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Ai Shun
590
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:54:00 -
[91] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.
So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week? |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 00:55:00 -
[92] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:In your exact scenario of Plex seller vs underdog, if the underdog still pulls ahead with say ship losses, how does it it become a win for the Plex seller still?
Lets say the Plex seller dec's the underdog. In the one week the plex seller sucks it up and loses 3 BC's and 2 battleships, one of which is a faction ship that was packing officer mods. And the Underdog loses 2 BC's and a frigate. The plex buyer loses 1.2 bil in funds with the underdog losing maybe 450 mil, leaving us with a 750,000,000.00 difference.
Would this still be in the realm of pay to win or a waste of money?
Personally the only thing that I can see that would be different would happen afterward. The Plex seller can replace many of his losses pretty quick while the underdog may or may not be able to depending on how much he had saved up until that point.
About the only way I can see this truly becoming an advantage through the 2 parties would be through a war of attrition, waging for weeks on out, but even then the underdog has many advantages of his own to prevent such an action taking place such as dec shielding, corp dropping, or simply docking up and outlasting the wardeccer's patience.
Just because they didn't use their advantage proprerly doesn't mean they didn't purchase an in game advantage with real $$.
The fact that the underdog would even need to employ a strategy to avoid the war rather than having a fair chance only proves the purchased advantage.
The attrition situation would be true in an instance where both parties were already loaded out with optimal ships/gear, ect... The PLEX buyers would still have an advantage in this case. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.04.05 00:58:00 -
[93] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things. So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week?
There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$.
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Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
193
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:00:00 -
[94] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote:In your exact scenario of Plex seller vs underdog, if the underdog still pulls ahead with say ship losses, how does it it become a win for the Plex seller still?
Lets say the Plex seller dec's the underdog. In the one week the plex seller sucks it up and loses 3 BC's and 2 battleships, one of which is a faction ship that was packing officer mods. And the Underdog loses 2 BC's and a frigate. The plex buyer loses 1.2 bil in funds with the underdog losing maybe 450 mil, leaving us with a 750,000,000.00 difference.
Would this still be in the realm of pay to win or a waste of money?
Personally the only thing that I can see that would be different would happen afterward. The Plex seller can replace many of his losses pretty quick while the underdog may or may not be able to depending on how much he had saved up until that point.
About the only way I can see this truly becoming an advantage through the 2 parties would be through a war of attrition, waging for weeks on out, but even then the underdog has many advantages of his own to prevent such an action taking place such as dec shielding, corp dropping, or simply docking up and outlasting the wardeccer's patience. Just because they didn't use their advantage proprerly doesn't mean they didn't purchase an in game advantage with real $$. The fact that the underdog would even need to employ a strategy to avoid the war rather than having a fair chance only proves the purchased advantage. The attrition situation would be true in an instance where both parties were already loaded out with optimal ships/gear, ect... The PLEX buyers would still have an advantage in this case.
But is it still an advantage when they lose so much? I mean it sounds an awful lot like a loss to me. At least I wouldn't be walking out of that thinking I won the week. Both parties are still able to purchase the same ship types, same mods, and same ammo. On that level both parties are still equal, the only difference is that one worked for his ships and one had somebody (possibly the underdog himself) do some work for him. |
Ai Shun
592
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:07:00 -
[95] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things. So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week? There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$.
Two pilots start at the same time. Both have identical training plans. They can both use the equipment at the same time. One buys a PLEX and uses it to fund his next month. The other buys a PLEX and uses it to generate ISK.
Who won?
Nobody.
Pilot A plays 6 hours a day. Pilot B plays 6 hours a week. Who has won?
Sorry mate, but your story just doesn't hold water for me.
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Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
641
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:11:00 -
[96] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Ai Shun wrote:Nub Sauce wrote:Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things. So what is your proposal for ensuring everyone in EVE only plays the same amount of hours per week? There's no need, players having an advantage because they have played longer in any sort of RPG style game has never been the issue; in fact, it's generally expected. (play to win) The problem is when paying $$ on top of your subscription results in gaining an advantage such as gaining power/money/items faster than any who aren't paying extra $$. Two pilots start at the same time. Both have identical training plans. They can both use the equipment at the same time. One buys a PLEX and uses it to fund his next month. The other buys a PLEX and uses it to generate ISK. Who won? Nobody. Pilot A plays 6 hours a day. Pilot B plays 6 hours a week. Who has won? Sorry mate, but your story just doesn't hold water for me. The only difference would be that the PLEX for isk dude could get into, and likely lose, more expensive stuff faster. So its not pay to win, but pay to lose. |
Ai Shun
592
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:15:00 -
[97] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:The only difference would be that the PLEX for isk dude could get into, and likely lose, more expensive stuff faster. So its not pay to win, but pay to lose.
