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Abstract
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Posted - 2004.06.18 22:53:00 -
[1]
I have lived with the patch for a while, I like alot of the ideas in the patch but based on my testing and retesting based on what I have seen in the fourms I am going to submit that there should be a rollback and round of serious debugging.
I am a retired software eng. 20 years of coding and after that amount of time I think I can smell bugs, and I smell them big time here.
I think someone has lost control of the code base and does not want to admit it.
The underlaying math is seriously broken.
Fixes are creating bugs.
This is a classic complex systems issue.
The only way I have seen to save a code base that is heading down this path is to do a full stop, feature freeze and code review and full debug pass.
Honesly I think a code review would do it, I think CCP's dev team has some people in it that are dissemiling about what they can handle and in what kind of time frame.
Someone broke alot of stuff responding to some kind of marketing driven priorites that are really a slow suicide pact has we have seen again and again in the VC driven nitemare of the 'tech' boom, these mistakes are classic and well researched, someone should go to school on them.
Has to the balance issue, again the response is knee jerk, and without need.
Eve has a very loyal user base that is willing to put up with alot of stuff.
The root cause of all these things is some kind of interal technical mangment problem releated to lack of experince.
I find myself growing frustrated with EVE.
Regards.
Abs.
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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.06.18 23:05:00 -
[2]
While I disagree about a rollback, I definately agree that there is a growing frustration about this game.
My sound doesn't work and it's repeatedly dismissed as a minor problem. In addition to this the new patch brought in loads of changes, some of which are really, really unbalanced. Having that said I am referring to the NPC hunting profession as a whole, since now they've gotten both ³ber-loot from NPC commanders and tons of minerals in NPC mining ops.
Really, who needs Tech2 production when you can hunt NPC to get better items? Who needs to mine when you in one blow can get a million units of Mexallon from a single NPC carrier (reported earlier today)? Who needs to do anything but NPC hunt since it now surpasses every other carreer in EVE?
This patch has been the most catastrophic thing I've ever seen in any game of any type. Mainly because of my sound issues, but also because it's simply too big. Good luck trying to find balance if you introduce 20 changes relating to each other at a time...
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Scythmar
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Posted - 2004.06.18 23:22:00 -
[3]
Devs...do us all a favor...fix the bugs in this game before you start coming out with new content that will just add more bugs. Your sound isn't working...my game crashes everytime I get warp disrupted. All this patch has done is take a perfectly good game and made it suck. 0.0 used to be a good place to mine and provided a fun challenge. Now 0.0 is just a good place to lose a BS. This game has enough bugs. I lost a megathron the other day because of the buggy nature of this game...of course, no one would not refund it. This game gets more and more frustrating every time there's a new patch. How about a patch to make this game more compatible? Hmm...might be a bit more fun if my game didn't crash constantly...new content is a secondary concern of mine.
--------------- I guarantee that my opinions are the complete opposite of those of my corp and alliance. Get over it. |
Abstract
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Posted - 2004.06.19 00:01:00 -
[4]
in reading some of the posts it seems like they only have one person working on this code base and have moved everyone else to Shiva, is this correct I wonder?
Btw, I agree, I just want bug fixes...the features seem like insults at this point.
From the patch posts it seems like the programmer is just working from the code and not even executing the app to test changes on his machine.
This is insane if true, not that anyone would admit this if called on it, sounds like what they do at some places I have worked which will remain nameless ( MICROSOFT )
'Oh gee, I am such an uber coded I have not had to run the app in weeks."
Grrrr.
Abs.
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Gravimetric
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Posted - 2004.06.19 01:05:00 -
[5]
From CCPs view it's just an optimization between losing players due to bugs and adding/keeping players via the new features. My guess is that in the long run they are better off adding features to attract and retain players. Also, the implementation of the Eve codebase/architecture methinks it non-trivial.
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Abstract
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Posted - 2004.06.19 01:17:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Abstract on 19/06/2004 01:18:57 Well, the high level game seems to have gotten really static so I can see ur point.
But that kind of trade off is not real in my judgment.
I don't think it is healthy to base things on features vs bugs, if an app has become so ungrowable that adding anything produces bugs its time for a code review and debugging with a possible rewrite.
I assume that is what Shiva is and that is why EVE is so buggy right now, because they branched the Shiva code and put all their resources on it.
If so, they should be more realistic and not so panicie.
A buggy app can't be taken back, it creates an impression in the mind.
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HavokTBP
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Posted - 2004.06.19 19:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Scythmar Devs...do us all a favor...fix the bugs in this game before you start coming out with new content that will just add more bugs.
My thoughts exactly.
But rollbacks cause more problems then it solves for players. So thats outta the question..
