment is very harsh, you will be stripped of all worldly possessions and be forced to listen to S-Club 7 for a week straight
dude ... my human rights ...
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Umbra Synergy
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Posted - 2008.12.21 03:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Xipheas Edited by: Xipheas on 21/12/2008 03:12:21
Originally by: Tortun Nahme I just passed a law that made it illegal to spit on tuesdays if the sun is shining
the punishment is very harsh, you will be stripped of all worldly possessions and be forced to listen to S-Club 7 for a week straight
dude ... my human rights ...
my inhumanity does not recognize your human rights
Fallout thinks im cute! I think so anyway |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.21 03:31:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Mika Meroko CCP have offices in the USA...and China...
both countries have cases of dispute against the EULA where the EULA lost...
That aside, PLEX have RL value.... all other items in game do not...
All EVE game items have real life value, which can be relatively accurately measured in US dollars. The EULA tries to assert there there is no real value, but as many point out, EULA isn't taken very seriously in real life.
The fact that isk sellers operate and illegally against EULA doesn't make them illegal against real law. And the fact that they do operate, proves without doubt that game items have real value
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.12.21 03:50:00 -
[36]
It is irrelevant whether or not items in EVE have a RL value. They are all owned by CCP.
A GTC however is owned by the player until cashed in. And there is the judicial difference.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.21 03:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Abrazzar It is irrelevant whether or not items in EVE have a RL value. They are all owned by CCP.
A GTC however is owned by the player until cashed in. And there is the judicial difference.
The player always gets his GTC. But once it is in the hands of the player, CCP's responsibility is over. Now whatever the player does with it is his own responsibility. If he loses it - tough luck
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Chomapuraku
Caldari Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.21 03:55:00 -
[38]
who cares? is it really that important to cart it around?
if you wanna risk your plex, you can open a trade window with a scammer, put the plex in it, and hold your mouse over the confirm button, if it means that much to you
or you can buy a gtc, sell it for isk, buy an officer mod with that isk, and cart it around in your cargohold.
or hell, just take a bundle of singles, hang it on a string at the end of a stick and dangle it out the window if you need to risk ****ing away good money so badly
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Lillian D'Florite
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Posted - 2008.12.21 04:04:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ephemeron All EVE game items have real life value, which can be relatively accurately measured in US dollars. The EULA tries to assert there there is no real value, but as many point out, EULA isn't taken very seriously in real life.
The fact that isk sellers operate and illegally against EULA doesn't make them illegal against real law. And the fact that they do operate, proves without doubt that game items have real value
You just stated the reason why CCP does not want to deal with the funbag that is PLEX. Since people (lawyers/jurdges) can easily argue that it has RL value (which compared to other items, it does).
with in game items, CCP can argue that the players do not own it blah blah.... For plex.... even Phoenix Wright cant fight it...
If CCP allows something so obvious *purchased with real money* to be ... yeah.. it can open the door way to lawsuits...
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.12.21 04:07:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Abrazzar It is irrelevant whether or not items in EVE have a RL value. They are all owned by CCP.
A GTC however is owned by the player until cashed in. And there is the judicial difference.
The player always gets his GTC. But once it is in the hands of the player, CCP's responsibility is over. Now whatever the player does with it is his own responsibility. If he loses it - tough luck
... in your world it might work like that... is your opinion....
but yeah, we live in a world where Chainsaws have warning labels to warn people not to stop moving blades with a body part.
.... I am sorry to say, that "touch luck" attitude might work well in 3rd world countries...
but it just wont stand in the nuthouse that is our court of law...
P.S: In Canada, if a burglar comes to your house, you are NOT allowed to hurt him. if you beat him up for robbing your house, he could SUE you AND win...
thats how ridiculous court systems are...
Dont blame CCP...
Blame the sorry excuse of a court system we have in the Western World.
Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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m3talc0re X
Caldari Heavens Gate Consortium
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Posted - 2008.12.21 04:17:00 -
[41]
Normally I ignore stupid threads like this... But honestly, who the hell whines about something like this?
Basically, this is what I get out of the OP's post...
