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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.07.10 13:50:00 -
[1]
Noah (CCP) indicated that CCP was aware that battleships with jumpdrives would become the ultimate ship, and to this end Black Ops ships were pre-nerfed.
Andrew (CSM Jade Constantine) noted that the range of the drive and the presence of cynojammers made the jumpdrive capability virtually useless. Another problem is the limited amount of fuel that can be carried.
Bane (CSM Bane Glorioius) added to this that due to the fuel taking up large amounts of cargo space, loot from successful operations often cannot be hauled back to friendly territory.
Noah (CCP) commented that a Fuel Bay can be added, so that fuel no longer takes up cargo space, or that specialized haulers could perhaps be used to haul the loot back or bring in supplies. CCP will also look at the issue with cynojammers. Jump range might be looked into but is of a lower concern, otherwise Black Ops ships might become too competitive with capital ships.
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email
"It's not worth doing something unless you are doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing." |
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Lieutenant Isis
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:03:00 -
[2]
If covert ops cynos could be lit in cyno jammed systems then the black ops could have a role. They are supposed to be the ships that can jump in behind enemy lines but cannot right now.
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Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:40:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Lieutenant Isis If covert ops cynos could be lit in cyno jammed systems then the black ops could have a role. They are supposed to be the ships that can jump in behind enemy lines but cannot right now.
I concur, as long as the new fuel bay idea doesn't allow too many ships to bridge in. One black ops should not be able to bring in enough ships to drop the system. It should require a group.
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Pwett
Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:44:00 -
[4]
Shouldn't we be looking at using LESS capitals?
I'm all for people using 800 million isk ships with less tank and firepower than a real battleship. What exactly is the problem? _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Lieutenant Isis
Gristle Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Lieutenant Isis If covert ops cynos could be lit in cyno jammed systems then the black ops could have a role. They are supposed to be the ships that can jump in behind enemy lines but cannot right now.
I concur, as long as the new fuel bay idea doesn't allow too many ships to bridge in. One black ops should not be able to bring in enough ships to drop the system. It should require a group.
And the cyno jammer would still not allow normal jump ships to enter thus protecting from total invasion. And yes limit the number of covert ships that can bridge in either via fuel or just a set number.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:49:00 -
[6]
just a thought, but if you include a fuel bay, why not have one type of fuel personal jumping and another type for bridging, it would mean having to manage your fuel rather than just filling it. ----------------------
CSM 08 Blog | 1st Campaign Vid |
Bane Glorious
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Posted - 2008.07.10 16:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Bane (CSM Bane Glorioius) added to this that due to the fuel taking up large amounts of cargo space, loot from successful operations often cannot be hauled back to friendly territory.
Noah (CCP) commented that a Fuel Bay can be added, so that fuel no longer takes up cargo space, or that specialized haulers could perhaps be used to haul the loot back or bring in supplies. CCP will also look at the issue with cynojammers. Jump range might be looked into but is of a lower concern, otherwise Black Ops ships might become too competitive with capital ships.
To expand on this part: with the loot recollection issue, I recommended that Deep Space Transports (e.g. Impel, Mastodon, etc.) be able to use the covert jump bridge specifically, and not Blockade Runners. Deep Space Transports are generally underused and Blockade Runners don't really need any more help when it comes to evading people. Wasn't originally my idea, though. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Bane Glorious
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Bane (CSM Bane Glorioius) added to this that due to the fuel taking up large amounts of cargo space, loot from successful operations often cannot be hauled back to friendly territory.
Noah (CCP) commented that a Fuel Bay can be added, so that fuel no longer takes up cargo space, or that specialized haulers could perhaps be used to haul the loot back or bring in supplies. CCP will also look at the issue with cynojammers. Jump range might be looked into but is of a lower concern, otherwise Black Ops ships might become too competitive with capital ships.
To expand on this part: with the loot recollection issue, I recommended that Deep Space Transports (e.g. Impel, Mastodon, etc.) be able to use the covert jump bridge specifically, and not Blockade Runners. Deep Space Transports are generally underused and Blockade Runners don't really need any more help when it comes to evading people. Wasn't originally my idea, though.
I thought it was a great idea though - deep space transports being covert jump bridgeable via Black ops would absolutely rock.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Threv Echandari
K Directorate
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:05:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Threv Echandari on 10/07/2008 17:06:01
Originally by: Bane Glorious
To expand on this part: with the loot recollection issue, I recommended that Deep Space Transports (e.g. Impel, Mastodon, etc.) be able to use the covert jump bridge specifically, and not Blockade Runners. Deep Space Transports are generally underused and Blockade Runners don't really need any more help when it comes to evading people. Wasn't originally my idea, though.
Agreed This would give those ships a role much like the KC-135 Tanker in use today by many militaries. ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
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Deep Slumber
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.10 17:20:00 -
[10]
Having recently spent some time on Singularity to get a feel for BlackOps, I strongly support taking a look at them.
The cargo space is a problem if you are not using a Sin (or Redeemer) due to having to carry ammo/cap booster charges, isotopes, and loot. A slight increase in fuel bay size and/or making deep space transports indeed capable of using the portal should be looked at as well.
Concerning allowing covert cynos in cynojammed systems - I cannot decide. On the one hand a cynojammed system should in my opinion favour the resident (defending) alliance, and bridging in 30 Falcons before the fleet jumps into the defender's camp could make it a bit too easy.
Not an easy balancing task. I look forward to seeing Black Ops being more attractive for sure.
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MarleWH
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:15:00 -
[11]
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Jenessa
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:22:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jenessa on 10/07/2008 18:23:37 I'm absolutely in favour of both the seperate fuel bay and the covert cyno change. The fuel bay is self explanitory but as someone has already said the Black Ops is supposed to be a ship capable of jumping behind enemy lines but with the proliferation of cyno jammers it's nearly useless, plus people are unwilling to train the Cynosural Field training still to 5 atm because it offers no real tangable benefits that are worth the skill training time.
If you simply make it so cyno jammers do not affect covert generators then you have given black ops a new lease of life. You then have the ability to move ships behind enemy lines but you are still unable to move ships capable of affecting sovereignty into the system.
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.10 18:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 10/07/2008 18:34:20 How exactly is someone meant to fly a black ops even if it has fuel bay? While it sounds good, and anything that improves the cargo capacity of my Hauler Redeemer is a positive, I still cannot conceive why I would want to fly a Black Ops in
1. Large Scale Warfare 2. Mid Sized romaing gangs 3. Small Scale hit and runs etc
The Fundamental issues with black ops is that you got a Droneship, a EW boat, a Laserboat that lacks cap to MWD out of a large bubble etc. Its too spread a random mix that its best to redesign these ships with a pvp role in mind and not some theoretical stuff that sounds good on paper but in reality nobody will use.
Give these ships a proper real world role that actually encorages people to use them in pvp. --
Billion Isk Mission |
D0INK
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.07.10 19:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jenessa Edited by: Jenessa on 10/07/2008 18:23:37 I'm absolutely in favour of both the seperate fuel bay and the covert cyno change. The fuel bay is self explanitory but as someone has already said the Black Ops is supposed to be a ship capable of jumping behind enemy lines but with the proliferation of cyno jammers it's nearly useless, plus people are unwilling to train the Cynosural Field training still to 5 atm because it offers no real tangable benefits that are worth the skill training time.
If you simply make it so cyno jammers do not affect covert generators then you have given black ops a new lease of life. You then have the ability to move ships behind enemy lines but you are still unable to move ships capable of affecting sovereignty into the system.
This. -------------------------------------------------- Run. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.10 22:43:00 -
[15]
I'm positive about these, as I think the Widow looks like sex on a stick.
I fully agree that the all singing all dancing pwnmobile is not what anyone wants.
I'd still like to see a ship that isn't just outclassed by a T1 equivalent though. That's a bit depressing. Not sure what the fix is - I'd settle for some scan res though.
I like the idea of improved jumping/jumpbridging capability. As an aside, how about actually allowing covops cynos in highsec?
-- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Ford Hakata
Hakata Group Blade.
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Posted - 2008.07.10 22:52:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bane Glorious To expand on this part: with the loot recollection issue, I recommended that Deep Space Transports (e.g. Impel, Mastodon, etc.) be able to use the covert jump bridge specifically, and not Blockade Runners. Deep Space Transports are generally underused and Blockade Runners don't really need any more help when it comes to evading people. Wasn't originally my idea, though.
This is a wonderful idea. Simple, opens the game to stealth missions deep into enemy territory and gives carebears another way to actively help with tactical issues. --
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Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2008.07.10 23:09:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Letrange on 10/07/2008 23:10:16 I fully support the inclusion of one of the two types of transport being able to be cov-ops cyno'ed
Logically it should be the blockade runner. One of the arguments against the normal DST being that the cargo bay you can get on one of those is extreme and may render a black ops squadron as a whole over powered.
On the flip side a DST being zipped around by a black ops would really bring new meaning to "combat logistics".
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Temugen
Obsessive Compulsive Destruction The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.07.10 23:11:00 -
[18]
The Fuel bay and deep space transports using black ops jb's is an excellent idea and would solve 90% of this issue. We should change this discussion to verifing that exploits of this mechanic are not currently in someone's mind... /me points at Bane and his goon cohorts
Check here for more Recruiting Info. JUMBO |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.07.11 06:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Temugen The Fuel bay and deep space transports using black ops jb's is an excellent idea and would solve 90% of this issue.
You must be profoundly stupid and inexperienced to think such a thing.
I was expecting much more sensible changes like the ones suggested my assembly hall thread, instead we have several months later, absolutely no change on the CCP position.
A dedicated fuel bay doesn't make them even remotely relevant--they are a gimmick right now rather than gameplay, to that end no one cares about jump bridges or covert cyno fields when the core stats of the ship favor virtually every other ship class in the game. At no point is the opportunity cost of fielding a single black ops worth the cost when you could have had an insurable carrier or a handful of hacs and battleships for the same amount. When every circumstance favors other ship types 100% of the time, its clear black ops need a more dramatic revision than some token, non-combat tweaks, particularly when you can't apply any realistic fits to any of them.
That someone can suggest that the fix for a combat ship is some byzantine logic with a hauler boggles the mind. THE SOLUTION TO BLACK OPS IS BRIDGING HAULERS GUYS RELAX. As I've said before, bridging recons and or haulers is meaningless, costly and counterproductive--you can't siege pos, knock out station services or anything of value. It's especially wasteful when those same recons could have traveled to a system on their own without obstruction. We need parsimony of balance not some roulette style balancing where the tech two version is several magnitudes worse than its tech one hull much less a single recon ship.
That someone like Jade with the pretense of being a guerrilla warfare expert could bring nothing more insightful or persuasive than this is truly telling and disappointing. This was an area where only a handful of people could provide meaningful contributions and one that was as a result, at risk of being marginalized because of its time and skill investment--lucky for us, both CSM and CCP completely failed to deliver. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.11 07:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lord WarATron The Fundamental issues with black ops is that you got a Droneship, a EW boat, a Laserboat that lacks cap to MWD out of a large bubble etc. Its too spread a random mix that its best to redesign these ships with a pvp role in mind and not some theoretical stuff that sounds good on paper but in reality nobody will use.
Give these ships a proper real world role that actually encorages people to use them in pvp.
Wow, I'm totally agreeing with this. I'm going to fish out the old blackops boost threads, as there are many issues with blackops and I can't believe that only the jump capabilties are being discussed here. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 07:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Erotic Irony they are a gimmick right now rather than gameplay, to that end no one cares about jump bridges or covert cyno fields when the core stats of the ship favor virtually every other ship class in the game. At no point is the opportunity cost of fielding a single black ops worth the cost when you could have had an insurable carrier or a handful of hacs and battleships for the same amount.
Exactly. Fuel bay, jumping into cynojammed systems etc etc does not solve the fundamental issue, which is that black ops, like assault frigs, have no real world role. Its the old "putting a band aid" on a broken leg story.
You can already jump into cynojammed systems by using the gate. Before you say the system is camped, what exactly is a black ops meant to acheive in a cynojammed system that is camped? Attack someone in belts? Do people rat when they are camping a cynojammed system? Nanoships or Force recons are better for moving stuff in. Perhaps you catch a ratter or someone in station in a camped system,good luck trying to kill such a target before the people camping rush to gank the black ops.
Back to point, there are several different real world idea's for blackops that actually give it a use in real world pvp. I have written down the best idea's I have seen in the forums. I have written the best idea for each category of pvp. They can be inclusive or exclusive of each other
1. Large fleet pvp - Black Ops become doomsday resistant/immune long range jumpdrive snipers. A bunch of these ships jump in or uncloak. 2. Small/Mid sized pvp - Having the portal ability to portal any ship sub capital. This way, a black ops can portal his gang to destination and jump though himself afterwards. Just now, whats the point of portal when you cannot portal hic's etc through? 3. Solo pvper - Well, best I read was turning these into cov ops cloaking battlecruisers, since thats pretty much what they are.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.11 07:36:00 -
[22]
Black ops issues: -Resists: It's a T2 ship, where are my T2 resists? -Cloak: BO gets a bonus no targetting delay due to cloaking, but the Improved Cloak give me a delay in scan res. So wtf is that? -Cloak2: Can we haz COCD? BO has the stats of a Force recon yet not the cloak -Fitting: More grid/cpu please -2ly Jump range? Come on... -Give me tank or ewar or something, it has no role... -Can I portal in a useful ship, a hictor/interceptor anything. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.11 08:05:00 -
[23]
Without greater range and a fuel bay they cannot reach their intended function as they cannot reach enemy territory.
For supply purposes we need a covert ops transport. This could just be a higher level transport, say level 3. Covert Ops Transport, it can jump with the Black Ops Battleship. It should just be a higher level transport and not a separate skill. However add the ability to fly a covert ops frigate to the prerequisite to fly the actual ship.
The Covert Ops Transport should have 3 Hi Slots (no turret or launcher hardpoints)...primarily to allow a salvager, tractor beam and cover ops cloak. Mid and Low slots should be probably 2 or 3. 2 rig slots. Cargo capacity about 1/2 of the current blockade runner. handling on par with a blockade runner.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 08:39:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua Without greater range and a fuel bay they cannot reach their intended function as they cannot reach enemy territory.
What is their intended function? I have yet to see a single pvper actually define how to use a black ops even if it could jump further (which is no bad thing).
My Cargo Expander Redeemer can benifit from such, since if thats all that is changeing, then all black ops will become are Jumpdrive haulers. With most alliances bridge networks the way that they are, you can jump all the way from deep 0.0 via pos cyno's or bridges to 1j from hihgsec and if the gate does not have a bubble up, just though to highsec. On the return journy, skip all camps by jumping straight to a pos cyno from high sec and bridge/pos cyno yourself back solo. Is that their intended function? Because thats all they are going to be used for if changing jump ranges is the only function. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua For supply purposes we need a covert ops transport. This could just be a higher level transport, say level 3. Covert Ops Transport, it can jump with the Black Ops Battleship. It should just be a higher level transport and not a separate skill. However add the ability to fly a covert ops frigate to the prerequisite to fly the actual ship.
You're talking about transport ships as the antidote to black ops battleships. No one cares that you think there should covert transports given the ubiquity of carriers, rorquals and bridge networks.
I'll paste this a few more times until you understand how spurious and irrational this is: You're talking about transport ships as the antidote to black ops battleships. You're talking about transport ships as the antidote to black ops battleships. You're talking about transport ships as the antidote to black ops battleships. You're talking about transport ships as the antidote to black ops battleships.
In any event, covert haulers already exist; its called a pilgrim. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:32:00 -
[26]
One complaint is that you can't haul the loot due to fuel requirements. The Black Ops Battleship still has to jump, I'm suggesting that perhaps we need another ship to fulfill the role to collect the loot and such from such ops thus alleviating the problem. The Transport in itself can't jump on its own, it would only be able to jump just like the covert ops frigates with the Black Ops battleship.
It could be used to carry additional fuel as well or additional ammunition or a combination of the two thus extending the black ops operational ability.
The largest problem with the Black Ops Battleship itself is it lacks the range to reach many systems. It also has a small cargo capacity relative to the fuel needed. The small cargo capacity affects more than just its jumping though it limits ammunition for the operation making it hard to operate for extended periods of time even if it can make it to enemy space. A covert ops transport would help alleviate that problem.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:33:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Mecinia Lua Without greater range and a fuel bay they cannot reach their intended function as they cannot reach enemy territory.
What is their intended function? I have yet to see a single pvper actually define how to use a black ops even if it could jump further (which is no bad thing).
