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Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.23 20:49:00 -
[1]
Lot’s of Falcon threads kicking about – I could go into why I don’t think the falcon isn't out of balance in terms of pitting it against its combat cousin the Rook but I don’t want to get sidetracked this early. I, for one, don’t think the falcon should be changed as massively as people say, since this will make it ineffective and not worthwhile flying. But I also agree that having one ship completely remove multiple ships from a fight indefinitely is overpowered. Then again I don’t think ECM should be nerfed (again) – as I like its current incarnation (‘cept when I want a multispec of doom for my tempest). So I’m going to take the typical CCP approach to fixing an issue, and change something else completely unrelated to the subject matter and hope it works. Drone buff. Gallente have been getting kicked in the nuts recently with a lot of changes (yet still manage to stay on top for sheer destructive prowess), and drone changes play no small part in this with scoop-deploy shield recharges being removed. However I think giving drones more options in combat (this has been changed slightly with focus fire and assist being added) could partly help the issue. If drones where smarter and - for example – could have an E-War defence option where-in you can specifically tell them to target ships focussing E-War against you, this may help tip the balance of battles and perhaps even give the rook a new lease of life. Situation 1: Blasterthron Vs Blasterthron + falcon. Just now – Falcon perma-jams one Mega and the other one picks it apart. With drone changes – Falcon gets a fleet of drones pounding towards it and is either forced to warp or stay and die. The megathron it’s jamming will still likely die dude to being intermittently jammed as the falcon returns and re-warps when being attacked, but the out numbered party can still fight back. Situation 2: 2 BS + falcon Vs 3 BS Just now - Just now this is simply a case of how long the Falcon team takes to kill the BS one at a time. With drone changes - a fleet of drones from the BS would swarm the falcon and force a warp and the fight would be back on level terms. Again intermittent jam’s levelling off the fight. With the rook having similar jamming powers, but more firepower – it would be able to start killing drones by itself and stay in the fight longer, making it preferable for straight up engagements with the flacon still being king of deep 0.0 ops.
There are obvious problems with this: For example drone control range generally around 45km for most ships. But if drones could be changed into strictly offensive/defensive modes this may get around it. If you send and attack command it obides by drone control ranges, but if it's a defensive retaliation then it has infinite range (meaning light drones will reach targets at long range faster and get more damage in while larger drones slowly move in - making drone choice more selective depening on an engagement ranges rather than drone bay size/bandwidth).
As a final point, I'm all for a buff to ECCM (Since it will give new life to my tempests 5th mid), but developing the drone side of eve is an idea I like alot. Changing them from simply being pure DPS machines with the occasional half-assed attempt at E-War, into being a thoroughly complete weapons system requiring micro management on the level of standard gun/missiles boats. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
|
Posted - 2008.06.23 21:14:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Maeltstome on 23/06/2008 21:16:02 fleets aren't an issue, they are very potent in small gangs though - up to 5on5 falcons are seriously dangerous.
EDIT*
Did you even read the post? I agree'd falcons where fine, i dont want ECM to be reduced or falcons, but adding new features to the game is soemthign worth discussing. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.24 08:15:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Maeltstome on 24/06/2008 08:16:20
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi Retorts
Well said, i was on my way to wrok wen you posted this and it saved me alot of typing - i'll reply to some other stuff too.
Projected ECCM: Needs to be stacked, so "ya!" for encouraging blobbing.
Falcon has to tank: It sits 140km from the battle and can jam anything fast enough to get close easily. If you want ECM and tank, fly a scorp. People seem to forget, the effectivness of other recons is usually between 30-40 km, and a falcon with t2 gear can reach that far +100km easily. Again, I like the falcon - good ship, dont want it nerfed - just want more options.
Originally by: "MalVortex" 1 Falcon vs. 3 battleships won't permajam jack. You'll be lucky to lock down 1, and incrementally jam the others. Battleships have very high sensor strengths, reliable jamming on them is not possible
What planet are you on? let's do the math. Near perfect skilled falcon (which isnt uncommon, i've flown with one and had my ass saved more than once). Racial jammer strength roughly 14, multispec strength 9. Raven, high sensor strength of 22 - 14/22 = 63% chance to jam on one module. 9/22 = 40% chance to jam on 1 multi. Most falcon's have 3 multi's - you will permajam one target easily, 2 wont break a sweat - 3 might get the occasional through, but not consistently if the pilot is good.
Im sure after seeing your killboard the whopping 1 drake and 2 manticores you've lost REALLY give you an objective opinion as to the abilities of a falcon when your sitting in multiple BS masturbating since you cant lock anyone, despite your sensor strength being 50 due to the ECCM you have on your mids.
