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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.24 22:18:00 -
[1]
I need to liquidate some of my assets and with some regret I have come to the conclusion I need to sell my bonds/shares.
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First to go is my treasured Fury Bank High Interest Account. Anyone interested in the offer should already know what this is; A fairly high return, reliable bond with rock-solid management. Also, no new high interest accounts have been allowed for some time and recently deposits are also capped out, meaning the accounts are a fairly rare commodity what with so few willing to part with them.
I would like to hold on to some of my HIA isk, but since Fury Banker/Fastlearner doesn't use the share system I've decided to sell the entire account to make the transfer a bit smoother. I have already informed Fastlearner I might have to do this and I've been given the green light to transfer the account to another investor.
The account in question was started on Oktober 6 2007 at 1.5 bil and given the 0.0025 % interest per day (translating into 7.778 % interest per 30 day month) should now (march 24th) be up to about 2 287.45 (roughly 2.3 bil) isk. To make sure my numbers are correct I've asked Fury Banker to inform me of my exact balance to ensure the buyer knows exactly what he or she is buying. I will be updating the post once I receive his reply.
Given the high interest and stable management I consider 3 bil to be a fair price for the lot, which is about what FRPB was going for before Ionia went awol. Note that Fury bank pays better than FRPB did.
To summarize: Fury Bank HIA account balance: 2 287 450 461.30 isk Price: 3 billion isk
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Next batch of shares (or bonds really) to go are my shares in LV Management. Run by another trusted and well respected regular on the MD forums this is yet another investment as stable as they come in a share/bond context. Monthly interest for this bond is at 5% with an original worth of 10 million isk per bond. I have 200 shares to part with (will be keeping 50 because I can still afford to have it invested) and I'm willing to let them go for 11.75 million isk per share (preferably all to the same investor to save me from micromanaging the sale).
So numbers are as follows: Number of LV Management shares: 200 Original worth per share: 10 mil Selling price per share: 11.75 mil (best sell order on resx is 12.5 mil) Total price for 200 shares: 2.35 bil
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I also happen to have 1500 shares in FRPB, but since Ionia is missing I'm guessing any offers for these will be too low compared to the off chance that Ionia returns to make good his responsibility to his investors.
On another note, anyone else waiting for those RDIR profits?
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2008.03.24 22:42:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ambo on 24/03/2008 22:43:02 I am intersted in the fury account... however. Fury HIAs have been closed for quite some time. If, by buying your account, I would acutally have the ability to deposit more in this account (and full and exclusive access obviously...) then I would do so. I'd need confirmation from Fury banker first though since this is somewhat unorthadox.
Furthermore. The is no way in hell I'd pay 3 bil for 2.228 bil. I'll give you 2.5 bil if fury banker confirms I will be able to deposit more at the normal, full rate of return. Othersie, I'm not interested.
edited for spelling
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Ayami Sakura
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Posted - 2008.03.24 22:54:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ambo Edited by: Ambo on 24/03/2008 22:43:02 I am intersted in the fury account... however. Fury HIAs have been closed for quite some time. If, by buying your account, I would acutally have the ability to deposit more in this account (and full and exclusive access obviously...) then I would do so. I'd need confirmation from Fury banker first though since this is somewhat unorthadox.
Furthermore. The is no way in hell I'd pay 3 bil for 2.228 bil. I'll give you 2.5 bil if fury banker confirms I will be able to deposit more at the normal, full rate of return. Othersie, I'm not interested.
edited for spelling
FRPB went for a 30 percent markup, and they had worse interest. I'm sorry you don't like the pricing, but it's what I consider a fair price. Your interest has been noted however.
With regards to the deposit question: No new HIA accounts are allowed, and this much you already knew. The the latest post in the Fury Holdings thread also informs us that no new deposits are allowed into old HIA accounts, but that all existing accounts and their balances will be honored.
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Cogwheel
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Posted - 2008.03.24 22:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ambo Furthermore. The is no way in hell I'd pay 3 bil for 2.228 bil.
Seems a fair price to me given the yield... It's about in-line with what I'd expect of the RL market, assuming a 1/12 time scale. Not that I'm in a position to take advantage of it :P
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.03.24 23:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ayami Sakura
Originally by: Ambo Edited by: Ambo on 24/03/2008 22:43:02 I am intersted in the fury account... however. Fury HIAs have been closed for quite some time. If, by buying your account, I would acutally have the ability to deposit more in this account (and full and exclusive access obviously...) then I would do so. I'd need confirmation from Fury banker first though since this is somewhat unorthadox.
