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SpaceSavage
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.06.22 08:12:00 -
[31]
Yea, that was fun.
GF Gallente, Caldari and RA.
See you all again soon.
_______________
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Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.22 08:17:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt Was more thinking about this bit below - unless there was something not reported like an aggressive act by the FW fleet
Its low-sec. There doesn't need to be one. Besides, the FW fleets are made up of random individuals not operating under any kind of code of conduct or rules of engagement. They should all be considered targets to be fired upon immediately.
Quote:
Originally by: Nick Faulkner A large Executive Outcomes (EXE) fleet jumps in with a few capitals. Numbers of locals increase to 200 and we started getting lagged. A very organized EXE fleet massacres the unorganized FW fleet at the gate in Tama.
Originally by: Ammoina Likewise the Alliances are also coming to black-rise to pirate and to fight the targets that present themselves. Just like they do elsewhere in low-sec and 0.0. Being in a militia doesn't make you immune to that.
I think my response handled it nicely. Next you're going to tell me that Star Fraction shouldn't be allowed to rain on the FW parade either?
Quote: True but isn't that just what CCP didn't want? Otherwise I can't see why they would not allow alliances to join up - if they are using captials vs FW fleets (again the report doesn't say what started it so we don't know why) anyway, then just let them join up like anyone else.
Why join up? Why not just shoot all the militias? Joining FW means picking a side and fighting for that side. Setting up shop in Black-Rise and pirating on the Militias just means exactly that. It means you're not 'in FW', you're just killing targets.
Quote: Remember the intention was to encourage a greater population into PvP by giving them a lowsec war but with a highsec base - they can do that if they fight their war targets but will take too much of a security hit if they have to mass fleet fight "neutrals" that most likely don't care too much for sec rateing anyhow.
Um. How does an alliance shooting you up deprive you of a hi-sec base or a low-sec war? As far as the sec status thing, if someone shoots your militia mates you should be able to return fire on the offending corporation without getting a negative sec hit. I don't know how it currently works, but that is how it should work. In fact I'd imagine it doesn't work like that at the moment. But it should.
Quote: A couple of ways to limit this could be to increase standing hits for neutrals attacking FW (govts don't like independants interfering with their forces or for faction ceo's (ie CCP) to declare war on the alliance involved - faction captials guarding hisec anyone lol.
Would just make for dead faction capitals. Regardless Concord manages sec status, and they don't have any extra special concern if you shoot up militias. In fact from a rp perspective I'd almost suspect that they'd encourage it. The militias are a threat to their power, role and in fact their existence shows the decreasing effectiveness of Concord.
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Ofcourse Imanalt
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Posted - 2008.06.22 08:27:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Havohej Edited by: Havohej on 22/06/2008 07:58:54
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt CCP said that they didn't allow alliances to join FW to stop them from just taking it over - but isn't that just what we are seeing here?
Yes, people will say sandbox etc etc and they are right, but while in theory militias could combat any alliance doing this û alliances, by game design, are simply better structurally to fight a war than a militia can ever be. Militia realistically can not get its entire force organized for operations, they can not control who joins, they can not prevent spying etc while alliances can.
I stopped reading at this point. You really have no idea wtf is going on in this game at all. I'll explain it.
....rant....
And now you want CCP to hold your hand and stop the big, bad 0.0 PvPers from interfering in your noobwars?
gb2wow.
Perhaps you should have read a bit further - like the next post where I say if CCP do not want to limit FW then alliances should be allowed into FW as currently the militias are too restricted to respond effectively.
When the mechanisms for FW were announced I thought ôyeah right û mission runners are just going to do a few FW fleets and suddenly want to pvp normally? What a load of *******sö
But IÆve since been in a few FW actions and have seen longtime missioners actually say what CCP said they would say û pvp is a blast and what the hell itÆs only a ship and have then fly back repeatedly for more deaths usually lol.
I donÆt care if FW exists as such û its just another part of the game which affects me as much as exploration does (and IÆm not sure why you are so angry about it existing û just ignore it) but I will admit I can now see CCPs thinking can work and IÆm not arrogant enough (just) to think that only "big, bad 0.0 PvPers" can ever pvp effectively.
If CCPs ideas play out then FW will be a great stepping stone to the 0.0 wasteland that is for some FWers and an end in itself for others. Whats the stats 80-90% of Eve do not pvp?
