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Falkwen
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:12:00 -
[1]
What would you fly and why?
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Spider Silva
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:22:00 -
[2]
cnr easy, it has faster rate of fire and more damage as well, the golem is over rated, its only good aspect is the tractor beam bonus
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Steve Celeste
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:24:00 -
[3]
Not again....
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Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:46:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Steve Celeste Not again....
this... ---------------------------------- Yes... this is my main. Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Nu Wa
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:56:00 -
[5]
I think the reason people are still asking this is because:
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
2) EFT players, the ROF bonus result shows up on EFT, painter damage bonus does not. Paper DPS numbers jump out at you, but practical kill speed from bigger volley does not.
If someone just wants to afk and complete missions with minimum human interaction, then maybe cruise CNR is better.
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Raniss
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Steve Celeste Not again....
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Cheryl Winder
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Steve Celeste Not again....
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Kyanzes
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:34:00 -
[8]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
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MotoMissles
Rim Collection RC Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Steve Celeste Not again....
Try a SEARCH before asking the questions that have already turned the dead horse to a pulp.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:52:00 -
[10]
The Golem is better overall. I guess most of those who rely only on paper dps to argue than the CNR is significantly better, have never tried one. |
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Spider Silva
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Posted - 2008.06.11 15:02:00 -
[11]
ive tried both extensively, the golem is a lot worse damage wise, it fires over 2 seconds slower as well, cnr wins hands down for speed of completion.
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Amastat
Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.06.11 15:04:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Amastat on 11/06/2008 15:05:08 Golem is capable of having a very good tank, while having firepower at the same time. I don't think the CNR is not capable of tanking as well, while being able to deal great damage at the same time - as far as I can see.
CNR can no doubt outperform the Golem by a few hundred DPS, but the Golem will out-tank the CNR with ease too - so you could say its a tradeoff, but bother are closely the same in overall performance. ____________________
"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu |
Dagas Hunter
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Posted - 2008.06.11 17:41:00 -
[13]
If you're going to loot then Golem is the clear choice. More cargo space and better tractor beam. More high slots free. If you don't care about that then CNR might be better.
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JenDen
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.11 18:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Steve Celeste Not again....
so true. to op - smart people go for golem as it earns isk is much faster; lazy people stay with cnr and eventually got ganked as they need pretty expensive stuff to be somehow effective. - Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.11 19:25:00 -
[15]
CNR does better dps.
Golem is about as efficient at killing NPCs, due to it's higher alpha, cargo bay and tractorbeaming.
I would go with a CNR for PvP, and a Golem for PvE. |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.06.11 19:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Steve Celeste Not again....
That's what I was thinking, too, but not for the same reason. I won't say why. |
PR0D AK71V
Mad Hamster Infestation
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:20:00 -
[17]
still waiting for 'my raven was fitted' post
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JenDen
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: James Lyrus I would go with a CNR for PvP
for pvp I'd choose raven. if people see your cnr they'll probably blob you. - Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks |
MotoMissles
Rim Collection RC Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: James Lyrus
I would go with a CNR for PvP, and a Golem for PvE.
Seriously? You'd field a 600 million isk ship in PvP? In fleet situations, maybe, but even then I'd stick with a regular Raven.
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Laou Tzu
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Amastat
CNR can no doubt outperform the Golem by a few hundred DPS, but the Golem will out-tank the CNR with ease too - so you could say its a tradeoff, but bother are closely the same in overall performance.
pure bs, you do just as much if not more dps with the golem
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:00:00 -
[21]
Do you want to.....
1. Spend Billions on a permatanking Gist CNR and make yourself a suicide target 2. Use a t2 fitted golem in a 3 bcu permatank setup and be almost as quick as the gist cnr?
I followed the pattern on this and the Transport ships closely. Nobody was really that instrested in transport ships for afk haling since most people were using a badger etc. Suicide ganking came along and boom - people started wanting them and using them.
When the Golem first came out, lots of people were not that impressed with it compared to a gist fitted CNR, they did not see the point in spending months of training. Suicide gankers came in and ever since then, more and more people are selling their gist cnrs and buying t2 fitted golems for "almost" the same performance in cruise setups, or even 4 bcu bbq torp setups that outclass cnrs.
Golem does have 1 less slot than raven (due to 1 less rig slot) but it performes extreamly well for the AFK mission runner and with a cap booster, can do lvl5's solo. --
Billion Isk Mission |
DrunkMiner
Private Venture Enterprises Safe And Fun Environment
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:00:00 -
[22]
Right i have a golem and a cnr fitted roughly the same and in terms of tank and dps the golem wins hands down... hell in terms of m/s it wins aswell as i can easily fit an ab on a golem and keep a great tank while remaining cap stable. From what i can see yes u can engage more targets with a cnr but all it does is waterdown ur firepower overall so golem > cnr simple.
if at first u don't succeed, go back to EFT
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Opertone
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:44:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Opertone on 12/06/2008 04:46:08 golem >> CNR
1st point - less buttons to click, F1, F2, F3, F4 - F5 for painter compared to F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F7
2nd point - more built in tanking bonuses on Golem
Golem = State Issue Raven in terms of Gun firepower - 25% ROF... ROF on missiles is not noticeable, since your missiles take some time to hit the target and you often get a wasted volley... approx. 10 seconds wasted on the volley fired when the target had already exploded.
Alpha Damage + painter signature - better than DPS overtime, which lets your enemy repair back up.
I am training for skill intensive Torpedo 5, Golem with 45 km long torpedoes.
I did a lot of research and i am sure that my stake is right.
