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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.20 21:53:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 20/12/2007 21:51:43 A rapier/huginn/hyena will quite easily immobilise a hactor in bubble mode - virtually all fleet battleships should have mwds fitted anyway, so getting out of the bubble once the ship is webbed shouldn't be too much of an issue. The advantage the rapier and huginn have over the hyena is that they can operate at twice the range, this stopping themselves from being killed by said hactor.
edit: goum, I challenge thee to a race war (again) ;)
Oh my God, it's the restoring of an Era. Welcome back Sarmaul. ;-)
-Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 21:54:00 -
[62]
A race war? I thought we had gotten that our of our system in the 60s.
I have no clue what a race war is.
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Elenath
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.20 21:54:00 -
[63]
Originally by: HippoKing Edited by: HippoKing on 20/12/2007 21:47:22 The alt is hardly secret - I've already directly stated that he's me once today.
Now, the theory of antisupport:
1) You need to be able to reliably hit small targets at your given range. 2) You need to be able to do enough damage to kill them alone, and quickly - antisupport does not involve primaries being called. 3) You need to be able to operate in high lag situations.
Issue 3) pretty much makes chasing after someone in order to web them impossible - even completely chasing someone, you'll rarely be able to keep someone within 10km long enough for your web to actually activate.
Issue 2) and 3) combine to mean nothing smaller than a cruiser is optimal (Actually, the coercer can be pretty good, but that's another conversation).
So we remain with issue 1), and this is where the Sleipnir, Astarte and Thorax all have problems. They can't hit out to a range where their weapons track appropriately, and due to 3) and 2), can't rely on the target being webbed. Meanwhile, the Nighthawk constantly hits for enough damage (remember the sig bonus provides up to 33% extra damage to small ships as well). By sniping, you drastically increase the transversal at which you've able to track well.
1. The Nighthawks missiles won't catch up to or do significant damage to fast moving, small ships. They will need to be webbed. Once they are webbed (which they likely will be since most fleets don't leave home without Huginns or Rapiers... two other choices better than the Caldari ships you listed) it's better to have an Astarte, Sac, Deimos, or other various ships given these inevitable circumstances.
Originally by: HippoKing
Goum is right - Cerbs are good. However, I'd rather go for either an Eagle or a Nighthawk.
Eagles are garbage. I already stated the Nighthawk is better than the Cerb. Read.
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Sarmaul
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.20 21:57:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 20/12/2007 21:57:20
Originally by: Goumindong A race war? I thought we had gotten that our of our system in the 60s.
I have no clue what a race war is.
Amarr vs Minmatar...
/facepalm :P
Originally by: Liang Nuren Oh my God, it's the restoring of an Era. Welcome back Sarmaul. ;-)
-Liang
tyvm :D
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HippoKing
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 21:58:00 -
[65]
Edited by: HippoKing on 20/12/2007 21:59:15
Originally by: Elenath Eagles are garbage. I already stated the Nighthawk is better than the Cerb. Read.
And I've stated that you have no idea what your are talking about, and when it comes to the Eagle, you've just proved me right again.
I've got to ask - how often do you actually fly in the fleet battles you're discussing. As far as I know, Aliastra isn't involved in a major war right now, and you're arguing with an MC member and two GS members over stuff works out in a fleet battle.
I'm just interested in where your clear experience advantage comes from.
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Sarmaul
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:00:00 -
[66]
"1. The Nighthawks missiles won't catch up to or do significant damage to fast moving, small ships. They will need to be webbed. Once they are webbed (which they likely will be since most fleets don't leave home without Huginns or Rapiers... two other choices better than the Caldari ships you listed) it's better to have an Astarte, Sac, Deimos, or other various ships given these inevitable circumstances."
And if those webbed ships aren't sitting right next to the fat Astarte, the low-dps sac and the low-range deimos then they will have to travel to get into range, and then travel to the next ship and so on. Missiles on the other hand allow the firer to remain stationary while still taking down all the webbed ships around it without fear of overshooting (a very big possibility in laggy situations).
Of course, if you have a small ships webbed, nothing beats a pair of eagles spanking them from 170km away. Insta-damage, sniper range, no tracking issues.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:01:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 20/12/2007 21:57:20
Originally by: Goumindong A race war? I thought we had gotten that our of our system in the 60s.
I have no clue what a race war is.
Amarr vs Minmatar...
/facepalm :P
In a Caldari Suck thread.
Oh the irony.
I'm also somewhat glad to see the number of 'old names' returning to these hallowed halls. I makes me feel all like a lil' nublet again. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:03:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 20/12/2007 21:57:20
Originally by: Goumindong A race war? I thought we had gotten that our of our system in the 60s.
I have no clue what a race war is.
Amarr vs Minmatar...
/facepalm :P
How is Amarr suposed to win that one?
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Sarmaul
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:03:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 20/12/2007 21:57:20
Originally by: Goumindong A race war? I thought we had gotten that our of our system in the 60s.
I have no clue what a race war is.
Amarr vs Minmatar...