My Cargo Expander Redeemer can benifit from such, since if thats all that is changeing, then all black ops will become are Jumpdrive haulers. With most alliances bridge networks the way that they are, you can jump all the way from deep 0.0 via pos cyno's or bridges to 1j from hihgsec and if the gate does not have a bubble up, just though to highsec. On the return journy, skip all camps by jumping straight to a pos cyno from high sec and bridge/pos cyno yourself back solo. Is that their intended function? Because thats all they are going to be used for if changing jump ranges is the only function.
There function was to strike into enemy space with small commando raids, something they can't do right now due to constraints of jump range, fuel and ammunition reserves.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Mecinia Lua Without greater range and a fuel bay they cannot reach their intended function as they cannot reach enemy territory.
What is their intended function? I have yet to see a single pvper actually define how to use a black ops even if it could jump further (which is no bad thing).
My Cargo Expander Redeemer can benifit from such, since if thats all that is changeing, then all black ops will become are Jumpdrive haulers. With most alliances bridge networks the way that they are, you can jump all the way from deep 0.0 via pos cyno's or bridges to 1j from hihgsec and if the gate does not have a bubble up, just though to highsec. On the return journy, skip all camps by jumping straight to a pos cyno from high sec and bridge/pos cyno yourself back solo. Is that their intended function? Because thats all they are going to be used for if changing jump ranges is the only function.
There function was to strike into enemy space with small commando raids, something they can't do right now due to constraints of jump range, fuel and ammunition reserves.
Small Commando raids? Define "Commando Raids" in eve. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.11 09:57:00 -
[29]
The ability to jump into a system and hit soft targets without necessarily having to contend with the gatecamps in between. (Cynojammers I still believe should block them :) )
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Waxau
Unus - Vir Exercitus
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Posted - 2008.07.11 10:40:00 -
[30]
To be frank - Whilst the proposed issues/changes to black ops are useful, they still leave the ship roleless and underhanded in combat. The jump range and fuel bay isnt the base concern, its more so the ships have no true role in pvp.
A suggested fix has been that of creating them as 'bs force recons'. Has been discussed at great lengths in many topics, so wont spam anymore. But yes - Whilst its good to see them being looked into, scan res, whole 'unable to warp cloaked' and so on gives them a whole variety of issues (let alone holding no advantage in most scenarios vs their t1 variants.)
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Zarch AlDain
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.11 10:49:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
There function was to strike into enemy space with small commando raids, something they can't do right now due to constraints of jump range, fuel and ammunition reserves.
Small Commando raids? Define "Commando Raids" in eve.
And in what way is a black ops BS superior to a nano gang for that purpose?
Zarch AlDain ---- My corp is recruiting. See the recruitment thread here.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 10:53:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/07/2008 10:54:05
Originally by: Mecinia Lua The ability to jump into a system and hit soft targets without necessarily having to contend with the gatecamps in between. (Cynojammers I still believe should block them :) )
Jump to what - is the enemy going to open you a cyno? What is a "Soft target"? I am not trying to be defficult here, I am pointing out the fact that these ships are useless for raiding roles. If CCP called these kung-fu ships, then people would still be like "OMG, its the best beause it has the word kung fu in it, so we can kung fu our enemies". Its like Stealth Bombers, there are people today who think Stealth Bombers are the best simply because they somehow think it has real life connection.
My friend, I have done many solo and "commando" raids. Such raids rely upon speed. If you are not fast, the mark will see you in local and warp out or dock up. Or even logoff before being agressed or call for backup. Your commando raids are actualy what current nanogangs or cloaking nanogangs do. They can charge in commando style, kill people fast and run back to safety.
If you genuinly beleive that a Black Ops pilot will somehow send a recon or cov ops to destination then you may as well send a nanogang though. If all that happens with these ships is extra Fuel, then all people are going to do is use them as cheap jumpdrive haulers insted of pvp.
And pvp is the point of these things. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.11 12:37:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 11/07/2008 12:37:51 I was just comparing the stats of the Redeemer with the Armageddon and I am a bit surprised to see the stats of the Redeemer are even worse than those of a simple tier 1 battleship. Trading an important low slot for a not so important med slot, lower shield and armor hp and no tech 2 resists seems pretty crap. With those kind of stats can it even rat in 0.0? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute |
Zakgram
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.11 13:00:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Trading an important low slot for a not so important med slot, lower shield and armor hp and no tech 2 resists seems pretty crap. With those kind of stats can it even rat in 0.0?
Put a shield extender in that mid slot
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White Ronin
Gallente Screenout
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Posted - 2008.07.11 15:24:00 -
[35]
Will all those "its fine except for the fuel bay" fans just quit. Unless this ship is for stealth HAULING then it really does no crap to fix its lack of combat ability compared to its t1 counterpart. Add to this a half billion dollar price tag and I often wish that whatever crap you people are smoking was available and affordable to people in my area. Its a COMBAT ship so lets try to focus on actually making it useful there OK?
--------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. " |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.07.11 18:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/07/2008 10:54:05
Originally by: Mecinia Lua The ability to jump into a system and hit soft targets without necessarily having to contend with the gatecamps in between. (Cynojammers I still believe should block them :) )
Jump to what - is the enemy going to open you a cyno? What is a "Soft target"? I am not trying to be defficult here, I am pointing out the fact that these ships are useless for raiding roles. If CCP called these kung-fu ships, then people would still be like "OMG, its the best beause it has the word kung fu in it, so we can kung fu our enemies". Its like Stealth Bombers, there are people today who think Stealth Bombers are the best simply because they somehow think it has real life connection.
My friend, I have done many solo and "commando" raids. Such raids rely upon speed. If you are not fast, the mark will see you in local and warp out or dock up. Or even logoff before being agressed or call for backup. Your commando raids are actualy what current nanogangs or cloaking nanogangs do. They can charge in commando style, kill people fast and run back to safety.
If you genuinly beleive that a Black Ops pilot will somehow send a recon or cov ops to destination then you may as well send a nanogang though. If all that happens with these ships is extra Fuel, then all people are going to do is use them as cheap jumpdrive haulers insted of pvp.
And pvp is the point of these things.
Sometimes its better to work in small steps rather than big leaps at once. THey'll have to have one covert ops or recon ahead in order to open the cyno.
A Stealth Bomber is best used for an alpha strike when the person is already distracted. If you stay to shoot more than twice your most likely dead.
THe problem from CCPs viewpoint is that if they make it the equal of a t1 Battleship even, then the defender will have little to no chance. It is better to boost in small ways first and see how it affects it rather than a large boost at once.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Felysta Sandorn
Celestial Apocalypse The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.11 18:55:00 -
[37]
I'd say the following improvements should be looked at:
1) Seperate the Cargo and Fuel Bay for all jump ships including jump freighters and capitals, plus add a fuel bay for recon ships in order for them to carry liquid ozone (exactly enough ozone for two cynos at cynosural field generation 5). The cyno generator on these ships is currently epicly underused, and this would be a good addition.
2) Allow covert cynos to be dropped in cyno-jammed systems for real use of a Black Ops BS.
3) Give the ships bonusses to their race's recon ships, combined with reducing the number of guns, and adding a 100% bonus, to the damage to allow for easier fitting.
Now for an example: The Redeemer:
Quote: Amarr Battleship Bonus: Current: 10% Reduction in Capacitor Use for Large Energy Turrets, 5% Bonus to Large Energy Turret RoF Proposed: 10% Reduction in Energy Vampire and Energy Neutraliser Duration, 5% Bonus to Large Energy Turret RoF
Black Ops Bonus: Current: 7.5% Bonus to Large Energy Turret Tracking, 125% To Cloaked Velocity Proposed: Unchanged
Statistics: 3 Turret Hardpoints (Down from 6) 7 Highslots (Down from 8) 5 Medslots (Up from 4) +500m3 Fuel Bay (Isotopes and Ozone only) 200m3 Drone Bay (Up from 125m3) +30 CPU (to accomodate NOS/Neut bonus)
The damage and tanking abilities remain unchanged here, however the utility ability is greatly improved, with an added midslot for an EW module, and the two spare high slots for NOS/Neuts makes the ship much more flexible. Also an extra 75m3 drone bay allows you to carry spares (unlike the ship in it's current state), because let's be honest, you're going to be behind enemy lines for a while, and you're bound to lose some drones!
This is not necessarily a boost to the ship, it just allows for much greater flexibility. Other than the NOS bonus (which follows the whole 'wasted bonus' of Amarr ships, but that's another topic), these changes do not boost the ship in any way other than flexibility.
The NOS bonus, similar to the one on the Pilgrim and Curse, however instead of adding amount, it reduces the reduction by half, which is exactly the same affect, but again, allows for greater flexibility, rather than such a long wait between cycles, remember this is a hit-and-run ship, not a tank-machine that can sit there forever.
Similar bonusses should be given to the other races as well, along with a redistribution of slots in order to allow for use of those bonusses: Gallente - Warp Disruption Range (possibly an infinate point?) Minmatar - Stasis Webifier Range (100% bonus to range instead of 60%?) Caldari - More ECM strength and a higher ECM Jammer strength (Make it like two Falcons rather than just a really expensive Scorp)
.: A Vagabond's Requiem (Blog) :.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 19:09:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/07/2008 19:10:04
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Sometimes its better to work in small steps rather than big leaps at once. THey'll have to have one covert ops or recon ahead in order to open the cyno.
A Stealth Bomber is best used for an alpha strike when the person is already distracted. If you stay to shoot more than twice your most likely dead.
THe problem from CCPs viewpoint is that if they make it the equal of a t1 Battleship even, then the defender will have little to no chance. It is better to boost in small ways first and see how it affects it rather than a large boost at once.
For large fleets, mid gangs, small gangs and even solo pvp, these ships are pretty useless. Playing the "T2 bs cannot be better than t1" card is not strictuly true. A Cerberus outclasses a carcarel. A Zealot outclasses a Omen.
Loosing a omen is pretty much profit. Loosing a Zealot is a small loss. Loosing a Equivalent of a uninsured carrier (black ops) is a big loss.
A Faction module outclasses a conventional module. A t2 gun outclass's a t1 gun. A Officer BCU outclasses a cheap t1 BCU. Cost stops people pvping in fully navy fitted ships. Cost is a big factor in balance. Thats why the vast majority of eve does not use slave sets etc for pvping.
Back to point, these ships lack a real world pvp role. Thats the issue, not some fuel (extra range is welcomed though) --
Billion Isk Mission |
Bone
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.11 21:00:00 -
[39]
I actually find Navigating the BOps an issue. using in-game mechanics only and using the map its far too confusing. eg:
- Using 'jump to' lists All available cynogens, not just those in reach
- Using Capital navigation Menu lists all systems, not just those with a Gen or Active Cyno
- Using Map unflattened is confusing for directional understanding and flattened you lose the range sphere
So this means toggling to an external tool to try to navigate... nightmare tbh. And with the blended travel ability of BOp's and Jump freighters its even more of a 'stick to your known routes' handicap
Any way to get an ingame map toggle for Cap travel? or adjust what we have?
-Bone
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Waxau
Unus - Vir Exercitus
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Posted - 2008.07.11 21:13:00 -
[40]
Well seeing as how this is the 'hot-new BO thread', ill post stuff here in more depth:
Noah was right to prenerf them - The issue is that having known they were prenerfed, and that the older players would want a ship to keep them ingame, and keep them entertained etc...why was a KNOWN issue left so late in the day to be fixed. Good intentions or not...foresight was lacking. Sorry :P
Andrew is right with his points there - The range is too short to be of any tactical advantage - And the logistics needed for jumping makes them useless for the majority of 0.0 combat. Why spend 10 minutes preparing for a cyno jump, when you're only 3 jumps out? Combined with this is as he said...the fuel usage. A possible fix would be ofc, a seperate fuel bay - But what might make folks WANT to use these more, is maybe no fuel cost for jump portaling? Only capacitor? Who knows.
Personally, id prefer NOT to see haulers be the answer to the fuel cost answer. Those who trained capitals HAVE to work in teams, even to move. A battleship should not need that work, especially when us 'jump drive' folk already are tied down in that aspect. Heck, for a jump of sufficient decency, we'll need three characters/players present. One cyno (god forbid if we need more than one), one hauler, one black ops. Id prefer not to have to have such teamwork just to use my battleship, seeing as we have the other end of the spectrum (carriers/dreads etc) for that.
Finally - As i stated in my earlier post, there is no 'main issue' with black ops. Its the whole shebang. The scan res is nuked to hell and back due to the cloak, and for that reason, we have to fit a sensor booster, should we want to lock faster than a carrier. Fair enough you might say, but using my ship as an issue (and make no mistake..the Widow is the better of the four children).. I have to give up a mid slot to fit the sensor booster. To lock in a decent time, that means scan res. Which means no targetting range (which is already poor on black ops). Combiend with that is the fact that im an ECM boat. So i cost 600 mil, have no tank, and cant lock fast with my ECM, so will be jammed by a lesser ship such as a falcon. At which point, i become useless. Fair enough, those situations are avoidable to an extent, but the fact remains that the attributes of the ships do not match their role. Guerilla warfare ships. Yet cant hit 'fast and hard' because they have 1. Poor dps. And 2. Cant lock at any decent speed.
Oh - and then theres the last point of 'worse than t1 variations'. The Widow is relatively ok (minus the above) in comparison with the scorp. You dont lose much bar from ECM range (big deal, but bareable), and in exchange you get higher dps. Raven and Scorp in one is nice. But i see no real value in the Sin, or Panther, or Redeemer. And i try and spec as much as i can for these ships in knowledge.
So - Yeah... Thanks for the confirmation on you're working on it...but please whatever you do, dont think that list encompases all the issues.
Ps - Warping whilst cloaked is viable! Dont let the whiners dictate how you balance the game :D
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HotSeat
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.12 00:07:00 -
[41]
I am the only person in PL, or anyone we fought so far, to use a black ops on a regular basis in PVP combat (Using Serena Greyskull, about 100 kills), so I have more experience then most with this class.
What has been suggested in the topic, more fuel, jump to cov-ops cyno, increase jump distance, is without question needed, however the issue of range needs to be addressed.
The current ship bonus makes most black ops effective in combat only at close range, with the exception of the Widow (which I fly), and let's face it, people don't want to use 700M ships up close. Even the Widow suffers at range, because it has jamming bonus's that are only effective at short range.
BS are effective at distance, anyone stupid enough to set them for close range will get ****d by HAC's.... and as such Black op's should have fits / bonus that allows them to stay with the BS fleet.
The Widow is a great ship, but all my other Black ops stay in the hanger, and need additional bonus's
Otherwise reduce there costs, so other people can afford to use / loose them in up close combat.
Sov 4 is nothing compared to the Power of the Grief !! |
Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.07.12 03:37:00 -
[42]
You make some rather good points there... I specifically like the one about teamwork. I feel you are right, you should never need 3 players to take full advantage of your ship. Maybe two (carrier + cyno), but three is just way too out there.
I say this: drastically reduce fuel use, or use an alternative. Waxau mentions cap as an alternative, which isnt a bad idea... But I also go as far as this: Remove the second player. I dont need a cyno character to make full use of my paladin, so why my redeemer? Allow black ops to jump to any system within range, given they have the fuel. Make them appear in a random spot 1au from the sun or something.
These two improvements would make players love the blackops ship: They could jump into a system, execute their plan (killing of a target, whatever), and gtfo quickly, without the need to have another player there to light the cyno each time.
Then again, who am i to speak, I dont fly them (but waxau does :D ), I just wish I can (50 days left \o/ )
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Taizu Lilith
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.12 07:12:00 -
[43]
I think that this is an important first step. I suspect that they will still be weak afterwards... as they are weak defensively and offensively and very expensive.
Also a fan of Transport Ship being able to be jumped (give it cloaking ability also) like a Stealth Bomber.
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Tyler Rainez
Are Cee Emm
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Posted - 2008.07.12 16:37:00 -
[44]
I only have two things in this world, my word and my balls and I don't break'em for nobody! -- Tony Montana |
Ma Talune
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force Logistics
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Posted - 2008.07.12 17:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Threv Echandari Edited by: Threv Echandari on 10/07/2008 17:06:01
Originally by: Bane Glorious
To expand on this part: with the loot recollection issue, I recommended that Deep Space Transports (e.g. Impel, Mastodon, etc.) be able to use the covert jump bridge specifically, and not Blockade Runners. Deep Space Transports are generally underused and Blockade Runners don't really need any more help when it comes to evading people. Wasn't originally my idea, though.