Furthermore. The is no way in hell I'd pay 3 bil for 2.228 bil. I'll give you 2.5 bil if fury banker confirms I will be able to deposit more at the normal, full rate of return. Othersie, I'm not interested.
edited for spelling
FRPB went for a 30 percent markup, and they had worse interest. I'm sorry you don't like the pricing, but it's what I consider a fair price. Your interest has been noted however.
With regards to the deposit question: No new HIA accounts are allowed, and this much you already knew. The the latest post in the Fury Holdings thread also informs us that no new deposits are allowed into old HIA accounts, but that all existing accounts and their balances will be honored.
Then you basically have no chance to get 3b for that 2.228b account. Not all that many people purchased FRPB for that. Good luck selling it, but this isn't a sales forum, so you're going to get more discussion then sales here.
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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.24 23:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Ayami Sakura
Originally by: Ambo Edited by: Ambo on 24/03/2008 22:43:02 I am intersted in the fury account... however. Fury HIAs have been closed for quite some time. If, by buying your account, I would acutally have the ability to deposit more in this account (and full and exclusive access obviously...) then I would do so. I'd need confirmation from Fury banker first though since this is somewhat unorthadox.
Furthermore. The is no way in hell I'd pay 3 bil for 2.228 bil. I'll give you 2.5 bil if fury banker confirms I will be able to deposit more at the normal, full rate of return. Othersie, I'm not interested.
edited for spelling
FRPB went for a 30 percent markup, and they had worse interest. I'm sorry you don't like the pricing, but it's what I consider a fair price. Your interest has been noted however.
With regards to the deposit question: No new HIA accounts are allowed, and this much you already knew. The the latest post in the Fury Holdings thread also informs us that no new deposits are allowed into old HIA accounts, but that all existing accounts and their balances will be honored.
Then you basically have no chance to get 3b for that 2.228b account. Not all that many people purchased FRPB for that. Good luck selling it, but this isn't a sales forum, so you're going to get more discussion then sales here.
I am well aware of the nature of this forum, Shadarle. I'm not aversed to discussion either, even though I'm somewhat limited by the fact that English is my second language.
That said, selling shares and bonds on this forum is not unprecedented and given the nature of the commodity and the expected clientelle I'm surprised that you find it odd that I would announce it here.
Nevertheless, dicussion is welcome in here as I know it's what most of us enjoy. That said, actual offer are even more welcome. I'm going to bed now as I have an early morning tomorrow but I'll check up on the thread once I get home tomorrow.
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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.24 23:17:00 -
[7]
In addition, it's not 2.228 bil, it's 2.287
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cosmoray
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.03.25 00:38:00 -
[8]
If I do the maths correct:
If I purchase your 2.28B HIA account for 3B it will take 8 months to reach the same value as putting 3B in a standard EBank account at 3%.
If I purchase the EBank bonds at 3.5% it would take 9 months to catch up.
If I invested the 3B in various good IPO's and averaged around 7% in dividends it would take 11 months to get the same return.
Why should I buy your HIA at such a huge premium and wait for a minimum of 8 months to get any "real" return?
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Shadarle
LI0NS Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.25 00:40:00 -
[9]
Originally by: cosmoray If I do the maths correct:
If I purchase your 2.28B HIA account for 3B it will take 8 months to reach the same value as putting 3B in a standard EBank account at 3%.
If I purchase the EBank bonds at 3.5% it would take 9 months to catch up.
If I invested the 3B in various good IPO's and averaged around 7% in dividends it would take 11 months to get the same return.
Why should I buy your HIA at such a huge premium and wait for a minimum of 8 months to get any "real" return?
Or you could just get 5.x% from a regular fury account instead of the 7.x% from the HIA... would take a VERY long time to recoup that 775 mil isk on a 2.2 bil valued investment.
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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 03:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: cosmoray If I do the maths correct:
If I purchase your 2.28B HIA account for 3B it will take 8 months to reach the same value as putting 3B in a standard EBank account at 3%.
If I purchase the EBank bonds at 3.5% it would take 9 months to catch up.
If I invested the 3B in various good IPO's and averaged around 7% in dividends it would take 11 months to get the same return.
Why should I buy your HIA at such a huge premium and wait for a minimum of 8 months to get any "real" return?
Insomnia ftl...
