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Jimer Lins
Gallente Federation Fleet
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:25:00 -
[31]
Adding victory conditions so a war has a set of goals isn't nerfing them into oblivion. Those who want to use wardecs as they were intended will still be able to.
I'm actually looking forward to seeing how they're going to implement these victory conditions; the challenge isn't trivial. ISK damage inflicted, corp roster loss, number of ships destroyed, production reduced or eliminated? Could be quite interesting.
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Xevan Templar Edited by: Xevan Templar on 08/08/2008 00:23:17 Dude, did you actualy read it yourself.
Quote: often wars started without reason, simply to get random victims to gank and grief
It's not as how CCP intended wardecs, and since they are the one adding it to the system, they can finetune it to what is was ment for. Clearly, get a grip
Yeah...only problem is, no one at CCP was saying things like this a year ago. A year ago, it was "tough toodles". Now it's "we'll change it". --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Acrel
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:31:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Acrel on 08/08/2008 00:34:23 How about completely removing concord and high sec all together? So now new players will experience PvP as soon as they undock for the 1st time or leave the starting area..
Eve has a hard enough time keeping new players due to progression/complexity of the game as it is, allowing low risk ganking in hi sec isn't going to help.. Doing these changes are not only logical and should have been done along time ago but also its the only way to keep Eve alive.. If you only cater to the vets they will quit eventually and you are left with nothing.
The reason I believe for these "nerfs" are not necessary CCP going soft but them actually adapting to whats going on.. The issues that are being changed(war dec, suicide ganking, high sec piracy, concord response time) in the past where happening less frequently but due to a increase in the player base they are happening more and more. Which if CCP sat around and decided not to change anything EvE would become a cluster **** of high sec ganking with little to no risk/reward and would destroy EvE eventually. Same thing would have happened to UO if they didnt add another zone(I didnt agree with UO adding the zone just using as a example).. UO was becoming a cesspool of spawn camping/griefing which would have ruined UO far sooner then adding Trammel(sp?).
Just my opinion and outlook on things.. TBH until CCP makes it so you cant target/attack other pilots in high-sec i dont see what all the *****ing is about, they are just increasing the risk/repercussions for breaking the law in high sec.
Flame on..
edit.. I realize i fail at using commas :(
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Jenna Shame
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:35:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Vikarion
But now I see all of the things I loved as a carebear being taken away, all of the danger, all of the thrill, all of the interesting things...all because people are too downright stupid to protect themselves and their possessions in-game.They act like they are entitled to what they want.
I never griefed in empire, just not my style but it did make it interesting when I had expensive stuff to move and fun, I agree that carebearing is more fun when their is danger.
The problem is you can't fix stupid. I don't know why people are such idiots, but they are, its not like its hard to survive in empire, even if you are hauling around billions, but they are stupid and they die and they whine and they quit and CCP hears the sounds of one less payment in the till.
Sure you might quit, others may quit but stupid people outnumber smart ones, so while CCP may lose some people who have things like situational awareness and some brains, they make up for it with a horde people who can't figure out why they shouldn't move 200k mega in a t1 hauler.
Its not about a good game its about profit. The issue I see is that is short term profit, a good game keeps people a long time, but CCP is focused on the 'average' player that lasts only 6 months. They even posted this at some point in the last year or so. I think its foolish in the end, but tell that to their accounting people.
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:41:00 -
[35]
Again (BTW, Jenna, good points), I'm not arguing that we should eliminate hi-sec. In fact, if we are worried about new players, maybe all new players should be immune for 1 month if they are in hi-sec. I would mind that less than these changes. It's not an all-or-nothing deal, and CCP should not capitulate to whining from either side. But they should keep their word on what this game is supposed to be.
As for it discouraging new players...
Last night I was pirating in low-sec, and came across a trial player. Boom. I snagged him, blew him up, and podded him. Then, to add insult to injury, I convo'd him, and talked to him about the game.
Guess what? He just signed up today.
Now THAT is the kind of person we need in Eve. --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:44:00 -
[36]
Vikarion, I love you.
...in a very dark, deadly, purely non-sexual, unfriendly, opportunistically-violent-griefer kind of way.
