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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
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Posted - 2012.03.07 15:46:00 -
[1231] - Quote
Malakai Draevyn wrote:Okay, so if it's 1,552,000 SP tied up, then to return everything else to it's current state, I would need either a reimbursement of 6,208,000 SP to reapply to the racial BC / Dessy skills across the board, or recieve all of the racial BC / Dessy skills at V and III respectively (a 'locked down' increase of 4,656,000 SP to my character) as to not take away from what I can already fly at a certain level of skill. Well, the BC V across the board has already been promised, so that just leaves the question of what will happen with your Dessi skill since that part hasn't been completely clarified. However, since the principle is GÇ£if you have it, you keep itGÇ¥, it would only make sense if you're given all Dessies at III as well.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
293
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Posted - 2012.03.07 15:47:00 -
[1232] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Malakai Draevyn wrote:Tippia wrote:Malakai Draevyn wrote:Total SP tied up in generic skills : 8,457,600 No, only 1,552k GÇö BC V and Dessy III. The rest are not being being split up. Some of the T2 role skills will have their prereqs reduced so as to not require lower-tier skills (HACs no longer requires AFs; CSes no longer require HACs and Logis; Recons no longer require CovOps), but that's all. Hrm.... Okay, so if it's 1,552,000 SP tied up, then to return everything else to it's current state, I would need either a reimbursement of 6,208,000 SP to reapply to the racial BC / Dessy skills across the board, or recieve all of the racial BC / Dessy skills at V and III respectively as to not take away from what I can already fly at a certain level of skill. Actually if Dessies and BC's become racial then you'll have to train a ton crap more skills than you'll recuperate. I've got 3 races using Dessie and BC's so this means that whatever SP I get reimbursed, accordingly to your calculations, this means that I'll have to completely train from the scratch 2 dessie/BC races? I don't think CCP didn't figured this out on the contrary, I'm very sure that once again and for the greater good of this game this will be implemented and once again Malcanis law will be applied, this means you'll get more sp to cover the whole races ships you could already fly before.
Go read the details on the third link of the first post. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Alabugin
The Clean Up Crew S E D I T I O N
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 15:48:00 -
[1233] - Quote
"but also reducing Battleship requirement from 5 to 4 for capitals."
*SPRAYS DRINK OUT OF MOUTH ALL OVER SCREEN*
WHAAAAAAAAT??? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
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Posted - 2012.03.07 15:50:00 -
[1234] - Quote
Alabugin wrote:"but also reducing Battleship requirement from 5 to 4 for capitals."
*SPRAYS DRINK OUT OF MOUTH ALL OVER SCREEN*
WHAAAAAAAAT??? GǪeffectively reducing a year-long (at the very least) skill plan by 20 days. The difference is negligible once you include all the stuff required to actually make the capships do anything other than sit very still in space. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
1996
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Posted - 2012.03.07 15:56:00 -
[1235] - Quote
Swearte Widfarend wrote:And as for the Destroyers and Battlecruisers, the ABSOLUTE WORST thing CCP could do would be to reimburse skill points in this situation. It makes the most sense to have the skills remapped based on the combination of Destroyer/Battlecruiser and the Frigate/Cruiser levels.
So if you have Destroyers V and Gallente Frigate V, Amarr Frigate V, Minmatar Frigate 4 and Caldari Frigate 3, you get Gallente Destroyers V, Amarr Destroyers V, Minmatar Destroyers 4 and Caldari Destroyers 3.
This might make some players lose T2 access to a couple variations of Interdictors or Command Ships, but if publicized now, the skills can be trained up to actually give you more ship options come Inferno than less.
Why is it the worst? Your plan doesn't allow people to keep flying the ships they currently can, so it will cause riots and rightly so, while CCP's plan doesn't cause such issues. The only ones who really suffer from it are future new players and they're going to get shafted in all cases just the same. Any current player who wants to gain the benefits from this reinbursement can train the skills before the changes and enjoy the same benefits with the rest of us. |
Malakai Draevyn
Farts Are Funny
6
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Posted - 2012.03.07 15:57:00 -
[1236] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Well, the BC V across the board has already been promised, so that just leaves the question of what will happen with your Dessi skill since that part hasn't been completely clarified. However, since the principle is GÇ£if you have it, you keep itGÇ¥, it would only make sense if you're given all Dessies at III as well.