But a patch with no damn new content but just a patch that fixes everything, some recoding or whatever. I'm honestly sure if they even had to shut down the servers for 24hours to do this kinda fix the eve player base would not dissagree with the outcome.
Member of the Curse Alliance before the Corruption Leader of The Black Plague.
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Tsual
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Posted - 2004.06.19 20:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: HavokTBP I'm honestly sure if they even had to shut down the servers for 24hours to do this kinda fix the eve player base would not dissagree with the outcome.
... when the outcome would be better then the outset.
I doubt that recoding the game is so easy, as the server might also need recoding then. --------------------------------------
Tsual - Miner from faith, frigat junky for life. Ritual of the Qua'nadhar. |
Nasty Nick
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Posted - 2004.06.19 20:07:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Nasty Nick on 19/06/2004 20:10:46 Oh god! As much as it depresses me I must agree with Abstract on his initial post. But I think that CCP are breaking new ground and they are learning about it, so it will be ok ....I hope....
P.S. I dont know enough about the implications of a rollback but it does strike me as out of the question.
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.06.19 21:10:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Zarquon Beeblebrox on 19/06/2004 21:12:16 Its strange how CCP find it logic to balance "all" things over one patch when they have not been able to balace it over 1 year. This game have had a steady history of balancing one thing at the time. Then they find out that things are still not balanced. What then, well ccp think they can rebalance everything in one go, and change close to everything in one patch. How on earth do they think they can make it now when one year of patching have not broght them closer.
Im pritty sure there are coders in CCP that hate and really dislike how things are done. Most certanly they are not heard and are managed by "expert powerpoint managers" in suits and ties thinking they know what they do.
Give the development to the coders and let them do things in the only speed possible. slow!!
-- Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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foster
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Posted - 2004.06.20 09:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: HavokTBP I'm honestly sure if they even had to shut down the servers for 24hours to do this kinda fix the eve player base would not dissagree with the outcome.
i don't agree with a role back almost a week after the problem. but i do agree with HavokTBP, if they shut the servers down for a week and fixed all bugs so when we can play again it was stable, i would be happy with that. but i think the main reason they won't is because they won't get paid for that day/week or however long.
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Damajink
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Posted - 2004.06.20 10:12:00 -
[12]
No rollback.
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Watching
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Posted - 2004.06.20 11:21:00 -
[13]
I don't think a rollback is realistic at this time. Its been almost a week now. Oh, can we change the label on the logon screen to 'Patch month, be carefull out there'?
I think all the problems can be brought down to lack of testing. Letting the players test is a nice add-on, but it can never replace the inhouse Testing, Integration and Acceptance teams. Do these teams exist within CCP? I seriously doubt it, and if they do, they are clearly not doing their job.
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Skip Mitchell
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Posted - 2004.06.22 10:26:00 -
[14]
Ok I'm not a tech head, I play games and that is as far as my PC experiance goes. I do know that I'm a paying customer of EVE who used to enjoy it. But CCP have really screwed it with this patch. most people I speak to think that, but most can't see the point in complaining, cos they believe that CCP won't admit they were wrong. I honestly don't see there was a problem with the old combat system, a 100mil BS should have no concerns about frigs etc, and still be able to enjoy a good scrap with another fully equiped BS. CCP have tried to level a playing field that isn't supposed to be level. They are gona lose alot of customers over this myself included if its not fixed. I believe if you held a poll most players would like to see a roll back to the old combat settings. We are after all the customers and should be listened to.
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Traveler
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Posted - 2004.06.22 13:07:00 -
[15]
Please be a bit more precise when reporting bugs. One of your points was that the patch is bad because of the bugs - but you never mentioned which bugs you mean. Nobody can fix a bug if he does not know of it. So instead of whining, i like to enforce you to actually post the bugs here.
Traveler Polaris Bug Hunter Lead |
Vigilant
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Posted - 2004.06.22 14:48:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Traveler Please be a bit more precise when reporting bugs. One of your points was that the patch is bad because of the bugs - but you never mentioned which bugs you mean. Nobody can fix a bug if he does not know of it. So instead of whining, i like to enforce you to actually post the bugs here.
All you have to do is play the game to see some of the bugs that are being posted throughout the forums... Do the DEVS actually Play EVE anymore? I mean really play? for 8 to 10 hours for a few weeks before releasing patches? I ask, because the problems being seen as of late remind me a lot of problems SOE had with several of their titles for sometime... You know how they fixed (well, almost)....They said this (in so many words "You will get, when you get it (new content), Right now our focus is on bugs..) Guess, what they did for two months straight....They fixed nothing but bugs...Patching almost every week...
Here is a good question? So everytime I un-dock and it does NOT happen...Do you want me to bug it.