Assuming that PLEX for playtime did not make the capital to purchase the modules. But yeah, agreed in principle. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
193
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:23:00 -
[98] - Quote
Scenario #2
We remove the plex seller with a person who purchases 2 extra accounts. Those 2 accounts are only there to make isk hand over fist. All isk generated goes directly to his main account to purchase ships and mods.
Underdog remains the underdog.
All of the above in the first scenario still plays out the same and the new opponent can still purchase parts just as fast as the plex seller.
Scenario #3
Pit the Plex seller with the guy with 2 accounts. Both can purchase the same tools. Both can recover at the same rate.
Is the Plex seller still at the advantage? Furthermore, is the 3 account person now playing a play to win game like WOT? |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
36
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:25:00 -
[99] - Quote
A 5mill SP pilot in a mach is just a free killboard padding. |
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:27:00 -
[100] - Quote
People with 22 mining accounts or lap/research one man corps would dwindle.
Markets would get interesting. |
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Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
184
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:33:00 -
[101] - Quote
Actually PLEX was one of the smartest things CCP ever did.
And to kill your immediate response no I have never bought a PLEX. It still doesn't change that fact it was a smart move by CCP.
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Virgil Travis
GWA Corp
83
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Posted - 2012.04.05 01:59:00 -
[102] - Quote
Nub Sauce wrote:SmilingVagrant wrote:Nub Sauce wrote: Yeah, that is pretty much my point. You can either play (time) to win or pay (real $$) to win. PLEX falls into the 'pay (real $$) to win' side of things.
But that isn't what pay to win means. So spending extra real $$ ( pay) to ( to) gain power faster ( win) than those who are just playing the game without spending extra $$ is not paying to win?
Not at all, it simply gives you more spending power to buy the same things that everybody else has access to. It can still be destroyerd and gives no special benefits that is not accessible by someone else if they choose to purchase that item.
The ISK paid to that indivisual selling the PLEX or GTC comes from other players and its price is governed by market forces as you've said yourself. If it was play to win it would allow those selling them to gain access to in game benefits that others were denied. Roses are red. Bacon is also red. Poems are hard. Bacon. |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
1
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Posted - 2012.04.05 02:42:00 -
[103] - Quote
Pay to Win? For me it's Pay to Play.
I saw in some other thread a guy described the "average" player as someone who spends 15 hours / week in game. I must be way below average, because I'm lucky if I can get a few hours on the weekend to login and run some L4s. If it weren't for PLEX, I wouldn't be playing EVE at all. Because it would mean spending all of my available game time trying to earn ISK to buy ships and ammo, rather than doing the fun stuff like actually flying my ships and shooting stuff. And what would be the point of that?
Somewhere on planet Earth, there is a 14 year old kid with no job who plays EVE 40 hours a week and earns billions of ISK a day. I'm paying his subscription fee and he's buying me missiles. He's cool with that, and I'm cool with that. Everybody else can just **** off.
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
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Ai Shun
596
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Posted - 2012.04.05 03:26:00 -
[104] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:Pay to Win? For me it's Pay to Play.
I saw in some other thread a guy described the "average" player as someone who spends 15 hours / week in game. I must be way below average, because I'm lucky if I can get a few hours on the weekend to login and run some L4s. If it weren't for PLEX, I wouldn't be playing EVE at all. Because it would mean spending all of my available game time trying to earn ISK to buy ships and ammo, rather than doing the fun stuff like actually flying my ships and shooting stuff. And what would be the point of that?
Somewhere on planet Earth, there is a 14 year old kid with no job who plays EVE 40 hours a week and earns billions of ISK a day. I'm paying his subscription fee and he's buying me missiles. He's cool with that, and I'm cool with that. Everybody else can just **** off.
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
+1
And thank you for offline training, CCP. It means I can train when I can't play; thus helping to put more players on an equal footing. Just like PLEX and all the other toys and tools ... |
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.04.05 03:47:00 -
[105] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:[quote=Tippia][quote=Jacob Staffuer]Even worse than ignorance is when people make up convoluted, ad-hoc definitions of things to fit their arguments.
It's cute how people who don't know anything about the gaming industry think they have the authority to come into a discussion and make definitions up about it, though. So yeah, keep talking out your ass. :) Wow.. You're taking arrogance and hypocrisy to a whole new level. Even suggesting Plex to be removed from the game proves that you have no idea how the gaming industry works. Do you understand how this will affect the company's income? Besides monthly subs, the only other income is from PLEX, and you should know this when you are such a ******* pro at gaming industry. Also, you are ignoring everyone else's arguments just because they do not support your own case. If that's not ignorance, then I don't know.. Get off your tall jew-horse and reflect upon this post......