Instead of ganking enough people to earn the isk to buy a GTC or PLEX, he would rather have it the easy (carebear?) way of just having to pop one "easy" ship and get his gametime that way. I don't think I'm far off base with this.
Secondly, CCP added the PLEX's in game to make it an easier flow to get game time cards in game, without having to leave the game to get 'em. They're "special" items to say the least. They even went as far as to mention that having them in game didn't really go well with the RP perspective of things, but they were added anyway.
I don't mean to flame, but damn, lol. -------------------------- Wait, what now? Yes, I was Anubis Assassin, this will be my new main XD |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.21 04:27:00 -
[42]
yes, I want to pop carebear and get PLEX code. What's wrong with that, seriously?
CCP should allow that to happen, game is a sand box. If some carebear wants me to have it, it's his choice, CCP should not make that choice for him
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Aeo IV
Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation
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Posted - 2008.12.21 04:33:00 -
[43]
Yes, I agree.
And when you pop my ship and steal my money? I'm going to have real cops come and arrest you, for stealing.
The minute you steal something worth real money, you're committing a real crime, and CCP doesn't want to deal with the issues that will arise from such crimes.
So give it a rest.
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Spenz
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.12.21 04:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Aeo IV Yes, I agree.
And when you pop my ship and steal my money? I'm going to have real cops come and arrest you, for stealing.
The minute you steal something worth real money, you're committing a real crime, and CCP doesn't want to deal with the issues that will arise from such crimes.
So give it a rest.
/thread. A PLEX isn't intellectual property like in-game items are. Like someone said before, it is a real-life service. This is where the realm of fantasy (ooh I get to robz ppl of real moneyz) ends and the cold harsh truths of reality begin (you just stole real money from me, prepare to go to jail).
I only had to read the first few lines of the OP and I already knew it would never happen due to legal issues. Like someone said before, if you want to risk real money risk your own using GTC isk to buy officer mods. THAT is actually legal.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.21 05:10:00 -
[45]
Alright, so explain to me why is it perfectly legal for scammers in Jita to spam WTB contracts with 4 mil isk prices. When somebody thru simple stupidity accepts that contract, PLEX code is transferred and the original owner loses his real money.
So far nobody complained about that.
Isn't it same thing as transporting PLEX code, then by simple stupidity, losing the ship to another player who takes your PLEX code?
In both cases, owner loses PLEX code, somebody else gets it.
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Mire Stoude
Cash Money Brothers
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Posted - 2008.12.21 05:25:00 -
[46]
I'm no lawyer, but I'm guessing that it has to do with ships getting blown up. If one gets destroyed or lost, the fact that the game card officially represents $14.95 USD and was issued by CCP may mean they would be responsible for replacing the lost time card.
Like if you lost a gift certificate from a major credit card company, you could get a replacement (after a typical amount of red tape). They would void out the old one and mail you another with the current balance on it.
And I don't think it applies to scamming or market manipulation because the owner gave it away of their own free will (although, manipulated or tricked, it was still their free will).
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Chomapuraku
Caldari Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.21 05:26:00 -
[47]
your thread bores me
AND NOW IS THE TIME ON SPROCKETS WHEN WE DANCE!! /emote cue goofy german techno
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.21 05:41:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ephemeron CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them.
Why?
To me this is just one more little factoid that shows how CCP is afraid to be hardcore, they want to make the game more soft and cudly just like WoW. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting people risk transporting that stuff, and it would make piracy more worthwhile.
All the hardcore game features were put in place by the original devs, 2003-2005, all the new features seem to either nerf the old hardcore elements or just standard mainstream stuff.
This by itself isn't that important, but it is an example of a whole pattern of game changes. It frustrates me.
Thanks for reading. Your time will not be reimbursed.
One big reason: you can't do direct trades with characters with a negative bank balance. If you could, you could trade PLEXes to characters with negative balances and pay for their accounts with ISK from other accounts. Not being able to do direct trades hinders this, and if you were able to undock with PLEXes, you'd be able to eject them in space and then apply them to the accounts that are in the negative.