That would seem to make sense.... either which way, it's still a 4.5m boost to the level of SP that I currently have on this character... Quite honestly, I think I'd prefer the reimbursement of the 6m SP as I dont tend to use Dessy / BC hulls much these days. Then again, beggars can't be choosers. |
Ardent Rage
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.03.07 15:57:00 -
[1237] - Quote
Racial Frig ---> Racial Destroyer ----> Racial Cruiser ----> Racial Battlecruiser ----> Racial Battleship
Easiest way to implement this change 1. Reimburse the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skillpoints + a fixed amount of 6 144 000 skillpoints for everyone. 2. Hand out the new racial Destroyer and Battlecruiser skillbooks for free You'd then have the option to inject and train or sell back to Escrow for close to 4mil ISK (according to a quick calculation)
And then bonus remap for us all! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5424
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:06:00 -
[1238] - Quote
Malakai Draevyn wrote:That would seem to make sense.... either which way, it's still a 4.5m boost to the level of SP that I currently have on this character... Quite honestly, I think I'd prefer the reimbursement of the 6m SP as I dont tend to use Dessy / BC hulls much these days. Then again, beggars can't be choosers. I don't knowGǪ I think that a sudden SP increase is a quite suitable punishment for not having to train the skills.
In fact, come to think of it, I need to find some kind of suitable dummy skill to stick into EFT to check whether the finished Tippia will still fit in the target clone level. It also reminds me of the other interesting change this will bring: we are now given the additional choice of trying to keep our clones lean to keep those costs down GÇö even for older characters, there's a valuable choice to be made that wasn't available before and which brings benefits and drawbacks to each side. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
67
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:09:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Still just seeing a big "**** you, new guy, hope you like the race you picked" |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1314
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:12:00 -
[1240] - Quote
Wow the things people rage about.
Meanwhile, the Federal Reserve is printing more money out of nothing driving up prices as a result of dollar devaluation causing inflation, the USA has SOF in Syria aiding elements of Al Queda while the spokesperson for military intervention was caught cuing fake gunfire in the background during in interview with CNN, the house of representatives is passing laws to limit free speech and already passed the NDAA ensuring you can be detained by the military indefinitely without a trial (no judge no jury) and the G-8 summit was moved off to Camp David indicating that they are planning the next mideast war.
But no, let's all rage about CCP wanting to rebalance ship skills and SP trees.
When I am half starved half worked to death in whatever they call the camp this time around (there will never be concentration camps in the USA, they will simply call them something else and that ploy will actually work), and someone says to me: "Man, CCP messing with those destroyer SPs - really bothers me", I am probably going to rip his face off and stuff it up his ass.
Get a life you morons. |
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Degren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
67
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:13:00 -
[1241] - Quote
This is a spaceship vidya game forum. |
Swearte Widfarend
Mortis Noir.
50
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:30:00 -
[1242] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Swearte Widfarend wrote:And as for the Destroyers and Battlecruisers, the ABSOLUTE WORST thing CCP could do would be to reimburse skill points in this situation. It makes the most sense to have the skills remapped based on the combination of Destroyer/Battlecruiser and the Frigate/Cruiser levels.
So if you have Destroyers V and Gallente Frigate V, Amarr Frigate V, Minmatar Frigate 4 and Caldari Frigate 3, you get Gallente Destroyers V, Amarr Destroyers V, Minmatar Destroyers 4 and Caldari Destroyers 3.
This might make some players lose T2 access to a couple variations of Interdictors or Command Ships, but if publicized now, the skills can be trained up to actually give you more ship options come Inferno than less. Why is it the worst? Your plan doesn't allow people to keep flying the ships they currently can, so it will cause riots and rightly so, while CCP's plan doesn't cause such issues. The only ones who really suffer from it are future new players and they're going to get shafted in all cases just the same. Any current player who wants to gain the benefits from this reinbursement can train the skills before the changes and enjoy the same benefits with the rest of us.