Originally by: Gunner Cid What you are suggesting is a slippery slope because the more management you allow the user to have while jammed is further reducing the effects that ECM has, like if when selecting "target ECM aggressor" it popped up a list of all ECM ships on you it allowed you to select which one to have your drones on, that would be a bit imbalanced.
VERY good point. I'm not suggesting to make drones super-competant AI wise, just give them more options but still make them follow a strict set of rules - the amount of control your talking about would be silly. Make them target damps first (a simple damped or not damped is 100% unlike chance based ECM), then ECM, then tracking disruptors etc. etc. - but targetting specific sources of these EW wouldn't be possible, either the strongest source or a random source of it would make more sense. This also allows for counter tactics, like fitting a single ECM mod to a tanked ship to draw drones onto it and off of EW support. This would be a nice reply for the cookie cutter comment; the gang without a falcon has to fit specially to counter it, so why shouldnt the gang bringing one have to think about out=of-the-box setups aswell?
Perhaps this type of drone control your referring to could be used in creating more than just an RP distinction between drones and manned-fighters. That however is more than just a simple drone rework but would make carrier pilots cream themselfs as they become more useful than simply being hot-dropped in to remote rep people and dps the closest BS.
Originally by: "MalVortex" See what I did there? I fixed those "broken" falcons with ingame tools.
Again i never said it was broken. Your clearly an idiot and only read what you wanted to rather than the point i was making. Farce seems to be the basis of your argument.
More Trigos style posts with decent arguments [please :p] -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.24 11:27:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Maeltstome on 24/06/2008 11:28:49
Originally by: Derek Sigres In which case situation 1 puts the target outnumbered with a severe shortage of electronic superiority. Situation 2 puts electronic superiority in the hands of the party with the falcon. If the falcon were not able to turn the tide in a 2v1 when it's on the side with the higher number, or was unable to turn the tide in an even fight, what good would it be again?
No good, agreed. I’m not proposing any changes to the falcon or ECM, like I said I think it is FINE – I’m proposing a general EW counter via drones which gives larger ships a chance of deterring EW attacks (e.g. a BS with a drone bay will be able to take advantage of this, but a zealot with no drones is still a rubber ducky).
Originally by: Derek Sigres Also, against 3 gallente targets their real issue has nothing to do with drones in a real situation, it's simply that your average gallente ship can't hope to do more than yell nasty things in local at the ranges a falcon operates at. Against 3 more generalist battleships, assuming any of them are sniper fitted you'll find that a single volley is more than enough incentive for the falcon to leave the field for a few moments at least.
Yes it is, and my changes make no difference to that whatsoever – let me reiterate I’m not trying to change the falcon or ECM
Am I going to have to use size 40 font in the opening of this thread before people listen?
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Originally by: Oreo Mon why dont you use a Sensor dampener?
Because we cant lock 140km without being fleet fit. And we cant lock 140km while fleet fit because we are jammed.
Btw... Sensor damp opti 60k, falloff 30k. Go figure
Originally by: Oreo Mon Or just an ECCM?
Not reliable, and unlike the counter to tracking disruptors (tracking computers) and sensor damps (sensor boosters), these add nothing to a setup when not in use against ECM – the other 2 benefit the ship even when not being disrupted or damped.
Originally by: Oreo Mon Or just another Falcon in the fleet?
“The best way to kill a nano is with another nano”
Originally by: Oreo Mon Or a Scorpion?
Why? Just bring another falcon, I’ll live longer.
Originally by: Oreo Mon So I drive a BB. And I dont come and whine or propose something that will counter the uber DPS of a blaster boat. Or I dont propose something to counter or remove the radar boosters!
A counter like: a web, keep at range and common sense?
Originally by: Oreo Mon Whats your problem people.
monosyllabic replies to a complex topic on the forums?
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[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.24 12:43:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Diomidis I would like to see drones defending their "mother-ship", ECM involved or not...if they can do it when assisting / defending another gang-mate, why do they keep on orbiting my "jammed" ship doing nothing?
So first things first...drones should be smarter and answer back, attacking ppl that aggroed you first - isn't that the reason we have that "offensive/defensive" mode in their settings anyway?
They do, to a degree. If deployed and aggressive, drones counter-agress the first person to attack you. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:07:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi if you're shooting someone already when you launch drones, they'll just sit idle. This of course has little use if you're jammed.
exactly. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.25 07:29:00 -
[7]
LordChaos in Decon
LC is a pilot well known for always flying with a falcon backing him up. This video seems nice for his kills, but watch it and go 'oh, nice jam's. Check the killmail - and look what's on bellum's 5th utility mid.
Yet he's still hardly in the fight, even with that.... -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.25 07:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: cianide pro
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Maeltstome II also agree that having one ship completely remove multiple ships from a fight indefinitely is overpowered.