Keep fighting the good, evil fight.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:47:00 -
[37]
Thank you, Synapse. I shall try. --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Acrel
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Vikarion
Last night I was pirating in low-sec, and came across a trial player. Boom. I snagged him, blew him up, and podded him. Then, to add insult to injury, I convo'd him, and talked to him about the game.
Guess what? He just signed up today.
Now THAT is the kind of person we need in Eve.
I dont disagree need more like that but sadly those types are few and far between..
As for the 1 month immunity no matter what restrictions you put on that i can see that being exploited one way or another.
Now in my previous post iam not defending afk haulers or macro farmers by all means.. I just understand that there needs to be more of a consequence when it comes to high sec ganking..
Suicide Ganking - Win/Win for the ganker.. If they kill the ship they get the payload and a payout from insurance, If they fail and get concorded they get a insurance payout and dont lose much.
War Decs where being misused.. People where either A making a 1-2 man corp and war decing mostly Indy/Starter corps just for a easy gank.. Or larger corps where targeting ALOT smaller corps for easy ganks.
Actually now that i think about it I dont like the war dec change but eh still a example.
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Lightbriner
VTECHS
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:05:00 -
[39]
You liked that Eve was hard, but feel that the changes to the war dec system "break" your style of play? What is hard about bringing a Megathron to a Covetor fight? Under their proposed system, picking a fight might actually result in a fight, zomg!
As to suicide ganking..again, for most of us its not a concern. Not as carebears and not as aggressors. If you've ever had to escort a freighter/indy chain through nulsec during a war so that your miners can be paid, *then* you might understand what "hard" is.
All I see is a bunch of whining over the fact that existing mechanics are being updated to more accurately reflect their purpose. The writing was always on the wall from the day CCP said you were not supposed to survive as aggressor in high sec. That quite clearly said "You must suffer for thy crimes, sec hit isn't bad enough". Clever people figured out a way to recoupe 100% of their losses and still profit, with no slowdown in sec hit or ship loss. It was always going to be nerfed. You wouldn't remember sniper camps at lowsec gates. Changes to the pvp system predate your time in Eve, do not now complain that CCP has in any way behaved contrary to what they were when you arrived.
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Balrokenx
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:09:00 -
[40]
/signed ccp is slowly turning this into wow in space and when that day comes I'll be leaving. Seriously if we wanted a pve happy land we would be playing wow not Eve.
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Joss Sparq While reading the first post I started to hear a high pitched noise. At first I was afraid I was developing a sudden case of synaesthesia.
What I was actually hearing was the whine ...
Sure, if you call a reasoned and non-inflammatory protest of the castration of your favorite game a whine, then sure. It's a whine.
Your point?
That you're whining.
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 02:31:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Acrel
War Decs where being misused.. People where either A making a 1-2 man corp and war decing mostly Indy/Starter corps just for a easy gank.. Or larger corps where targeting ALOT smaller corps for easy ganks.
See, this is the problem: this is what I do. I like doing this. And, the thing is, 12 months ago CCP thought it was fine.
Now they are saying that I'm misusing the war-dec system. Great. I find something I enjoy doing, and they take it away from me, AFTER stating that it was part of their "vision" for Eve.
Oh, and before I became a griefer and a pirate, I was a carebear. And people did this to me. And guess what? I didn't lose a single ship, because I played INTELLIGENTLY! --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 02:37:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Lightbriner You liked that Eve was hard, but feel that the changes to the war dec system "break" your style of play? What is hard about bringing a Megathron to a Covetor fight? Under their proposed system, picking a fight might actually result in a fight, zomg!
Odd as it may sound, I've never killed a Covetor. Why don't you look at my killboard.
Usually I'm fighting about 3-7 other players, because I'm a lone wolf most of the time. I lost ships, and I won battles, and I had fun. Some of my targets did, too. I even offered to teach a some people about PvP for free.
Now this looks like it is going to be taken away, along with any reasonable suicide ganking, and Minmatar viability.
BTW, I fly Amarr. I'm not whining just for myself - I truly want what is best for the game.