You are completely wrong. If CCP reimburses skill points for the battlecruiser (and destroyer) skills, you will not have enough SP to continue to fly the ships you need. If they simply convert those skills to the racial equivalent of the prerequisites, you will.
SP reimbursement doesn't account for the SP required for multiple racial ship types. If you get reimbursed BC V you get 1,536,000 SP. If you've trained Command Ships, multiple racial cruises to V and fly more than one variant of a command ship (which is quite common for null sec Command Ship pilots) you need anywhere from 2-4 times that many SP to fly the ships you can fly today. It makes no sense to reimburse BC V skill points and the cost of a skill book when many players won't be "flying the ship they can fly today" under that model. If you have the prerequisites to fly the ship (Racial Cruiser 4 and Battlecruiser X) you should get the equivalent of the prerequisite level so that you can continue to fly the ship. Unlike Learning Skills, this isn't a broad removal of skills that don't have a replacement - this is a direct conversion of (up to) 1,536,000 skill points to 6,144,000 skill points (n the example of Battlecruiser V) CCP is changing ship skill trees. How ship skills should be |
Azmodai Draconis
Maekon Mercenaries
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:47:00 -
[1243] - Quote
i can see and understand peoples skill point reservations but my concern is will this be used t reduce the high/mid/low slots of certain ships
yes some ships need rebalance ie drake needs to lose kinetice dmg bonus and shield resist for the missle velocety and rate of fire that was proposed however i dont thing ships need to lose fitting slots |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
387
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:48:00 -
[1244] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Let me ask a specific example.
I have BC trained to V. I fly Hurricane and Drakes perfectly.
Now, here comes the catch:
1) The dev blog has to be fallacious. How is it possible I get free SP reimbursement equivalent to 3 x BC V? I will only believe when I'll see it. If I get 4 x BC V "just because" then it's very discriminating to those who didn't train to BC V by the day the patch goes live.
2) If I don't get the reimbursement but just "the ability to fly" (free skill book + BC trained to 1?), then it's garbage. I fly my BCs perfectly I don't want to waste months just to fly again the same ships I own since years already with the same ability.
Also it clashes with the "you will still fly blah blah".
So, I'd like to know how do they plan to achieve fairness both in case 1 and 2. They have already specifically stated how this will be handled. Stop the QQ and focus on real issues. -Liang
They have already specifically lied or created an huge precedent of unfairness. I have BC V, BS V and so on, on multiple alts. I am not affected at all but I find it extremely bad to set back new players by 70 days or whatever just because a skill book name was not consistent. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Doctor Garamond Trebuchet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:53:00 -
[1245] - Quote
While I am gobsmacked that this does not have a GIANT CHECKBOX on the DELIVERABLES spreadsheet on the project plan or whatever you use, to bring ANY GAMECHANGING IDEA/ITEM to them, wtf are we spending so much effort electing them for??????????????
KUDOS for admitting it and maybe now there will be a GIANT CHECKBOX THAT SAYS CSM Y/N COMPLETE on your workflows so this CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN.
Again, thanks for admitting it, owning it and if I was able to travel I would love to buy you a beer and tap the bottom of it while you chugged it :P
CSM NOT INCLUDED?!:
- I will be honest by saying this is due to my own failure here, please do not blame CCP, or any other employee on that matter. I just plainly and simply forgot to include them in the feedback process; I know that sounds incredibly stupid, unbelievable or even naive, but you have to realize that between various work duties, procedures that have to be followed, internal meetings and reviews, random design emergencies, questions that pop-up from your team, plus being split into different projects that have to be finished in time, you are bound to forget things in the heat of the moment for being tremendously busy.
I will not attempt to justify myself however, this was a professional blunder on top of showing a serious lack of courtesy toward them as individuals, but also as elected representatives of the player base.
Yes, I do fully acknowledge the value they could have brought to this blog before it was released. Trust me, had I remembered about it, this would have been done as it would have saved a lot of confusion here .
That is why, not only as a CCP employee, but also as an individual, I would sincerely like to apologize to every and each member of the CSM I forgot to include here. CSM, feel free to smack me in the back of my head during Fanfest to remind me that being absent-minded has life threatening, rage inducing consequences that should be avoided at all costs.
