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Ariko Gunaris
Office of Ganking and Commerce
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Posted - 2008.06.17 17:59:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ariko Gunaris on 17/06/2008 18:02:02 CCP's mechanic of not allowing alliances to participate in FW is having consequences. I lay no judgment on these consequences -- whether they are good or bad is a matter of perspective.
Simply, PvP alliances that do not take the 'pirate in empire' route are dieing. There is absolutely no growth in the numbers of the top 30 or so alliance rankings since FW was introduced. Moreover, some PvP alliances are now bleeding members and alts into FW.
The reasons are simple: 1 Casual pvp on demand, with plenty of newbies to kill. This is especially true if one is in the Minmatar or Gallente factions and can kill the bloated Caldari faction. 2 PvP free of capital ship blobs, Titans, doomsdays, motherships and other such nonsense 3 PvP free of hidden blobs, such as from jump bridges 4 lack of bubbles, so a lower risk of podding -- you are more able to more freely use implant sets such as snakes or slaves 5 Ease of resupply in empire
It is almost certain empire alliances like Privateers are going to be no more -- although the corporations and members themselves will probably stay together under a faction, the alliance itself will die.
Similarly, many more 0.0 alliances' member who PvP frequently will find themselves gravitating towards factional warfare, either through alts or mains. Alliances like CVA, Pandemic Legion, and Goonswarm are also going to feel pain.
The only use of 0.0 will be for ISK and the PvP that will occur will be the infrequent fights that result over stations and moons. The infrequent nature 0.0 PvP will mean that more and more PvP minded pilots will join FW -- this development will only feed itself until theres not many actual PvP characters left.
Alliances will collapse. Holding alliances will be formed, with most actual players in FW corps. The only alliances that will survive this are carebear types whose goal is something other than PvP.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:02:00 -
[2]
Five words:
Promethium. Dysprosium. Supply. Demand. Escalation. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Murtala
Mushin Market
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:04:00 -
[3]
yeah, it is the end of Bob, Goons and RA etc.
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Ariko Gunaris
Office of Ganking and Commerce
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Haradgrim Five words:
Promethium. Dysprosium. Supply. Demand. Escalation.
Infrequent fights over the span of days that will usually result in capital blobbage. I don't think greed alone will keep things alive.
Oh, and to the poster that mentioned BoB: no, BoB will survive this .
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Toman Jerich
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:11:00 -
[5]
Some people PVP to have good fights and blow up ships. FW looks good for that.
Some people PVP to make their enemies quit the game by destroying trillions in enemy assets, bringing to ruin the fruits of months of enemy work, and demolishing enemy positive self-perception.
0.0 will still be the place for people who like PVP with significant consequences.
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darkin here
Is Usually Right
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:12:00 -
[6]
to the OP
I've heard of talking out of your azz, but typing out of it? impressive
FYI Redswarm have lost 40% of their membership to gall navy. honest
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
Originally by: Haradgrim Five words:
Promethium. Dysprosium. Supply. Demand. Escalation.
Infrequent fights over the span of days that will usually result in capital blobbage. I don't think greed alone will keep things alive.
Oh, and to the poster that mentioned BoB: no, BoB will survive this .
Why infrequent? Personally I believe greed is what makes EVE's game mechanics possible.
As for t2 materials, they are too profitable to not be fought over and considering the fact that FW is mostly a massive ISK sink.... I don't think there is anything to fear in that regard.
Provided something major isn't changed regarding rare moon materials you can expect the games largest power blocs to be those that reside in the space where the moons exist simply because profit = players, if an alliance is making isk hand over fist and needs more pilots to protect their sovreign space...do you really think it will be an issue (i.e. here have free/cheap tech 2 ships and caps if you fight for us...)? --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Toman Jerich
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:15:00 -
[8]
Over the really really long term 0.0 might end up looking like it does on the chinese server, unless there are game mechanics changes. But by the time it reached that point a better game internet spaceships game will probably come out.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:17:00 -
[9]
FW is CounterStrike- cheap, fun, instant and meaningless.