*Edit* And to revert your earlier statement. Wouldn't it be unfair to players that did not have time to set aside for farming if they had to go up versus players that were farming day and night? |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
263
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 06:35:00 -
[106] - Quote
Hatch Nasty wrote:
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
People who actually played to win and put that effort in.
If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut.
The fact is, they should both be illegal. These are the practices (pay for virtual goods with real cash) that caused EA to be named worst company of the year. |
Hatch Nasty
Nasty Enterprises
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:06:00 -
[107] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Hatch Nasty wrote: Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
People who actually played to win and put that effort in.
Meh. I fail to see how they lost, they are rewarded by the PLEX system with the opportunity to play for free. I suspect that most people who are paying their subs in PLEX do not feel like they are hurt by the system. I think the only people who are butthurt over PLEX are the people who a) don't have the time or inclination to grind ISK, and b) don't have the RL currency to pay for PLEX. It sucks for them to be sure, but no one ever said life was fair.
Aranakas wrote: If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut.
There is a major difference between PLEX and RMT, beyond CCP lining its pockets, and that is that unlike RMT CCP controls the PLEX market. If in-game PLEX prices rise too high, CCP can run sales on PLEX to increase supply. They have even stated that the company is prepared to take emergency steps in such a case (seeding PLEX into the market directly). Conversely, if PLEX prices crash, CCP can suspend PLEX sales until the market recovers. None of these options are available in the RMT market. CCP is in the PLEX business to make profit, for sure. But they directly benefit from a strong in-game economy, as well, and so they will not trash the EVE economy to make a buttload of cash on PLEX sales. RMT traders have no such qualms.
That is the difference.
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
453
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:11:00 -
[108] - Quote
Aranakas wrote: Also unfair to those playing the game.
Ahh, the "f" word. Fair. That word that conveniently divides the entire universe in two exactly where you want it to. Honestly no one gives a crap about what you think is "fair" and "unfair". In fact, I think YOUR view is pretty unfair. See what happens when you play with subjective terms that have absolutely no meaning? Suddenly you're on the wrong side, because I say you are. And now we can argue forever and never get anywhere. |
Lt Angus
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 11:24:00 -
[109] - Quote
Plex is great for noobs who dont want to grind their first bil and great for vets to play for free. Why anyone with more than 5mill SP would sell plex escapes me. |
Jacob Staffuer
State War Academy Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:03:00 -
[110] - Quote
Mugged Yougot wrote:Even suggesting Plex to be removed from the game proves that you have no idea how the gaming industry works.
Well then, it's a wonderfully jolly thing that I never suggested PLEX be removed from the game. And the fact that I didn't proves that you have the reading comprehension of an uncouth neanderthal.
*looks at you*
*unzips pants*
Yeah. Time to get on your knees and call me Mr. Daddy... |
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TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
118
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Posted - 2012.04.05 13:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:spending real money for fake money is pointless
I feel this way whenever I travel to other countries and have to change -ú into something else.
Oh wait, isk is an actual currency, the only difference is you can't convert it back. Also, changing -ú to isk so you can buy things in game..... that kind of gives it a point, so, erm....
What's your beef with plex? Personally, I get paid enough that I sub on a yearly basis and plex whenever the mindnumbing tedium of ratting\incursions\missions gets too much for me to handle.
I like explosions, ones where other people cry about it. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
199
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 13:51:00 -
[112] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Hatch Nasty wrote:
Pay to Win. If I won, who lost?
People who actually played to win and put that effort in.
So I'll ask again, if you see a player a sitting at a gate in a Mach, how can you that he bought that with a plex or with his own earned isk?
And what about the players who put in the effort to make their own isk, but use a portion of that isk to purchase a PLEX from a plex seller because they cannot afford the game by other means. If you want to talk about fairness then tell me how this would be fair to them. They are working hard like you after all.
Aranakas wrote:If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut.
They are the same thing eh.
Why haven't we heard stories about CCP hacking players computers and stealing their accounts to use as bots?
Why don't I receive an in game item from an isk bot that I can use to benefit not only myself but another player as well?
Why don't I get keyloggers and viruses when I log into my account page?
Why don't I see CCP Sreegs piloting 12 hulks clearing out my belts?
Aranakas wrote:The fact is, they should both be illegal. These are the practices (pay for virtual goods with real cash) that caused EA to be named worst company of the year.
Citation please.