So I hope FW succeeds.
gb2therapy ---------------------------------------------------------- Of course I'm an alt - knowledge wins wars ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.22 08:29:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt Whats the stats 80-90% of Eve do not pvp?
And you grabbed that stat from where? Your ass?
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.06.22 08:37:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Havohej stuff
I think you need to look at the bigger picture. Yes, FW is filled with noobs that you may despise, but it will bring tons of players into 0.0 with time. Its good for the game if the population increases. 0.0 residents whine about empire dwellers just doing missions and mining, well, now they are trying some blob warfare. Its a start.
I dont agree with "ofcourse Imanalt" that alliances will take over faction warfare. I dont see them having much interest in fighting for nothing.
--- Its dead, Jim.
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Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.06.22 08:53:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt stuff
Point ---------(woosh)------> Your head.
I don't care about existence of FW itself. If I weren't busy trying to help build an alliance that will actually be worth something within the next six months, I would pull my corp out of 0.0 to fight for the Tribal Whosawhutzits Minmatar guys. I like the idea of it in general.
What I don't like is that fact that it took CCP holding your hands to get the bulk of the FW participants to play the damn game - you know, associate with other people, go to lowsec and pvp, pvp in a wardec ('cause that's all it really is when you get right down to the meat and potatoes of it - you join a war dec, except each side has NPC help in highsec). I find that part disgusting.
I also don't like the fact that you're already calling for MORE CCP hand-holding in the form of "don't let the big bad 0.0 wolf hotdrop capital fleets on us no more " when you were all so proud of yourselves just days ago for killing a few carriers and putting a POS into reinforced in lowsec.
Stop looking for CCP to play the game for you. You beat your chests about how FW players aren't a complete joke and can stand up to anything, right? That's all we've been reading about all week - the uberness of the FW blobs. Welp. You called down the thunder, well now you got it.
I said nothing of the FW blob's effectiveness, either. Any blob will be effective against other blobs until met by a larger and/or more organized blob. But don't you for one minute think that all it takes to survive in 0.0 is a blob of caracals and drakes or even carriers on a gate - FW doesn't teach noobs and empire carebears the first thing about living in lowsec, let alone 0.0.
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Ofcourse Imanalt
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Posted - 2008.06.22 08:54:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ammoina
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt Whats the stats 80-90% of Eve do not pvp?
And you grabbed that stat from where? Your ass?
It's a question mark - see the ? - I saw a dev post somewhere about proportion of people living in 0.0 and low sec vs high sec - couldn't remember the proportion but it was high enough to make me remember it - hence the ? as in ..."80-90 is it?' ---------------------------------------------------------- Of course I'm an alt - knowledge wins wars ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.06.22 08:59:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Havohej stuff
I think you need to look at the bigger picture. Yes, FW is filled with noobs that you may despise, but it will bring tons of players into 0.0 with time. Its good for the game if the population increases. 0.0 residents whine about empire dwellers just doing missions and mining, well, now they are trying some blob warfare. Its a start.
I dont agree with "ofcourse Imanalt" that alliances will take over faction warfare. I dont see them having much interest in fighting for nothing.
I didn't say anything about despising noobs. Noobs are fine. What I despise are the pussies who needed CCP to hold their hands to get them to go talk to each other and maybe lose a ship to some "PKer scum" in lowsec or in an empire war and now they smack on the forums about it and beat their chests like they've done something. It's a start, that's absolutely right. You know that, and I know that, but to hear these guys tell it, you'd think they captured NOL.
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Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:04:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt It's a question mark - see the ? - I saw a dev post somewhere about proportion of people living in 0.0 and low sec vs high sec - couldn't remember the proportion but it was high enough to make me remember it - hence the ? as in ..."80-90 is it?'
Right so, your ass then. Said 'dev post' (and econ blog) talked about characters, not players. 4 of my 6 characters live in hi-sec. 1 of the 6 goes between hi, low and 0.0 and the last lives only in low and 0.0 (mmmmmm -10 goodnes). I guess according to that survey of six characters 66% of people don't engage in pvp right?
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Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:08:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ammoina
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt It's a question mark - see the ? - I saw a dev post somewhere about proportion of people living in 0.0 and low sec vs high sec - couldn't remember the proportion but it was high enough to make me remember it - hence the ? as in ..."80-90 is it?'