Alliance warfare is Civilization- empire building, diplomacy, large scale strategy, with added pew pew and multiplayer fun.
They're both fine for what they're fine at, but they're not the same. The people who are drawn to Alliance warfare will still be drawn to Alliance warfare. And if anything, a bit of relief on the numbers of people entering Alliance warfare could be a good thing; 0.0 has been getting more and more crowded and difficult to get in to as the years have gone by, and will continue to get so for as long as EVE's player base increases. Giving players an excuse to PvP in the largely deserted low-sec space is a great way of spreading players about. ------
Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways. |
King Leopold
Congo Free State
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:18:00 -
[10]
I tend to really agree with the OP. Fact is, pvp is now in the hands of the masses. I was in Agoze the other night and there was 60 in local duking it out - it was a fantastic light show with masses of t1 cruisers and frigates slugging it out over a contested stronghold. Absolutely no force cohesion or order of batter, just "boom.. boom, bang.. POW!".. great light show.
But back to the OP, this will allow a great many into pvp and I think the overall effect will be quite interesting. Now, no longer do you need to pirate to pvp and move to 0.0 - now you can blast away at anyone in empire and now worry about sec status. You now need to download ombey's maps to learn how to traverse hostile faction territory, and learn how to properly fit a ship. All these things are great for new players, since MANY just don't do it enough. They can participate in fleets and learn proper order of battle (how units are organized).
If the new player community can sustain their losses and fight effectively in small to mid-size fleets, this I believe will be a very good change to Eve.
I think all of what the OP noted as "good" things for FW are indeed .. good things. Being that I've fought a ton in 0.0 and pirated (hate grinding sec status), I believe many more new 0.0 alliance recruits will be much better fighters. --
Read my Blog - Congo Free State
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Toman Jerich Over the really really long term 0.0 might end up looking like it does on the chinese server, unless there are game mechanics changes. But by the time it reached that point a better game internet spaceships game will probably come out.
I strongly believe that language barriers and timezone differences will keep that from happening. These things act like natural geographical borders so while 0.0 may end up looking like an oligarchy with a few massive power blocs controlling the whole thing, it will never be 1 uniform bloc. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Ariko Gunaris
Office of Ganking and Commerce
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:23:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Ariko Gunaris on 17/06/2008 18:24:44
Originally by: Patch86 FW is CounterStrike- cheap, fun, instant and meaningless.
Alliance warfare is Civilization- empire building, diplomacy, large scale strategy, with added pew pew and multiplayer fun.
What you say is very true, but look at the popularity of Counterstrike versus Civilization. Look at the rapid growth of militias since the release -- they have more players now than BoB and Goonswarm combined.
If an alliance like 'paper tiger' Triumvirate were alive today, would they survive FW? I think not.
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Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:24:00 -
[13]
if i felt like playing with a bunch of ******* pubbies in low sec i wouldn't be here in 0.0 Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dramaticus if i felt like playing with a bunch of ******* pubbies in low sec i wouldn't be here in 0.0
but you have battlestars in your alliance BOOSH Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Moctobot
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Haradgrim Promethium. Dysprosium.
both exist in lowsec
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Moctobot
Originally by: Haradgrim Promethium. Dysprosium.
both exist in lowsec
so do belt rats, it doesn't mean it makes more sense to rat there then 0.0 --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Mistress Ingrid
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:54:00 -
[17]
FWIW in my little corner of 0.0 all the pirates have evaporated since FW lauched. I don't really understand the motivations behind pirating, so I can't speculate on how long it will last, but it's safer in 0.0 than in empire these days. |
LoKesh
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:56:00 -
[18]
I don't think you have the correct feel for alliance growth or for the mentality of the major 0.0 alliances.
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
There is absolutely no growth in the numbers of the top 30 or so alliance rankings since FW was introduced. Moreover, some PvP alliances are now bleeding members and alts into FW.
My info is coming from here, btw - http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancerank.asp?Sov=OFF
A characteristic common to the the top 10 alliances is that they're rather static. These groups are well established and have obtained sufficient resources (members, isk, ships, raw materials) to meet their needs. Changes in the size of these groups comes infrequently when they gain or lose a corporation.