Agreed This would give those ships a role much like the KC-135 Tanker in use today by many militaries.
Yup always thought we needed more logistics support in the hualer sense... carries are just to expensive and general for this - e.i. to little space (I'd say 100K or so exclusive fuel) but with too muhc offencive power.. also we need nerf so they don't end up to be the new JF - else that needs a boost (It needed from day one anyway for that price) -----------
We are the specialists! We are the backbone! We will provide for war on all fronts! Death to Amarr; long live the Minmatar people.
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.07.13 02:03:00 -
[46]
I've been working on a ship designed to work behind enemy lines against larger numbers. Anyone serious about wanting to use black ops and work as a covert strike force, please read my proposal for a new ship based on the high damage BC hulls for hurting entrenched enemies. After reading what you all have to say, I believe these ships are very suited to each other.
Combined with the recons being very adept anti-support ships, I believe there's definite potential for these ships to work together and keep the defenders on their toes without bringing new challenges to sovereignty.
I've heard of a CCP test for appropriateness that goes, "Can it happen in real life?" Can ninjas fly around on rooftops and evade attacks through use of shadows while raining down subtle tools of quick death on the guards? When the guards are protecting against traditional attacks, yes. I hope this ship class to evolve into that role.
m(._.)m
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.13 04:07:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lord WarATron What is their intended function? I have yet to see a single pvper actually define how to use a black ops even if it could jump further (which is no bad thing).
Look beyond 0.0 and you'll see a use. As a low-sec pirate, I'm really looking forward to a working jump bridge. One of the biggest problems in low-sec PvP is actually getting a fight in the first place. Gangs are usually small enough that a few recons jumping in can turn a hopeless loss into an effortless win, instead of just getting ignored in a 150 man blob. The problem is your opponents are going to be reluctant to commit to a fight with those recon pilots in local and/or on scan. Putting them on the other side of a black ops jump bridge gives a false impression of your strength, and lets you lure the target into a fight they'd otherwise avoid.
And yes, nano gangs are nice, but two points:
1) Nano gangs can't hide very well. Sure, they're nice if you can get a fight, but they're much less useful when your targets won't leave the gate/station. Everyone knows a gang of Vagabonds and Ishtars is going to be a nasty opponent, and that tends to scare away targets.
2) With a black ops, you can jump nano ships of your own in. Black ops get much better if you can bridge in a couple nano-Rapiers, and this is what the fuel bay solution is supposed to fix.
Another potential use is bridging in a support fleet for capitals. Dropping a couple carriers un-supported is a good way to lose a lot of ISK. Dropping a couple carriers with some Falcons and nano-Rapiers is a good way to get some killmails.
Of course the cloaking ability is almost completely useless, I'll concede that much. But the jump bridge is a powerful tool for those of us who don't have a POS bridge network and a dozen titans on standby.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.07.14 18:21:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/07/2008 19:19:46
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Sometimes its better to work in small steps rather than big leaps at once. THey'll have to have one covert ops or recon ahead in order to open the cyno.
A Stealth Bomber is best used for an alpha strike when the person is already distracted. If you stay to shoot more than twice your most likely dead.
THe problem from CCPs viewpoint is that if they make it the equal of a t1 Battleship even, then the defender will have little to no chance. It is better to boost in small ways first and see how it affects it rather than a large boost at once.
For large fleets, mid gangs, small gangs and even solo pvp, these ships are pretty useless. Playing the "T2 bs cannot be better than t1" card is not strictuly true. A Cerberus outclasses a carcarel. A Zealot outclasses a Omen.
Loosing a omen is pretty much profit. Loosing a Zealot is a small loss. Loosing a Equivalent of a uninsured carrier (black ops) is a big loss.
A Faction module outclasses a conventional module. A t2 gun outclass's a t1 gun. A Officer BCU outclasses a cheap t1 BCU. Cost stops people pvping in fully navy fitted ships. Cost is a big factor in balance. Thats why the vast majority of eve does not use slave sets etc for pvping.
Back to point, these ships lack a real world pvp role. Small Nanoship gangs are far superior to someone using a black ops. Thats the issue, not some fuel (extra range is welcomed though)
I agree with WarAtron, blackops are so seriously underpowered that they are pretty much useless. The whole cynoing is a gimmick, which is mostly useless as the ship itself is not up to par. I have been in only 1 operation where we cynoed something like 20 stealthbombers onto a target with 3 Black Ops. With the price of blackops being so high and insurance so low, I don't understand why they can't be much better ships.
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Hitachi Morimoto
Synthetic Light Mining Corps.
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Posted - 2008.07.14 19:15:00 -
[49]
We need to be able to activate the covert cynos and covert jump bridges in a system with a Cyno Jammer. Leave the jump harmonics as they are: only covert ops, recon/force recon, stealth b, and black ops can use them, and boom. 20 stealth bombers with bombs take out the cyno jammer, the force recon activates a regular cyno field, and the rest of the fleet warps in with a titan.
That's what they are made for, aren't they?
oh, and yes to the fuel bay.
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Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.14 20:31:00 -
[50]
Playing it safe by pre-nerfing is one thing, however making the the ship contrary to its namesake is another. I suppose its full lethality works in lowsec. I haven't seen many there though. Empire nullifies its jump capabilities, but then you can't jump in empire either.
As to the ultimate ship: Dps carriers do what 50 - 100 % damage if not more than a black ops ship maybe? Then again carriers are support ships really. Dreadnaughts are primarily POS killers and cap killers. Titans are not in danger of loosing their place. So I can't see black ops displacing cap ships from their roles. Would battleships be reduced in use? I suspect no in general. Price is still such a factor. Defenders still have those annoying jump bridges anyways. At the cost of half a carrier, I can't see the fear it being the ultimate ship in terms of use or power.
Let them go in cynojammed systems among other things.
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Gaogan
Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.07.14 20:40:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Hitachi Morimoto We need to be able to activate the covert cynos and covert jump bridges in a system with a Cyno Jammer. Leave the jump harmonics as they are: only covert ops, recon/force recon, stealth b, and black ops can use them, and boom. 20 stealth bombers with bombs take out the cyno jammer, the force recon activates a regular cyno field, and the rest of the fleet warps in with a titan.
That's what they are made for, aren't they?
oh, and yes to the fuel bay.
LOL... it would take at least 2,500 bombs to disable a cyno jammer. That would cost 25 billion isk, and take 20 bombers like 2 hours to fire, and of course, they can't carry that many either.
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Wannabehero
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.07.14 21:39:00 -
[52]
I apologize if this topic has come up before. I remember reading something along these lines months and months ago, but I don't remember the thread or if the idea existed in this current form.
Make the Blockade Runner class Transport ship a member of the covert-ops family. Do not give it the ability to fit the Covert-Ops cloak, but allow it to jump with Black-Ops ships.
Would fix the cargo and fuel issues. --
Don't harsh my mellow |
Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.14 22:51:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
There function was to strike into enemy space with small commando raids, something they can't do right now due to constraints of jump range, fuel and ammunition reserves.
Small Commando raids? Define "Commando Raids" in eve.
And in what way is a black ops BS superior to a nano gang for that purpose?
Nerf Nanos?
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Manfred Rickenbocker
The Elliance Delta.Green
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Posted - 2008.07.14 23:27:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 14/07/2008 23:37:51
Originally by: Lord WarATron
The Fundamental issues with black ops is that you got a Droneship, a EW boat, a Laserboat that lacks cap to MWD out of a large bubble etc. Its too spread a random mix that its best to redesign these ships with a pvp role in mind and not some theoretical stuff that sounds good on paper but in reality nobody will use.
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Black ops issues: -Resists: It's a T2 ship, where are my T2 resists? -Cloak: BO gets a bonus no targetting delay due to cloaking, but the Improved Cloak give me a delay in scan res. So wtf is that? -Cloak2: Can we haz COCD? BO has the stats of a Force recon yet not the cloak -Fitting: More grid/cpu please -2ly Jump range? Come on... -Give me tank or ewar or something, it has no role... -Can I portal in a useful ship, a hictor/interceptor anything.
Originally by: Felysta Sandorn
I'd say the following improvements should be looked at:
1) Seperate the Cargo and Fuel Bay for all jump ships including jump freighters and capitals, plus add a fuel bay for recon ships in order for them to carry liquid ozone (exactly enough ozone for two cynos at cynosural field generation 5). The cyno generator on these ships is currently epicly underused, and this would be a good addition.
2) Allow covert cynos to be dropped in cyno-jammed systems for real use of a Black Ops BS.
3) Give the ships bonusses to their race's recon ships, combined with reducing the number of guns, and adding a 100% bonus, to the damage to allow for easier fitting.
These! I posted a thread a while back discussing this. The problem with BlackOps is they get combat bonuses, but no advantage in combat (weaker tank, etc.) and the only ship with any real combat viability is the Widow since it can jam the heck out of targets and (potentially) escape which is what this thing should be doing with a weaker tank. Sin agility bonus? Redeemer tracking bonus? Panther speed bonus? Seriously wtf... (well, Panther I guess is OK, but doesn't compare to the Widow's jamming) If they arent going to be gifted with a covops cloak so they can move around stealthily (which is reasonable) they need to be given the ability to break locks or immobilize opponents and skedaddle out of the fight. Even with an EWar bonus, its pretty easy to balance these ships' utility relative to their recons. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Gewurtztraminer
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Posted - 2008.07.15 05:42:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/07/2008 10:54:05
Originally by: Mecinia Lua The ability to jump into a system and hit soft targets without necessarily having to contend with the gatecamps in between. (Cynojammers I still believe should block them :) )
Jump to what - is the enemy going to open you a cyno? What is a "Soft target"? I am not trying to be defficult here, I am pointing out the fact that these ships are useless for raiding roles. If CCP called these kung-fu ships, then people would still be like "OMG, its the best beause it has the word kung fu in it, so we can kung fu our enemies". Its like Stealth Bombers, there are people today who think Stealth Bombers are the best simply because they somehow think it has real life connection.
My friend, I have done many solo and "commando" raids. Such raids rely upon speed. If you are not fast, the mark will see you in local and warp out or dock up. Or even logoff before being agressed or call for backup. Your commando raids are actualy what current nanogangs or cloaking nanogangs do. They can charge in commando style, kill people fast and run back to safety.
If you genuinly beleive that a Black Ops pilot will somehow send a recon or cov ops to destination then you may as well send a nanogang though. If all that happens with these ships is extra Fuel, then all people are going to do is use them as cheap jumpdrive haulers insted of pvp.
And pvp is the point of these things.
I have to agree. Adressing the fuel definciencies of the ship without addressing it's ungodly cost and mediocre performance is not a way to fix this class of ship. Give these ships the ability to use COC's.
Otherwise they're not worth the training time.
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NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.07.15 21:47:00 -
[56]
Edited by: NanDe YaNen on 15/07/2008 21:52:23
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/07/2008 10:54:05
Originally by: Mecinia Lua The ability to jump into a system and hit soft targets without necessarily having to contend with the gatecamps in between. (Cynojammers I still believe should block them :) )
Jump to what - is the enemy going to open you a cyno? What is a "Soft target"? I am not trying to be defficult here, I am pointing out the fact that these ships are useless for raiding roles. If CCP called these kung-fu ships, then people would still be like "OMG, its the best beause it has the word kung fu in it, so we can kung fu our enemies". Its like Stealth Bombers, there are people today who think Stealth Bombers are the best simply because they somehow think it has real life connection.
My friend, I have done many solo and "commando" raids. Such raids rely upon speed. If you are not fast, the mark will see you in local and warp out or dock up. Or even logoff before being agressed or call for backup. Your commando raids are actualy what current nanogangs or cloaking nanogangs do. They can charge in commando style, kill people fast and run back to safety.
If you genuinly beleive that a Black Ops pilot will somehow send a recon or cov ops to destination then you may as well send a nanogang though. If all that happens with these ships is extra Fuel, then all people are going to do is use them as cheap jumpdrive haulers insted of pvp.
And pvp is the point of these things.
Sometimes its better to work in small steps rather than big leaps at once. THey'll have to have one covert ops or recon ahead in order to open the cyno.
A Stealth Bomber is best used for an alpha strike when the person is already distracted. If you stay to shoot more than twice your most likely dead.
THe problem from CCPs viewpoint is that if they make it the equal of a t1 Battleship even, then the defender will have little to no chance. It is better to boost in small ways first and see how it affects it rather than a large boost at once.
A lot of good points. I especially like the references to the fact that the only real good hit-and-run ships now are nano's, which can't really engage against large sniper based fleets. I've found a way to fix the issues making it impossible to buff the SB without making an overpowered ship.
Here's how to do a close-range, high-alpha ship that is able to hit and run but doesn't become the new nano and doesn't have unnecessary tank/fleet/sniper roles.
Tactical Strike T2 BC -- Guerrilla Adaptation of High Damage BC Hulls
Stats are probably in an overpowered state, but just focus on how decoy probes can really change tanking behavior and provide escape capability without creating an overpowered nano-menace because of its high firepower.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.07.15 23:10:00 -
[57]
please turn the Sin into a sentry drone specialist ship. I do not care about jump drive and the fule stuff, because that's what capitals are for.
I just want a sentry drone specialised ship with long drone control range and sentry drone optimal bonus ... (on top of the regular Domi bonuses). --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.16 05:16:00 -
[58]
Covert ops cloaks are not acceptable, at least until stealth bombers get a covops cloak. Bombers are even more useless than black ops right now, a black ops at least has the jump bridge ability to make it worth using, while the only reason to ever fly a bomber over a recon is the lower mass for use with black ops portals.
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The Monk
Gallente Shinra
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Posted - 2008.07.18 20:03:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Lance Fighter
But I also go as far as this: Remove the second player. I dont need a cyno character to make full use of my paladin, so why my redeemer? Allow black ops to jump to any system within range, given they have the fuel. Make them appear in a random spot 1au from the sun or something.
I'm loving this idea, but set it so you need a covert cyno to use the portal to jump your friends. ----------------------- ╔╤╗╒╕╔╕║║/ ║│║╘╛║╘╝║\ ----------------------- *ShinRa Founder* |
Cosy
Gallente Porandor
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Posted - 2008.07.18 21:14:00 -
[60]
BO was "designed" to make something behind enemy lines just give them the ability to port a squad in any system(eve if have cynojammer) that means 10 players in non-capital ship
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Any complaints can be directed towards our Music Director
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Waxau
Unus - Vir Exercitus
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Posted - 2008.07.18 22:14:00 -
[61]
A copy-paste from my post on a Ships/Mod thread:
Right: Time to do this i think:
Black Ops Proposals:
1. Allow Cov Ops Cloaks. - Nukes the speed bonus (has no real role), so goes base speed. - Removes the Scan Res problems that have been experienced - Gives Black Ops a true 'guerilla warfare' stealth apeal - DOESNT make them overpowered: A force recon, that has the movement of a BS = easy to catch when organised
2. All Black Ops to have their roles to be changed to their Recon variants: - Widow : ECM Strength, ECM Range, Same BS Bonus (Missile velocity + Rof) - Sin : Scramble Range, Sensor Damp effectiveness, Same BS Bonus (drone damage/hp, blaster damage) - Panther : Web Range/effectiveness, target painting effectiveness, Same BS bonus (large proj rof and damage) - Redeemer : Nos/neut Range (NOTE! NOT NOS AMOUNT!), Tracking Disrupting effectiveness, Same Bs Bonus (cap use reduction, turret rof)
Purpose of these changes: Force Recons are somewhat balanced to a greater extent imo.
The Falcon might be somewhat overpowered, and thus a battleship variant is again, a bit too strong. But for such a highly spec'd and expensive ship, i personally believe it should be a bit better than a 70 mil falcon:P (Damage ability).
The Panther bonus i believe is balanced, due to the ability to act like a normal BS, but with uberstrong webs, gives it the bonus of speed (out of their web range) along with damage. Gives it a nice little combo above the rapier).
The Sin is somewhat underpowered in the most part, due to the damps not being that fantastic. However, the flip side is, an 80km scramble range. Who needs tacklers when you have a BS that can do it from 80km off eh? Snipe with sentries, highs/mods as drone mods...perfect imo. Damps play a part for those not sensorboosted.
