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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.03 18:14:00 -
[31]
Edited by: maralt on 03/04/2008 18:19:03
Originally by: Tycho Straun Agreed Greyscale, its a special tool for a special case proposal. I wanted to try to come up with a way to make finding cloaked ship possible, but not probable. And I accepted the two requirements that cloaked ships would be basically unfindable if a player had to go AFK for a bit (under an hour) or if they bothered to actually SS in deep space. Let me study exploration probes a bit and try to come up with a idea for all probes.
Thanks for the discussions.
If cloaking afk is such a problem just have ships uncloak after 4 hours or summat at least that will allow those scouting or in a big fleet territory fight not to be decloaked at a bad time and only cause problems for afk cloakers.
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Vadimik
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:01:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Vadimik on 03/04/2008 19:03:22
Greyscale (and CCP in general), please avoid making cloaks probeable before you deal with local. I beg you.
Unprobeable cloaks are reason #1 atm that keeps local abuse somewhat in check (by making local "unreliable"), and thus allows for a smaller force to survive versus a huge (but mindless) blob.
Making cloaks probeable while keeping the huge "I'm here, guys" neon sign in local is a death sentence to anything but blobing.
If you make cloaks probeable before fixing local, you can just as well say that local-intel is perfectly fine and intended, cause this would be what everyone will see:
local-defining cloaks - nerfed, local-intel - feels fantanstic and is still alive.
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Jonathan Calvert
Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:24:00 -
[33]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale And at this point we've gone from "make cloaked ships probeable" to "make cloaked ships probeable provided you use a special short-range probe which is special-cased in the code", and it doesn't help with AFK cloakers since they're generally in deep space That's not to say it couldn't be part of a solution, it's just that the more you think about this sort of issue the less straightforward it usually gets...
Any reason not to just remove cloaking capability from all ships but covops and recon? IE, 99% reduction in CPU trick.
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Abyss Wyrm
Black-Messa
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:39:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Stationary? The alt can be moving straight and cloaked, being stationary means nothing...
Btw yes. Even if you able to probe co-ops and especialy SB, then you warp to position where it been, he will be simply far away from you. How do then declock it? Drop costly bomb?
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Abyss Wyrm
Black-Messa
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Posted - 2008.04.03 19:49:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tycho Straun
I don't have anything against people who go AFK while cloaked. I do it myself on a daily basis. But I though EVE was about player vs. player and the current setup doesn't allow for cat and mouse hunting of cloaked ships.
the cat cant catch mouse as long as mouse in his hole.
Cat-mouse play start only then mouse came out of it by trying get something for self.
As for example black ops explorer waiting in system cloaked while co-ops finised pinpointing site. You will be able to start catching it only then it uncloak to clear the site and hack cans.
Until then any "cats" should wait til "mouse" uncloak itself.
That would be true cat-mouse play. Nerfing a cloaks would be digging/breaking mouse's holes, and so complitely ruining the game itslef.
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Koyama Ise
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Posted - 2008.04.04 01:54:00 -
[36]
I think afk cloakers ok whatever as long as they're not in my Sov systems. You own space but there can be people in there you can't do anything to. So I was thinking a slow PoS module that can scan out cloaked people. Slow because then it'd be overpowered. Also local isn't the issue with this people, I mean if someone was on the gate and saw it you know they're there but you don't know when they're gone which makes it worse... -------- Yes, I know I'm an alt, what are you going to do about it? |
Kaimon ValDreth
Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.04.04 02:02:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Kaimon ValDreth on 04/04/2008 02:02:24
Originally by: Zirator Best solution would be to change it in such a way that cloaks consume liquid ozone or a cloaking fuel sold by various npc groups.
Of course this should be done in such a way that this penalty doesn't apply to ships that are meant to cloak like cov ops, stealth bombers etc.
^^^ Best idea so far... I love it 99% or 100% reduction in fuel use on cov ops bombers etc... HELL THATS A GREAT IDEA
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Abyss Wyrm
Black-Messa
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Posted - 2008.04.04 23:33:00 -
[38]
Cloaked ships so far have penalty to scan resolution. And that penalty apply even if you put cloak offline. That is enough already to balance cloak fiting an using, even on ships not maided specialy for using the cloak.