Looking beyond the top 10, I believe any changes you see are probably part of a longer trend and can be explain due to some ongoing issue. (Conflict with another alliance, such as the ongoing drop in IAC at #12)
Truthfully, a week isn't enough time to identify any new trends.
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
The reasons are simple: 1 Casual pvp on demand, with plenty of newbies to kill. This is especially true if one is in the Minmatar or Gallente factions and can kill the bloated Caldari faction. 2 PvP free of capital ship blobs, Titans, doomsdays, motherships and other such nonsense 3 PvP free of hidden blobs, such as from jump bridges 4 lack of bubbles, so a lower risk of podding -- you are more able to more freely use implant sets such as snakes or slaves 5 Ease of resupply in empire
As a few people have alluded to above, I think you're missing the draw of empire building. Yes, in FW you're fighting over claimable systems - but you're doing so within the (rather artificial) rules and limitations set down by CCP. 0.0 is much more open - you can capture space, you have to defend it all yourself and you can build infrastructure (or destroy it) to further your goals.
The stable 0.0 alliances are the ones with enough infrastructure to cover their logistic needs (major hint there for people starting an alliance, btw). This means re-supply is part of the PvP.
There is, in fact, 0.0 PvP that doesn't involve blobs. Those 'infrequent' battles you predicted - those are the ones likely to have blobs. Plenty of things center around freedom of movement and smaller gate camps.
You have a point with #1 and #4 - the casual nature of things makes this a good point for people to experiment with PvP. I predict that it will reach it's limit due to organizational issues though (people in 0.0 alliance join with an understand of who is in charge, etc, etc - and if they don't like it they leave... or split the group). If you don't like your faction, you may not have much choice. PvP will likely stay ad hoc without alot of true long term thinking (a notion that is supported by the inability to do things like build or really capture outposts)
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris It is almost certain empire alliances like Privateers are going to be no more -- although the corporations and members themselves will probably stay together under a faction, the alliance itself will die.
Privateers existed to run multiple war decs to provide their members with easy and plentiful targets. I think the changes in how wars worked really hurt their popularity anyway. Yes, a good alternative for them would be to join a faction - thus providing targets. These targets may be more prepared to fight back though. We'll see :)
All-in-all, I don't think you understand what drives us 0.0 types. FW sounds like a nifty game mechanic, but it is much different than what draws us to 0.0
xFoundation, xVC, xRISE Proudly serving Skunk-Works |
Death4free
Darkstar Industrial
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Toman Jerich Over the really really long term 0.0 might end up looking like it does on the chinese server, unless there are game mechanics changes. But by the time it reached that point a better game internet spaceships game will probably come out.
meh the russian overlords will already have enslaved all of eve by then using the trillions farmed from their moon mining.
Eve information kiosk
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Omeega
UA Industry Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:59:00 -
[20]
Honest post, honest answer.
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
The reasons are simple: 1 Casual pvp on demand, with plenty of newbies to kill.
If you're looking to actualy get into the higher level, 0.0 at a small (Outbreak), medium (Pandemic Legion) or larger (RSF...) scale, is still the way to go to make the biggest progress and fight the empires that are including the most skilled people - logistics, strategy, intelligence and cold-blooded.
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
2 PvP free of capital ship blobs, Titans, doomsdays, motherships and other such nonsense
It's not a thread to discuss weather the addition of (super) caps has been positive or not to EVE. But in the end, we've all adapted and are all trying to fix the last nonsense parts you're talking about (like the remote-dd etc...that have already been fixed)
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
3 PvP free of hidden blobs, such as from jump bridges
Once again, jump bridges are a parameter to take in count if you're a good strategist. They have lots of pros and cons, still few issues (like beeing able to work under a cynojammed system...) But i'm pretty sure you can't talk about hidden blobs.
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
4 lack of bubbles, so a lower risk of podding -- you are more able to more freely use implant sets such as snakes or slaves
Well, I'd say #1 caracteristic of EVE is the fact that you're daily risking real assets (compared to the WOW gameplay), therefore beeing able to play "safer" tends to remove this adrenaline going hand in hand with the EVE-O gaming.