I'm afraid you might have forgotten about compunded interest or something similar. The correct figures show a gain compared to the ebank account after only 6 months. If you need me to explain the maths in detail later I might just oblige, but for now this will have to do:
1.0025^30 = monthly interest for HIA
(1.0025^30)^6 months * 2.28745 bil = 3.585422 bil 1.03^6 months * 3 bil = 3.582157
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.25 03:43:00 -
[11]
I guess it's still quite a long time just to break even. I agreed with someone above who valued them at 2.5b. Frankly I would probably pay that but nothing more.
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Shadarle
LI0NS Industries
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Posted - 2008.03.25 03:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ayami Sakura
Originally by: cosmoray If I do the maths correct:
If I purchase your 2.28B HIA account for 3B it will take 8 months to reach the same value as putting 3B in a standard EBank account at 3%.
If I purchase the EBank bonds at 3.5% it would take 9 months to catch up.
If I invested the 3B in various good IPO's and averaged around 7% in dividends it would take 11 months to get the same return.
Why should I buy your HIA at such a huge premium and wait for a minimum of 8 months to get any "real" return?
Insomnia ftl...
I'm afraid you might have forgotten about compunded interest or something similar. The correct figures show a gain compared to the ebank account after only 6 months. If you need me to explain the maths in detail later I might just oblige, but for now this will have to do:
1.0025^30 = monthly interest for HIA
(1.0025^30)^6 months * 2.28745 bil = 3.585422 bil 1.03^6 months * 3 bil = 3.582157
At least you will agree that after 6 months this is exactly the same as a 3% investment, thus it is still far worse than a 5% investment, such as in the standard fury bank accounts.
You expect people to buy something that will earn them a loss for 9 months compared to another more accessible alternative? Anyone who does that please see me, I have a bridge for sale.
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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 03:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shadarle
Or you could just get 5.x% from a regular fury account instead of the 7.x% from the HIA... would take a VERY long time to recoup that 775 mil isk on a 2.2 bil valued investment.
What you fail to recognize Shadarle, and I can only assume this is because you want to baisse the price, is that the bonds have an estimated value as well as an intrinsic one. Just like stocks in real life they aren't valued solely at the companys current asset level, but at the expected performance of the company.
I'll put it into a more familiar form to explain it to you better if you really don't understand what I'm getting at:
A T2 BPO is purchased for 3 bil. Once you decide to liquidate the BPO you can sell it for what people value it at. Because it is a pretty good investment with little effort involved (for T2 BPOs this isn't quite as true as with a bond of course, because with a bond you have to do nothing) people will value it higher than 0 isk (which is its intrinsic value since I don't think NPCs buy T2 BPOs).
So when you come to the forum someone will hopefully buy it knowing that they will make money owning it. If instead Shadarle claims the T2 BPO is really worth 0 isk and everyone believes him you are stuck with the BPO, even if you want that shiny mothership/faction fitted CNR/other shiny thing instead. With this bond you could always cash in at the intrinsic value instead of its estimated value which, instead of 0 isk, is the amount of isk deposited in your HIA. This intrinsic value has become equal to the original estimated value after only 3 months.
Hence, the isk used when purchasing a T2 BPO or indeed a HIA is not lost unless people value the product lower, in which case the HIA has a bottom value of the current isk deposited. I really don't understand how people can pay 1-2 years profit for a T2 BPO that is affected by invention and unpredictable CCP modifications and then blink in confusion when a 0.0025% per day interest investment with an intrinsic value is valued at 1.3 times the intrinsic value.
Also, I would like it to be noted that the figures are based on account balance that is increasing as we speak, so all these wonderful figures are based on the fact that you parted with your isk on the 24th (meaning of course that it is an even better investment than the figures account for).
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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic I guess it's still quite a long time just to break even. I agreed with someone above who valued them at 2.5b. Frankly I would probably pay that but nothing more.
The estimated value is of course what someone on the market is willing to pay and can be debated. To each his own I guess. Some people just feel that a thing is more real if it's a blue icon in their hangar instead of some figures in their spreadsheet.
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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Ayami Sakura
Originally by: cosmoray If I do the maths correct:
If I purchase your 2.28B HIA account for 3B it will take 8 months to reach the same value as putting 3B in a standard EBank account at 3%.
If I purchase the EBank bonds at 3.5% it would take 9 months to catch up.
If I invested the 3B in various good IPO's and averaged around 7% in dividends it would take 11 months to get the same return.
Why should I buy your HIA at such a huge premium and wait for a minimum of 8 months to get any "real" return?
Insomnia ftl...
