Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
NaevaX
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 03:03:00 -
[1]
Question about how margin trading works:
When I place a buy order and margin trading allows me to not put all the required isk in escrow, what happens if for some reason I don't have the isk to cover the "amount to cover"?
Will I go negative isk or will the transaction just fail? In real life with margin trading you'd get a margin call if you were nearing not having enough money to cover, but in eve there doesn't appear to be such a mechanism so I was wondering what would happen.
Thanks
|
Raskor
Crossflow Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 03:21:00 -
[2]
The order will be cancelled. The penalty is basically the broker fees you paid on the portion of the order that could not be fulfilled.
|
Seb Balaak
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 11:46:00 -
[3]
The only real annoying part is, there's no way of tracking which orders dissapeared/failed if you have many orders and move things around a lot, or use it up in production for example. Suddenly you end up short in something.
It would be really nice to have some kind of notification when you fail to meet the margin call. I think CCP doesn't really know all that much about exchanges, they might even think the eve market is more like a store, at least they're treating it as one in some cases. But the way they designed it with buy and sell orders, it's an exchange and should be treated like one.
Eve market is an exchange, use increments and battle the 0.01 ISK phenomena! |
Blazing Fire
Interstellar Operations Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 13:32:00 -
[4]
I have developed a small tool to help me with this. Don't feel like shring it, as it is only of 'in house' usage. Works only on my PC.
But you can use MS Excel or other spreadsheet tool. Just Export the orders, then export them again later an import the two exports in different worksheets. After this, on one of those worksheets add new column which is using the VLOOKUP formula to search for the order ID. I have skipped some details, but I hope you can figure on your own.
Not sure if the item names are available on the orders export. if not, you will have ot get them from the EVE data dump.
Blazing Fire CEO Interstellar Operations Incorporated Corp web site
Recruitment Looking for PvPeers in 0.0 space Looking for Hulk and Mackinaw pilots. We pay for the Ore
Services [Service] Killboard hosting [Service] Forum hosting [Service] Web site hosting [Service] Obelisk for rent [Service] Alliance Creation |
Finideach
|
Posted - 2008.04.25 23:45:00 -
[5]
I love watching Deadliest Catch on the discovery channel. It's just like Eve market trading in some ways. Except instead of crab pots you have buy orders. If you put a crab pot in the right spot - you'll get crabs, and crabs are good isk! The problem is each crab pot costs a lot - so early on you can only put out so many pots - and you're hoping the crabs find your pots. The more pots you have in the right places, the more likely you are to get the crabs.
What margin trading does is reduce the cost of any one buy order you put out - so you can put out a ton more buys.
The key however to successful margin trading is to always have enough cash on hand to cover what you expect to have sold to you until the next time you are paying attention. Converting margin buy orders into real isk is very easy, if you're online.
Simple rough numbers for comparison:
You have 150m with no margin trading and are putting buy orders in at 5m a piece, you can put 30 "buys" out. You have 30 chances for crabs to wander into your pots.
You have 150m with Margin Trading IV. You put out 100m in margined 5m "buys", and you keep about ~30m on hand. You have approximatley 300m in orders out there - or about 60 pots, double the other guy. Your chance of getting the crabs to go into your pots has doubled (location matters always!) As long as you don't get more than 6 orders sold to you at any one time you can manage your on hand to cover the sales by selling the goods or cancelling margined buy orders to convert into isk.
Now back to the discovery channel!
|
Segge Bolled
Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.04.27 09:32:00 -
[6]
So basically Finideach, I should actually want to catch crabs, eh?
|
Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
|
Posted - 2008.04.27 14:06:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Finideach I love watching Deadliest Catch on the discovery channel. It's just like Eve market trading in some ways. Except instead of crab pots you have buy orders. If you put a crab pot in the right spot - you'll get crabs, and crabs are good isk! The problem is each crab pot costs a lot - so early on you can only put out so many pots - and you're hoping the crabs find your pots. The more pots you have in the right places, the more likely you are to get the crabs.
What margin trading does is reduce the cost of any one buy order you put out - so you can put out a ton more buys.
The key however to successful margin trading is to always have enough cash on hand to cover what you expect to have sold to you until the next time you are paying attention. Converting margin buy orders into real isk is very easy, if you're online.
Simple rough numbers for comparison:
You have 150m with no margin trading and are putting buy orders in at 5m a piece, you can put 30 "buys" out. You have 30 chances for crabs to wander into your pots.
You have 150m with Margin Trading IV. You put out 100m in margined 5m "buys", and you keep about ~30m on hand. You have approximatley 300m in orders out there - or about 60 pots, double the other guy. Your chance of getting the crabs to go into your pots has doubled (location matters always!) As long as you don't get more than 6 orders sold to you at any one time you can manage your on hand to cover the sales by selling the goods or cancelling margined buy orders to convert into isk.