Right so, your ass then. Said 'dev post' (and econ blog) talked about characters, not players. 4 of my 6 characters live in hi-sec. 1 of the 6 goes between hi, low and 0.0 and the last lives only in low and 0.0 (mmmmmm -10 goodnes). I guess according to that survey of six characters 66% of people don't engage in pvp right?
Because everybody has 6 accounts.
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Ofcourse Imanalt
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:11:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Ofcourse Imanalt on 22/06/2008 09:14:27
Originally by: Havohej
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt stuff
What I don't like is that fact that it took CCP holding your hands to get the bulk of the FW participants to play the damn game - you know, associate with other people, go to lowsec and pvp, pvp in a wardec ('cause that's all it really is when you get right down to the meat and potatoes of it - you join a war dec, except each side has NPC help in highsec). I find that part disgusting.
Well CCP think otherwise and the history of the game shows otherwise (notice no stats) - but it's true that most players live hi sec yes? (or maybe not) It is an unfortunate character of games that people don't like to lose things and Eve is the only one that actually makes this real (ingame) so we'll just have to live with the fact that to get people out of hi-sec and into pvp Eve they will need hand-holding.
Originally by: Havohej
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt stuff
But don't you for one minute think that all it takes to survive in 0.0 is a blob of caracals and drakes or even carriers on a gate - FW doesn't teach noobs and empire carebears the first thing about living in lowsec, let alone 0.0.
I know what it takes and yes it isn't the current majority FW stuff but I think it does teach people - I've seen it in good FC fleets - they learn both the mechanics, the 'rules' and how to fit effectively (note I said the good FCs - ex 0.0 people I suspect on the whole). I was with the early on "FW will be pointless" crowd but having been in it I can see how it's working - think of it more as a filter and I'll be betting you'll be flying in the future with FW "graduates"....
....or it could all crash out and fail (doubt it) - but the principle is right. ---------------------------------------------------------- Of course I'm an alt - knowledge wins wars ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:15:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Havohej Because everybody has 6 accounts.
Aren't you just the cutest little thing... there are 3 characters per account. Your typical low-sec/0.0 person has all three character slots turned on and running. Either as cyno alts, scout alts, market alts, spys, *insert purpose* and they normally reside in hi-sec. Where-ever the main happens to be. These numbers have been crunched before. I'll let you try and figure out how to crunch them for yourself. Suffice to say it doesn't matter since there are those who live in hi-sec and do plenty of PVP.
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Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:19:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt Well CCP think otherwise and the history of the game shows otherwise (notice no stats) - but it's true that most players live hi sec yes? (or maybe not)
Its a majority. But its not near 90%. I honestly don't remember and its probably changed somewhat since the last econ report. Figure 60% is closer to the truth.
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Ofcourse Imanalt
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:22:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ammoina
Originally by: Havohej Because everybody has 6 accounts.
Your typical low-sec/0.0 person has all three character slots turned on and running. Either as cyno alts, scout alts, market alts, spys, *insert purpose* and they normally reside in hi-sec.
HA! - now whos pulling thing out of their arse (spell it right) - and it doesn't matter that your prob right ---------------------------------------------------------- Of course I'm an alt - knowledge wins wars ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:26:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ammoina
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt Well CCP think otherwise and the history of the game shows otherwise (notice no stats) - but it's true that most players live hi sec yes? (or maybe not)
Its a majority. But its not near 90%. I honestly don't remember and its probably changed somewhat since the last econ report. Figure 60% is closer to the truth.
I distinctly remember an 80 in those figures somewhere... you're giving the eve playerbase too much credit for bravery. And when most people mention how many characters they have, they're not talking about minimally trained utility alts - my industry director, for example, has 5 cyno alts, but that says nothing of his actual 3 characters.
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Ofcourse Imanalt
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:27:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ofcourse Imanalt on 22/06/2008 09:32:09 Edited by: Ofcourse Imanalt on 22/06/2008 09:30:35
Originally by: Ammoina
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt Well CCP think otherwise and the history of the game shows otherwise (notice no stats) - but it's true that most players live hi sec yes? (or maybe not)
Its a majority. But its not near 90%. I honestly don't remember and its probably changed somewhat since the last econ report. Figure 60% is closer to the truth.