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Roland De'chain
Species 5618 Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.04.05 01:08:00 -
[39]
why not just have that when you fit a cloak to a non specialised cloaking ship the cap regen of the ship goes negative and after x number of minutes your caps gone, the cloak fails and you can't activate it straight away
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.05 02:36:00 -
[40]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale One of my concerns with just making cloaked ships probeable with any decent degree of accuracy is the impact it has on using covert ops as fleet warp-in points. If you can get within 15km of the cloaked ship, you can get an interdictor right on top of the incoming fleet with minimal effort. Also, consider the current balance between recon probes and exploration probes, particularly WRT sensor strengths and resulting signal strengths.
So you have to scan the cov-ops out without him knowing it in 30 seconds, warp the cov-ops on their cov-ops. Warp the dictor to the landed cov-ops. And dictor the still cloaked cov-ops all at the right time to catch a warping fleet and without the cov-ops noticing or flying too far for the bubble to miss the fleet?[or your dictor has a probe and it takes longer than 30 seconds]
Doesn't seem like much of a threat to me. Especially since most fleets will not be warping to zero on their cov-ops so either you time it really really really well, in which case congrats.
Or you don't catch the fleet since the fleet will be warping in at 10-100km.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
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Ma Zhiqiang
Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.04.05 16:57:00 -
[41]
Introduce some sort of automatic log off if someone is AFK for longer than 30 minutes. Or an hour.
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Santiago Fahahrri
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Posted - 2008.04.05 18:34:00 -
[42]
Exactly what is the "problem" that is caused by these cloakers? If they are afk they certainly aren't bothering anyone. They pay for the right to be logged in 23x7, just like anyone else.
If they are not afk, they have significant penalties for operating the cloak and they are probably very outnumbered and a small mistake will cost them a ship.
This entire topic sounds like bullies looking for a bigger advantage over the little guy.
Cloaking isn't broken. It doesn't need fixing.
Fly safe.
~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic |
Vadimik
Misty Weave
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Posted - 2008.04.05 19:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Goumindong
... No, see that is the thing, it really is that simple. ...
Yes it is, namely: remove cloaked ships from local, both ways (i.e. cloaker will not see local either).
P.S. This post is only aimed at people who think it's "that simple".
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Abyss Wyrm
Black-Messa
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Posted - 2008.04.05 20:54:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Goumindong
So you have to scan the cov-ops out without him knowing it in 30 seconds, warp the cov-ops on their cov-ops. Warp the dictor to the landed cov-ops. And dictor the still cloaked cov-ops all at the right time to catch a warping fleet and without the cov-ops noticing or flying too far for the bubble to miss the fleet?[or your dictor has a probe and it takes longer than 30 seconds]
How about co-ops seting covert cyno?? And yes, If you warp near the bubble, and your warp vecotor came through bubble, you'll get cuaught in bubble anyway, even if you said warp to 100km.
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Abyss Wyrm
Black-Messa
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Posted - 2008.04.05 20:56:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Exactly what is the "problem" that is caused by these cloakers? If they are afk they certainly aren't bothering anyone. They pay for the right to be logged in 23x7, just like anyone else.
If they are not afk, they have significant penalties for operating the cloak and they are probably very outnumbered and a small mistake will cost them a ship.
This entire topic sounds like bullies looking for a bigger advantage over the little guy.
Cloaking isn't broken. It doesn't need fixing.
Fly safe.
+1
Though i'll say it need a bit of boosting actualy...
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Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:00:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Exactly what is the "problem" that is caused by these cloakers? If they are afk they certainly aren't bothering anyone. They pay for the right to be logged in 23x7, just like anyone else.
If they are not afk, they have significant penalties for operating the cloak and they are probably very outnumbered and a small mistake will cost them a ship.
This entire topic sounds like bullies looking for a bigger advantage over the little guy.
Cloaking isn't broken. It doesn't need fixing.
Fly safe.
When you cloak for 23/7 you invalidate the work that people have done defending space. Because of your complete impunity this removes any form of intel that the defenders can do to protect themselves. As a rule, its pretty much impossible to defend ratters and miners from attack, someone will die with just a small amount of gank before your defense gang will be able to lock and apply logistics.