The Redeemer some might as about. The reason ive suggested range rather than amount, is of the current Pilgrim crisis. The ship is seen as underpowered, due to the bonuses. The bonus of range is very useful, as it stops 'counter-neuting' along with the other close range issues/nesessities, such as tank (14km neut range = web range = death for speed tankers) along with overall tackling issues. Replacing the pilgrim's bonus with range instead of neut/nos amount would be on the road to fixing it. Likewise would be benifitial to the redeemer. Scenario here would be low slot tank, neuts in high, tracking disruptors in low. Helps the rest of the crew if getting shot at, and the redeemer can always tank.
On the topic of tank: I also propose Black Ops gain a tad bit of tank. Nothing major, but something a bit better than 'cruiser' status (which, lets be fair...it is). No actual numbers, or thoughts on this - Other than, id like to be able to see my Widow atleast stay above 60% shields, when a drake launches a single volley at me :P
Finally, Jump drives - We NEED to have more range, a fuel bay, AND personally, some other 'extra' for the jump bridge. As of right now, the jump bridge is rather limited. As is the jump range. My proposed change is that of (as others have suggedted) allow black ops to 'jump' to a sun of a system. By doing so, it gives an easy opportunity for folks to restrict black ops movement (laying a bubble at a sun for example), yet adds a role to Black Ops. Combined with that, it gives a Jump-drive ship the reduced need for a 'second character' scenario, where you always have to alt tab, just to play.
Further to improve this, i believe Cov Ops Cynos should work in Cyno-jammed systems. This would then allow folks to jump portal covert ships behind enemy lines, in complete secrecy (as to location). This is still however possible without a Cyno (Via the Sun), however for organised groups, the latter is far more risky.
I have no doubt that what ive said is overpowered, unbalanced, and so on. However, from where im sitting, there a major holes in the black ops atm. We need to start somewhere :P
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cianide pro
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Posted - 2008.07.19 07:49:00 -
[62]
As the are main problems have be posted already the jump rang, fuel, cargo bay and the bad lock times I seen some interesting ideas to boost this ship to be more interesting and to have a role.
For example star jumping, not sure if this is the right name but I guess most will understand what I mean. Th ability to jump 1 system and jump to a proximity of a star in the next door system would open loads of options that would make this ship class interesting, though its potential of being exploited is big when there aren't any restriction.
1 startjump uses 95% cap and this starjump mod can be activated only once every hour ( or so ), so you cant really escape losing fights by star jumping out and you cant use it to travel trough hostile systems by jumping trough them all unseen and untouched.
The BO starjumps to next system, he opens a cov ops cyno so the second BO can jump up the black ops gang.
Cov ops cloak on a BO would make this ship to powerful in my opinion. With a fuel/range adjustment and an better locktime this ship class will be a lot better and then with a starjump option it will get a good role also.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.19 10:51:00 -
[63]
How about changes along these lines?
They are both if compared to the roles recons have, combat variants, not force/combat, so instead of one being ewar and cloak, and the other ewar and dps (as is the case with recons): one can do the racial ewar, one can do the racial damage, and both can covops cloak.
To balance this they retain most of their current weaknesses:
1)they have low sensor resolution, so that they cannot solo - need a covert tackler of some form to actually kill something. 2)they have low HP, so lend themselves poorly to tanking 3)they have low numbers of weapon hardpoints, as now, so you cannot choose to fit say 7 turrets or 7 launchers, but are limited as now to 5.
This way you have a new and different way of distinguishing between the 2 variants (because they are both actually combat variants), and both variants retain the wetwork capabilities granted by the covops cloak (if they don't have it they are by no means covert operations ships, if every time you want to move you are visible, then you are not a behind the lines ship (unless you are nanoed up the wazoo but that is another matter).
eg: Widow (ewar version): jam strength/range bonuses for BS skill, covops cloak cpu bonus and missile damage/rof (pick 1) bonus on BO skill (note damage bonus is on the BO skill - reduces dps from all but the most hardcore of pilots, and even at 5, damage dealing ability is lower than combat version, due to only 1 weapon bonus)
Widow (combat version): missile rof/velocity/damage on BS skill (pick 2), then covops cloak cpu bonus and jam strength bonus on BO skill (again at BO 5 the ships overlap to a degree - jam strength is lower unless BO 5, and even then range is lower to differentiate them)
This would be a good way of generating 2 flavours of black ops ships I think.
I think fuel bay and jump range increases and ability to either jump to stars or jump into cynojammed systems should also be added to black ops functionality, though someone had a nice idea of using a deep space transport (name defines which t2 indy can go) as the jumpable fuel bay for a black ops gang.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.19 11:00:00 -
[64]
redeemer (ewar): neut range and tracking disruptor effectiveness on BS skill, damage/rof (pick 1) and covops cloak cpu reduction on BO skill
redeemer (combat): laser damage/rof/optimal/tracking (pick 2) on BS skill, tracking disruptor effectiveness and covops cloak cpu reduction on BO skill (no neut range bonus on this one or the other one would never be used)
panther (ewar): rof and webrange bonus (enough to give it 20km with a t2 web, so as not to tread on rapiers feet) on BS skill, velocity and covops cloak cpu reduction on BO skill.
panther (combat): rof and velocity bonus on BS skill, damage and covops cloak cpu reduction on BO skill.
sin (ewar): damp range and damp strength on BS skill, drone damage and covops cloak cpu reduction on BO skill.
sin (combat): drone damage and sentry drone optimal on BS skill, damp range and covops cloak cpu reduction on BO skill.
Just some rough ideas for the other racial BO.
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waristina
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.19 21:34:00 -
[65]
I must admit that BOP's need a serious looking into as they stand. Several good ideas above that I like, starting with: 1. Dedicated fuel bays, increased jump range, ability to jump into cyno-jammed systems (all in conjunction with a portal being lit for you). Lastly, being able to use a jump portal without having a second character (only make it a random/star jump into the system and based on cap? rather than fuel). 2. Need to base the BOP's on there respective recon conterparts as suggested in above posts to give them a defined role. 3. As most people have said above these ships are supposed to be geurilla warfare types, so in that respect I don't like the idea of them having great tanks. They should be in and out quickly hitting as hard and fast as they have the ability. Taking into account no.3, when Stealth Bombers are used in conjuntion with the above ships with there new abilities then you will have a decent dps. But one way or another these ships do need a serious overhaul and not the softly, softly approach some are adventing in this thread. If all you do is change a small amount then your still not addressing the problem with the ship being under-powered and undefined in it's true role. my two-penneth....
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Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.07.23 00:04:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Kai Zion on 23/07/2008 00:04:29 I really love the idea of Black Ops and despite all the issues surrounding them I'm training for one nonetheless (I like to buck the trend ).
There really is a need for a good look at them and all the issues raised here, not just the ones listed in the original discussion summary.
It's simply "not Eve" when you have something that doesn't perform any role.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.07.23 01:53:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
The Covert Ops Transport should have 3 Hi Slots (no turret or launcher hardpoints)...primarily to allow a salvager, tractor beam and cover ops cloak. Mid and Low slots should be probably 2 or 3. 2 rig slots. Cargo capacity about 1/2 of the current blockade runner. handling on par with a blockade runner.
This would be a good role for a dedicated salvage vessel. 8 high slots (no hardpoints) for tractors/salvagers/cloak. Insanely high sig res to compensate for the reduction caused by the nerf (otherwise will never be able to target a wreck). A high-resistance tank and decent speed & cargo (3000 m/3 base).
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Shadi Dee
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Posted - 2008.07.23 11:01:00 -
[68]
I'd love BOs to be able to use cynos into jammed sistems but make cyno visible, it's a cynojammed sistem afterall.
Jumping to the sun in any sistem in range is unrealistic.. or any variant not involving prior cyno.
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cianide pro
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Posted - 2008.07.23 16:05:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Shadi Dee I'd love BOs to be able to use cynos into jammed sistems but make cyno visible, it's a cynojammed sistem afterall.
Jumping to the sun in any sistem in range is unrealistic.. or any variant not involving prior cyno.
covert cyno should be able so that a small cov op gang can be brought in.
starjumping is an interesting idea that will open a range of new tactics fore this ship class, specially that it will work without another player
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.07.28 07:26:00 -
[70]
ah cool iw as looking for this post.. nice to see that things are noted.,. any eta on which we can test improvements on the test server ??
www.garia.net |
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.07.28 08:57:00 -
[71]
Quote: Andrew (CSM Jade Constantine) noted that the range of the drive and the presence of cynojammers made the jumpdrive capability virtually useless. Another problem is the limited amount of fuel that can be carried.
True. As it is now, there are only a few places where the black op can jump from lowsec and into 0.0. And when you are finally in 0.0 you have burned so much fuel getting there that there`s not much you can use it for. But then again, not a big issue since most of the sytems where targets are hiding are cynojammed
Quote: Noah (CCP) commented that a Fuel Bay can be added, so that fuel no longer takes up cargo space, or that specialized haulers could perhaps be used to haul the loot back or bring in supplies. CCP will also look at the issue with cynojammers. Jump range might be looked into but is of a lower concern, otherwise Black Ops ships might become too competitive with capital ships.
Fuel bay is the way to go I think...
Adding a second ship to fix flaws on a current ship is just wrong. Why would anyone use normal haulers when all that will be needed are BO and jumphaulers and you can move your stuff without any risk.... Already have jumpbridges, carriers, jumpfreighters and so on. Also adding such a ship you are opening a whole can of worms. Covert jumping in a bunch of haulers with towers.
Also when CCP had a live devblog there was a CCP dev who was concerned giving black op bigger cargo bay cause it would be exploitet as a covert cargojumper, reason for a seperate fuelbay...
And now you suggesting a covert jumphauler?
A must: Seperate fuelbay Jump to covert cynos in cynojammed systems Longer jumprange Fix that scan res!!!
Nice to get: Slightly better resists or some more HP Cov ops cloak, but then again, that could make it overpowered, and if the tradeoff would be loosing damage then NO! Already doing small damage.
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Moizo
Abh Empire Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.07.28 18:40:00 -
[72]
I believe adding functionality to the Deep Space Transports is a good idea, as far as my experience goes (1 Black Ops op) the range isn't really the problem.
Black Ops in the real world represent something equal to the Men In Black movie, noone knows about it. (excluding aliens etc.)
Making the black ops able to use Covert Ops Cloaking devices can achieve such a status. There has been a post on Full overhaul of their Bonusses, which i think is partially OK, but if you give Black ops such bonusses, whats left for the recons. Firepower and limited EW seems like the way to go, tank should be minimal as all recons have it. (Compared to capability's of HAC/HIC)
Keep it up IMO, we aren't there yet.
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ddred
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:28:00 -
[73]
Name: Widow Hull: Scorpion Class Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
Developer: Ishukone
Most of the recent designs off their assembly line have provided for a combination that the Ishukone name is becoming known for: great long-range capabilities and shield systems unmatched anywhere else..
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level and 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range per level
Black Ops Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM target jammer strength and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: Jump Drive is Immune to Electronic Warfare
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators and covert jump portal generators.
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Name: Redeemer Hull: Armageddon Class Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
Developer: Viziam
Viziam ships are quite possibly the most durable ships money can buy. Their armor is second to none and that, combined with superior shields, makes them hard nuts to crack. Of course this does mean they are rather slow and possess somewhat more limited weapons and electronics options.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in large energy turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to large energy turret rate of fire per level
Black Ops Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: Jump Drive is Immune to Electronic Warfare
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators and covert jump portal generators.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Panther Hull: Typhoon Class Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
Developer: Thukker Mix
The Thukkers generally favor speed and offensive power over defensive capability. While many of them could be said to lack technological innovation, Thukker Mix vessels are invariably the swiftest and most agile of their kind.
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to large projectile turret damage per level
Black Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to velocity and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: Jump Drive is Immune to Electronic Warfare
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators and covert jump portal generators.
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ddred
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Posted - 2008.07.29 18:29:00 -
[74]
Name: Sin Hull: Dominix Class Role: Black Ops
Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines. With the use of a short-range jump drive and a portal generator, they are capable of making a special type of jump portal usable only by covert ops vessels. This enables them to stealthily plant reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory. For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
Developer: CreoDron
As the largest drone developer and manufacturer in space, CreoDron has a vested interest in drone carriers. While sacrificing relatively little in the way of defensive capability, the Sin can chew its way through surprisingly strong opponents - provided, of course, that the pilot uses top-of-the-line CreoDron drones.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per skill level
Black Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to agility and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: Jump Drive is Immune to Electronic Warfare
Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators and covert jump portal generators.
The jump drive immunity would allow it to jump into a cyno jammed system giving them the role of bringing down cyno jammers. Also making them the hit and run battleships if hey can jump out of a system in emergencies. They would only be held by interdictor bubbles and infinate points.
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Hottie McGee
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.07.31 20:10:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Hottie McGee on 31/07/2008 20:13:52 i don't think that black ops bs will EVER eclipse capitals ever in any category, and that right now they are just big expensive toys that need a big boost. the sin's bonus isn't useful, panthers is kinda funny and gimmicky, while the redeemer and widow remain most useful (in my opinion). giving the panther a range bonus, and the sin a rep amount bonus would make those ships more useful, but those are just a few quick ideas i came up with on the spot. the most glaring weakness as i see it is that the fuel bay is too small, as discussed, ships that emerge from being bridged are not cloaked (recons, stealth bombers, covops are all pretty fragile), and that ships that need to launch a covert cyno need cyno theory 5 (which isn't that big of a deal, but it is a pain to train).
edit: upon reading Waxau's post, i like his idea of giving the ships an EW bonus (but not as strong as the recon equivalent, maybe 2/3), and giving them a covops cloak capacity. they shouldn't replace recons, but they should also fit along their scheme.
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Jackal79
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:05:00 -
[76]
Give it the fuel bay.
I think they'll still another boost of some sort beyond that to make them viable.
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Sin Fae
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2008.08.01 03:03:00 -
[77]
Heck, just making the pilot not show up in local would boost this ship "Suicide Gank Someone Day"(prizes)
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Essque
Starlancers
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Posted - 2008.08.01 04:10:00 -
[78]
As many people pointed out, the fuel bay and range won't fix the issue. These ships need a complete overhaul. Covops cloak, recon bonuses and the ability to actually fit them in a meaningful way -- more PG/CPU. Better resists maybe too.
As they stand now they don't justify the costs.
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Haakelen
Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.08.01 08:38:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Essque As many people pointed out, the fuel bay and range won't fix the issue. These ships need a complete overhaul. Covops cloak, recon bonuses and the ability to actually fit them in a meaningful way -- more PG/CPU. Better resists maybe too.
As they stand now they don't justify the costs.
/Signed
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Karina Redstar
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:35:00 -
[80]
Signed. Lots of interesting ideas here.
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Betonela
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Posted - 2008.08.01 11:35:00 -
[81]
Supported
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SauI Tigh
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Posted - 2008.08.12 05:11:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Noah (CCP) indicated that CCP was aware that battleships with jumpdrives would become the ultimate ship, and to this end Black Ops ships were pre-nerfed.
Andrew (CSM Jade Constantine) noted that the range of the drive and the presence of cynojammers made the jumpdrive capability virtually useless. Another problem is the limited amount of fuel that can be carried.
Bane (CSM Bane Glorioius) added to this that due to the fuel taking up large amounts of cargo space, loot from successful operations often cannot be hauled back to friendly territory.
Noah (CCP) commented that a Fuel Bay can be added, so that fuel no longer takes up cargo space, or that specialized haulers could perhaps be used to haul the loot back or bring in supplies. CCP will also look at the issue with cynojammers. Jump range might be looked into but is of a lower concern, otherwise Black Ops ships might become too competitive with capital ships.
Please explain how black ops battleships can compete with capital ships in anything? For those of you don't have any experience with pos warfare it is impossible for black ops battleships to do ANYTHING at all to hostile poses, the guns would literally rip you apart as soon as they locked you. None of the ships you can jump bridge in can affect poses at all either they are just simply too expensive when the t1 varient can do the same job at 10% of the cost, and with the numbers of ships you need to attack poses the idea that Black Ops battleships can affect them at all is simply laughable.
Also for those of you with no pvp experience I would like to point out another thing, NO ONE wants a 500m isk tackler unless it can disengage at will (aka factioned out vagabonds and rapiers) otherwise the first time you tackle something and their buddies get their before yours you lose your ship. The risk v reward ratio is just way too low. The only way to justify using a ship that guarantees a 500m isk loss is if there is a very low chance of losing it per engagement and that means you have to be able to engage at range. Remember losing a black ops is equivalent to losing a carrier in isk value but it has 1/1000 of the hp.
I hope you guys get around to buffing them with the sept patch as they have been broken for 8 months already.