75% and thats my final offer - pulling the Econ last 07 report to see but it's giving my eyeballs a hernia
Edit: from the report "Overall, 81% of pilots travelled to high-sec and/or low-sec only, and 19% travelled to zero-zero space." plus "At both peak hours and close to downtime, about 8% of pilots were located in zero-zero space, and 82% in low-sec and high-sec." I'm assuming thats online ones at the time - but doesn't say speciffically. hmmm - draw? ---------------------------------------------------------- Of course I'm an alt - knowledge wins wars ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:30:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Havohej And when most people mention how many characters they have, they're not talking about minimally trained utility alts
Thats part of your problem. The Econ Report is talking about characters. Not players. Not accounts. Specifically they're talking about all those non-trained/minimally trained trade alts sitting in market hubs that do nothing but log in once a week to check prices for some transaction between two corp mates in 0.0 somewhere in order to make sure no one is getting cheated.
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Roguehalo
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:39:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Roguehalo on 22/06/2008 09:41:19 Quote from Havohej :-
"Same for the carebears and noobs in FW right now. They're only doing it so they can get ranks like anksunawhatsherface,"
If somedody in Nourvukaiken says 'x up for plexing fleet' he struggles to get 20 replies.
If somebody in Nourvukaiken says 'x up for combat mission deep into enemy territory'.......well you already seen the results of that.
We could care less about ranks and victory points.
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Ofcourse Imanalt
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ammoina
Originally by: Havohej And when most people mention how many characters they have, they're not talking about minimally trained utility alts
Thats part of your problem. The Econ Report is talking about characters. Not players. Not accounts. Specifically they're talking about all those non-trained/minimally trained trade alts sitting in market hubs that do nothing but log in once a week to check prices for some transaction between two corp mates in 0.0 somewhere in order to make sure no one is getting cheated.
Econ again "During the last two weeks of Q4, a total of 6.85 million visits were made to solar systems by 252,000 characters. This means that about 210,000 characters stayed within the same system or were not accessed during this time. The characters that are not accessed or do not move between systems are most likely alternate characters for subscribers. We therefore assume that these jumps show us the movement of main characters on each subscription account and are therefore representative for the movement of the main population in EVE."
So even CCP don't actually know
Guess the Q2 report will show us ..... ---------------------------------------------------------- Of course I'm an alt - knowledge wins wars ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:43:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Roguehalo Edited by: Roguehalo on 22/06/2008 09:41:19 Quote from Havohej :-
"Same for the carebears and noobs in FW right now. They're only doing it so they can get ranks like anksunawhatsherface,"
If somedody in Nourvukaiken says 'x up for plexing fleet' he struggles to get 20 replies.
If somebody in Nourvukaiken says 'x up for combat mission deep into enemy territory'.......well you already seen the results of that.
We could care less about ranks and victory points.
Then why did it take NPC Faction Warfare (CCP hand-holding) to get you to PvP, you social butterflies, you?
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Ofcourse Imanalt
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:50:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Havohej
I don't care about existence of FW itself. If I weren't busy trying to help build an alliance that will actually be worth something within the next six months, I would pull my corp out of 0.0 to fight for the Tribal Whosawhutzits Minmatar guys. I like the idea of it in general.
Building an alliance is way more important that FW esp in early stage but do yourself a favour and try FW even briefly with an alt if you have a spare and can spare any time. When was the last time you flew a frigate in anger? (with at least some chance of surviving lol). Its been years for me and it was a blast.......beginning to sound like a CCP dev - sorry (still true tho)
Just don't be a FC yourself and get a good FC.
---------------------------------------------------------- Of course I'm an alt - knowledge wins wars ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:56:00 -
[52]
Well, I was there as a neut. Was fun like hell seeing all that mess. Still, I don't understand why my poor tristan deserved the honor of being primaried.... :-)
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Roguehalo
RH Ship Brokers
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Posted - 2008.06.22 09:57:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Havohej
Originally by: Roguehalo Edited by: Roguehalo on 22/06/2008 09:41:19 Quote from Havohej :-
"Same for the carebears and noobs in FW right now. They're only doing it so they can get ranks like anksunawhatsherface,"
If somedody in Nourvukaiken says 'x up for plexing fleet' he struggles to get 20 replies.
If somebody in Nourvukaiken says 'x up for combat mission deep into enemy territory'.......well you already seen the results of that.
We could care less about ranks and victory points.
Then why did it take NPC Faction Warfare (CCP hand-holding) to get you to PvP, you social butterflies, you?