/facepalm :P
How is Amarr suposed to win that one?
By blobbing, duh :P
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Elenath
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:04:00 -
[70]
Originally by: HippoKing Edited by: HippoKing on 20/12/2007 21:59:15
Originally by: Elenath Eagles are garbage. I already stated the Nighthawk is better than the Cerb. Read.
And I've stated that you have no idea what your are talking about, and when it comes to the Eagle, you've just proved me right again.
I've got to ask - how often do you actually fly in the fleet battles you're discussing. As far as I know, Aliastra isn't involved in a major war right now, and you're arguing with an MC member and two GS members over stuff works out in a fleet battle.
I'm just interested in where your clear experience advantage comes from.
I know you took a forced vacation from this forum for a long while, but I hope I don't have to explain alts to you.
The Eagle is garbage. It takes three of more Eagles to quickly kill small support ships. Yes, Eagles are great if you think 3 ships doing the job of what one can do up close is worth while.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:04:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Of course, if you have a small ships webbed, nothing beats a pair of eagles spanking them from 170km away. Insta-damage, sniper range, no tracking issues.
With faction ammo you dont even need webs anymore. Takes a bit longer to kill the buggers if you are using faction at the peak of your range, but you dont have to worry about how fast they are going[for the most part].
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Elenath
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:05:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Elenath on 20/12/2007 22:05:45 Edited by: Elenath on 20/12/2007 22:05:14
Originally by: Sarmaul "1. The Nighthawks missiles won't catch up to or do significant damage to fast moving, small ships. They will need to be webbed. Once they are webbed (which they likely will be since most fleets don't leave home without Huginns or Rapiers... two other choices better than the Caldari ships you listed) it's better to have an Astarte, Sac, Deimos, or other various ships given these inevitable circumstances."
And if those webbed ships aren't sitting right next to the fat Astarte, the low-dps sac and the low-range deimos then they will have to travel to get into range, and then travel to the next ship and so on. Missiles on the other hand allow the firer to remain stationary while still taking down all the webbed ships around it without fear of overshooting (a very big possibility in laggy situations). Of course, if you have a small ships webbed, nothing beats a pair of eagles spanking them from 170km away. Insta-damage, sniper range, no tracking issues.
I agree with this, however, as I stated in my above response, it takes a few Eagles to threaten small support ships. I don't view multiple ships doing the job of what one can do up close as being efficient.
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HippoKing
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:06:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Elenath Once they are webbed (which they likely will be since most fleets don't leave home without Huginns or Rapiers
You didn't actually read my post, did you? You can't co-ordinate webbing in a fleet - it doesn't work. Antisupport just doesn't involve calling primaries in the same way that the anti-BS work does. You should be able to kill stuff far faster than working out who you can lock, web and then bring DPS down on. Lag and busy overviews means that looking for ready-webbed people is impossible.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:07:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Elenath
I know you took a forced vacation from this forum for a long while, but I hope I don't have to explain alts to you.
The Eagle is garbage. It takes three of more Eagles to quickly kill small support ships. Yes, Eagles are great if you think 3 ships doing the job of what one can do up close is worth while.
I know he didnt take a forced vacation from the game or from reality, and reality tells me and him and everyone else that eagles are great in large fleet battles because we fly with people using them and we fly against people using them and they are consistantly better than other ships at doing the job.
And there are reasons they are consistantly better than other ships and we are trying to explain that to you.
Originally by: Sarmaul
By blobbing, duh :P
Ill get right on that.
ed; We also forgot the griffin and Kitsune in the "good ships to bring" category.
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Elenath
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:11:00 -
[75]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Elenath Once they are webbed (which they likely will be since most fleets don't leave home without Huginns or Rapiers
You didn't actually read my post, did you? You can't co-ordinate webbing in a fleet - it doesn't work. Antisupport just doesn't involve calling primaries in the same way that the anti-BS work does. You should be able to kill stuff far faster than working out who you can lock, web and then bring DPS down on. Lag and busy overviews means that looking for ready-webbed people is impossible.
Very true, but this hurts Caldari ships as much as ships form any other race. This is one reason I've seen close range support do so well. Ships with available mids can web and slaughter support that has closed with the main fleet. Most Caldari ships don't fit webs, particularly in fleet engagements. Even anti-support Caldari ships aren't going to have a web fitted, or the ability to do so without making major sacrifices.
This is one reason I don't like Caldari ships in anti-support roles, tackling cripples the fleet fit on the ship.
However, your above point is well made.
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HippoKing
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:13:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Elenath The Eagle is garbage. It takes three of more Eagles to quickly kill small support ships. Yes, Eagles are great if you think 3 ships doing the job of what one can do up close is worth while.
First, what small ship are you flying that takes 3 Eagles to hurt? Next you're going to be telling me that AFs are the ultimate fleet tackler. 95% of fleet tackling ships are going to die if an Eagle gets all its guns on them before they can even get a single order through the lag.