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Jmanis Catharg
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:51:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 12/06/2008 04:54:48 The only reason why anybody would say the Golem isn't as good as the CNR is because they fit Cruise Missiles when the damn thing is built for torps. Doesn't the Target Painter-per-level bonus and awesome PG to chuck on an afterburner make this pretty obvious?/
Quote:
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
Torp setup needs more SP and effort? I trained torps a long time before cruise, and no need to train the one which decreases sig radius of missile explosions. Plus IIRC torps come before cruise missiles in the skill training tree.
Quote: CNR does better dps.
lol wut?
*damn i feel dirty for saying that |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 12/06/2008 04:54:48 The only reason why anybody would say the Golem isn't as good as the CNR is because they fit Cruise Missiles when the damn thing is built for torps. Doesn't the Target Painter-per-level bonus and awesome PG to chuck on an afterburner make this pretty obvious?/
Quote:
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
Torp setup needs more SP and effort? I trained torps a long time before cruise, and no need to train the one which decreases sig radius of missile explosions. Plus IIRC torps come before cruise missiles in the skill training tree.
Quote: CNR does better dps.
lol wut?
*damn i feel dirty for saying that
cruise pilot doesn't need missile bombardment or missile projection trained at all to be effective. also can hit out much farther than a torp pilot.
and yes the cnr will do more dps, however its not that easy to fit with torps. 7 launchers, 5% rof bonus per level, vs 4 launchers with a 100% damage bonus
anyways I would play a rouge
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AKULA UrQuan
Druuge Crimson Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.12 10:13:00 -
[26]
I took a long hard look at both of these ships. Then started training for a kronos. Figured Gallente BS V would be more usefull overall than caldari BS V.
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hellwarrior
Armoured Assassins
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Posted - 2008.06.12 11:20:00 -
[27]
golem does same dps as a normal raven it just has a higher volley amount. overall dps is won by the cnr.
some of you need to learn how to calculate dps, and if that fails EFT warrior it a litte. |
Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2008.06.12 11:32:00 -
[28]
Originally by: hellwarrior golem does same dps as a normal raven it just has a higher volley amount. overall dps is won by the cnr.
some of you need to learn how to calculate dps, and if that fails EFT warrior it a litte.
Thats a pretty bold statement.
I'd like to see your calculations that prove a golem only has the dps of a 'normal raven' because i'm fairly sure your calculations will be laughable.
Make sure to post your setups for both ships, if your above post is anything to go by, your setups should give me a good laugh, and i could use one today.
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Dryxonedes Sae
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:12:00 -
[29]
Golem, 4 launchers, 100% damage bonus, 8 equivalent. Raven, 6 launchers, 25% RoF bonus, 8 equivalent.
Since someone asked to post a setup, and I really cannot be arsed because how to fit either ship is damn basic, let me post some "theoretical" numbers, and apply them to both ships.
Our "Chuck Norris Launcher", has a 10s RoF with applied skills. The "Chuck Norris Round-house Kick" does 100 damage of "uberleet unresistable" damage type. Now lets stick this same launcher on both ships.
On the golem, we get 4 launchers, doing 400 damage, every 10 seconds, rocket science inserted, 40dps. Now, lets apply the 100% damage bonus, gives us 80dps.
Does anyone dispute those numbers? You do? Go back to kindergarten.
Now lets stick it on a T1 raven. 6 launchers, 600 damage, every 10 seconds. Oh my, that'd be 60dps yea? Sweet. Now, lets apply a 25% RoF bonus. Careful, this is where the maths gets tricky. At level 5 (which face it, you should have, it's not THAT long), your RoF drops back to 7.5 seconds. 100 damage, over 7.5 seconds, gives a result of 13.33(33333333) dps, per launcher, multiplied by 6, and hot damn, that's 80dps.
Ok, now just in case someone who thought dps comparisons between a golem and T1 raven we're, let me quote "laughable", I believe both end up at 80dps, assuming for the same modules, the same skill levels. Admittedly, I'm far more comfortable fitting faction gear on a golem than a T1 raven, but that's a different story.
Back to the topic at hand now... Which to fly depends on your personal poison to be honest. A CNR doesn't need to be a 3bil isk fit to eat missions in a hurry, a base line faction fit does fit quite comfortably, performs incredibly (650+dps from a cruise fitted cnr - including drones). If it came to 0.0 ratting, absolutely I'd side with a torp fitted golem, but for running missions in empire, a baseline faction fitted CNR is what I own, and is what I'll keep flying as it does the job faster for me than a golem. As far as the gank risk goes, going faction instead of deadspace or officer reduces it a lot, as the profits are far leaner (sure, it's still there, but it's a lot riskier for the perps). |
Nu Wa
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:41:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Nu Wa on 12/06/2008 12:41:45
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Originally by: Nu Wa
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
Torp setup needs more SP and effort? I trained torps a long time before cruise, and no need to train the one which decreases sig radius of missile explosions. Plus IIRC torps come before cruise missiles in the skill training tree.
Ya didn't read my post through, I was rooting for the torp golem :) The reason I say torp golem require more SP is because in order for Torp setup to work. Tech 2 Torp training is mandatory. Also Missile Projection and bombardment must be high too for javalins to hit that far. You also need range rigs instead of no brainer CCC.
On Cruise setup, T2 isn't required, explosion radiu/speed skills aren't required. You can basically have all skills at level 1 and still run l4 missions comfortably...this is why everybody and their dog have a CNR with CN cruise launchers, because when you are not using t2 ammo, CN launcher requires no skill and is better than T2 launcher even with specialization skill maxed.
THAT'S why I say torp golem require more SP, and many many people are reluctant to go with it. Hence the continue debate on CRUISE CNR vs. CRUISE Golem. For those of us that use torp, it is a no brainer..Golem
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