I also have a ton of other questions that are still left unanswered in this thread. Feel free to run through and wow us with your answers. |
Frying Doom
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
159
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:01:00 -
[113] - Quote
I would hardly call plex play to win, way I see it someone uses their RL money to pay for all of my accounts and I do a few days of watching movies while my hulks mine. I haven't payed for 12 months now and really prefer someone else who wants isk to pay for me. Its win win and if they don't have enough SP they can't pilot the bigger stuff anyway. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge. |
Prince Kobol
514
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:08:00 -
[114] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:
People who actually played to win and put that effort in.
If you approve of PLEX for these reasons, you cannot disapprove of RMT. They are the same thing, except one is legal because it means CCP gets to line their pockets with more money and the other is illegal because it lines some chinese guy's pockets with more money and CCP hates being undercut.
The fact is, they should both be illegal. These are the practices (pay for virtual goods with real cash) that caused EA to be named worst company of the year.
Facts.. rofl
The difference between PLEX and what EA, Turbine and other developers do with their cash store is they sell ITEMS, some of which can not be acquired in game and only be purchased via their stores.
Plex does not give you access to anything special. It either gives you game time or isk.. that is it.
Yes PLEX is legal because nobodies humans rights are violated, no laws are broken, their is no connection to a criminal element that exists in gold farming.
Other methods of gaining Eve Online currency are illegal not because some person/company (mentioning the Chinese shows how little about RMT you know) because of the above things I have mentioned as well as other points.
Also the reason why EA was voted the worst company of the year was not just about their cash stores, but because they are god awful across the entire spectrum. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5926
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:26:00 -
[115] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:The difference between PLEX and what EA, Turbine and other developers do with their cash store is they sell ITEMS, some of which can not be acquired in game and only be purchased via their stores.
Plex does not give you access to anything special. It either gives you game time or isk.. that is it. In fact, it's even easier than that: PLEX give you game timeGǪ period.
The difference is that you are allowed to trade this game-time for with other players, be it for ISK or for other items GÇö PLEX themselves are not guaranteed to give you any ISK whatsoever. In effect, you're trading game time for game time: you let them have one more month of playing the game, and they let you have stuff that you could have accumulated yourself if you spent more time playing the game.
PLEX are completely economy-neutral: nothing is added, nothing is removed (wellGǪ ok, some taxes and fees are deducted). This fact alone completely removes any chance of it being a P2W mechanic. You're trading it for stuff that's already in the game GÇö no GÇ£winGÇ£ is being generated that wasn't already there.
Now, the introduction of AUR slightly altered this, since you can now use PLEX to inject worthless and pointless stuff (clothes) into the economy, but since they are exactly that: pointless and worthess, and since you can get your hands on them through by trading with some other peddler of worthless goods, we're once again leagues away from the kinds of item purchases seen in other games, and light-years away from anything that could be considered P2W. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1378
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:31:00 -
[116] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:THE L0CK wrote:Somebody can't afford his own plex. I pay for my account like a good subscriber because I work for my isk and want to keep it.
So you deny CCP revenue .. good for you.. I prefer PLEX since it brings more money to CCP.
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Josefius
13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary
60
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 14:31:00 -
[117] - Quote
So why don't you use it? Try not to bruise it Buy time don't lose it The rePlex is an only child he's waiting in the park The rePlex is in charge of finding treasure in the dark And watching over lucky clover isn't that bizarre Every little thing the rePlex does Leaves you answered with a question mark You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Winston Churchill |
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.04.05 15:52:00 -
[118] - Quote
Jacob Staffuer wrote:Mugged Yougot wrote:Even suggesting Plex to be removed from the game proves that you have no idea how the gaming industry works. Well then, it's a wonderfully jolly thing that I never suggested PLEX be removed from the game. And the fact that I didn't proves that you have the reading comprehension of an uncouth neanderthal. *looks at you* *unzips pants* Yeah. Time to get on your knees and call me Mr. Daddy... I have not bothered reading all your posts, but you are supporting the OP, thus you are either supporting the idea of regulating plex-prices, or remove it completely, and my point still stands. Regulating the prices keeping them low is allowing more people to found their playtime with in-game currency. And you conveniently avoided answering my question. Now go practice some yoga and suck your own ****, you homosexual. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
265
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:07:00 -
[119] - Quote
PLEX gives you access to "game time". ROFL. You don't trade it in for a time machine, you trade it in for isk.
By that logic, if I went and bought drugs its okay, because I'm buying the time it would take to go to Morocco where they're legal and get stoned off my ass and come back. |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 16:08:00 -
[120] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:PLEX gives you access to "game time". ROFL. You don't trade it in for a time machine, you trade it in for isk.
By that logic, if I went and bought drugs its okay, because I'm buying the time it would take to go to Morocco where they're legal and get stoned off my ass and come back.
You avoided answering any of my questions yet again.
I'll give you another one since you don't believe that Plex gives you game time:
What does a player do with the Plex one they have purchased it with isk? |
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