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Rodge
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Posted - 2004.06.22 16:03:00 -
[17]
This reply is not intended to be a flame, or a rant. It is my opinion and is a subject that I have some experience with in a commercial environment.
Like many people who play this game, I am a software developer and have been for 7 years. In my experience, the most vital part of the software life cycle is the testing. No-one likes doing it (though I wouldn't mind if the job was testing the game I love), but it has to be done and done well.
I have no problems with bugs arising that are hard to find and not immediately obvious. I do have a problem with bugs arising that should have specifically been tested and tested very thoroughly. Like the tracking changes (I'm only highlighting one of the serious changes introduced, the black screen of death when undocking should have been quite obvious to anyone testing for more than an hour). Surely the spec will say something like
"Make tracking changes so that large turret weapons will only be able to hit targets that they are designed to hit".
That's fairly vague, I'm sure the specifications will be more detailed.
In this case, surely as a minimum level of testing, every large turret weapon must be tested with every type of ammo. Tested at all range levels. Each test must be conducted against every class of ship (not every ship obviously). Each test on a ship should incorporate a test with the target stationary, the target moving, the firing ship stationary, the firing ship moving and combinations therein. Within this test, various modules should also be added to see if they help or hinder the results. `Then the skills of the firing ship and targetted ship should then be tested.
Unless the intention was to radically change how turrets work (ie not be able to hit at optimal range with high skill levels), then testing was not performed in any level of detail. In my opinion, this patch was rushed out when it was not ready. I know that these things do happen. There are generally 3 reasons why this happens:
1. The clients demand the change in a shorter space of time than was originally estimated. Coding and testing times are cut and normal procedures overlooked to get the project out on time. Client's fault. 2. Management demand that the changes go out. The developers and testers are informed that it has to be right, but are not given the time to ensure it is so. Management's fault. 3. The testers pass the changes without testing the changes thoroughly. Testing team's fault.
Now, as far as I am aware we (the clients) were in no rush for this change. So one of the other options is the reason that the changes were rushed out. I have no idea of the internal change management policies at CCP, so I can't apportion blame.
The first step is not, however, to hand out blame. It is to decide what to do next. A rollback is not an option, the changes have been live for too long. A statement that either the changes are correct and this is the way that the game is to work in future (black screen when undocking is how the game is to work, plus turrets cannot hit ships in their optimal range), or a statement that the changes are currently incorrect and development personnel reassigned to fix the bugs. To be honest, I'd be happy if Shiva was delayed by another week if it meant that the developers and bughunters working on it would be available to fix the newly introduced bugs.
As a customer, what am I going to do. Well, I'm not going to quit the game over this. The constant rebooting is really annoying, yes. And the turret tracking, well, I'll just go PvPing and use missiles instead until it's done. But this was a relatively small release. Suffice to say that when Shiva gets released (if I'm still here), then I'll be setting a really long skill to train and just avoiding the game for a while. I'm actually going to see if I can get my subscription to coincide with the release and take some time off the game.
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Ky Vatta
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Posted - 2004.06.22 16:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Traveler Please be a bit more precise when reporting bugs. One of your points was that the patch is bad because of the bugs - but you never mentioned which bugs you mean. Nobody can fix a bug if he does not know of it. So instead of whining, i like to enforce you to actually post the bugs here.
One major bug, that really annoys me: Bug reporting!! There used to be an easy in-game bug report form, but since last weeks patch, is is no longer there!! Everytime I try using the 'Other' petition, it gives me an error, so the only resort left is to do it through the Eve-Insider webpage!!Mind you, I suppose some will say that bug-reporting works fine, but I beg to differ: Just bring back the old Bug Submission Petition Form!! Corp Chief Engineer |
Newborn3
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Posted - 2004.06.22 18:22:00 -
[19]
I totally agree, i am a software developer myself and i also think that testing is very important when releasing a patch or an update. In regards to posting bugs well there is another topic that has alot of bugs in it that there is no need to put the bugs in this topic.
Before releasing a patch there must be solid test senarios created so that every aspect of the patch be tested. I understand this is a game and sometimes the priorites might be on just releasing content but its not a good practice. Before you know it the bugs will be too difficult to solve and the game will be unplayable. Already i have noticed numerious bugs that have appeared since the last patch.
I will hope that the next patch will be tested in a solid manner and that it actually fixes the bugs that exist currectly. I don't want to see a patch unless its going to fix things intead of acctually releasing new bugs because in my mind thats what the patches seem to bring forth.
From the looks of things forget shiva, fix the bugs then take your time releasing content. One of the problems could be is that CCP does not have enough developers to handle all of the coding or the managment of the project might be getting out of hand.