These changes are not what made Eve successful! --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 02:57:00 -
[44]
Vikarion i wholeheartedly agree with you..
especially on the war dec changes.. why would we need bloody "victory conditions"
I, You, WE as war declarers set our OWN "victory conditions" i decide when i have won, you decide when you have won. it is not up to some random mechanic to decide "oh noes teh enemeh haz lost 11 ships and th war haz bean on fur 4 dayz - End teh war"
this isnt an "adapt or die" these changes arent like that, they are simply detracting from the experience of eve.. and very quickly for me, and others "adapt or die" is unfortunately turning into "find another game AND quit"
Hopefully CCP realise that the greates tthing about eve is the we, the players feel ever so slightly in control of our own ingame actions. take that element of self imposed control away, and what is eve?
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:22:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Mu Yaling Vikarion i wholeheartedly agree with you..
especially on the war dec changes.. why would we need bloody "victory conditions"
I, You, WE as war declarers set our OWN "victory conditions" i decide when i have won, you decide when you have won. it is not up to some random mechanic to decide "oh noes teh enemeh haz lost 11 ships and th war haz bean on fur 4 dayz - End teh war"
this isnt an "adapt or die" these changes arent like that, they are simply detracting from the experience of eve.. and very quickly for me, and others "adapt or die" is unfortunately turning into "find another game AND quit"
Hopefully CCP realise that the greates tthing about eve is the we, the players feel ever so slightly in control of our own ingame actions. take that element of self imposed control away, and what is eve?
We aren't going to get that, though, because that has roughly the same end result as current wars - just less talking needed.
If I want someone out of my space right now, I simply convo them up and say "get out of XXXXX or I war-dec you".
No, these changes are all about making sure we can't fight anyone who doesn't want to fight. And that really sucks.
I'm gonna move out to 0.0 and rat so I can suicide everyone who thinks they are safe now. And no, I won't be confining it to "worthwhile" targets. Screw that.
To hell with the ISK, let's kill them all! --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:30:00 -
[46]
unfortunately i agree with you again.
and yes.. im thinking about targetting actual players in belts as much as i can over the next month :D
and im going to try to keep 4 active war decs against industrial corps open.. and better yet, they will be picked randomly from local chats in 1.0 systems! while i still have the oppurtunity.
i mean, ive never actually initiated a war dec for no purpose other than to grief, so it should be fun! i mean, apparently it happens so much it needs a nerf! lets use it while we got it
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:33:00 -
[47]
It is fun. Check out my articles in Eve Tribune for some advice (the Griefer ones)
Eve Tribune --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:35:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Vikarion It is fun. Check out my articles in Eve Tribune for some advice (the Griefer ones)
Eve Tribune
mmhm, i usually have a reason to declare war on industrial type folks.. i.e i flip their cans and they refuse to flip back... which offends me..
"i offer you gift and you do not accept? do you not like my gifts?"
WAR DEC. cue 2 weeks of whining (1 week is never enough) and a few hulk kills
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:37:00 -
[49]
Quote: I'm actually looking forward to seeing how they're going to implement these victory conditions; the challenge isn't trivial. ISK damage inflicted, corp roster loss, number of ships destroyed, production reduced or eliminated? Could be quite interesting.
Me too, but for a different reason. I'm (wildly) hoping that this paves the way for in-game data keeping, KB's in other words.
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:43:00 -
[50]
mmhm..
i have a really nicely trained rifter alt.. and 130 fitted rifters dotted about the place... mmhm.. i feel a grief spree starting!
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:44:00 -
[51]
YEEEAAAAARRRRR! --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Xzar Fyrarr
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.08 03:57:00 -
[52]
CCP .... [long paragraph of reasons why this game is starting to turn into "Let's all gather around the tree and hold people's hands" game. here] As much as I love this game... ccp has just been incredibly disappointing in the recent months ^^
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:01:00 -
[53]
mmhm, unfortunately so..
ive been a full on ccp fanboi for 3 years, been happy with rebalances/nerfs/changes etc
but when the core principals of the game you love get uprooted and transformed into something else, something shiney and mainstream.. it just ****es you off..
last week i tried to convince a friend to join eve..
last night he'd downloaded it and asked what i reccomended him to train.. to be honest.. i didnt know what to say to him.. how can a game that takes so long to really get into be going through so many ham fisted changes so quickly.