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
5 Ease of resupply in empire
Yeah well, ok, I can't realy comment that point :)
Tot plegat, I'm still convinced that FW can give you some small and intensive fight. I'm also convinced that it has been a pretty smart decision by CCP to slowly transfer people from 0.5+ to 0.1+ systems.
People are discovering more, fleets, gang chats, fleet commands and so on. The whole thing is even getting pretty good as we see some old 0.0 vets get invested into this FW wars and gangs, passing some of their knowledge.
Anyways, I'm sure FW won't replace 0.0 fights, and that 0.0 fights are the endgame FW in a matter (if we could remove the lag of course!).
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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Omeega
UA Industry Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:03:00 -
[21]
Hmm the endgame part is not realy true.
Let's say 0.0 and FW are quite different, some old vets joined to have a taste of the old days (when BS's were rare) and new players are joining to get on a superior PVPing level.
All around it's all positive!
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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Goberth Ludwig
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:05:00 -
[22]
Popping noobs is fun but gets old, you can try improving your setup each new run but at the end of the day if you are primary in the blob you die.
0.0 pvp has depth in the form of strategy and organization. So no, op is wrong and also sounds abit like a "oh god 0.0" rant.
- Gob
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:09:00 -
[23]
What Omeega said. (I can't believe I just wrote that) --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris
The reasons are simple: 1 Casual pvp on demand, with plenty of newbies to kill. This is especially true if one is in the Minmatar or Gallente factions and can kill the bloated Caldari faction. 2 PvP free of capital ship blobs, Titans, doomsdays, motherships and other such nonsense 3 PvP free of hidden blobs, such as from jump bridges 4 lack of bubbles, so a lower risk of podding -- you are more able to more freely use implant sets such as snakes or slaves 5 Ease of resupply in empire
This.
If you're not dependent on moon income, which I ain't, then frankly you'd have to be crazy to 'do pvp' in 0.0
Game mechanics such as bubbles, titans, jump bridges, 30 carrier hotdrops etc are all damps on FUN pvp, and FW is very veryvery fun (so far anyway, we'll see how it develops)
You forgot 'compulsory operations' and 'pos timers'. More reasons to loathe 0.0 alliance 'pvp'
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig Popping noobs is fun but gets old, you can try improving your setup each new run but at the end of the day if you are primary in the blob you die.
0.0 pvp has depth in the form of strategy and organization. So no, op is wrong and also sounds abit like a "oh god 0.0" rant.
- Gob
You're just making assumptions about FW and you're wrong. Its NOT all nublets at all. FW has attracted some excellent PVP corps. If you avoid the silly blobs (easy to do) then there are some very fun and challenging small gang fights to be had, the likes of which are very rare in 0.0 space these days
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Ariko Gunaris
Office of Ganking and Commerce
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:20:00 -
[26]
I'm going to have to agree with Butter Dog *shudder*
It's all about options -- in a factional warfare corp, you can practically do whatever you want in 0.0 short of claiming stations -- but you can easily do with with alt holding alliances.
Being in a real alliance, you can't take a full part in factional warfare and are limited in ways which you can take part. Factional warfare is already the PvP center of Eve right now in terms of numbers of ships blown up, and that's just one week after the release.
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Omeega
UA Industry Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris I'm going to have to agree with Butter Dog *shudder*
It's all about options -- in a factional warfare corp, you can practically do whatever you want in 0.0 short of claiming stations -- but you can easily do with with alt holding alliances.
Being in a real alliance, you can't take a full part in factional warfare and are limited in ways which you can take part. Factional warfare is already the PvP center of Eve right now in terms of numbers of ships blown up, and that's just one week after the release.
Yes but I chose 0.0 warfare, because it's the most elaborate gaming experience - want it or not.
Each of your steps has to be deeply studied before beeing done and that's absolutely not the case in empire.
Politics, relationships, history, propaganda, logistics are all aspects that personaly add to this game his entire difference and reason to be played.