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Jenny' JoJo
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.12 09:10:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 12/08/2008 09:10:24
Originally by: SauI Tigh
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Noah (CCP) indicated that CCP was aware that battleships with jumpdrives would become the ultimate ship, and to this end Black Ops ships were pre-nerfed.
Andrew (CSM Jade Constantine) noted that the range of the drive and the presence of cynojammers made the jumpdrive capability virtually useless. Another problem is the limited amount of fuel that can be carried.
Bane (CSM Bane Glorioius) added to this that due to the fuel taking up large amounts of cargo space, loot from successful operations often cannot be hauled back to friendly territory.
Noah (CCP) commented that a Fuel Bay can be added, so that fuel no longer takes up cargo space, or that specialized haulers could perhaps be used to haul the loot back or bring in supplies. CCP will also look at the issue with cynojammers. Jump range might be looked into but is of a lower concern, otherwise Black Ops ships might become too competitive with capital ships.
Please explain how black ops battleships can compete with capital ships in anything? For those of you don't have any experience with pos warfare it is impossible for black ops battleships to do ANYTHING at all to hostile poses, the guns would literally rip you apart as soon as they locked you. None of the ships you can jump bridge in can affect poses at all either they are just simply too expensive when the t1 varient can do the same job at 10% of the cost, and with the numbers of ships you need to attack poses the idea that Black Ops battleships can affect them at all is simply laughable.
Also for those of you with no pvp experience I would like to point out another thing, NO ONE wants a 500m isk tackler unless it can disengage at will (aka factioned out vagabonds and rapiers) otherwise the first time you tackle something and their buddies get their before yours you lose your ship. The risk v reward ratio is just way too low. The only way to justify using a ship that guarantees a 500m isk loss is if there is a very low chance of losing it per engagement and that means you have to be able to engage at range. Remember losing a black ops is equivalent to losing a carrier in isk value but it has 1/1000 of the hp.
I hope you guys get around to buffing them with the sept patch as they have been broken for 8 months already.
A battleship using a POS portal is no more overpowered than a Black ops. Black ops plain suck
Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total) |
Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.08.12 10:25:00 -
[84]
Re: DST's using covert jump portals
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=845210
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.08.12 10:52:00 -
[85]
*) Jumping into cynojammed systems - make the cov cyno visible when lighted in cyno jammed system. *) Bridging deep space transports sounds good.
As far as their 'intended role' goes in my eyes it's logistical mostly. Meaning rapid pilot redeployment (bridging around nano covops and grabbing combat ships from end destination) and moving smaller amounts of high value cargo around in 'safe' way. Ability to bridge deep space transports would count as serious boost in that section.
For some bizarre reason most of them seem to have some 'combat' oriented bonuses also, but those are more like aftertought than their intended role as they are in most areas they can do far outclassed by better (and cheaper) alternatives.
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cianide pro
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Posted - 2008.08.12 11:22:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Carniflex *) Jumping into cynojammed systems - make the cov cyno visible when lighted in cyno jammed system. *) Bridging deep space transports sounds good.
As far as their 'intended role' goes in my eyes it's logistical mostly. Meaning rapid pilot redeployment (bridging around nano covops and grabbing combat ships from end destination) and moving smaller amounts of high value cargo around in 'safe' way. Ability to bridge deep space transports would count as serious boost in that section.
For some bizarre reason most of them seem to have some 'combat' oriented bonuses also, but those are more like aftertought than their intended role as they are in most areas they can do far outclassed by better (and cheaper) alternatives.
No, not another logistic class. Black ops should have good combat possibilities, they should be able to solo into a hostile system to cause trouble there.
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Zulfiqaar
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Posted - 2008.08.13 22:17:00 -
[87]
[Idea] Redesigning Black Ops - link to thread
i started a new thread for an idea i had... suggestions? |
SauI Tigh
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Posted - 2008.08.15 05:42:00 -
[88]
I just want to point out that CCP has a 95% chance of missing the fact that raising mass on all ships with the speed change is going to nerf black ops battleships even more by making the ridiculous fuel intensive jump bridge mod take even MORE fuel nerfing them even farther.
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Xanja
2H Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.15 08:27:00 -
[89]
I wish someone from CCP would comunicate what their thoughts are on the BO issues, but they've gone eerily stumm for quite a while now.
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Lusian
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Posted - 2008.08.15 20:42:00 -
[90]
Quote: Jump to what - is the enemy going to open you a cyno? What is a "Soft target"? I am not trying to be defficult here, I am pointing out the fact that these ships are useless for raiding roles. If CCP called these kung-fu ships, then people would still be like "OMG, its the best beause it has the word kung fu in it, so we can kung fu our enemies". Its like Stealth Bombers, there are people today who think Stealth Bombers are the best simply because they somehow think it has real life connection.
My friend, I have done many solo and "commando" raids. Such raids rely upon speed. If you are not fast, the mark will see you in local and warp out or dock up. Or even logoff before being agressed or call for backup. Your commando raids are actualy what current nanogangs or cloaking nanogangs do. They can charge in commando style, kill people fast and run back to safety.
If you genuinly beleive that a Black Ops pilot will somehow send a recon or cov ops to destination then you may as well send a nanogang though. If all that happens with these ships is extra Fuel, then all people are going to do is use them as cheap jumpdrive haulers insted of pvp.
And pvp is the point of these things.
I have to agree on that. A nano gang can do much better then your black ops gang, and you only need a prototype cloaking on the gang and they will be more affective then your black ops gang running around doing its dissaapear and reappear act. You havent changed anytning except make a battleship more expensive and giveing it a really cool name. A rapier and ships like it will see more action. If you make a black ops BS, It needs to be able to the kinds of things regular tech I BS can not do. A Recon is much cheaper and more depenable and can do a great deal more of then a blaock ops ahip can ever hope to do the way it is now. Because it can do everything a Recon can do. and the fact it has a BS Hull configuration makes it worth 800 Mill :\
I really expected more from something that wouls cost me 800 Million Isk. We already have a role for that and its called a recon. wich you can get for 80 Million isk or cheaper from your alliance most likely.
Try bending the role of a bs instead of giveing us a nerfed ship. recons can figt solo, why not the black ops ? And some extra turrets and plus all of its smaller recon counter parts abilities and thats wil definately be worth 800 mill Isk.
Or tyake them to a nouther extreem if they are not ment for pvp. because other ships with the same role are cheaper and can do it better.
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.08.16 10:34:00 -
[91]
nano gangs will die soon tough read the dev blogs ;) www.garia.net |
Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.16 15:38:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Garia666 nano gangs will die soon tough read the dev blogs ;)
The one where they nerfed speed or the one where they moved all changes to multiplicity for reworking?
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FireFoxx80
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.08.17 11:07:00 -
[93]
BlackOps shouldn't be a solo pwn-mobile.
I am all for boosting black-ops fuel-efficiency, jump range, and jump mechanics (cyno into jammed systems); but not their offensive/defensive capability. In my mind, the Black-Ops class is along the Logistics theme, hence why it can jump other ships in - let the force recons and stealth bombers do all the fighting.
Re: Deep Space Transports = solo transport-mobile (35k of cargo). Could the jump harmonics flag be introduced here? Make the DST's useful to bring along, but still require more fuel than other ships of the same mass. (increased cargohold offset by increased fuel usage).
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Uncle McScrooge
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Posted - 2008.08.18 19:53:00 -
[94]
About cargo - a cargo-maximized pilgrim (not that that ship can be used for much else nowadays) with 5 t2 expanded cargoholds and 2 t1 cargo rigs reaches 1400 m¦. While that isn't that terribly much (less than a spped optimized blockade runner and *far* less than a cargo optimized deep space) it is still plenty for fuel and possible loot. Unless you plan to steal a full POS base.
The problem I see with a deep space transports is that it can be used to carry a whole POS base with it and I am not sure if CCP wants the main use for black ops ships to establish surprise bases. Because thats what likely will happen if they can carry large amounts of equipment into hostile territory. |
Siigari Kitawa
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.08.22 23:47:00 -
[95]
I just got a Black Ops (Sin) and have been enjoying cloaking outside of stations just next to the undock point. When a target undocks I decloak, lock with 2 sensor boosters and blow him up, loot, dock and reset.
The Sin makes a great solo ship, and is pretty entertaining. Also you guys seem to be forgetting that you can reach a larger jump range with skills (By default you start with a 4.0 LY jump range) so 2.0 LY is acceptable. A 2.5 LY start would be great though of course.
As for fuel, I am not sure as to how jumping other ships through a jump bridge works so I can't make a statement on that. Anyone care to explain?
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Crimsonjade
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.08.23 01:35:00 -
[96]
The BO's were made to be a pvp ship/ pls for the love of all that is holy just make them into a pirate dream ship. whats the worst that can happen? they dont have the dps to stand up to a normal fleet, so they pretty much are a niche ship. unfortunatly CCP decided that people using them to jump 25 ly to go gang **** miners was a bad idea so we are now stuck with gate camp running ships.
you want to bring back the pvp into eve. These ships need to be put into combat and not have to bring a freighter along to do it( fuel wise)
"Noah (CCP) indicated that CCP was aware that battleships with jumpdrives would become the ultimate ship, and to this end Black Ops ships were pre-nerfed."
as they are now they are the Ultimate joke. they need 1. bonus set on skills to jump range. no more than 4-5 systems, but make them consume less fuel 2.t2 ship needs t2 resist. 3. cloak while warping
im a little onesided in my veiws as i want them for jumping past the dual mom camped system and make a beeline for where my target is mining, fleets dont need these and probaly wouldnt make great use of them unless they could go past a cyno jammer
but im sure a few pirates could come up with a few ideas about using them
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Sile Suirghiche
Gaidhlig Technology
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Posted - 2008.08.23 21:37:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Bane Glorious To expand on this part: with the loot recollection issue, I recommended that Deep Space Transports (e.g. Impel, Mastodon, etc.) be able to use the covert jump bridge specifically, and not Blockade Runners.
Absolutely!
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Javelin6
Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.08.23 22:19:00 -
[98]
Originally by: TZeer
A must: Seperate fuelbay Jump to covert cynos in cynojammed systems Longer jumprange Fix that scan res!!!
Nice to get: Slightly better resists or some more HP...
Do the above so, we can effectively do the below :
Originally by: Hitachi Morimoto We need to be able to activate the covert cynos and covert jump bridges in a system with a Cyno Jammer. Leave the jump harmonics as they are: only covert ops, recon/force recon, stealth b, and black ops can use them, and boom. 20 stealth bombers with bombs take out the cyno jammer, the force recon activates a regular cyno field, and the rest of the fleet warps in with a titan.
Now they will have purpose.
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.24 19:52:00 -
[99]
1. Give black ops bs cov op cloaks.
They can warp cloaked, but they actually lose speed. Whoopie (nano nerf will **** the panther anyway).
2. Give them crazy optimal range, but don't make them do much more damage than a t2 sniper.
This would be ideal for 0.0. Make it so they could safely engage from 200km+ (sentry drone sin, sniper panther/redeemer, and give the widow an even further jam range or possibly give it rohk bonuses instead of raven-like bonuses) giving them extra safety to mess with targets far away, but means little to nothing for pirates because lol npc stations.
This might actually make them useful for small black ops gangs. They bring something those gangs usually need (dps) and can engage from far away giving them a nice buffer to get away. They're also easier to move, especially in hostile areas where these are meant to be useful.
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EYEDOLL
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.08.25 15:05:00 -
[100]
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Silence iKillYouu
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.08.28 06:55:00 -
[101]
/signed.
Black Ops should become a lot more popular, as they could be such great fun factors, and are very underused and underestimated atm.
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.08.28 16:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Yorda 1. Give black ops bs cov op cloaks.
They can warp cloaked, but they actually lose speed. Whoopie (nano nerf will **** the panther anyway).
2. Give them crazy optimal range, but don't make them do much more damage than a t2 sniper.
This would be ideal for 0.0. Make it so they could safely engage from 200km+ (sentry drone sin, sniper panther/redeemer, and give the widow an even further jam range or possibly give it rohk bonuses instead of raven-like bonuses) giving them extra safety to mess with targets far away, but means little to nothing for pirates because lol npc stations.
This might actually make them useful for small black ops gangs. They bring something those gangs usually need (dps) and can engage from far away giving them a nice buffer to get away. They're also easier to move, especially in hostile areas where these are meant to be useful.
Agreeing 100% point for point. BO BS are expensive as hell, especially for roaming gangs. They need optimal far more than they need dps, especially since they can't warp cloaked.
From day 1 of thinking on the T2 Scorp I wanted it to be rails & ECM at range. It would even provide a thought-provoking tradeoff - BOTH would require noticeable cap. You can indefinitely sustain one, or the other, but not both unless you fit for it (Lose a mid with a cap booster, lose an ecm str mod with a damage mod, etc.). Give it 5 turrets.
The Redeemer should have just 7.5% optimal, and because of its 6 turrets it won't be dealing amazing dps, but it can fit more mods for it than the Widow making it more useful AND with pulse & scorch can get some good ranges with a fairly nice passive tank.
For the Panther I'm clueless, falloff is shit and unless you turn it into a Muninn knockoff (lol) it won't accomplish much after the nano nerf. I might go as far as to say give it the missile bonuses because large projectiles are just crap, but...yeah. I want to say move a mid to a low but I have little experience toying with the Panther's setups.
Replace the Sin's agility bonus (seriously what?) with a drone range bonus a la ishtar. However, leave the Sin with the shortest targeting range, so you either fit to use heavies at range with a slight tank or you fit to use sentries at longer range with less tank. I want to say move a mid to a low again but I have equally little experience with the Sin's setups.
And if you're going to leave them with 20% less base HP, give them better T2 resists for the love of god. Preferably in line with or better than the Marauders, but probably less than the cloaky recons. 40%/20% sounds good to me.
Also, spare room in drone bays!
Also also, Increase the fittings! Don't need more slots, just more fittings to actually use them (Not including Widow, which has plenty of fittings for ecm+whatever)
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.28 20:31:00 -
[103]
So less black-ops and more hauling-ops really.
It's got to be one thing or another, try to make it all things to all people and it'll end up either overpowered or uselessly broken stat-wise. Instead you could either:
Make it an Escort ship by removing the cloak bonuses, giving DST's access to the bridges, a fuel bay, increased jump range, and either a small fighter bay or logistics ship level remote reps but a maximum of only two targets.
Make it a Black-Ops ship by giving them all EW bonuses, covert ops cloaks, low DPS, the covert only jump bridge, a fuel bay, and increased jump range.
Make it a Rapid-Response ship, boost the DPS to standard BS levels, drop the cloak, give HAC's and deny Recons access to the bridges, add a fuel bay and increase the jump range.
- Their survivability will never be as high as a capital ship.
- Their flexibility will never be as high as a carrier ship.
- Their cost efficiency will never be as high as a t1 BS.
- Therefore they have to have "something" extra
A mini-carrier with cargo-logistics is unique and valuable on and off the battle-field.
A BS cov-ops is to Recons as the Marauder is to HAC's
A rapid-response ship is a poor excuse for a hot-dropping or fleet carrier but allows you to get support ships in fast when and where they are needed.
The theme is that t2 is the step up from t1 in either combat features or functionality, t3, 4 and 5 should probably be equal to but different to t2 providing greater variety for veterans. Therefore I see very little wrong with making t2 BS superior to t1 so long as it stops there and does not continue on up to t5. If this were the issue some make it out to be we'd see ECCM fitted overheating Marauders in fleets all over the place. If we ever do then the problem is more likely to be the economy than the ships.
What we don't need is a ship class that is pulled out for jumping haulers around and then shelved again. If that's what we really want then we need haulers with jump-drives.
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evilphoenix
3vil Industries Efferus Vehemens Inasnum Latrocinium
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Posted - 2008.08.29 13:54:00 -
[104]
Cov Ops Cloak? --------
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.09.02 16:34:00 -
[105]
Originally by: evilphoenix Cov Ops Cloak?
cov ops cloak for a Black OP? no it will be a solopwnmobile (most common whine)
Facts: BO is one of the most expensive sub capital ship in game (Marauder and same faction BS can compete in price but in general they are cheaper). BO requires more skill points then any sub capital ship in game. BO has less DPS than Tier 1 BS. BO has less tank than Tier 1 BS. BO is the most isk sink if get popped (insurance payout). BO has very limited cargobay (speaking about fuel and portal generator). Covercyno needs cynosural field theory @ lvl5 (rank 5 and no other benefit for this skill, not many ppl train this skill up to lvl5) Covertcyno doesn't work into a cynojammed system.