A good example of this working in the game is when PL ruined the RIT triangle for rise. And i don't mean "they kinda got in the way" i mean, they went there, cloaked, and killed an entire alliances production and morale to the point that some of the most heavily defended and isolated space in the game fell as soon as a modicum of pressure was applied.
The key? There was nothing that the alliance of 1000 could do to kill the cloakers in their systems
Originally by: Vadimik
Originally by: Goumindong
... No, see that is the thing, it really is that simple. ...
Yes it is, namely: remove cloaked ships from local, both ways (i.e. cloaker will not see local either).
P.S. This post is only aimed at people who think it's "that simple".
No, removing cloaked ships from local is stupid, just as stupid as removing local. It skews the game much to far from the defender to the attacker and invalidates any effort anyone has done to secure their space.
Originally by: Abyss Wyrm
Originally by: Goumindong
So you have to scan the cov-ops out without him knowing it in 30 seconds, warp the cov-ops on their cov-ops. Warp the dictor to the landed cov-ops. And dictor the still cloaked cov-ops all at the right time to catch a warping fleet and without the cov-ops noticing or flying too far for the bubble to miss the fleet?[or your dictor has a probe and it takes longer than 30 seconds]
How about co-ops seting covert cyno?? And yes, If you warp near the bubble, and your warp vecotor came through bubble, you'll get cuaught in bubble anyway, even if you said warp to 100km.
Only if you start the warp while the bubble is up and only if your vector goes through the bubble and only if the warp in point is within 150km of the bubble.
The key part is that you have to initiate the warp while the bubble is up in order to be pulled in. So if you are warping to the cov-ops the bubble has to come up at the right time as he says warp, but before people warp, and before he is able to tell everyone to not warp because he is bubbled.
This window is going to be very small. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
Vadimik
Misty Weave
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:42:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Goumindong No, removing cloaked ships from local is stupid, just as stupid as removing local. It skews the game much to far from the defender to the attacker and invalidates any effort anyone has done to secure their space.
Just as stupid as cloaked ships showing up in local and probes scanning down cloaked ships on top of that. It skews the game much to far from the wise pilots to the mindless blobs and invalidates any effort anyone has done to try to stay covert.
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Goumindong
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:53:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Vadimik
Originally by: Goumindong No, removing cloaked ships from local is stupid, just as stupid as removing local. It skews the game much to far from the defender to the attacker and invalidates any effort anyone has done to secure their space.
Just as stupid as cloaked ships showing up in local and probes scanning down cloaked ships on top of that. It skews the game much to far from the wise pilots to the mindless blobs and invalidates any effort anyone has done to try to stay covert.
No, you can still stay covert, you just can't do it while you are AFK. It would take at least two scans and likely 3 scans to pin the location of any non-afk cloaking ship in that time if you cannot find them[they have to decloak to probe] and avoid them [starting the cycle over again], then you don't deserve to be using a cov-ops cloak.
Currently there is pretty much no effort involved in cloaking. I can take any ship and be 100% safe anywhere for any amount of time simply by training one skill and sticking a cloak on whatever ship i want.
Cloaked ships not showing up in local would destroy all low-sec and 0.0 belt based production. It would destroy all pvp that did not include cloaked ships. It would make recons so mind numbingly overpowered its all anyone would fly.
No, cloaking is stupidly easy and provide utterly ridiculous benefits to the person using it. It makes for a bad game and should be nerfed to hell and back.
Eve is not a single player game that just happens to have other participants, eve is a game that has many different players doing many different things and you need to carefully balance between those options.
The inability to defend yourself while mining or ratting in any way is unacceptable[cloaks not appearing in local].
The ability of any ship to be 100% safe from everything while logged on is unacceptable[cloaks not being able to be scanned]. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url] |
Vadimik
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Posted - 2008.04.05 23:07:00 -
[49]
Quote: No, you can still stay covert, you just can't do it while you are AFK.
Yes, covert. With my face shining up in local. Sure.
Quote: Currently there is pretty much no effort involved in cloaking. I can take any ship and be 100% safe anywhere for any amount of time simply by training one skill and sticking a cloak on whatever ship i want.
Currently there is pretty much no effort involved in docking. I can take any ship and be 100% safe at any station for any amount of time simply by training no skills and docking whatever non-supercap ship I want.