Why is it overpowered? Why would anyone would ever want to fly a EWar ship (a tech 2 one at that) in a fleet, rather than say a battleship or a heavy assult ship, if it couldn't do this?
Rest of the recons don't do this either, but people still find them useful.
ah ok, so the rest also have a change based tank?
ECM isn't a tank - the falcon has the ability to fit a tank like any other ship, or even a buffer e.g. hugin with LSE, pilgrim with 1600 plate (lachesis with.... em.... honor?), but you choose no to by fitting more ecm - not to mention the range of ECM is so huge it effectively removes 90% of eve's ability TO hit them in the first place.
Again, like to stress:
No changes to the falcon are proposed - this is a drone change that effects all E-War ships from all races.
Originally by: cianide pro The falcon is, I think, the ONLY ship from the total caldari fleet that has a role that realy works and does what is should do, so leave this ship alone as its good as it is.
Except you mean:
- The raven which adds huge DPS with torps.
- The rokh which is by far the most effective sniper in the game (perhaps the baddon/apoc rival it).
- The basilisk which has the strongest cap of all logistics and can perma run 4 Battleship remote reps.
- The crow which is the most versatile interceptor in the game.
- The eagle which is now a very effective support sniper.
- The phoenix which recieves 2 damage bonus to 1 weapon system unlike every other dread (granted on kinetic).
- The chimera which can tank harder and longer than any other carrier.
And thats only in pvp - i wont mention the multitude of PVE ships that the caldari steamroll the opposition with. I also didnt mention the drake, since i haven't flown with a drake pilot in pvp before and cant judge it. And i didnt mention any of the ECM ships - face it, caldari aren't that bad off.
Please think before you type crap. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:14:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Maeltstome on 25/06/2008 11:14:56
Originally by: The Tzar And to top it off, ECCM is the most effective counter to ANY races recons anyway.
Think you chose your words wrongly, it's the most effecticve way to counter ECM... and only ECM.
Originally by: The Tzar Lets look at the range issue people are also whinging about. All the other recons can fit a buffer tank AND speed fit AND STILL complete their recon abilities.
Falcon can fit a buffer tank, not speed fit - but start over 100km away anyway which make sup for it.
Originally by: The Tzar Sure reduce the range of the falcon but then I want to be able to use drones, speed tank, buffer tank and be able to jam from 60km please and whilst you at it reduce the effectiveness of ECCM.
Don't ask for equality unless you actually want equality.
AND STOP WHINGEING FFS! MAN UP...
Read what i post, read my OP - stop arguing about changing the falcon. THESE CHANGES DONT TOUCH THE FALCON, THEY ARE DRONE CHANGES - THEY EFFECT ALL E-WAR EQUALLY. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.25 16:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: The Tzar
Originally by: SheriffFruitfly Falcon in a nutshell: 1) Prevents a couple of ships from killing anything 2) Can't stop anybody from leaving 3) Can't kill anything 4) Is paper-thin
Seems fair to me.
At last the voice of reason.
Sure.
NOW READ MY F*CKING OP AND STOP ASSUMING THIS THREAD IS ABOUT NERFING THE FALCON. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
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Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.25 17:25:00 -
[11]
with all other types of E-War there are ways the pilot can use flying skill to get around it.
Damps, get close. Tracking disruptor, angle to decrease travesal / get closer. Target painter, not really a big deal in the first place. Ecm, .... hope you get a lucky lock eventually?
With these drones changes the pilot has an option for taking down any E-War ship, and the first viable one for combatting ECM. "fit eccm" isn't skill based, it's a simple case of you either have it or not. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.25 18:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
You may shout out that mantra of "falcon needs all its slots for ecm" as long as you like, but in reality it doesn't NEED them, it's just the most efficient way of fitting a falcon at the moment, and it does not change the fact, that if such changes to game are made which make falcons take more damage, you have the option of removing ecm or sig amps and fit buffer and at certain break point that will actually be a better overall ecm fit than the all ecm fit that is predominant at the moment.
What else is a falcon going to do but ECM? Do you tank yours up and use it's mighty pair of unbonused launchers to kill things?
Why'd you bother quoting my reply if you didn't read it?
The caldari have found a use for cruiser 5, they stopped reading posts LONG ago -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.25 22:18:00 -
[13]
I'm reserving this post to laugh at those 'arguments' when i have more time tomorrow. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.26 08:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Maeltstome I'm reserving this post to laugh at those 'arguments' when i have more time tomorrow.
If you need that much time to think of something, you don't need to post a reserve slot, I'll read it even if it's a few posts below mine
it's called "i'm going to bed cause i work during the week" -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.26 08:56:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Maeltstome on 26/06/2008 09:15:21
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 25/06/2008 22:10:13 Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 25/06/2008 22:06:06
Originally by: Maeltstome "fit eccm" isn't skill based, it's a simple case of you either have it or not.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Because this is any different from any module ever.