BO CANT FIT A COVERTOP CLOAK.
Why I should undock with my Widow?I cant compete with a tier 1 BS fitted for PvP. I can use a scorpion or a raven with t1 cloak to achieve better results in PvP with 1/10 ISK.
I dunno why CCP is so scared to un-nerf this ship, what kind of problem they see?
PS: dude you face! IÆm proud of my missing texture.
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cianide pro
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Posted - 2008.09.03 06:31:00 -
[106]
You cant compare marauders with black ops, as the first is a pure npc ship and the second a pure pvp ( or it should be )
What i would like to hear is a post from ccp or any other official answer on what changes we going to get and when, as I hoped that at least some changes would be applied on this patch.
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.09.03 16:08:00 -
[107]
I use my redeemer to safly jump shit from hi sec to low sec. the redeemer with all low expanded cargo`s II has more then 3k m3 cargo space.. ^^
atleast its saving me isk instead of costing..
www.garia.net |
venus divine
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Posted - 2008.09.03 16:39:00 -
[108]
i support this one!
Give black ops a decent role..
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Caztra Tor
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Posted - 2008.09.19 00:05:00 -
[109]
I don't see where there is anything in the patch notes, in testing, in development, or on the drawingboard for Black Ops. Amazing. But they will address it Soon (tm).
Slow as smoke offa cold shit!
/signed as far as previous suggestions.
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cianide pro
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Posted - 2008.09.19 14:07:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Caztra Tor I don't see where there is anything in the patch notes, in testing, in development, or on the drawingboard for Black Ops. Amazing. But they will address it Soon (tm).
Slow as smoke offa cold shit!
/signed as far as previous suggestions.
slow? slow you say? It aint moving, its frozen solid.
Guess that is the problem to be based on Iceland :(
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Vina
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:07:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Vina on 19/09/2008 21:11:51 you know honestly, the only thing black ops REALLY NEED is to be able to fit a covert ops cloak. that would be a huge boost just in and of itself. T2 resists would be nice but aren't needed. We really do need a fuel bay too, their cargo bay size limits them to about 4-5 jumps before refueling and maybe 3-4 jump bridges as well, and that only leaves you with enough space for about a day or 2 of pvp ammo. (I have about 3500 various missiles, enough fuel for 5 jumps, and 3 jump portals.)
Aside from that they are pretty good ships, stat wise.
my skills
my config
also making covert jump portals/cynos work in cyno-jammed systems SOUNDS like a good idea, but... it's kind of pointless really. since you need to get a covert op in the system in the first place to make the covert cyno, what's the point besides making a warp to spot for your fleet? which you an already do now anyway. I see no REAL point in this. Honestly I don't really see any point in covert jump portals except if you had an entire gang of only coverts/force recons. maybe if they added the ew frigies to this too it would be alright. or maybe just all frigates and force recons and logistics. I dunno, but something needs to be done about covert jump portals to make them actually useful. -----------------------------------
my opinion is my own. |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.09.20 10:24:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Vina Edited by: Vina on 19/09/2008 21:11:51 you know honestly, the only thing black ops REALLY NEED is to be able to fit a covert ops cloak. that would be a huge boost just in and of itself. T2 resists would be nice but aren't needed. We really do need a fuel bay too, their cargo bay size limits them to about 4-5 jumps before refueling and maybe 3-4 jump bridges as well, and that only leaves you with enough space for about a day or 2 of pvp ammo. (I have about 3500 various missiles, enough fuel for 5 jumps, and 3 jump portals.)
Agreed, though if they were given larger cargo bay/larger drone bay instead of seperate fuel bay I think it would be more interesting forcing a degree of compromise on fuel/ammo/cap boosters (ie, more uninjected setups that are only good in combat for a minute or so before they have to bug out and recharge, due to having more fuel/ammo instead) - These ships are (supposedly given espionage role description?) meant to stay behind enemy lines for a while, so they need space for spare ammo/spare drones/fuel, the covops cloak is needed because burning fuel to get about as the only way to remain off scanner till engagement is ridiculous.
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Hottie McGee
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.22 02:23:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Hottie McGee on 22/09/2008 02:23:13
Originally by: Vina Edited by: Vina on 19/09/2008 21:11:51 also making covert jump portals/cynos work in cyno-jammed systems SOUNDS like a good idea, but... it's kind of pointless really. since you need to get a covert op in the system in the first place to make the covert cyno, what's the point besides making a warp to spot for your fleet? which you an already do now anyway. I see no REAL point in this. Honestly I don't really see any point in covert jump portals except if you had an entire gang of only coverts/force recons. maybe if they added the ew frigies to this too it would be alright. or maybe just all frigates and force recons and logistics. I dunno, but something needs to be done about covert jump portals to make them actually useful.
the fact that people are roaming around systems apart from a fleet makes this really nice. jumping between systems and sneaking around being unreported is pretty nice. think covert for this. it's not to move fleets or anything, but to move small groups of ships around undetected. it's not just for getting around gatecamps.
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Xanja
2H Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.22 22:05:00 -
[114]
Cov Ops cloak ----------------- |
Reptar Dragon
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.09.23 00:17:00 -
[115]
Everyone thinks that Black Ops ships are fixed by a further jump capability or a fuel bay.
DOES NO ONE REALIZE that they are only cloakable, cyno-capable versions of their t2 variants? It's completely stupid to buy one of these ships unless you're just going to haul meaningless crap through low-sec/0.0.
Look at the Sin, is anyone actually going to use a 600mil ship with a shit tank and bad DPS as a bloody dominix with a nicer skin? Why doesn't it have a dampener or warp disruptor-related bonus like the arazu?
The Widow, damn that ship can JAM, but you're buying a ship that does the same damn job as a falcon and can't even warp cloaked. None in their right minds would actually try and fight with a widow. You can 8-slot tank a scorpion and use it to jam a lot easier, with insurance guarantee. PLUS YOU CAN JUMP BRIDGE FALCONS IN TO DO THE SAME JOB BETTER.
The Redeemer, energy turret tracking?! You've gotta be kidding me. Give it a neutralizer and nos range bonus on top of it's tracking bonus.
The panther. lmao lets buy a 600mil ship that is just a ******ed typhoon that goes 25% faster with max skills.
I thought CSMs were supposed to LISTEN to community suggestions? Having cyno-capable deep space transports adds an awesome dimension to the game, but it in NO WAY fixes black ops ships. These ships are less logical combat ships than even marauders, because at least those POS ships do massive amounts of DPS.
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Aggrod
Circle of Flames
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Posted - 2008.09.23 00:22:00 -
[116]
Have read the first page, don't have time to read the other 3.
Still, here is my idea, sorry if its been mentioned:-
New Ship Class - Tanker.
Ship would be same hull type as DST, but less slots. It would be modified to be able to jump along with the Jump Bridge, and would have a large Fuel bay. It should be unable to jett' fuel from its cargo, but should be able to "link" with a black ops, and by doing so fueling all jumps through that ships bridge, via its own fuel bay.
Hit points should be similar to a DST, but less PG/CPU and less slots.
The reason I don't think they should be able to Jett' cans is to avoid them bringing a lot of these ships to haul ammo/POS mods into enemy space. It should be able to cloak, but not have any bonus to it. Its cloaking ability should be just like a normal DST. ---------- I devise my own demise Here's to life-the life I'm losing |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.09.23 09:20:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Reptar Dragon Everyone thinks that Black Ops ships are fixed by a further jump capability or a fuel bay.
DOES NO ONE REALIZE that they are only cloakable, cyno-capable versions of their t2 variants? It's completely stupid to buy one of these ships unless you're just going to haul meaningless crap through low-sec/0.0.
Look at the Sin, is anyone actually going to use a 600mil ship with a shit tank and bad DPS as a bloody dominix with a nicer skin? Why doesn't it have a dampener or warp disruptor-related bonus like the arazu?
The Widow, damn that ship can JAM, but you're buying a ship that does the same damn job as a falcon and can't even warp cloaked. None in their right minds would actually try and fight with a widow. You can 8-slot tank a scorpion and use it to jam a lot easier, with insurance guarantee. PLUS YOU CAN JUMP BRIDGE FALCONS IN TO DO THE SAME JOB BETTER.
The Redeemer, energy turret tracking?! You've gotta be kidding me. Give it a neutralizer and nos range bonus on top of it's tracking bonus.
The panther. lmao lets buy a 600mil ship that is just a ******ed typhoon that goes 25% faster with max skills.
I thought CSMs were supposed to LISTEN to community suggestions? Having cyno-capable deep space transports adds an awesome dimension to the game, but it in NO WAY fixes black ops ships. These ships are less logical combat ships than even marauders, because at least those POS ships do massive amounts of DPS.
get this into your head: these are not frontline ships ... their DPS and tank is second to their logistic abilities ... otherqise you would create an overpowered cloaking ship that can jump long ranges ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Mr Laden
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Posted - 2008.09.23 09:35:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Mr Laden on 23/09/2008 09:35:32 Edited by: Mr Laden on 23/09/2008 09:35:23 Edited by: Mr Laden on 23/09/2008 09:35:06
signed
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ArmyOfMe
Pernicious Creed Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.09.23 11:36:00 -
[119]
ill support any and all buffs to black ops. simply speaking they cant get any worse then what they are atm
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
Sinistro
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Posted - 2008.09.24 05:16:00 -
[120]
Here we have a multi page tread like many other black op treads in different locations on this forum on how they bad and need to be boosted.
But the real question is........HOW COME IT TAKES SOOO LONG TO ALTER A SHIP CLASS BONUS/ROLE AFTER ITS HAS BEEN RELEASED PRE NERFED?????????
As soon a pre nerfed ship class comes in game and within weeks, months maybe even the reactions are that they, let simply say, suck then this should be changed ASAP.
Now we are way past those weeks, months and we dont even have any idea other then ccp is looking into it.
WHEN is what we want to hear and WHAT is the boost they will get is what we want to know.
It just takes too long.
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Drolus
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Posted - 2008.09.26 19:28:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Drolus on 26/09/2008 19:28:46 just bumping cause BO's really need some (Mac)loving'
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.09.28 12:34:00 -
[122]
any updates on when or what areas the BO class will be buffed?
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.09.29 07:03:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Sinistro Here we have a multi page tread like many other black op treads in different locations on this forum on how they bad and need to be boosted.
But the real question is........HOW COME IT TAKES SOOO LONG TO ALTER A SHIP CLASS BONUS/ROLE AFTER ITS HAS BEEN RELEASED PRE NERFED?????????
As soon a pre nerfed ship class comes in game and within weeks, months maybe even the reactions are that they, let simply say, suck then this should be changed ASAP.
Now we are way past those weeks, months and we dont even have any idea other then ccp is looking into it.
WHEN is what we want to hear and WHAT is the boost they will get is what we want to know.
It just takes too long.
well maybe the original intended state was found undesirdable by CCP and now they are out of ideas ? I think the BO class was added for impressive RP but fails to deliver (same as stealth bombers, great concept on paper, sounds very fun, but horrible implementation ingame). --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Vina
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.30 02:35:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Reptar Dragon Everyone thinks that Black Ops ships are fixed by a further jump capability or a fuel bay.
DOES NO ONE REALIZE that they are only cloakable, cyno-capable versions of their t2 variants? It's completely stupid to buy one of these ships unless you're just going to haul meaningless crap through low-sec/0.0.
Look at the Sin, is anyone actually going to use a 600mil ship with a shit tank and bad DPS as a bloody dominix with a nicer skin? Why doesn't it have a dampener or warp disruptor-related bonus like the arazu?
The Widow, damn that ship can JAM, but you're buying a ship that does the same damn job as a falcon and can't even warp cloaked. None in their right minds would actually try and fight with a widow. You can 8-slot tank a scorpion and use it to jam a lot easier, with insurance guarantee. PLUS YOU CAN JUMP BRIDGE FALCONS IN TO DO THE SAME JOB BETTER.
The Redeemer, energy turret tracking?! You've gotta be kidding me. Give it a neutralizer and nos range bonus on top of it's tracking bonus.
The panther. lmao lets buy a 600mil ship that is just a ******ed typhoon that goes 25% faster with max skills.
I thought CSMs were supposed to LISTEN to community suggestions? Having cyno-capable deep space transports adds an awesome dimension to the game, but it in NO WAY fixes black ops ships. These ships are less logical combat ships than even marauders, because at least those POS ships do massive amounts of DPS.
it is as you say with the exception of the widow, which is a worthy successor to the scorp. it can DPS, tank, and jam, cloak, and jump drive. however, all the other ships are simply tier 1 battleships with a jump drive. seriously, AGILITY BONUS? not damps??? wtf????? |
Blastil
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Posted - 2008.09.30 07:17:00 -
[125]
I would like to see the 'covert hauler' for sure. Fleet logistics make little sense in EVE, and you should be able to support a fleet deep in hostile territory with some kind of support/supply ship. Maybe one day soon we will see an end to blobbing..
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.30 08:52:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Vina it is as you say with the exception of the widow, which is a worthy successor to the scorp. it can DPS, tank, and jam, cloak, and jump drive. however, all the other ships are simply tier 1 battleships with a jump drive. seriously, AGILITY BONUS? not damps??? wtf?????
Actually, I'd argue that the Widow is the WORST black ops, since it's completely outperformed by the Falcons it can (in theory, with a fuel boost) jump. No matter how you fit the ship, you're either wasting the ECM bonus (with a missile gank fit), or wasting the missile bonuses (with an ECM fit, which can't even ECM properly). At least the other black ops bring some solid dps to the fight, I'd much rather bring a Redeemer than a worthless Widow. |
Vina
Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.01 01:56:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Vina it is as you say with the exception of the widow, which is a worthy successor to the scorp. it can DPS, tank, and jam, cloak, and jump drive. however, all the other ships are simply tier 1 battleships with a jump drive. seriously, AGILITY BONUS? not damps??? wtf?????
Actually, I'd argue that the Widow is the WORST black ops, since it's completely outperformed by the Falcons it can (in theory, with a fuel boost) jump. No matter how you fit the ship, you're either wasting the ECM bonus (with a missile gank fit), or wasting the missile bonuses (with an ECM fit, which can't even ECM properly). At least the other black ops bring some solid dps to the fight, I'd much rather bring a Redeemer than a worthless Widow.
what are you talking about? it jams just fine. the exact same as a falcon, with less range (but you don't need a falcons range in non-fleet battles, and who would bring a widow to a fleet battle?) -----------------------------------
my opinion is my own. |
Reptar Dragon
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.10.01 03:05:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
get this into your head: these are not frontline ships ... their DPS and tank is second to their logistic abilities ... otherqise you would create an overpowered cloaking ship that can jump long ranges ...
Get THIS into your head. A ship operating alone or in the presence of a very small covert gang needs MORE capabilities than their T1 variants, not less. These ships are not survivable behind enemy lines. And no, they can't jump long ranges, they actually jump very short ranges.
Black ops ships aren't logistics ships, so your point of their combat ability behind second to their logistics capabilities kind of just proves my point. C O M B AT SHIP.
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Etienne Merten
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Posted - 2008.10.04 07:50:00 -
[129]
The failure of CCP with the Black Ops class is obvious from the massive discontinuity of feedback...they need this, they need that. The only thing everyone agrees on is that, like Stealth Bombers, the class is worthless in game.
More depressing is the realization that Stealth Bombers still haven't been fixed, so why do we expect Black Ops to be?