I'm afraid you might have forgotten about compunded interest or something similar. The correct figures show a gain compared to the ebank account after only 6 months. If you need me to explain the maths in detail later I might just oblige, but for now this will have to do:
1.0025^30 = monthly interest for HIA
(1.0025^30)^6 months * 2.28745 bil = 3.585422 bil 1.03^6 months * 3 bil = 3.582157
At least you will agree that after 6 months this is exactly the same as a 3% investment, thus it is still far worse than a 5% investment, such as in the standard fury bank accounts.
You expect people to buy something that will earn them a loss for 9 months compared to another more accessible alternative? Anyone who does that please see me, I have a bridge for sale.
I'm afraid I own bridges (read stocks) in real life. I've bought those bridges (read stocks) because in the long run they pay more than rowing boats (read bank account interest).
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Ayami Sakura
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.03.25 04:16:00 -
[16]
I must ask Shadarle, if you are so aversed to valuing bonds higher than their orignial monetary purchasing price how come you wanted more than 100% initial cost for you FRPB shares even after it was abundantly clear that something was amiss with Ionia? Was it the prospect of an unpaid dividend that might be paid after the sale or something else?
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Raskor
Crossflow Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ayami Sakura I must ask Shadarle, if you are so aversed to valuing bonds higher than their orignial monetary purchasing price how come you wanted more than 100% initial cost for you FRPB shares even after it was abundantly clear that something was amiss with Ionia? Was it the prospect of an unpaid dividend that might be paid after the sale or something else?
In light of Ionia vanishing off the face of the map, and Eefrit wanting to change the rules after the fact, long term bonds are not exactly in a favorable light right now.
Also you have to consider that with the Fury HIA, that isk compounds silently. You don't actually see it until you make a withdrawal. If FL were to vanish, you would have nothing to show for on that HIA account. With a regular account at least you got some interest in your wallet.
In light of the current climate, it is extremely unlikely you will find someone willing to pay a price premium equal to 3-4 months interest. I will be quite surprised if you get a serious offer at or above 2 months interest.
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FastLearner
Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.25 05:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ambo Edited by: Ambo on 24/03/2008 22:43:02 I am intersted in the fury account... however. Fury HIAs have been closed for quite some time. If, by buying your account, I would acutally have the ability to deposit more in this account (and full and exclusive access obviously...) then I would do so. I'd need confirmation from Fury banker first though since this is somewhat unorthadox.
Furthermore. The is no way in hell I'd pay 3 bil for 2.228 bil. I'll give you 2.5 bil if fury banker confirms I will be able to deposit more at the normal, full rate of return. Othersie, I'm not interested.
edited for spelling
You wouldn't be able to deposit more - no newHIAdeposits are accepted at all. You would, of course, have full and exclusive access to the balance - though the 1 week notice for withdrawals WOULD be enforced for any withdrawal requests made in the first week of ownership. The preivous times I've transferred balances it's been because the character was being sold. The delays on immediate withdrawals is to offer some safety net in case someone's account is hacked.
I can confirm that Ayumi does have the balance stated.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:01:00 -
[19]
What happens if Fastlearner opens up more HIA's tomorrow? You have bought stocks at grossly overstated prices. Same deal if Fastlearner closes them down tomorrow. You may get your value back but you would lose almost 1 billion isk in the process through no fault of Fastlearner.
Then there's the disapearance etc possibility. Long-term bonds/stocks are something people are treading on very carefully after a lot of the recent issues occuring. To suggest someone buy a stock that doesn't actually break even for 8 months or so is quite dangerous.
With a T2 bpo (using your analogy) it's different as that bpo generally always has a value. It won't disapear from your hangar (scam). It does run the risk of devaluing a little (HIA's closing down), but it always holds a significant value (short of CCP changing bpo's to max run bpcs).
If I had to choose which was more likely. CCP changing T2 bpo's or something occuring with the HIA's I am sure you would all agree which was more likely. This is not a dig at Furybank at all, I would say the exact same for EBANK.
Anyway as you say, the item is worth what someone will pay for it. If someone wants to pay 3b for that account then by all means. I don't think anyone could say they wouldn't sell an item over it's value if they could. I just believe you might be setting your expectations too high, in which case this thread would be far wiser in the MD forums where people blindly buy things without researching them properly.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:40:00 -
[20]
Newsflash!
I have 6,4bill worth of LVM for sale!
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Ayami Sakura
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic What happens if Fastlearner opens up more HIA's tomorrow?
What happens if he closes low-interest accounts instead?
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Then there's the disapearance etc possibility. Long-term bonds/stocks are something people are treading on very carefully after a lot of the recent issues occuring. To suggest someone buy a stock that doesn't actually break even for 8 months or so is quite dangerous.