Quote: No, cloaking is stupidly easy and provide utterly ridiculous benefits to the person using it. It makes for a bad game and should be nerfed to hell and back.
No, logging off is stupidly easy and provide utterly ridiculous benefits to the person using it. It makes for a bad game and should be nerfed to hell and back.
Quote: The ability of any ship to be 100% safe from everything while logged on is unacceptable[cloaks not being able to be scanned].
Ever heard of docking and POS'es ?
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AKULA UrQuan
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Posted - 2008.04.05 23:07:00 -
[50]
Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 05/04/2008 23:08:22 First off. Covert ops frigates are one of the harder ships to probe out when they're uncloaked. Gets better when the pilot (me for example) does something goofy like toss in a T2 backup array in a low slot. Good luck probeing him then much less getting a zero error scan.
Second. Any competent covert pilot isn't going to be sitting still at 0m/s when AFK. He's going to be putting along on normal drives in a random direction 6+ AUs away from any solar object.
Third. WTZ isn't. It has an error range of -/+2,500 meters best I can tell. If you don't decloak him on warpin now what? If the target is moveing you get to try again.
Last. Most of these, so called, AFK coverts arn't as AFK as you would like to think.
So yeah. Allow for probeing cloakers. Only people that are getting caught are the clueless ones. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.05 23:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Vadimik
Ever heard of docking and POS'es ?
Yes, ever heard of sieging and dreadnoughts?
None of these things are invulnerable, you always have the option of getting together a force and knocking it down and taking it for yourself.
You cannot do the same to cloaks.
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 05/04/2008 23:08:22 First off. Covert ops frigates are one of the harder ships to probe out when they're uncloaked. Gets better when the pilot (me for example) does something goofy like toss in a T2 backup array in a low slot. Good luck probeing him then much less getting a zero error scan.
Second. Any competent covert pilot isn't going to be sitting still at 0m/s when AFK. He's going to be putting along on normal drives in a random direction 6+ AUs away from any solar object.
Third. WTZ isn't. It has an error range of -/+2,500 meters best I can tell. If you don't decloak him on warpin now what? If the target is moveing you get to try again.
Last. Most of these, so called, AFK coverts arn't as AFK as you would like to think.
So yeah. Allow for probeing cloakers. Only people that are getting caught are the clueless ones.
Precisely There is a damn lot of effort involved in not just fueling POS, but sieging the owners territory, putting your own down, and keeping them alive.
And when you are at these POS you are vulnerable to scouting, and when in a station you are at an easy choke with no access to your directional scanner and overview.
Quote:
Yes, covert. With my face shining up in local. Sure.
Yup. Sorry, but imperfect role play is the price payed for balance.
Quote:
No, logging off is stupidly easy and provide utterly ridiculous benefits to the person using it. It makes for a bad game and should be nerfed to hell and back.
You cannot actively scan and participate in the game when logged off.
Now, if you want to have a 30 second timer on decloaking, be unable to use local, all chat channels, your overview, your entire user interface, the directional scanner, all modules, and ping as "cloaked" on peoples user lists, then its about a right comparison.
Vote Goumindong for CSM |
Samuel Gompers
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Posted - 2008.04.06 05:15:00 -
[52]
i'd suggest one of two options...
either allow cloakers to be probed with no restrictions, but give cov ops frigs immunity to probing so as to give them a role as fleet warp-in
or allow probing of all cloakers, but limit the precision to the grid that the cloaker is on and no closer, so you can see roughly where they are and what they're up to, but not allow them to be auto-decloaked by a prober warping on top of them
or maybe allow probing of cloaked ships as per one of the two above methods, but by pos mods only
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Vadimik
Misty Weave
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Posted - 2008.04.06 10:41:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Vadimik on 06/04/2008 10:41:43
Quote: Yes, ever heard of sieging and dreadnoughts?
None of these things are invulnerable, you always have the option of getting together a force and knocking it down and taking it for yourself.
I see what you did there.
But cloaks aren't invulnerable either, it's the cloaked ship you can't do anything about.
Same story with docked or POS'ed ship.
You can't do anything unless he undocks.
You can't do anything unless he uncloaks (well, or unless you wait for after DT when he will be forced to log on and be cloakless for some time thereafter).