Now back to the discovery channel!
Works for modules where you're not going to get a single massive # dropped into your buys. Unfortunately modules are usually fairly low volume, so the usefulness of this skill is inversely proportional to the amount of ISK you have to trade with. Once you're working with several billion and not trading modules to any extent anymore, this skill has very little value, and can potentially hurt you to a great extent, if someone drops say, 5 billion worth of dysprosium into one of your buys and you only have 4 billion available. In that example you could lose 200m (or more) in broker fees. I don't recommend training it, I wish I hadn't.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.04.27 14:50:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich I don't recommend training it, I wish I hadn't.
For a long time I did not train it. Having to have 100% of funds available stunted my growth as a trader so finally I gave in and trained it up. But I still dislike the effect for the reason the good man from TTI said. If I could wish... I would wish that I could choose how much margin I would take upon any purchase order. I could then decide for myself how much risk to market volatility I would assume. of course if wishes were isk...
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Roguehalo
Caldari RH Ship Brokers
|
Posted - 2008.04.27 16:48:00 -
[9]
Margin Trading?
pfft rubbish skill
move along nothing to see here |
Ava Santiago
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 04:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Finideach I love watching Deadliest Catch on the discovery channel. It's just like Eve market trading in some ways. Except instead of crab pots you have buy orders. If you put a crab pot in the right spot - you'll get crabs, and crabs are good isk! The problem is each crab pot costs a lot - so early on you can only put out so many pots - and you're hoping the crabs find your pots. The more pots you have in the right places, the more likely you are to get the crabs.
What margin trading does is reduce the cost of any one buy order you put out - so you can put out a ton more buys.
The key however to successful margin trading is to always have enough cash on hand to cover what you expect to have sold to you until the next time you are paying attention. Converting margin buy orders into real isk is very easy, if you're online.
Simple rough numbers for comparison:
You have 150m with no margin trading and are putting buy orders in at 5m a piece, you can put 30 "buys" out. You have 30 chances for crabs to wander into your pots.
You have 150m with Margin Trading IV. You put out 100m in margined 5m "buys", and you keep about ~30m on hand. You have approximatley 300m in orders out there - or about 60 pots, double the other guy. Your chance of getting the crabs to go into your pots has doubled (location matters always!) As long as you don't get more than 6 orders sold to you at any one time you can manage your on hand to cover the sales by selling the goods or cancelling margined buy orders to convert into isk.
Now back to the discovery channel!
The key here is "next time you plan to be online... if you have any issues with reliable online time (or planning ahead) margin trading is not for you. Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
|
Lord Fitz
Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 11:12:00 -
[11]
If you're not going to be online for quite a long time, buy orders 'at all' are a bad idea, regardless of margin trading, as finding you bought a product for what you thought was 80% of the value that when you return becomes 120% of the new value isn't a great idea.
But yeah, margin trading is great for when you have lots of buy orders of which you expect to only have a small number fill at a time (but you don't know which ones until after they fill). You can of course just keep the amount extra you need to cover in your wallet, though this becomes difficult if you are buying over a number of wallets.
|
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 12:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Petyr Baelich I don't recommend training it, I wish I hadn't.
For a long time I did not train it. Having to have 100% of funds available stunted my growth as a trader so finally I gave in and trained it up. But I still dislike the effect for the reason the good man from TTI said. If I could wish... I would wish that I could choose how much margin I would take upon any purchase order. I could then decide for myself how much risk to market volatility I would assume. of course if wishes were isk...
Now that's an idea I would get behind. The ability to set your escrow amount based on your margin trading.
...he I'd even pay a small fee for it if I had too. |
SencneS
Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 16:16:00 -
[13]
With the right plan and setup you can use margin trading to scam directly in the market.
In places like Jita you can't, but in a more limited trading region you can really generate a lot of ISK with Margin Trading. Although the skill is mildly useful it's also horrible. If you could turn it off at your whim that would be much better, but you can't.
Amarr for Life |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 16:25:00 -
[14]
Mind you I could see a serious complication with this idea of mine, as it stands, in relation to the "need for speed" initiative. Having varying levels of margin/exposure per market order is... a pain in the arse. But, as a much more simplified (and hopefully easier to implement) alternative, having control over how much isk you have in escrow might be a much better solution.
Near the area where it tells you how much you have in escrow there could be a button to "increase" escrow amount. Then each trader could opt to put more isk into market escrow to cover what financial liabilities they feel needs to be covered. (No withdrawals allowed.)
I, for this idea, set it at "increase" though and not "modify". I could readily see problems with going to modify it downward while a purchase gets transacted during the alteration. Of course I'm presuming trouble by this self limitation without having sat down and thought out the full logic of the process.