The fact that a Black Ops requires someone to have trained cyno lvl 5 and to have snuck past a gate camp into a system that isn't cyno-jammed and is within the very limited range of the BO...wait, does that happen?...well..this ship,even with Covert Ops Cloak, a huge and separate fuel bay, an extended jump range and better stats than the T1 variants still requires support from other characters to do anything...
pre-nerf is one thing. please try things...it's not like you can't undo a change if the entire infrastructure of Eve falls apart due to the super-omgpwned-shipofchoice tips the balance of power.
by the way, why shouldn't a massively high-training required T2 BS be the ship of choice? A happy Boffin... |
White Ronin
Gallente NeuralCore LLP
|
Posted - 2008.10.05 01:18:00 -
[130]
While I also would like the BO to get a boost to their combat abilities I think people are taking this too seriously. Remember, many items (boats, cars, planes, cell phones, computers, ect...) are rushed to market before they are ready for release. Also remember that many are released with poor design and functionality. I speak from experience in that many pieces of equipment at my work are released after being designed by engineers yet no actual field personal being involved and they fail miserably. It happens. Now, I would like to see ccp improve the BO BUT release it from a different manufacturer with different features. This would be more realistic. But just cause the first release sucks (and dont get me wrong, it does truly suck) does not mean that it is the end of the world. As in the real world, sales would slump and plummet until a rework of the ship or a different company released a model with different attributes. But just remember that it just might turn into a covert hauler type role rather then the role that most of the community would prefer. The AF is a good example as are afterburners. Both have limited uses and both are not popular in many pvp situations. It happens. If ccp would release a design model that allowed players to exchange features on a ship to create truly unique craft so we could redesign it ourselves then that would be a leap in not only the pvp side but the manufacturing and research areas of the game. Till then we just have to realise that ccp might just write the BO off as a failed ship release and move on to more important game issues like lag, war dec mechanics, the sovereignty rules, adding more systems, or many other more critical areas of eve that really do have a larger impact then fixing the BO. Dont get me wrong, I would love to see a tier 2 ship based on the domi. Its just that honestly it is not as important to the enjoyment of eve by the majority of the playerbase. It is a ship for players who have been here a while. Anyway, just my 3 isk... --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. " |
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Dirtee Girl
Omega Enterprises 0mega Factor
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Posted - 2008.10.05 05:34:00 -
[131]
alot of people like to point to the jump bridging ability of the blackop as the defining charateristic of this and it'd intended implementation . IMHO i feel this is completely ridiculous . why would someone train the supportand required skills for a ship that use is sending other ships into combat. what fun is there in simply standing on the pier waving while oters go to war ? well it does have a combat ability ... well no it doesn't beacuse they are inferior to their t-1 cousins in combat . so what do you get for your considerable isk and time investment ...
1 a battle ship that has traded combat ability for jump drive ability which is rendered useless by game mechanics involving sovereignity and cynojammers
2 a battle ship that has a VERY limited jump bridging ability which is further limited by the issues in 1
3 a battle ship that in the end cannot compete directly with it's t-1 couterpart in use vs expense - in dps ( cept widow ) - and in overall survivability .
now look at tech2 ships in general
compare a recon to it's t-1 variant which is the better ship? compare a HAC to it's t-1 variant which is the better ship? command ships logistics ceptors ..... each of these classes has abilities far in excess of their t-1 variant hence their use despite the cost . now i have posted b4 with diferent ideas on what could be improved but simply even in it's current state if jumping into cyno jammed systems and covert ops cloaks were alowed i could forgive the loss of dammage and cost .
*
* |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.10.05 10:22:00 -
[132]
the meeting was 3 months ago....
is tux on this?
are there any plans to un-nerf black ops?
will there ever be?
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Col Callahan
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.05 23:14:00 -
[133]
Signed/ I support any direction that bring the Black Ops into line as a useful ship type for behind enemy lines hit and run engagements in small gangs of coverts, recons and stealth bombers. _
Clusters shut down, and then you stare at a black screen for 5 hours. |
Dead Soldier
Most Wanted INC
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Posted - 2008.10.06 11:01:00 -
[134]
Come on CCP, on CMS was said this had high priority but there is still nothing on the server (test or real). So hurry make these ships an bit better.
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Zathrus
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Posted - 2008.10.15 03:26:00 -
[135]
I have all the skills to fly it but have no reason to due to lack of a reason to use a ship that is not as good as a T-1 ship.
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.10.15 08:03:00 -
[136]
Did wrangler got fired? www.garia.net |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.15 08:21:00 -
[137]
I'm pretty sure we will see it before long. Sadly, that's just a rumor without backing.
However, there is coming up a major expansion inside a few months. I really hope we will see it in here. I see no reason why it shouldn't.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.10.23 13:55:00 -
[138]
Nice to see that CCP are looking after their Vet players, who have played and payed loally for years, by making sure the newest and most advanced ships are ballenced correctly - with constant detailed updates.
oh wait.
nvm.
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MonwrathDisortium
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.10.31 06:43:00 -
[139]
Edited by: MonwrathDisortium on 31/10/2008 06:47:20 Give me a fuel bay and the ability to use a cov-ops cloak and I will be happy with my sin. Give me some more powergrid along with it and I will be ecstatic.
Haulers that can be jump bridged are not the solution, although apparently that is what we are getting, I suppose I can sell it to someone with a trader alt who needs to move stuff to and from low sec safely.
Like we dont already have enough haulers in this game.
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Phoenix492
Orion Expeditions
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Posted - 2008.11.02 15:44:00 -
[140]
Firstly, these are Logistics Ships, and are not meant to be wtfsolopwned machines. Just like Recons, CovOps, Stealth Bombers. Remember one of the main purposes of titans? The ability to Jump bridge ships across distances? Well, this is Black Ops on a much bigger scale. Titans are not solowtfpwned machines. Yeah, they can DD, but catch one with his pants down (mainly after DD'ing) And thats pretty much minus 1 titan without any support.
But I digress..
The same points / Ideas keep coming in, over and over again, so i thought I would post EVERY point that I could find about how they could be changed. So, here they are:
1) These are LOGISTIC ships mainly. Hence slow targetting, low resists, jump bridge capability etc.
2) There was an idea of "Star-Drives". The Ability for Black Ops Battleships being able to jump to ANY system (to a random distance from the Star), without a Cyno needed. The advantages mean you can play solo, and the disadvantages mean that you COULD jump randomly into a hostile gang, maybe a hostile moon, who knows? IT's random. To stop this being abused, It would require 95% Cap to use, and would mean the ship couldn't move (but could active modules) for X amount of minutes, meaning that you could be scanned out, but could cloak / defend yourself.
3) Slow Targetting Times. But, remember this is really a logistic Ship.
4) No Tank. Its a T2 Ship, but has less than T1 Resists. If this is fixed, it could make it playable.
5) How about the ability to fit Gang mods instead of Turrets / Launchers?
6) the Ability to fit a COCD - On a CovOps Ship..makes Sense eh?
7) Dedicated Fuel Bays. But, if we get them, won't carriers etc want them too?
8) Increased Jump Range. This needs addressing. It takes alot of fuel to jump through ships, and it's a shame it's only a little range..
9) The Black Ops BAttleships need their Bonuses based on their Recon Bonuses. (Like the redeemer needing a Nos / Neut Bonus)
10) Jumping into Cyno-Jammed Systems. Even if this is the one and only boost, it would give the Black Op a role, and i think would shut up alot of moans. This would mean the covert Cyno Gen would need to operate in the Cyno Jammed System. To get around the "WTFPWN" look, maybe make Covert Cynos Visible in Cyon Jammed Systems?
11) Introducing the DST as being able to use Covert Cynoers / can use COCD? Not sure if this will solve the problems, just create more imho.
12) Removing Black Ops Pilots from Local. Well, local looks to be getting discussed in another thread, so read there for more info.
13) More PG/CPU for Black Op Ships, allowing more flexibility in fitting (making this maybe a stepping stone towards a carrier..Frontline it, logistics it etc)
14) People are worried (inluding CCP) that they will replace Cap Ships. This won't happen, as Their survivability will never be as high as a capital ship and Their flexibility will never be as high as a carrier ship
15) Larger cargobay/Drone Bay instead of a seperate Fuel Bay, would mean having to balance what you take with you, and wouldn't make them WTFSOLOPWNS.
Well, These aren't my Ideas, but YOURS. I have also reposted something i found interesting:
-BO is one of the most expensive sub capital ship in game (Marauder and same faction BS can compete in price but in general they are cheaper).
-BO requires more skill points then any sub capital ship in game.
-BO is the most isk sink if get popped (insurance payout).
-Covercyno needs cynosural field theory @ lvl5 (rank 5 and no other benefit for this skill, not many ppl train this skill up to lvl5)
We know CCP is looking at Black Ops in depth, but I for one would love to here about their plans. Anyone else? Blah. |
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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.11.02 19:25:00 -
[141]
Old post but still relevant.
Black ops need to be boosted for targeting range. They basically lost 20km or so from their t1 counterpart. Which is unusual compared to all other t2 ships who either kept same targeting range or got better.
Being allowed to covert cyno in highsec shouldnt be a bad idea tbh. ------------------------ Have you fed your slaves recently? -BRB Rens |
Hygelac
Interesting Times
|
Posted - 2008.11.03 17:57:00 -
[142]
Earlier on in this thread someone went a bit emo about how long it takes CCP to fix pre-nerfed ship classes. I'm feeling a little less rage on the subject but I do think the guy had a point.
I totally agree with CCPs pre-nerfing approach, having originally came from DAOC where we regularly saw that the new classes were overbalanced, I prefer CCP's approach.
However when you *know* that you're introducing something new and that it's function is intentionally limited, why not have a number of optional plans ready to go based on some guess work? The whole 6 month waiting period before people can really use new ships and mods is quite a painful wait at times.
Back on topic, the fuel bay is going to be nice and the additional ability of jumping Blockade runners through Covert Fields should help a lot on the logistics side of things.
I still don't think that this addresses the usability of the ship in actual combat though. If Black Ops are the DPS/Tanking members of the marauding guerrilla gang then some kind of bonuses towards that role would be nice.
They don't have to be solo death machines but a bit more in terms of Resists and DPS would encourage people to actively engage with these vessels. Right now I see this as more of an alt ship rather than something my main would be flying.
--- Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos |
NaMorham Santorin
Tech 1 Holdings Limited Tech Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2008.11.04 03:07:00 -
[143]
I think to make these useful you need 3 things.
1. A covert ops cloak,
2. Modify stealth bombers to give them a specialist role in taking down cyno jammers (take down does not have to mean destroy, just render inoperative). Make it a special module requiring an extra skill or two.
3. A short range detector for that module for pos'
This would give BOps a niche roll and would make them a ship to be guarded against. The idea is to give it a roll similar to the target marking that spec ops soldiers sometimes do these days, namely removing strategicly chosen defenses to create an opening for the actual combat units. The BO's sneak in (might need multiple to provide enough fuel for a longer jump), pop a covert cyno, a force recon and a dozen specially fitted stealth bombers come in and drop the cyno jammer, pop a normal cyno and the rest drop in.
The detector should provide some counter, when a covert cyno opens too close to the detector, it should unmask it, so there is a beacon for everyone in system. If you own the system and see one appear it means there is a good chance that if you do not stop the cyno jammer being taken down then bad things(tm) are coming soon.
As a secondary effect this might open up a bit more of 0.0 space to newer alliances since to be safe from a drop you would need to be able to monitor gates.
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Sinistro
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Posted - 2008.11.04 11:23:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Hygelac Earlier on in this thread someone went a bit emo about how long it takes CCP to fix pre-nerfed ship classes. I'm feeling a little less rage on the subject but I do think the guy had a point.
I totally agree with CCPs pre-nerfing approach, having originally came from DAOC where we regularly saw that the new classes were overbalanced, I prefer CCP's approach.
However when you *know* that you're introducing something new and that it's function is intentionally limited, why not have a number of optional plans ready to go based on some guess work? The whole 6 month waiting period before people can really use new ships and mods is quite a painful wait at times.
Back on topic, the fuel bay is going to be nice and the additional ability of jumping Blockade runners through Covert Fields should help a lot on the logistics side of things.
I still don't think that this addresses the usability of the ship in actual combat though. If Black Ops are the DPS/Tanking members of the marauding guerrilla gang then some kind of bonuses towards that role would be nice.
They don't have to be solo death machines but a bit more in terms of Resists and DPS would encourage people to actively engage with these vessels. Right now I see this as more of an alt ship rather than something my main would be flying.
its not emo its frustration on the point it takes soo long and why ccp does not give more reaction on multiple treads about this black ops needed fixing. ( this count in general also, ccp should react more in treads )
Now the coming fuel cargo change is a step in the right direction but we need a littler bit more then this small step to make this ship what it should be.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.11.04 11:49:00 -
[145]
not enough people with the patience, isk, skills and forum whining ability to boost the whine threads to a level where ccp will listen.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:02:00 -
[146]
Time to train BO from BS 4 and support skills 4 -> 2-3 months? (more?)
CCP designs and releases ships pre nerfed.
People with skills and isk buy and train BO and BO skill.
People wihtout tyrain and buy skills, save up for BO and BO skill (months)
Decent amount of people get in and start using BO (one month after release upto present)
People ALL agree that ship class neess to be unnerfed and tweaked.
how many months more must the people trained for these wait before they get fixed and or a real dev discussion thread is opened and closed with final stats and a patch release date set?
2 more month?
6 more months?
a year?
i have wasted (as im sure many others have) months of training and saving to be able ot use these, thats actual MONEY out of my pocket, invested in time for somthing that doesnt work at all. If ccp was a car dealership, and my pre orderd car didnt work - im guessing they would fix it.
this is extremly bad planning, bad implemtation and general poor attention to the most didicated players in the game who would have actually made use of these ships.
I know i cant get my SP back, i know ccp wont give me my isk back, im not about to stop playing (i have other ships to fly) but please for the love of god FIX the damned ships!!!
i feel like i should blame myself for going head on into a pre nerfed ship class, but seriously, how long should one have to wait?
//rant |
Rajere
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 10:50:00 -
[147]
Thumbs Down CCP please, for the love of god, do NOT make any of the changes suggested in this thread. Make a new class of ships which are gimpy logistic covert bridging ships with cov ops cloaks, no tanks, no dps, and 50% recon ewar bonuses, for all the people asking for that.
For Black Ops, please Add the seperate fuel bay, allow covert cyno's into cynojammed systems, increase the base stats a bit up closer to their t1 counterparts/give it T2 resists, give it a role bonus in addition to the 125% speed while cloaked, -20% Scan Res penalty/-20% cpu cost per level as well. Black Ops level 5 = 0 scan res penalty, 0 CPU cost from any cloak (you still can fit T2/faction/etc higher meta level cloaks to increase your speed while cloaked, but can fit any cloak without losing scan res or taking up all of your CPU).
Other than that, increase range to 3ly from 2ly? would be very happy with Blackops with these changes :) |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.11.20 09:13:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Rajere Black Ops level 5 = 0 scan res penalty, 0 CPU cost from any cloak
Awesome, you finally are onboard with Black ops receiving the cov ops cloak. Or maybe you don't know how cloaks work, whatever.
Trolling aside, I think that BO at least need the scan res bonus/fuel bay and immunity from cynojammers and a boost to jump range and stuff that Rajere mentioned. 3ly would be nice, but 2.5ly is better than nothing.
Also I retain the right to WANT a battleship sized force recon ship. CCP probably won't make the BO into one, but that doesn't mean I don't want to fly a huge typhier (typhoon + rapier) |
Thor I
LFC Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.11.21 10:23:00 -
[149]
IMO the key role of the BO so far is the portal gen. now: portalling 1 stupid hauler i used up 2k nitro iso, holding 2.6k nitro iso in totla + a few missiles in my cargo. that means the boat itself was not able to do the jump to the same cyno afterwards cos the BO itself would have used 900 nitro (JFC lvl 4 btw).
cant be true that u r not able to jump a single hauler + urself! how the hell should the BO be able to move small recon gangs around, which was announced to be their role? CCP wake up...
imo the usage of a ship jumping trhough a portal should be about the same ammount as if using a bridge (like around 25units for a cruiser; no cargoincrease, fuel bay, fuel bay mod needed)...?! though, ll gladly drop one launcher if there was to fit a fuel bay module for example, i dont fly a BO (widow) for DPS..
i like the idea of creating an additional role for the BO (cyno jammer takedown). imo the ship is pure support, but the main role still is the portal of which the fuel consumption is absolutely ridiculous!
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Asterisk Grat
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.11.26 16:46:00 -
[150]
for 500 mil ship I support giving black ops a fuel bay, T2 resistances, and slightly increasing it's jump range. Let's say to 3LY.
My comment on this jump range boost that it's not going to make black ops more competitive with capital ships with jump range of 5-6.5 LY, but only more usable and useful.
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JAFM
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:50:00 -
[151]
Is ANY of this stuff going to make it into Apocrypha?
Its been a loooong time since there has been any word on this. |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:58:00 -
[152]
no |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:59:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Omber Zombie no
Just as I expected, not even worth expressing frustrations.
When will the current CCP game design team will retire? it seems there is some kind of dev rotation schedule. At least, we used to have some good devs before the current ones took over
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:07:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Omber Zombie no
Just as I expected, not even worth expressing frustrations.
When will the current CCP game design team will retire? it seems there is some kind of dev rotation schedule. At least, we used to have some good devs before the current ones took over
Quit crying about it. The expansion is huge but not related to ship balance. Unless your willing to take over CCP, you have no reason to complain about it.
--Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:16:00 -
[155]
they have more than enough people to work on 2 things at a time. And they had months to add the fuel bays - at least. Sorry, your excuse doesn't fly in real business world
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:48:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Omber Zombie no
Just as I expected, not even worth expressing frustrations.
When will the current CCP game design team will retire? it seems there is some kind of dev rotation schedule. At least, we used to have some good devs before the current ones took over
Quit crying about it. The expansion is huge but not related to ship balance. Unless your willing to take over CCP, you have no reason to complain about it.
--Isaac
Actually, and I say this as someone who is no friend of Ephemeron, but he is correct.
Remember when Amarr were hoplessly broken? For 2 years, people mentioned what was wrong and nothing happened. Then, a Amarr whiner single handedly created a massive Amarr campaign informing the general eve public (approx 86% of eve was non-amarr at the time) of exactly what was wrong with Amarr and with thousands of posts in a short period of time, CCP relised that Amarr had a issue and then fixed it.
Aparently it turned out that CCP was balancing Amarr vs other races with damage modules etc, but forgot that Amarr lacked infinite CPU/Grid to fit said modules in a non-comedy setup. Even Laser Thorax's performed better than laser Amarr cruisers in every single way. Added to this was things like EANM effecting changes to Real world setups etc etc, but that a long story and you can read up on eve search about it.
So what is the lesson? If you dont tell people something is wrong, then you can be waiting for 2 years with nothing happening and no recognition of the issue. If any company does something wrong, how on earth can they fix it if they do not know? How can someone make something a priority if people do not express the issues regarding it?
As it stands, Black Ops is hediously broken and, in my opinion, needs to be taken to the drawing board and compleatly redone as a small gang ship baised on real world PvP. All the last CSM crew did was to use black ops to boost a transport ship.
Ephemeron, if you ever run for CSM, then you got my vote, since I guess most of the previous CSM have probebly never solo/small gang pvped unless its "Market PvP" or "Mining PvP, gotta mine em all!".
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:06:00 -
[157]
Even if I had the time, I wouldn't make a good CSM candidate. I don't really enjoy having long meetings and talking in circles about some simple issue. Also, it doesn't help that I lost confidence in CCP's performance on issues of game design.
Honestly, I just want to see the current game design team to be replaced, so we can have a fresh new start. Maybe we can get lucky with devs that actually care and don't suffer from "Goumindong" logic syndrome.
sorry for being overly negative lately
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.12 02:10:00 -
[158]
since this post is actually related to the issue being raised - the CSM did bring it up with CCP. It is being looked at, it's just not coming in Apocrypha.
AS for "they can work on 2 different things at the same time" you do realise how big this next expansion is right? They had 11 different teams working on things, they just couldn't fit the blackops review into this expansion in a meaningful way, so it was bumped. ----------------------
My Blog |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:41:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Omber Zombie since this post is actually related to the issue being raised - the CSM did bring it up with CCP. It is being looked at, it's just not coming in Apocrypha.
AS for "they can work on 2 different things at the same time" you do realise how big this next expansion is right? They had 11 different teams working on things, they just couldn't fit the blackops review into this expansion in a meaningful way, so it was bumped.
Alright, lets say you are right.
Do you know how long it would take an experienced game dev to add fuel bays? 1 day Sure, it may require 3 days of testing. Lets say that if all the stopped working on expansion pack and focused just on fixing game balance issues - the simple fixes, nothing major.
They could do most of it in 1 week. They could delay release of expansion by 1 week and put a lot of fixes to game balance that so many people want. It's easy. But they are not going to, it would be against their spirit to let the player be happy.
I suppose when CCP was a small company, they had the spirit of going against mainstream, they had balls. But now that spirit is probably buried under layers of bureaucracy - even if there are devs who want to make good game changes, they become incapable, just cogs in profit making machine. At least - this scenario gives some excuse for their bad judgment. I'd hate to think they actually do this on purpose.
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.12 06:18:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 12/02/2009 06:19:46
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Omber Zombie since this post is actually related to the issue being raised - the CSM did bring it up with CCP. It is being looked at, it's just not coming in Apocrypha.
AS for "they can work on 2 different things at the same time" you do realise how big this next expansion is right? They had 11 different teams working on things, they just couldn't fit the blackops review into this expansion in a meaningful way, so it was bumped.
Alright, lets say you are right.
Do you know how long it would take an experienced game dev to add fuel bays? 1 day Sure, it may require 3 days of testing. Lets say that if all the stopped working on expansion pack and focused just on fixing game balance issues - the simple fixes, nothing major.
They could do most of it in 1 week. They could delay release of expansion by 1 week and put a lot of fixes to game balance that so many people want. It's easy. But they are not going to, it would be against their spirit to let the player be happy.
I suppose when CCP was a small company, they had the spirit of going against mainstream, they had balls. But now that spirit is probably buried under layers of bureaucracy - even if there are devs who want to make good game changes, they become incapable, just cogs in profit making machine. At least - this scenario gives some excuse for their bad judgment. I'd hate to think they actually do this on purpose.
I seriously doubt it will take "3 days" to test, develop and get the fuel bay out. There is numerous balancing issues, the code writing needed to do it, and make sure fuel bays won't break the code on the game and that they will actually be recognized in the game. Also, you have to do numerous debugging checks as well.
As an amateur code writer, I know for a fact that the fuel bay idea is not simple. Even from a coding aspect.
If it took only three days to introduce fuel bays then the next expansion would have been out already.
Since it hasn't.....I'm more inclined that this idea is not so simple. Especially since they've released it on the test server and I heard there are several problems with features in the expansion. So what? Are they incompetent after all these months? Or are they human....
--Isaac
P.S. CCP used to be more cavalier with their ideas in the beginning. The only problem is, it ran them into numerous problems. Neither way of doing things is perfect. But at this point, CCP feels this is the best way. I'd suggest next time you comment about game issues, don't attack the company. Its pointless and makes your argument look weak because your attacking the company, not the issue at hand. Isaac's Haul*Mart
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.12 18:28:00 -
[161]
I wasn't so negative about the company before the Quantum Rise patch. I can't forgive them for going through with that horrible nerf. They showed total lack of understanding the core game balance issues, and did not respect the EVE spirit.
It's like if you took Mona Lisa painting and decided that it needs some improvement, so you paint over it to modify the face to look prettier. Sure, to you and your beer buddies it may look like a great improvement, but to people who understand art it would be horrific travesty.
I know CCP used to be great, but they changed. They still make great progress with technology, but their game design side is only diminishing. More content != better game
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:04:00 -
[162]
These things need more than just a fuel bay, they need a reason to be used in a gang. Hac's and recons have specific areas which they're better than cruisers (e-war or usually range/damage) but there's really no reason to use a black ops bs outside of jump bridging DST's.
They need something, I personally like increased range, tracking, or the ability to bridge any ship smaller than a BS. ---- 06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore 06:36 11Thol we're not no.1 06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best 06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans 06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:19:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/02/2009 08:21:15
Originally by: Ephemeron I wasn't so negative about the company before the Quantum Rise patch. I can't forgive them for going through with that horrible nerf. They showed total lack of understanding the core game balance issues, and did not respect the EVE spirit.
It's like if you took Mona Lisa painting and decided that it needs some improvement, so you paint over it to modify the face to look prettier. Sure, to you and your beer buddies it may look like a great improvement, but to people who understand art it would be horrific travesty.
I know CCP used to be great, but they changed. They still make great progress with technology, but their game design side is only diminishing. More content != better game
Basically what the CSM guy was saying is that CCP cannot be arsed with making Black Ops a Priority vs the other exciting things they are doing. Given that there is possibly only 10 Serious Black Ops players in the whole game, I doubt they would see it high on the list of items anyway.
However it does take time to plan things. Even small changes might need to go through various teams etc in order to make it to implementation. So while the coding time might be 20 mins, their could days or weeks of red tape and ballancing changes. Coding is usually the smallest part of things like balance changes.
So Ephemeron, the question you should be asking is not 'it wont take long to fix' but rather "How far has CCP moved along resolving the issue's with black ops? Are we still at the drawing board?"
Basically, CCP have relised that Black Ops is a mostly waste of crap. They do not even have a common design to go around them - The entire black ops system was created by somebody who took Tier 1 BS and just added a jump drive. This is apparent due to the complete random nature of black ops - a EW ship, A Droanboat, A jumpdrive Typhoon and a Laser boat that lacks the cap to MWD out of a bubble, but is commonly used as a Jumpdrive Hauler. Its just a bunch of random ships with random roles.
So you see Ephemeron, the entire Black Ops line was possibly developed by some guy who probebly never solo/small gang pvp'ed and probebly took 5 minutes in balancing the ships by just re-using the stock tier 1 BS. CCP really need to scrap the entire Black Ops concept and go back to the drawing board and re-do them ground up as PvP ship. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:33:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Basically what the CSM guy was saying
I have a name you know
Quote: CCP really need to scrap the entire Black Ops concept and go back to the drawing board and re-do them ground up as PvP ship.
i'm not sure about scrapping them, but a serious look about what role they are supposed to fulfil and adjusting them based on that is definitely needed. That is however not a small task, so while it isn't high on the queue of things to do, it is on the queue.
At this point there is no reason for CSM to re-raise the issue as CCP already know about it, we can however keep bugging CCP to look at them and as a Sin owner, I do want them fixed, so I do point out their lack of use when I can. ----------------------
My Blog |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.13 20:43:00 -
[165]
Quote: i'm not sure about scrapping them, but a serious look about what role they are supposed to fulfil and adjusting them based on that is definitely needed. That is however not a small task, so while it isn't high on the queue of things to do, it is on the queue.
The concept of a battleship with cloaking bonus is a good one. It's something new and it does go well with roaming pvp in hostile territory.
I would prefer to see some improvements in their ability to fit tank and gank. In a way, they would be an alternative to marauders.
I don't think CCP would go that way tho, they don't have clarity of vision nor the will to make bold moves in game design. Granted, they are good at pushing tech
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van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:27:00 -
[166]
Edited by: van Uber on 14/02/2009 10:28:00
Originally by: Omber Zombie so while it isn't high on the queue of things to do, it is on the queue.
This is what I do not get. Why is it that whenever a introduced feature appears to be broken, it is placed in the queue as opposed to on top of the queue, where a broken, introduced feature belong.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:59:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/02/2009 13:00:33
Originally by: Omber Zombie i'm not sure about scrapping them,
As they stand, they are the eve equivalant of a broken leg. All that has been suggested so far is basically putting a band aid on a broken leg, as its not really solving the issue, rather, its transfering the the problem.
The Sacriledge was redone three times before it became useable. Each time they compleatly scrapped it and remade the ship. The Apoc was the worst battleship in eve until they compleatly sc****d its role and remade it with fleet pvp in mind.
Nightmare is another almost broken ship that had the "clean sheet of paper" treatment. Now a nightmare is no longer a expensive low quality typhoon, but rather a intresting and useful shield tanking laser ship.
Lots of concepts get updated with modern eve play or changes in real world pvp. The Black ops concept would have worked in 2004, but its 2009 now and the type of role for black ops just does not exist anymore.
Basically, what I am saying is forget what we know previously about black ops and start again with a clean sheet of paper and redesign these ships with todays styles of pvp in mind.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.14 17:06:00 -
[168]
Originally by: van Uber
This is what I do not get. Why is it that whenever a introduced feature appears to be broken, it is placed in the queue as opposed to on top of the queue, where a broken, introduced feature belong.
I can only explain from my perspective of what we've been told, but even with 11 different teams working on things, each team has a speciality. If the 'broken item' falls into field 'x' and the team that handles field 'x' is working on something else, it's moved down the queue. From that point on, Lead Game Designers decide what is next in the queue and that is what that team handles next. So, with that in mind, CSM did bring up the issue to put a higher priority of fixing pre-nerfed (which black ops was) things into mandatory review in the pipeline. As you can see from the minutes, CCP generally agreed with that idea and we're hoping it gets implemented ASAP.
As for waratron - i think we're generally agreeing that blackops need to be redone, it's just a question of how far they need to delve into what's 'wrong' with them that is adding to the holdup. Completely scrapping them and re-building from the ground up will take time, whereas trying to find a simple solution to making them work might be less time consuming. ----------------------
My Blog |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 00:20:00 -
[169]
I see the main ish as BOps as jumpers are difficult to set up, ranged far too short to be really useful, and need the fuel bay or fuel reduction bonus to prevent BOps users from tearing their own hair out.
As in-gang ships, they have less tank and less firepower than T1 BS but are 5-7 times more expensive. Losing one is like losing 10+ recons, so why uncloak, or better why jump it to the combat zone in the first place.
The result is they are marginalized out of a combat role and become a 500mil cov ops jump bridge, and for the reasons mentioned above not a very good one. ---
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Forever Alone
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Posted - 2009.02.15 05:56:00 -
[170]
yea ideally they would offer better Tank & Gank than the t1 counter parts. Lets face it, price does matter.
Alternatively, CCP could try figure out a way to reduce price of 1 of those into 200 mil range. That would also be considered a boost
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Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:17:00 -
[171]
Needs boost. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Mankell Grenze
GK inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:33:00 -
[172]
boost and fuel bay.
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:43:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde I see the main ish as BOps as jumpers are difficult to set up, ranged far too short to be really useful, and need the fuel bay or fuel reduction bonus to prevent BOps users from tearing their own hair out.
As in-gang ships, they have less tank and less firepower than T1 BS but are 5-7 times more expensive. Losing one is like losing 10+ recons, so why uncloak, or better why jump it to the combat zone in the first place.
The result is they are marginalized out of a combat role and become a 500mil cov ops jump bridge, and for the reasons mentioned above not a very good one.
We PVP with them pretty much every day, whenever there is an opportunity we use them, putting them at risk, hotdropping gangs, ganking carebears & ratters, etc, and despite how often we field them, We only lose on average one blackops battleship every 2 months (Lost one in august 08, October 08, December 08, February 09). That was until last week when we lost 2 in one week :( which puts us at 5 lost so far.
So we've lost 5 blackops total in the 6 months - 1 year that our members have been actively pvping with them. We've lost 2.5 bil in BO Hulls, though during that time we've gotten hundreds of kills & collected tens of billions of ISK worth of loot from carebear/missioners wrecks so we're still firmly in the black isk wise. Losing a BOs sucks sure, but it's nothing compared to replacing dreads (which we have also lost 5) lost to lame old POS warfare, which is what we did before blackops. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S |
KTOZ
Evil Plankton The Church.
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:15:00 -
[174]
Spended to long time to lvl 5 black ops with 2ndary skills; but now i m really dissapointed about how useless and expensive they are.
Give them life so it worth to buy/fly/lose them.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.02.19 02:36:00 -
[175]
I'm quite amused that a Sin appears less capable than a Dominix. The flavour text talks about it being a capable drone platform, yet the Sin has lower HP, lower targetting range, and less power grid than the Dominix. But it has an extra mid slot so you can fit a sensor booster to reclaim the lost targetting range, and 25m3 more drone bay so you can carry 1 spare sentry drone :)
For all the sacrifices, you can fit a covert ops cloaking device, and get a higher agility so you can do a 180 and enter warp half a second faster. I don't imagine that I'll be trying to cloak my way through a bubbled gatecamp in a battleship any time soon though :\
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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.19 03:51:00 -
[176]
Covert cynos should work in cynojammed systems.
Black Ops battleships, recons, covert ops, and the other ships that can use the covert jump bridge are either too expensive or too weak to take down a cyno jammer, even in numbers. This means that their strategic value isn't all that high. This ability isn't going to make them replace a large battleship fleet as the premier way to begin assaults on sov3 systems.
What this does mean is that the purpose of inserting a small team of cloaking ships into a secure enemy system is to infiltrate behind enemy lines and just cause chaos and disruption.
This is both A.) awesome and b.) actually what the black ops was intended to do. This combined with the range boost and the fuel bay would give black ops a niche without making it stupid overpowered
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The ChurchWarden
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Posted - 2009.02.19 22:28:00 -
[177]
I think that once w-space comes up that Blackops may get a boost. Since it was confirmed on a CCP panel during fanfest that cynoing in ships is intended. Of course they are still horribly broken but with the creation w-space looming we can presume that blobs will be unlikely an that smaller gang pvp can become more common. With this in mind why not gear the Black Ops ship to be more in line with the new w-space theme perhaps tweaking them to be design by various empires to explore W-space?
Just a thought... still please fix them :P
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