You can't do anything unless he leaves POS field (well, or unless he sits there for 1,5-2 days it takes to take the POS down).
Quote: Yup. Sorry, but imperfect role play is the price payed for balance.
Ok, if keeping you covert is a kind of "RP side-effect" of a covert ops cloak, what's it's "main effect" ? Cause it does not hide you from local... And you want it not to hide you from probes either. What would it be then, an ultimate D-scanner foiler ?
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.06 10:53:00 -
[54]
This is just another try for carebears and ppl who travel in 0.0 without proper protection to make it safer and has nothing to do with afk cloakers. Its about giving ppl the ability to probe out hostile scouts on gates and cloaking gangs camping systems looking for kills. The cloakers who go afk for maybe a RL issue are no threat and would be at best an easy kill for prober's while an active player would be able to warp off.
Cloaks already have enough negative effects and do not need to be probable unless your a carebear looking for easier travel through low sec or 0.0 or a crappy pvper looking for easy kills.
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Lem2J
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Posted - 2008.04.06 11:38:00 -
[55]
Just add a reactivation timer or have cloaks.. e.g. they need to go offline after an hour, for recalibration.
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Rosur
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Posted - 2008.04.06 11:41:00 -
[56]
How about when useing a cloak it gives u an aggresion timer so u deicied to log of and uncloak then u stay in space for 15mins gives (as u have an aggression timer) then defender if they are paying attention has a chance to probe them down but if the cloaker is cleaver he will uncloak in a safe 15mins before he logs of so cant be probed down. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
methodmo
Free Lapland The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.04.06 11:52:00 -
[57]
afk cloakers=there r no solutions
however if u change the cpu value (fitting) on the cloaks then u have a good start allready...nothing (except recons/cov ops/stealthbombers/cov ops bs) can fit cloaks anymore :)
now that would be a good change there r tomany ppl fitting cloaks on haulers/frigs/cruisers/bs etc...
:)
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Abyss Wyrm
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Posted - 2008.04.06 17:34:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Goumindong
When you cloak for 23/7 you invalidate the work that people have done defending space. Because of your complete impunity this removes any form of intel that the defenders can do to protect themselves. As a rule, its pretty much impossible to defend ratters and miners from attack, someone will die with just a small amount of gank before your defense gang will be able to lock and apply logistics.
A good example of this working in the game is when PL ruined the RIT triangle for rise. And i don't mean "they kinda got in the way" i mean, they went there, cloaked, and killed an entire alliances production and morale to the point that some of the most heavily defended and isolated space in the game fell as soon as a modicum of pressure was applied.
The key? There was nothing that the alliance of 1000 could do to kill the cloakers in their systems
Originally by: Vadimik
Originally by: Goumindong
... No, see that is the thing, it really is that simple. ... [/quote Guerrillas and saboteurs exist in real life, why they shouldnt be allowed in EVE? I actualy dont like the idea that cyno jammer able to jamm covert cyno. Would be more sence if covert cyno will be able to operate under in system wit cyno jammer.
Quote: No, removing cloaked ships from local is stupid, just as stupid as removing local. It skews the game much to far from the defender to the attacker and invalidates any effort anyone has done to secure their space.
It will make game more hardcore like, and less arcade. I dont wont any changes thats make EVE like WoW (for example). Removing cloaker from local will be great change. IMHO stealth wars should be boosted alot. Adapt to survive...
Quote: Only if you start the warp while the bubble is up and only if your vector goes through the bubble and only if the warp in point is within 150km of the bubble.
If dictor will drop bubble (or HiC start it) at close proximity to co-ops, the fleet vector will go through bubble anyway, no matter from what location they warp, and so everyone will be caught in bubble anyway
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Abyss Wyrm
Industrial Trade Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.06 17:42:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Goumindong
None of these things are invulnerable, you always have the option of getting together a force and knocking it down and taking it for yourself.
Stations not invulnerable?) And how many stations you destroyed already?
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Abyss Wyrm
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Posted - 2008.04.06 17:53:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Lem2J Just add a reactivation timer or have cloaks.. e.g. they need to go offline after an hour, for recalibration.
Eh, so if i just uncloak to drop a probe, i need to wait 1h for reactivation? X_X
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