Just some thoughts :)
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Abstract
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Posted - 2004.06.22 21:13:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Abstract on 22/06/2004 21:15:39 BOOL FanBoy = FALSE;
it does sound like alot of non CCP programmers play this game...
...In that context I wanted to make one last comment about this.
This is all intuitive and HIGHLY subjective...
Over many years of working with large code bases I think that I can 'feel' when a group has lost control of a codebase.
This is what I 'feel' now.
I also 'feel' that somehow the origional programmer(s) is not working on this code base and that the people who are working on it now are doing so without really understanding it and may not want to admit this to management.
I have seen this alot, ALOT.
Everyone needs to come clean, EVE needs a serious code review, which is a huge pain of course.
More subjective...
Also there is somthing that has troubled me for a long time with EVE, I honestly think that there are some seriously sadistic people who are using the game has a means to express what they rationalise has humor but is a fratboy sadistic kink like watching ants burn in a lens from the sun.
This to me is the essance of why there are no real content additions, so many bugs, and so much bait and switch.
I have closed both my accounts in protest, I will not be comming back ever, I am not a willing punching bag of some sick F's wanting to validate by hurting people. I play games to support the work of SERIOUS programmers.
I don't like the 'smell' here like a bunch of Elites messing with the poor ignorant little people. All the signs of Hubris.
I KNOW some of u can also feel this and those are the ones I am talking too...
Trust your inner voice not CCP. There are some sick people laughing their arses off over all this.
Well from me...They can take their Jove body parts, Imperial Apoc's, Cloaking Devices and Shiva ( destroyer patch ) and place it in their ...
Regards.
Abs signing off.
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Teresa II
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Posted - 2004.06.23 00:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Abstract Well from me...They can take their Jove body parts, Imperial Apoc's, Cloaking Devices and Shiva ( destroyer patch ) and place it in their ...
My sign here... ;o(
And i agree about code review.
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Sicori Malaki
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Posted - 2004.06.23 01:31:00 -
[22]
got a question for all you "veteran programmers" who play eve.
any of you contacted CCP and offered your services as a Coder to help them debug the game?
I think I know about 1 person who contacted them and which CCP offered a job which he took, and he is now helping them with eve. might be wrong but I think I read about this somewhere. ______________ Only in the Tales that humans tell, do the hunters kill the wolf in the end.
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.06.23 02:24:00 -
[23]
Heh,
It's mighty cold in Iceland you know. The commute would really suck from the US.
On the other hand, tele-commuting might be an option...
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Kerosene
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Posted - 2004.06.23 03:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sicori Malaki got a question for all you "veteran programmers" who play eve.
any of you contacted CCP and offered your services as a Coder to help them debug the game?
I think I know about 1 person who contacted them and which CCP offered a job which he took, and he is now helping them with eve. might be wrong but I think I read about this somewhere.
Would have done except CCP only want people who can work on site, which is understandable. Iceland is a bit of a bugger to get to from China.
<-- Willing to work for peanuts though Average wage here is about 1 Euro a day. I'd do it for 10 Euros a day
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Newborn3
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Posted - 2004.06.23 04:48:00 -
[25]
Well i have said some things before that might have made the devs look bad and i was not really wanting to do that. This project is huge and there might be errors that might come from any place. Even with best testing senerious you might be able to miss some bugs.
I know this goes against what i said before but its true. I have worked on projects in the past where they were huge in a sense where some bugs we had to fix after because we couldn't possibly cover every combination of paths.
I think in my mind that eve devs are doing what they can against such a big project. I was here about 6 months ago and saw there was way more bugs then there is now so thats an improvment. I just hope they will continue to expand this game and make it robust.
How about my status in the game?, i would never quit this game, i love it to say the truth. It might not be perfect but i love the idea and its a lovely game. I wish to enjoy another few years of playing it and expanding my knowlege in its universe.
I mean sure there are a lot of bugs right now but if i was a dev i would be making sure that i was doing what ever i can to fix them. I understand that ccp is a corp and cannot just be telling us everything about its internal workings so right now i suspect they are working on fixes.
I suggest we be patient and civial people and not come to conclusions.
Well keep up the good work devs.
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Traveler
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Posted - 2004.06.23 06:17:00 -
[26]
Still no bug reported - i see only ranting here. No usefull input -> thread closed!
Sorry about that, but we need Bugreports to fix bugs. Just to give you an imagination of what we do. There are about 5000 different items in game. About 1000 of them are weapons. You want us to test them all at all ranges with all ships? Balancing is a hard job. There is a special team only dealing with balancing of weapons. They do a lot of calculations to find the best solution. And of course, they do test their changes.
Traveler Polaris Bug Hunter Lead |
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