Fortunately CCP has left a giant loophole to get around this small point, but that's another thread entirely.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Khemul Zula
Amarr Black Plague. Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 05:46:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ephemeron Alright, so explain to me why is it perfectly legal for scammers in Jita to spam WTB contracts with 4 mil isk prices. When somebody thru simple stupidity accepts that contract, PLEX code is transferred and the original owner loses his real money.
So far nobody complained about that.
Isn't it same thing as transporting PLEX code, then by simple stupidity, losing the ship to another player who takes your PLEX code?
In both cases, owner loses PLEX code, somebody else gets it.
There were a few complaints. Even a few threads where people made sure to confirm it was okay. In essence the person here is simply selling very very low. It isn't really a scam. Happens every day on regular market orders.
------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. |
Mika Meroko
Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.12.21 05:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Khemul Zula
There were a few complaints. Even a few threads where people made sure to confirm it was okay. In essence the person here is simply selling very very low. It isn't really a scam. Happens every day on regular market orders.
pretty much this.
-when you gank/shoot whatever. you are MAKING them lose it...
-contract scam.... they have to do it all by themselves.
IE: you gave a girl scout 100 dollars for her cookies since shes soooo cute and manipulated you into giving her the money...
vs
Said girl scout came at knife point, tied you up to the bed, walk away with your 100 dollar bill and ate the cookies herself.
Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Khemul Zula
Amarr Black Plague. Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 05:53:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Mika Meroko Said girl scout came at knife point, tied you up to the bed, walk away with your 100 dollar bill and ate the cookies herself.
Why was the girl scout in your bedroom?
------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.21 06:13:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Khemul Zula
Originally by: Mika Meroko Said girl scout came at knife point, tied you up to the bed, walk away with your 100 dollar bill and ate the cookies herself.
Why was the girl scout in your bedroom?
I think there's more to that story he's not telling
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.12.21 08:09:00 -
[53]
If the PLEX got destroyed, it would mean actual game time that someone paid for was removed from the game, and CCP would make more money off someone having to re-buy it again. I can see this wouldn't look good from a PR or legal point of view.
Also, once they leave the stations I think it's going to be much much harder to audit who they go to. Trade / Contracts / Market all provide a clear audit trail so that you can see who is giving what RL equivalent money to others (as does 'give money'). While losing something in PvP and having someone else scoop it could provide a less clear audit trail and make it harder for them to issue mass bannings when things like the POS exploit happen.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 09:42:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ephemeron CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them.
Why?
To me this is just one more little factoid that shows how CCP is afraid to be hardcore, they want to make the game more soft and cudly just like WoW. There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting people risk transporting that stuff, and it would make piracy more worthwhile.
All the hardcore game features were put in place by the original devs, 2003-2005, all the new features seem to either nerf the old hardcore elements or just standard mainstream stuff.
This by itself isn't that important, but it is an example of a whole pattern of game changes. It frustrates me.
Thanks for reading. Your time will not be reimbursed.
On the other hand, you can still scam them.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.12.21 09:53:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Khemul Zula
Originally by: Mika Meroko Said girl scout came at knife point, tied you up to the bed, walk away with your 100 dollar bill and ate the cookies herself.
Why was the girl scout in your bedroom?
I think there's more to that story he's not telling
Confirming this thread is now about girl scouts and cookies.
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Kate Nexus
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:19:00 -
[56]
How can you fit complexes in stations? They are in deadspace still aren't they.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:27:00 -
[57]
I love you, Kate Nexus. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.12.21 10:52:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ephemeron CCP made new feature that lets people convert GTC into game item that can be traded on station markets. But for some odd reason, they went the extra step to make sure that people didn't undock with them. Why?
Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Bimjo
Caldari Domination. Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2008.12.21 11:03:00 -
[59]
good god, you are a bunch of moaners, and allowing PLEXes to be moved will just give more ammo to players to moan to CCP about being scammed or losing your PLEX. ====================
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.12.21 11:23:00 -
[60]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Because you don't need them in-space for any purpose and they can be applied remotely via the assets list.
You don't need exotic dancers in-space for any purpose either. You can look at them via the assets list.
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