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Vikarion
Caldari Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:22:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mu Yaling mmhm, unfortunately so..
ive been a full on ccp fanboi for 3 years, been happy with rebalances/nerfs/changes etc
I've been a fanboi too...but the changes over the past six months have me pretty worried...and these changes upset me a lot.
What happened to our CCP? The one that loved PvPers? --------
Where I got my great sig... |
Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:27:00 -
[55]
I love how the people who think they are the serious players, the hardcore pvpers that the game was made for.... when they don't get what they want?
They throw a tantrum like a 3 year old. Oh my god DaddyCCP! You won't let me grief the people I want, so I'm going to grief everyone! Waaaaaah I'm gonna be a **** and drive people away from the game so that you have to make even harsher rules against griefing! And Ill cry even more when you do that!
Seriously. You guys are freaking idiots. Acting like a bunch of spoiled brats doesn't convince anyone that you just want freedom. You clearly just want to be ****s.
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:28:00 -
[56]
it all started when...
bah come on CCP.. please dont cater to the masses.. remember.. 6 month subscription lifetimes on average.. constantly having to tweak ur game to their whines 24/7
why not cater to us, the crowd of loyal many year subscriptions.. who actually dont want you to have to work 24/7 on changes.. all we want is a UI that works.. and maybe some more fanfest events..
really.. which crowd do you prefer?
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:30:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Sean Forrest I love how the people who think they are the serious players, the hardcore pvpers that the game was made for.... when they don't get what they want?
They throw a tantrum like a 3 year old. Oh my god DaddyCCP! You won't let me grief the people I want, so I'm going to grief everyone! Waaaaaah I'm gonna be a **** and drive people away from the game so that you have to make even harsher rules against griefing! And Ill cry even more when you do that!
Seriously. You guys are freaking idiots. Acting like a bunch of spoiled brats doesn't convince anyone that you just want freedom. You clearly just want to be ****s.
whats wrong with being a ****, as you so eloquently put it?
thats exactly what we want, and we dont agree that the only mmo that caters to us should be changed by a few 6 month subscription pve bears who's only aspiration is to own a CNR and who think corps are just for chat channels..
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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:32:00 -
[58]
I dont understand why you suddenly feel safer in highsec. Suicide ganking IS still going to happen, it just now has actual consequences attached. Cry if you must, but at least do so while recognizing that suicide ganks were misnamed in the past.
Suicide ganks were NOT suicide at all, because the cost of the gank was almost always covered by the loot dropped. In other words, it was a totally painless exercise. Now the only difference is that the gankers will need to pick targets that are truly worth the isk/standings lost. Risk v reward is indeed present, just in a different form than you expected.
...In fact, if you read how concord now spawns suicide ganking may have even received a boost. The new concord attack plan is for the ganker to be tackled faster but die slower than before. This could allow for the truly dedicated ganker, one that isn't afraid to spend isk and standings upon a strategically sound attack, a better chance at success.
Sounds like the dangerous, violent game you desire is still here while the risk-free shoot-em-up of insured ganking is gone. Isn't that what you WANTED?
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Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:34:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 04:34:49 CCP made a game where you can be a ****, they never promised to make it easy. End of story.
Edit: And theres a subtle different being being aggressive or being a ****, and whining like a teenage girl who got dumped on prom night.
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:42:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Mu Yaling on 08/08/2008 04:44:42
Originally by: Sean Forrest Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 04:34:49 CCP made a game where you can be a ****, they never promised to make it easy. End of story.
Edit: And theres a subtle different being being aggressive or being a ****, and whining like a teenage girl who got dumped on prom night.
and to you, im not whining, i simply have better ideas than you, that dont end up with this Pvp game turning into Wowinspace.. this has always been "our game" not yours... i'll get you a list of 100+ mmo's that you can safely make money and upgrade your ***** jewelry untill you get bored.. but for us.. this is a haven of adrenaline fueled encounters, logistcal problemsolving, intelligent trading, and ruthlessly efficient money making
but you go enjoy your victory points.. cash them in for some smug feelings.. just remember the people who make this game what it is.. its typically not the 6 month CNR pve crowd..
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