@rickypedia | official #tweetfleet list manager - just post to #tweetfleet to be added-á message me here or ingame if I somehow miss you. Yes I'm in an npc corp on purpose, its a CAS history thing Yes I live in nullsec. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
7
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Posted - 2012.03.07 16:56:00 -
[1246] - Quote
The ship lines idea sounds awesome. Tiers have been obsolete for years now, so I am glad to hear something is being done about. Having more ships that are actually useful is great. In line with that, it seems strange to want to remove the AF -> HAC -> Field command Ship lineup as well as the others, since it is the same sort of progression.
I am neutral on the idea of making destroyers and battlecruiser skills race specific, I'd rather that not happen, but It wouldn't be overly horrible (though, bear in mind it cuts down a bit on the ships you can fly per skill trained). I Do not think the destroyer and battlecruiser skills should be a requirement to train cruiser and battleship, however. Training for destroyer or battlecruiser could be thought of as specializing in a ship size class. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
387
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 17:03:00 -
[1247] - Quote
Since this is just the beginning of a whole streamlining process, I suppose next in line is splitting the capital ships skill into 4 capital ships training. It will be fun training a 14x skill for multiple races! Few quarters and you are done! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Marc Callan
Steel Soldier's The Freedom Alliance of EvE
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:03:00 -
[1248] - Quote
Thought on the reimbursement solution (at least for BC):
Convert the one BC skill into the four racial BC skills for each character. Then reimburse only those racial BC skills for which the prerequisites are not fulfilled.
IE: if you have Gallente and Minmatar cruiser skills up to 3, but not Caldari or Amarr, and you have BC 4, you get it converted to Gallente BC 4 and Minmatar BC 4, and get reimbursed skill points equivalent to Caldari BC 4 and Amarr BC 4.
In any event, sounds like it's time to train up BC5 so I don't have to train up multiple variations for command ships if/when the split happens. |
GreenSeed
27
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:15:00 -
[1249] - Quote
getting rid of tiers is great news. now how its done might get a few ppl upset...
to those i say, if you have bc to 5 + all support skills... arent you old enough here to know youre expected to take one for the team once in a while?
all i see is good news, the only thing that has me worried is the new modules, of wich no details were given. we already have a few houndreds and unless new Types of modules are introduced, more variations add nothing but clutter.
for starters, how about kill the defender missiles and add a mid slot antimissile module, AND buff the crap out of misiles at the same time?
how about a new set of anti-missile/anti-artyllery frigs via the usage of active defense systems or some kind of aoe smokescreen?
we been mising "anty-blob Warfare" for years now...
if with this new expansion you want to encourage small to mid fleet warfare you need to give small fleets a chance not to get insta-gibbed by 20+ alpha fleets |
Swearte Widfarend
Mortis Noir.
50
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:16:00 -
[1250] - Quote
Marc Callan wrote:Thought on the reimbursement solution (at least for BC):
Convert the one BC skill into the four racial BC skills for each character. Then reimburse only those racial BC skills for which the prerequisites are not fulfilled.
IE: if you have Gallente and Minmatar cruiser skills up to 3, but not Caldari or Amarr, and you have BC 4, you get it converted to Gallente BC 4 and Minmatar BC 4, and get reimbursed skill points equivalent to Caldari BC 4 and Amarr BC 4.
In any event, sounds like it's time to train up BC5 so I don't have to train up multiple variations for command ships if/when the split happens.
Gaming the system for free skillpoints? I'm shocked, shocked to see this.
If you didn't have the skills to fly a particular racial BC, why should you get skill points, ISK, or skill books for them? You should only be getting SP conversion if the prerequisites are met for the skill and the ships that skill unlocks. CCP is changing ship skill trees. How ship skills should be |
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GreenSeed
27
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:16:00 -
[1251] - Quote
deleted |
Tetsel
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
19
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:17:00 -
[1252] - Quote
Malakai Draevyn wrote:Tetsel wrote:Does this change mean: No more Drake/Cane blob during 1 week, while people retrain ? Nice idea ! Hamsters will be happy ! No drake or cane blob for a week or two... No command ships, recons, logistics, dictors, hictors, ceptors, blah blah blah for that same week or ten..... Oooh, yeah, seeing where this is going yet ? ;)
Fair enought, could be fun ! |
Marc Callan
Steel Soldier's The Freedom Alliance of EvE
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:19:00 -
[1253] - Quote
Swearte Widfarend wrote:Gaming the system for free skillpoints? I'm shocked, shocked to see this.