It's very simple
FW is consensual........we signed up for it
Any time we like we can resign
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Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.22 10:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt Econ again "During the last two weeks of Q4, a total of 6.85 million visits were made to solar systems by 252,000 characters. This means that about 210,000 characters stayed within the same system or were not accessed during this time. The characters that are not accessed or do not move between systems are most likely alternate characters for subscribers. We therefore assume that these jumps show us the movement of main characters on each subscription account and are therefore representative for the movement of the main population in EVE."
So even CCP don't actually know
Basically yeah they don't. What that does tell you is that the straight character percentage numbers don't tell you even close to the real story (ie, the 9%, 13% and 76%). By making some simple assumptions you can construct a probable distribution of accounts, but its just that assumptions. And those assumptions would involve more than just jumps made.
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Ammoina
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.06.22 10:04:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Roguehalo
It's very simple
FW is consensual........we signed up for it
Any time we like we can resign
And um, by going into low-sec and putting yourself at risk by being blow up by *insert random pirate gang with better ships and organization than you* is now A-OK because you joined a NPC Militia corp full of random people instead of the NPC noob corp or a care-bear corp or etc... ?
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Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.06.22 10:04:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Havohej on 22/06/2008 10:05:04
Originally by: Roguehalo
Originally by: Havohej [ Then why did it take NPC Faction Warfare (CCP hand-holding) to get you to PvP, you social butterflies, you?
It's very simple
FW is consensual........we signed up for it
Any time we like we can resign
That sounds like wardec's (leave the corp, drop the wardec), and lowsec (only shoot the flashy red outlaws so you don't take sec hits, go back to highsec when you want out), and 0.0 pvp (go back to highsec when you want out) to me. So, why did it take CCP hand-holding to get you to PvP, you social butterflies, you?
EDIT: Ammonia beat me to the punch.
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Kaaii
PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.06.22 10:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: rgreat
Originally by: Nick Faulkner RA lost some battleships but...
We lost 1 cyno Recon only.
Nerf Russia!
07
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
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Ofcourse Imanalt
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Posted - 2008.06.22 10:47:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Roguehalo
Originally by: Havohej
Originally by: Roguehalo Edited by: Roguehalo on 22/06/2008 09:41:19 Quote from Havohej :-
"Same for the carebears and noobs in FW right now. They're only doing it so they can get ranks like anksunawhatsherface,"
If somedody in Nourvukaiken says 'x up for plexing fleet' he struggles to get 20 replies.
If somebody in Nourvukaiken says 'x up for combat mission deep into enemy territory'.......well you already seen the results of that.
We could care less about ranks and victory points.
Then why did it take NPC Faction Warfare (CCP hand-holding) to get you to PvP, you social butterflies, you?
It's very simple
FW is consensual........we signed up for it
Any time we like we can resign
Ok yeah - even I'm embarrassed by that answer.
To learn to pvp or to RP a war or to just get the added bonus of pveing with greater risks but please not just because you can resign at any time - Embrace the non-concent pvp part of Eve even if your not pvp seeking - it's what makes Eve so great.
So one point to Havohej - the ability to flip out like that is too much - but FW is still worthwhile overall
---------------------------------------------------------- Of course I'm an alt - knowledge wins wars ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Khlitouris RegusII
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Posted - 2008.06.22 10:54:00 -
[59]
After the spanking that BOB gave RA and Goons they have obviously realised theyre not suited for 0.0 life so have returned to empire to fight easy targets.
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Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.06.22 10:56:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Ofcourse Imanalt Building an alliance is way more important that FW esp in early stage but do yourself a favour and try FW even briefly with an alt if you have a spare and can spare any time. When was the last time you flew a frigate in anger? (with at least some chance of surviving lol). Its been years for me and it was a blast.......beginning to sound like a CCP dev - sorry (still true tho)
Just don't be a FC yourself and get a good FC.
I'm sorry, I missed this post earlier somehow - didn't mean to ignore it. I LOVE flying frigates. I prefer them over anything else. I roam solo in Rifters and Wolfs all the time. Click my sig graphic and check out the blog if at all interested - lots of fun stuff in there imo, but look for A Tale of Two Logoffskis and Far And Wide specifically. My corp has a griefwatch killboard, this is my "Ships flown" stats:
Quote: Statistics (Ships Flown) 1: Stiletto [26] 2: Wolf [21] 3: Rifter [17] 4: Rupture [11] 5: Hurricane [6] 6: Jaguar [6] 7: Cyclone [4] 8: Stabber [4] 9: Claw [3] 10: Typhoon [3] 11: Cormorant [1] 12: Thrasher [1]
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