I'm just afraid that FW is going to become like the WOW battlegrounds, when you're looking for cheap kills to get points, rather than pursuing a real founded ideology like CVA for amarrians or, in my case, old grudges that have been kept awake those five last years.
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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Captain Shocker
eXtended Corporation 24
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:42:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Captain Shocker on 17/06/2008 19:43:12
You're just making assumptions about FW and you're wrong. Its NOT all nublets at all. FW has attracted some excellent PVP corps. If you avoid the silly blobs (easy to do) then there are some very fun and challenging small gang fights to be had, the likes of which are very rare in 0.0 space these days
Agreed. The assumption that everyone in FW is on a 14 day trial and doesnt know what hardeners do is false. I think your giving alot of null sec pvpers alot of credit without warrant. Most alliances rely on a small percentage(relative to the alliance and the mission of said alliance) who are more than capable to hold there own anywhere while the rest are nothing but glorified "deathblobs" that try to outlast the other deathblob.
And to touch on the point of pirates and mercs disappearing to fw its pretty simple.
1)if im not mistaken you can salvage wrecks just like anywhere else. Im sure a few faction fittings have been scooped for isk/fitting purposes(see RA thread)
2) Gatecamping is not fun. With the invention of jumpfreighters less profitable as well. True you may get the noob badger pilot with t1 stuff but meh.
3) proof of your superiority. Since eves inception pirates are looked at as low-sec griefers who couldnt cut it in a "real" alliance. Now they have a forum to prove otherwise.
4)FW is fun. Isnt that why we all play?
Alliances are not going anywhere but as Goons/RA blue everyone then un-blue them at there convinece alot will say to hell with it and migrate to FW. But in a cp bashing world thumbs up to them for it. Now fix large fleet lag and i may have a different opinion about things.
-The Shocker
EDIT: For spelling
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Goberth Ludwig
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:46:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ariko Gunaris I'm going to have to agree with Butter Dog *shudder*
It's all about options -- in a factional warfare corp, you can practically do whatever you want in 0.0 short of claiming stations -- but you can easily do with with alt holding alliances.
Being in a real alliance, you can't take a full part in factional warfare and are limited in ways which you can take part. Factional warfare is already the PvP center of Eve right now in terms of numbers of ships blown up, and that's just one week after the release.
the ships to blow up will go down not up after the novelty effect is gone imo, also butter dog: so the people who didnt really manage to adapt to 0.0 changes like bridges and caps use FW as a time machine to 2006 where they can still feel good? (sorry if I sound a bit harsh)
- Gob
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Omeega
UA Industry Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:49:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Butter Dog
If you're not dependent on moon income, which I ain't, then frankly you'd have to be crazy to 'do pvp' in 0.0
I am not dependent of the moon income. Moon income is a huge game mechanics that helps me accomplish my gaming experience.
I can develop my character, his ships, his assets, my corpmate's ships, skills, group cohesion etc...
Originally by: Butter Dog
Game mechanics such as bubbles, titans, jump bridges, 30 carrier hotdrops etc are all damps on FUN pvp, and FW is very veryvery fun (so far anyway, we'll see how it develops)
It's not because you've not been able to use those features CCP offered you (or didn't want to, please, it's not a personal grudge or attack) at their full extent that you should generalise and say they are damps on FUN pvp.
I've yet to see something more amazing than beeing hotdropped or hotdropping a fleet, evolving with an enemy titan in system and so on. Screams, silence, orders, surprise, fear and deception, that's why I play in 0.0.
Sure small PVP warfare is good, but it has nothing to do with the biggest 0.0 fleetfights, wich issues will have lot's of effects on your future stations, isk income and home. I think FW is a shame because you lose that aspect to fight for your land and your survival.
You, on the other hand it's why you find it so great, you login, gank a few guys (Mostly new players though- not saying it's only "noobs", I'm saying it's mainly new players). When you lose your ship you prolly login a Mission alt or invention alt to do a few isks. Then you logoff, rince and repeat.
My gaming cycle is a bit different as, all my actions are decisive on what will happen the next days, weeks and months.
So, in the end, the question is not what's broken with the game's features, it's what you chose to use, and the way you want to play your game.
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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