If you didn't have the skills to fly a particular racial BC, why should you get skill points, ISK, or skill books for them? You should only be getting SP conversion if the prerequisites are met for the skill and the ships that skill unlocks.
I dunno. Someone's going to get extra benefits, someone's going to get screwed, somehow, no matter how it shakes out. That's the way of the world.
I wouldn't benefit anyway - I cross-trained for BC's across the board. |
Dilly Dallyer2
Pestis Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.07 17:24:00 -
[1254] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all. As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change. EDIT SO PEOPLE CAN SEE IT:
- New destroyer and battlecruiser skills would be same rank than existing ones
- We have a "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" philosophy, that means properly reimbursing/giving skills not to leave people stranded in ships they could fly before the change. Again, nothing is fixed yet.
MOAR STUFF HERE FOLKS (skills, confusing picture, apology to CSM).
This would suggest to me that CCP do not mind seriously pissing of small sections of the playerbase by massively nerfing the odd ship class at a time but will not do the same when it's a larger proportion of the player base. You need to be consistent with the way ship alterations are carried out. just because you some changed have direct implications on different proportions of the member base does not mean that different thinking should be applied. That is negative reinforcement on specialising on anything in the game because you know that at a drop of the hat CCP can decide to bend you over a desk and shove something large up your rear end.
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Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
36
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:33:00 -
[1255] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.
I wonder how you'll balance that with the need for fairness, i.e. not ending up giving more sp to cross trained people than to racially specialized people. |
space ganelon
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:46:00 -
[1256] - Quote
never mind, nothing to see |
Dilly Dallyer2
Pestis Inc
0
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:46:00 -
[1257] - Quote
Caius Sivaris wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Destroyer and Battlecruiser reimbursement: it has been said before, but allow us to repeat again, that we do not want to cut ships you can already fly. Thus, having BC skill at 5 would mean you get all four variations at 5.
I wonder how you'll balance that with the need for fairness, i.e. not ending up giving more sp to cross trained people than to racially specialized people.
Since when have CCP not penalized someone for specialising.
Keep with the masses, updates are 90+% about keeping the masses happy, if you stand out you are liable to get shot.
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Malissin
The Highwaymen's Society
2
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Posted - 2012.03.07 17:47:00 -
[1258] - Quote
CCP,
Please take this opportunity to make ship manufacturers make sense as well. There's a bullet point in the blog about "Manufacturers, tech 2 schools that specialize in specific roles, like missiles for Khanid or sniping for Ishukone." but the corresponding graphic didn't seem to alter anything. Nagging things that have always bugged me like the Purifier not being made by Khanid, or the general wackiness of the Roden Shipyards line's "Unlike most Gallente ship manufacturers, Roden Shipyards tend to favor missiles..." manufacturing the Enyo and Ares (1 Launcher Hardpoint) or the Phobos and Comet (No Launcher Hardpoints). Actually, it's just sort of odd that a Gallente manufacturer tends to favor missiles, what with none of their ships getting a Missile Bonus...except the Nemesis, which is made by Duvolle Labs.
I don't bring this up from an RP standpoint (although I'm sure that's a concern for some), but rather see the Manufacturers as an opportunity for new players to get an easier idea of what ships they could easily progress through with the most skills in common being made by the same manufacturer. |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
12
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Posted - 2012.03.07 18:00:00 -
[1259] - Quote
Looking forward to this - dropping of 'Tiers' for 'roles'
I think it will enable much better definition of race specific doctrines and, by extension, better balance.
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Maru Utama
Blackwell Industries IMPERIAL LEGI0N
1
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Posted - 2012.03.07 18:05:00 -
[1260] - Quote
Could we get confirmation on if it will be an SP return or will we just receive the appropriate skills? Overall it is a great idea. If you are going to remove BS5 from using caps you should consider making cap4 only needed for using titans :) |
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