I can understand the psychological aspect. However, I tend to weigh in the risks before the fact, not after. Maybe I've got thicker skin, maybe I'm bullheaded, I don't know. I value these bonds just as highly as I did before Ionia vanished.
It is interesting that the alternative investment with good interest carries exactly the same risks, meaning you would only lose out if indeed Fastlearner gains the ability to make a higher percentage profit with even more isk and opens more accounts (I know I find this more unlikely than him limiting low-interest accounts) or runs of with your isk.
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic With a T2 bpo (using your analogy) it's different as that bpo generally always has a value. It won't disapear from your hangar (scam). It does run the risk of devaluing a little (HIA's closing down), but it always holds a significant value (short of CCP changing bpo's to max run bpcs).
Tell that to the pore sods that bought Eos BPOs before the nerf. Poor bastards, but I guess there are worse examples, I just don't care to dig them up. CCP likes their nerfbat I'm afraid. Quite possible they are thinking about changing out BPOs too, although I cincerely hope they will let it phase out itself with BPO owners quiting the game or the invention market driving the prices to suitable levels.
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic Anyway as you say, the item is worth what someone will pay for it. If someone wants to pay 3b for that account then by all means. I don't think anyone could say they wouldn't sell an item over it's value if they could. I just believe you might be setting your expectations too high, in which case this thread would be far wiser in the MD forums where people blindly buy things without researching them properly.
Obviously I seem to be valuing the HIA higher than some. If there really is no interest in this investment I guess I'm going to have to liquidate other asests and change my trading strategy. Right now I have E-bank isk that will be put to good use instead of being used as a failsafe for freak occurances where all buy orders could go through sending me into the red. This is an area where an E-bank account truely shines (free advertising, yay) even though the interest is really sad. I guess my pvping main is going to be a sad T1 ship panda for a while as well.
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Ayami Sakura
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Newsflash!
I have 6,4bill worth of LVM for sale!
Lol, that is news to me. I'm going to edit the original post to reflect the availability.
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Athre
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Posted - 2008.03.25 06:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ayami Sakura Edited by: Ayami Sakura on 25/03/2008 06:52:18
On another note, anyone else waiting for those RDIR profits?
I can only confirm long term liquidation of assets continues. I see sales every single day.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz
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Posted - 2008.03.25 07:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ayami Sakura Right now I have E-bank isk that will be put to good use instead of being used as a failsafe for freak occurances where all buy orders could go through sending me into the red. This is an area where an E-bank account truely shines (free advertising, yay) even though the interest is really sad.
Yep that was the idea behind EBANK. Not to offer the best returns, or even promote EBANK as something that ever competes with IPO's or Bonds, simply a place people can put their idle isk. The services that we provide currently are fairly good but when the stock exchange, RIPO's and affiliates system comes to fruition I think we will really see how valuable those EBANK accounts will be (and interest rates will be the last thing on people's minds)
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Ambo
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Posted - 2008.03.25 08:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: FastLearner
Originally by: Ambo Edited by: Ambo on 24/03/2008 22:43:02 I am intersted in the fury account... however. Fury HIAs have been closed for quite some time. If, by buying your account, I would acutally have the ability to deposit more in this account (and full and exclusive access obviously...) then I would do so. I'd need confirmation from Fury banker first though since this is somewhat unorthadox.
Furthermore. The is no way in hell I'd pay 3 bil for 2.228 bil. I'll give you 2.5 bil if fury banker confirms I will be able to deposit more at the normal, full rate of return. Othersie, I'm not interested.
edited for spelling
You wouldn't be able to deposit more - no newHIAdeposits are accepted at all. You would, of course, have full and exclusive access to the balance - though the 1 week notice for withdrawals WOULD be enforced for any withdrawal requests made in the first week of ownership. The preivous times I've transferred balances it's been because the character was being sold. The delays on immediate withdrawals is to offer some safety net in case someone's account is hacked.
I can confirm that Ayumi does have the balance stated.
Thanks for confirming that.
Given that that is the case, I'll withdraw my 2.5 bil offer. Ayami I can understand why you're asking for so much because FRPB bonds sold for so much over the odds. Frankly, I think people who bought them at those prices were stupid. They are the same people who will sell me an item for 10 mil and I can then transport 2 jumps and sell for 20 mil. Not to mention the people who think that stuff they mine is free...
Suffice it to say, those people don't inhabit this board and if they do, they quickly realise the error of thier ways. I suggest you try elsewhere if you want 3 bil for your account.
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Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
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