Having any ship with a drone bay hit a button that says "own the falcon" is totally "skill based"
I’m glad you used so many "lol's" - If you hadn't, I may have forgotten how much better at life you are than me.
P.s. If incorrectly used your drones would be killed anyway - since it's impossible to expect 5 heavies to run 100km, you have to use lighter drones with less HP's - even 2 launcher on a falcon could handle a rack of lights reasonably quickly
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Maeltstome with all other types of E-War there are ways the pilot can use flying skill to get around it.
Damps, get close. Tracking disruptor, angle to decrease travesal / get closer. Target painter, not really a big deal in the first place. Ecm, .... hope you get a lucky lock eventually?
You listed skillful ways of getting around the 3 types of ewar...
Oh wait, no you didn't. You merely said "get closer" twice and the jewel of the post: "angle to decrease traVEsal"
Wow, slating my spelling - great way to counter the point I made.
Tracking disruptors can affect range and tracking, depending on which one either getting closer or moving your ship to help lower traversal is the best option.
Target painters are the only form of E-War that don't adversely effect the target ships ability to fight, but make it a bigger target for other ships to attack. In that sense it is unique - therefore there is no way to pilot your ship to get around this. Moving faster, increase traversal and getting out of range are all viable options - but these apply to any fight whether you are painted or not.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu I can only assume you were trying to exclude the use of other modules, as they lack "skill".
The point I was making was the Sensor Booster can counter Damps, Tracking Computers can counter TD’s and ECCM can counter ECM. The point is that the other 2 have other ways you can use to try and fight against the E-War if you don’t have these modules fitted, although I makes your job MUCH harder compared to having them. But with ECM you can only fit a counter module and hope it works, there is no other way to combat ECM.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu With this logic, not only does your drone idea fail epically, as described above, but there would be no counter to dps or tanks either.
Wipe the rabid foam from your mouth and try restructuring that into a statement that makes sense in the real world, not just your own head.
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu An easy way to deal with a falcon with any nano ship is to MWD up to it, bookmark it's spot, and mwd off. Warp back on top of him, lock before he does, and toss your drones on him. Oh look, he just warped off.
Great – if you have a blob behind you with a few nano ships lying around. But if the moaning continues nano will be nerfed to oblivion and we’re back at square one. Not to mention I like to fly in small gangs, where ECM can completely destroy entire gangs if use smartly -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.26 09:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Are you a solo mega? Well guess what, any mega + recon combo will kill you. Please explain what kind of skill a falcon can use to avoid 5 hammerheads? You know, besides needing to warp off or cloak every 5 seconds.
No skill needed (other than warping to bookmarks on grid). But oh wait, your whole “fit ECCM and stop whining” argument falls on its face – cause a pair of LSE will f*cking save your ass for a decent amount of time versus un-bonused drones. But that’s too easy isn’t it, suddenly loosing slots to counter someone’s offence on you seems out of order? Or do we reserve that for everyone but the people who are being jammed.
Not like we can ask you to do what every other recon has to do and fit a buffer, that just wouldn’t be ‘balanced’.
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[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: The Tzar Edited by: The Tzar on 26/06/2008 10:27:28 Rapier is a FAR better ship than the falcon IMO.
I think you've never flown a rapier. Your killboard agree's. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.26 11:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: The Tzar If the only way you can combat this ship is by asking for a nerf then you fail at EvE.
Im not asking for a nerf. im asking for a buff. You fail at reading OP's. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.26 17:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Sure, you arn't nerfing the ship itself. Nerfing damps did nothing to the Arazu's ship. Making ECCM +500% wouldn't be a nerf to ECM, amirite?
You need to start training other races. That statement is so flawed it's unbelievable.
And your right, 1 ships with light drones against a falcon will do little - and it shouldnt. But when you get 5 ships with lights drones it should, like you said. If your arguing that 5 mega's being a threat to a falcon is unbalanced then you need your head checked. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Maeltstome
Minmatar Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.28 17:00:00 -
[20]
You're one of the first people to get the point of this thread, thank you. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
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Maeltstome
Minmatar Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.29 00:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Anyway, you really need to start reading. I've beaten every point you've attempted to make into the ground; and now I sound like a moron as well, arguing over the internet and all.
Whatever helps you sleep - you've made the same point 15 ways and i've tried to say the same thing in answer to it differently, but you seem to think reading half of whats typed then ranting about the ships other races have in comparison (none of which you even fly). I fly all 4 races across 2 chars (even capitals for caldari), and this is something that appeals to me, even as an avid scorpion pilot.
If you think you've beaten me into the ground then so be it, but i haven't seen an origonal or noteworthy point made by yourself yet, desipite some good input from other people... even those who don't agree with this idea. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
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