I just think it's simpler to be able to increase the amount of isk locked away to our satisfaction. So, let the automated system take out the minimum amount of market escrow and we then can choose, of our own free will, how much more isk we wish to lock away.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Pastiche
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 16:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: SencneS With the right plan and setup you can use margin trading to scam directly in the market.
In places like Jita you can't, but in a more limited trading region you can really generate a lot of ISK with Margin Trading. Although the skill is mildly useful it's also horrible. If you could turn it off at your whim that would be much better, but you can't.
I haven't trained up margin trading, but I can't place orders with the full cash amount if I wanted?
|
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 18:16:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ki Anna on 28/04/2008 18:17:23
Originally by: Pastiche I haven't trained up margin trading, but I can't place orders with the full cash amount if I wanted?
Once you train Margin Trading, buy orders will only take a portion of the needed ISK.
Example:
Without Margin Trading, if you place a buy order for 100M in widgets, the 100M will be taken from your wallet immeadiately.
With Margin Trading I, the same order would only take 75M out of your wallet, you need to remember to keep 25M in your wallet. Otherwise, when your ISK runs out, your order will be cancelled.
This is handy if it will take a long time for your order to be filled, as you can use that 25M of other things in the short term, as long as you get it back soon enough. It can be a pain if you forget that you need to keep your balance above 25M for your order to be filled.
The point is that you cannot choose you have the full 100M taken from your wallet when you make the buy order. If you have Margin Trading trained, the full ISK will not be taken until the item is actually sold to you.
The market screen will display how much ISK you need to have in order to complete any outstanding orders, so it is really not that much of a problem as long as you don't normally keep a decent balance floating in your wallet.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.04.28 18:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ki Anna The market screen will display how much ISK you need to have in order to complete any outstanding orders, so it is really not that much of a problem as long as you don't normally keep a decent balance floating in your wallet.
I think the real problem comes from corporate purchasing. The open debt is tied to a wallet and normally that is the player's wallet. With corporate purchasing it is tied to a corporate wallet division. Trouble is that the open debt amount, readily reported in each player's wallet, is not reported for the corporation. Thus you have the situation of each player having to report in how much is held in escrow and how much needs to cover any open debt.
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2008.05.01 13:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ki Anna The market screen will display how much ISK you need to have in order to complete any outstanding orders, so it is really not that much of a problem as long as you don't normally keep a decent balance floating in your wallet.
I think the real problem comes from corporate purchasing. The open debt is tied to a wallet and normally that is the player's wallet. With corporate purchasing it is tied to a corporate wallet division. Trouble is that the open debt amount, readily reported in each player's wallet, is not reported for the corporation. Thus you have the situation of each player having to report in how much is held in escrow and how much needs to cover any open debt.
Exactly... this is one of the largest PITA currently existing with someone in my role. A purchaser supplier and market sales.
I have my own personal sales and of course my corporations sales. Unless I report to my other officers what amount is needed to cover debt for the open orders currently on market they have no way of knowing if that 6bil trit purchase is going to put that particular wallet over the limit and we'll get hammered on an order.
So instead I handle ALL orders to keep things simple... it would be nice to have at least some reporting function at a corporate level for all finance officers to see what amount is out there as a liability. Or and even better solution like yours where I could choose to turn the margin off for that order, or set it off for all corporate orders. |
Midas Man
Caldari Dzark Asylum
|
Posted - 2008.05.01 14:19:00 -
[19]
don't think it will help everyone but if I place an order for large value items and don't want to worry about keeping the isk to cover I transfere the total buy order value to an unused section of my corp wallet and place the order from that wallet. That way i always have the money to cover risky orders and i can continue with my velocity trading from my main wallet.
|
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2008.05.01 19:54:00 -
[20]
I have never trained this skill and I doubt I ever will. More of a hassle then it's worth. I'd always have more money in my wallet then the escrow shortfall would require anyhow... thus making the skill worthless to me.
|
|
Ava Santiago
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.05.01 23:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lord Fitz If you're not going to be online for quite a long time, buy orders 'at all' are a bad idea, regardless of margin trading, as finding you bought a product for what you thought was 80% of the value that when you return becomes 120% of the new value isn't a great idea.
But yeah, margin trading is great for when you have lots of buy orders of which you expect to only have a small number fill at a time (but you don't know which ones until after they fill). You can of course just keep the amount extra you need to cover in your wallet, though this becomes difficult if you are buying over a number of wallets.
Sorry, I was busy - yet 10 days later I find I'd made my expected return on investment. There are NUMEROUS business models that make casual play both easy and effective. My profits are not "maximized" but if I am happy with my return for my time invested, they don't need to be. Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |