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Shadowfoot
Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.11.22 01:36:00 -
[1]
Hi I am currently Caldari but am wanting to switch to Minmatar. I am wondering if someone can give me a good BS fit for fleet pvp. I have good missile skills and training gunnery up. I don't know which BS is the best? I was told that the Tempest was the best, but whats wrong with the Phoon? If someone could help me it would be apperciated! <a href="http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/toys/testgen/6199/"><img src="http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/9/9/6199/25767.jpg" title="Griefer" alt="Griefer" border="0" /></a><br />Griefer<br /><a href= |
Dracthera
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Posted - 2008.11.22 01:49:00 -
[2]
Nothing's wrong with the 'phoon, but as a Caldari you likely have a fair amount of cross-training ahead of you to fly one well. Caldari generally do shield tanking and missiles, and you're getting into a ship that uses armor tanking and guns, which is just about the opposite of your starting point. If you can get over that, you'll be OK.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2008.11.22 03:44:00 -
[3]
The Typhoon's only downfall is it requires tons of skill points to make it shine. You could use a Raven/Domi and be effective without training all those skills.
The Mael is a very good boat, it has a pretty killer tank due to its shield boosting bonus. It is also the Minmatar's best battleship choice for sniping as well.
The Tempest.. well. You'll either love it or you hate it. It can under perform when compared to other BSes, but it does have its fans
*** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.22 09:23:00 -
[4]
Minmatar are the worst BBs to train for fleet - I would highly recommend you train Amarr or stick with the Rokh which is a very good fleet sniper. As an longtime Tempest pilot, while at closer fleet engadgments (100 ish) the Tempy is great - at 170 its dps/alpha are both pathetic (due to falloff - quality of hit math). It also suffers from a very small number of rounds (11 Tremor) and reloading does terribly in lag. Overall, especially with wepon grouping, instant crystal changing, massive alpha and spectacular dps from Apocs as well as the RR Geddon and the lowsec camper Abaddon means if you are looking for a BB race - Amarr is really where its at and is set to last.
The fact that the Revelation and Archon are fantastic capitals while the Nag and Niddy are both pretty terrible mans everything above CS is pretty much Amarr Amarr Amarr. . .
So unless its aesthetic or role-playing related, I would pic the correct choise. And yes, you may thank me later. ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
NightmareX
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.22 10:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Minmatar are the worst BBs to train for fleet - I would highly recommend you train Amarr or stick with the Rokh which is a very good fleet sniper. As an longtime Tempest pilot, while at closer fleet engadgments (100 ish) the Tempy is great - at 170 its dps/alpha are both pathetic (due to falloff - quality of hit math). It also suffers from a very small number of rounds (11 Tremor) and reloading does terribly in lag. Overall, especially with wepon grouping, instant crystal changing, massive alpha and spectacular dps from Apocs as well as the RR Geddon and the lowsec camper Abaddon means if you are looking for a BB race - Amarr is really where its at and is set to last.
The fact that the Revelation and Archon are fantastic capitals while the Nag and Niddy are both pretty terrible mans everything above CS is pretty much Amarr Amarr Amarr. . .
So unless its aesthetic or role-playing related, I would pic the correct choise. And yes, you may thank me later.
Uhm, well i'm also a long time user of a Tempest. Is 3 years enough to say that the Sniper Tempest is good up to 150 km?.
The last fights i have been in i have pretty much been on the first place on alot of killmails because of the alpha strike.
And yes, the close range AC Tempest is also nice. You just have to fit it right and be smart.
And the thing that the Amarr is the best race to train now is just bull**** tbh. Train what race you like best. Every races have their advantages over other races.
Train Amarr if you want to be the FOTM king, aka easy mode. Train Caldari if you like medium mode or train Minmatar or Gallente of you want to play EVE in hard mode. And hard mode is where the fun is.
Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike' |
slothe
Caldari Murky Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.22 10:15:00 -
[6]
i spent around a year speccing up for the phoon, then by the time i did i never used the damn thing.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.22 12:40:00 -
[7]
Originally by: NightmareX
Train Amarr if you want to be the FOTM king, aka easy mode. Train Caldari if you like medium mode or train Minmatar or Gallente of you want to play EVE in hard mode. And hard mode is where the fun is.
FOTM does not make it easy mode. You should always train for what is really useful. In fleet fights a tach apoc has more optimal, for EHP, more DPS and a much faster locktime. I know you are a huge fan of the tempest - the fact is, Artillery are broken - the high alpha leads to overdamage on targets - and the low clip and working in falloff is detrimental to the overall alpha and damage. The whole 'easy mode/hardmode' thing is skewed. Amarr were hardmode untill a few months ago while minmatar (spacifically the vega) were seen as easy-mode. The origional distinction comes from missles being degustingly overpowered and easy to use (torps 4 years ago) rather then hard-mode is winning in sub-par ships.
Just because you are skilled enough, or have the proper fleet groupings to make the Tempest work does not take from the fact that you are weaker in a tempest then in an apoc or rokh.
I pray you are not going to start telling people that minmatar capitals are great too. . .because thats where things go into the twilight zone and I'd say you need to join UK or some RP thing. . .
To advise a newer fleet pilot to train the weakest fleet ship in terms of damage, DD survivability and range is a terrible mistake. ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
NightmareX
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:09:00 -
[8]
Edited by: NightmareX on 22/11/2008 13:11:15
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Just because you are skilled enough, or have the proper fleet groupings to make the Tempest work does not take from the fact that you are weaker in a tempest then in an apoc or rokh.
To advise a newer fleet pilot to train the weakest fleet ship in terms of damage, DD survivability and range is a terrible mistake.
I don't care what's weaker or what doesn't do that and that. I use the ship that is fun to use. As long the ship does the job i want it to do good, then i'm happy. I'm not going after the ship who have most HP, most damage etc. It's a stupid idea to just go after that, believe me on that.
But you say a tempest or a Typhoon is a bad choice when it's about tanking a DD?. Then why the hell does my Sniper Tempest survive an Amarr Titan DD then?. Yes i'm talking about a SNIPER TEMPEST that can survive a dd from an Amarr titan.
And no, the Sniper Tempest can do LOTS of damage. It all depends on what your shooting.
And the setup i use is just a normal fleet fight setup.
The Tempest is much better than the peoples says it are.
Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike' |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.22 13:48:00 -
[9]
Well, yah, you have fun in your fleet tempest - and thats good for you. And if Apocs are doing less dps, are not targeting quicker and have more range - then you should be teassing your apoc pilots - because either you are in a good sized fleet where your alpha is not wasted - or - your apoc pilots are fitting undersized guns or something.
Look, I trained minmatar for the tempest. . .and there is a reason you see wr3ck fly them less and less in fleet - because they are sub par. You are clearly still viable in a sub-par ship - good for you. But for a younger player - recommending the weakest ship because you think its the most fun to fly (comeon its bb fleet fights. . .those are not fun 99% of the time.) And that is why I advise training the best ship for the job and a capital race that is very very strong.
I cannot see how you have failed to make this separation between solid advise based on a comprehensive analysis of the 4 fleet ships and a very subjective experience of the ship. Have you been in an apoc recently in a fleet fight? Its quite scarry how good it is. ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
NightmareX
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.22 14:58:00 -
[10]
Edited by: NightmareX on 22/11/2008 15:15:28 Then why are there so few Apocs in our fleets then?. Is it because Apoc are so awesome or are it because Tempest are still nice?.
There are most Megathrons, then Tempest's and then Apocs and Geddons and some Ravens. Not even the Apoc and geddons in total have more ships than we have Tempest's.
Not so very long time ago, like 1 or 2 weeks before the Quantum Rise expansion, 1/3 of out fleet with BS'es was with Tempest's.
That also says me that Tempest's is not so bad at all.
EDIT: http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=865392. That's just one example.
Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike' |
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.11.22 22:40:00 -
[11]
Every tempest pilot I know in Wr3ck is either training for an Apoc, or is in support at this point. And we are talking about pilots just as qualified and expereinced as you are with the ship. A single fight in an Apoc is usually enough to convince people.
I will not go into details - but I would be glad to talk about the reasons if you want. Come onto GODs TS. ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
NightmareX
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.22 23:27:00 -
[12]
Edited by: NightmareX on 22/11/2008 23:34:29
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Every tempest pilot I know in Wr3ck is either training for an Apoc, or is in support at this point. And we are talking about pilots just as qualified and expereinced as you are with the ship. A single fight in an Apoc is usually enough to convince people.
I will not go into details - but I would be glad to talk about the reasons if you want. Come onto GODs TS.
Hehe.
Well the Apoc haven't even been near to convince me so far, and i believe it wont do that ever either.
I don't have an exact number on how many months it's since Amarr got boosted, but it doesn't take that long time to train to an Apoc and Lasers, so by now LOTS of players should have been using Apocs, but the fact is that it doesn't happen as i can see it. I simply don't see more Apocs now than i did before Amarr got boosted.
Peoples still use the ship they like best anyways.
And like me, i don't like a ship only because it does some more DPS, range and have better EHP. I'll use the ship that looks cool and the ship that does the job very good at what kind of range and what kind of fleet fights we are in.
And for that, and for the tactics and the way we fight in Tri, a Tempest is really nice.
Ofc, in some situations an Apoc will ofc be much much better in a Sniper BS fleet. But it's the same for the Tempest to. It all depends.
Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike' |
Happster
Polaris Project
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Posted - 2008.11.23 11:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 22/11/2008 23:38:37
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Every tempest pilot I know in Wr3ck is either training for an Apoc, or is in support at this point. And we are talking about pilots just as qualified and expereinced as you are with the ship. A single fight in an Apoc is usually enough to convince people.
I will not go into details - but I would be glad to talk about the reasons if you want. Come onto GODs TS.
Hehe.
Well the Apoc haven't even been near to convince me so far, and i believe it wont do that ever either.
I don't have an exact number on how many months it's since Amarr got boosted, but it doesn't take that long time to train to an Apoc and Lasers, so by now LOTS of players should have been using Apocs, but the fact is that it doesn't happen as i can see it. I simply don't see that much more Apocs now than i did before Amarr got boosted. Ok, some more i can see ofc, but that's not many.
Peoples still use the ship they like best anyways.
And like me, i don't like a ship only because it does some more DPS, have more range and have better EHP. I'll use the ship that looks cool and the ship that does the job very good at what kind of range and what kind of fleet fights we are in.
And for that, and for the tactics and the way we fight in Tri, a Tempest is really nice for me.
Ofc, in some situations an Apoc will ofc be much much better in a Sniper BS fleet. But it's the same for the Tempest to. It all depends.
Maybe you should try to have a look at others KB and not only your own. Since Amarr got the bost, i have sene less and less minnie snipers in sniper fleets. The battles ive seen lately has a majority of amarr snipers and only a few minnie snipers.
Before the amarr boost it were like 80% minmatar/gallente snipers. And only a few from other races. This has ben flipped upside down now.....
As the Goodfellas says. Most minnies that used to be in sniperpest before, are now in support ships. Me included.
Maybe you are happy about your pest. That is fine with me. But i have to react when you try to convince others that sniper pest is just fine and has no issues.
New sniper pilots should train for amarr snipers. As those are the best these days. Range owns alpha....its as simple as that.
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NightmareX
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.23 13:46:00 -
[14]
Happster. I'm not only looking at our own killboard when i'm looking on how many Tempest's there are being used today.
And those who says they are going from Minmatar to Amarr because Amarr are better snipers must be low skilled Minmatar players who just gives up on Minmatar. And then just goes over to Amarr because it's more easy mode there.
Yes, for low skilled players, there can be an idea to train something else than Minmatar i agree. BUT..., if your training Minmatar to the same point where i'am with Minmatar now, you will understand what i'm talking about here.
And the thing with the EHP and range is not something i care about, simply because if your getting primaried in a Sniper BS, your going to die anyways. And today most Sniper fleets are usually from 150 to 180 km from what we are shooting, and for that range the Tempest is perfect, and does also have very nice damage from that range.
But i agree, if your going to shoot something that are from 180 km up to 220-230 km, then i can agree that Amarr or Gallente can be a better choice. But how often do we snipe from around 200 km today?. I have never been in any fleet fights where we have been more than 180 km away anyways.
So like i say, it all depends on what kind of fighting you are doing. And no, i don't care about the EFT numbers or other numbers, i care about how the ship is when you use it, and can really see how the ship is. Instead of looking at the Tempest's stats and then goes omg what a garbage.
Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike' |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.11.23 14:40:00 -
[15]
I am a Caldari specialist, who's recently crosstrained Minmatar.
But it wasn't for the battleships lineup. The Typhoon is more like a heavy battlecruiser anyway :). I trained Minmatar because the cruiser/BC selection is excellent. (Yes, even after the 'nano nerf')
Anyway, the reason the Typhoon is considered 'not great' for fleet, is that usually fleets rely on instant damage at range. The Typhoon gets a large proportion of it's firepower from launchers and drones, which are undesirable. Ravens have much the same problem. Rokh, Tempest and Maelstrom are good at doing this though, in slightly different ways each. -- 249km locking? |
StoreSlem
Minmatar 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.23 14:46:00 -
[16]
Originally by: NightmareX
#1 And those who says they are going from Minmatar to Amarr because Amarr are better snipers must be low skilled Minmatar players who just gives up on Minmatar.
#2 BUT..., if your training Minmatar to the same point where i'am with Minmatar now, you will understand what i'm talking about here.
#3 And the thing with the EHP and range is something i don't care about, simply because if your getting primaried in a Sniper BS, your going to die anyways whatever EHP or resists you have.
#4 And today most Sniper fleets are usually from 150 to 180 km from what we are shooting,
#5 and for that range the Tempest is perfect, and does also have very nice damage from that range.
#6 And no, i don't care about the EFT numbers or other numbers
#1 no
#2 no
#3 no
#4 Which is probably a direct result of your awful fleet composition and FC's taking that into consideration when making warpins.
#5 Tempests deal good damage up to 150km, at 180km you are already fail.
#6 Who would have guessed. 'Ere be dragons and all.
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whoyoulookingat
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.24 14:58:00 -
[17]
Edited by: whoyoulookingat on 24/11/2008 14:58:42 Pure minny pilot here and have been for many a year. IMO, their BS can be catagorized as:
1. Typhoon - Up close & personal, Split weapon system & many fits which makes it a hard ship to counter. Massive DPS when fully trained (takes about 2yrs+ to train mind!)
2. Tempest - Reasonable up close, fine at sniping up to 160km, laughable at longer distances. Lots of fits available but weak sensor strength (meaning you're jammed quite easily). Good RR boat due to capless weapons. (can take up to 2yrs to skill properly for it if you enjoy variety)
3. Maelstrom - Good tank, able to fit 8 guns. Not the best PvP ship (unless your mad and like to shield tank!!) Although tier 3, it's by far the easiest to train out of the 3 ships. Mainly used as a PVE boat. Others can probably point out more plus's for it but i never enjoyed flying it
And that's the basics of our 3 ships. It's been stated before that only go for minny if you're not interested in FOTM's. They are by far the hardest BS to pilot properly but also the most fun when you get it right.
All of them have their "standard" fits which you can easily find on these forums yet the ones that make them really shine ? We don't tell.. you'll have to work that out for yourself
**edited for spelling mistakes, etc ** _____________________________________
Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
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