The other problem of course is that one up close can't do the same job because it never hits unless it's a missile ship or a Huginn/Rapier (and the Rapier really doesn't put out enough DPS), both of which are paper-thin and sitting slap-bang in hostile BS optimal.
Quote: I know you took a forced vacation from this forum for a long while, but I hope I don't have to explain alts to you.
Doesn't stop me from being intrigued. Is it simply that you don't want your alt associated with posting so ridiculous? Are you afraid that it will simply demonstrate your lack of experience and ability (as though somehow your complete lack of understanding didn't already do that).
I'll just pose you few questions:
1) Have you ever flown an Eagle in a fleet? 2) Have you ever flown tackler and been attacked by a hostile Eagle in a fleet? 3) What ship were you in, and how did it end?
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Spacetrooper Kili
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:13:00 -
[77]
Originally by: HippoKing Edited by: HippoKing on 20/12/2007 21:59:15
Originally by: Elenath Eagles are garbage. I already stated the Nighthawk is better than the Cerb. Read.
And I've stated that you have no idea what your are talking about, and when it comes to the Eagle, you've just proved me right again.
I've got to ask - how often do you actually fly in the fleet battles you're discussing. As far as I know, Aliastra isn't involved in a major war right now, and you're arguing with an MC member and two GS members over stuff works out in a fleet battle.
I'm just interested in where your clear experience advantage comes from.
Eagle sux, everyone knows that. Any BS > eagle at sniping. And plz dont talk about antifrig crap cos spike m screws your tracking anyway and you still have no dps to back it up. oh and goons do suck and normal pvp. They drop the ****tiest loot and have the stupidest fittings. I know this since i have been killing them longer than you have been with them. 2003 main char.
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HippoKing
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:14:00 -
[78]
Edited by: HippoKing on 20/12/2007 22:16:06
Originally by: Goumindong We also forgot the griffin and Kitsune in the "good ships to bring" category.
The Griffin is useless, and I haven't had an experience in a Kitsune yet and unlike some people in this thread, I don't like reeling off huge forum arguments without any actual knowledge of the subject material.
edit: I've actually never flown a fleet eagle or Vulture (my cruiser hybrid skills suck), only been killed by them. Every other ship I've mentioned, I've flown in a fleet or a gang.
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Elenath
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:14:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Elenath
I know you took a forced vacation from this forum for a long while, but I hope I don't have to explain alts to you.
The Eagle is garbage. It takes three of more Eagles to quickly kill small support ships. Yes, Eagles are great if you think 3 ships doing the job of what one can do up close is worth while.
I know he didnt take a forced vacation from the game or from reality, and reality tells me and him and everyone else that eagles are great in large fleet battles because we fly with people using them and we fly against people using them and they are consistantly better than other ships at doing the job.
And there are reasons they are consistantly better than other ships and we are trying to explain that to you.
You have admitted on these forums that you've never flown an Eagle. So the only thing you're doing is parroting what other people say, or using EFT again.
Either way, your qualification to discuss the Eagle is flimsy at best.
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HippoKing
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:17:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Spacetrooper Kili Eagle sux, everyone knows that. Any BS > eagle at sniping. And plz dont talk about antifrig crap cos spike m screws your tracking anyway and you still have no dps to back it up. oh and goons do suck and normal pvp. They drop the ****tiest loot and have the stupidest fittings. I know this since i have been killing them longer than you have been with them. 2003 main char.
This is a pretty bad fakepost.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:18:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Elenath [
You have admitted on these forums that you've never flown an Eagle. So the only thing you're doing is parroting what other people say, or using EFT again.
Either way, your qualification to discuss the Eagle is flimsy at best.
I dont need to be able to fly an eagle to know what does anti-support well. All i need to have done is participate on either side of the anti-support wall in fleet battles[which i do, typically flying battlecruisers, and probably moving into Zealots if i come into some money]. I know what does anti-support well. Range, and tracking.
And the eagle has plenty of range and plenty of tracking. Its dps is low, but it doesnt need to be high. And even if it doesnt kill the target, and chases it off, its done its job because the primary purpose of anti-support is to keep battleships from being tackled. This allows them to warp out. This allows them to get back into the fight intstead of exploding. This wins fleet battles.
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Elenath
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:19:00 -
[82]
Originally by: HippoKing
1) Have you ever flown an Eagle in a fleet? 2) Have you ever flown tackler and been attacked by a hostile Eagle in a fleet? 3) What ship were you in, and how did it end?
1. Yes, many, many times over the years it's been out. Though I gave up because it simply doesn't do anything other than maybe cause support ot raise transversal upon closing with the fleet. Eagles simply do not do enough damage to kill support properly.
2. Yes, though nowhere near as often as #1.
3. Crows normally. I simply kept transversal up and laughed at them. I don't even see them as a threat. Now Rapiers, Huginns, or fast tracking ships up close? Then I worry.
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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:19:00 -
[83]
I like when people say "90% of caldari ships are missile ships." Maybe 90% of the most popular but not 90% of them all.
Raptor, eagle, merlin, moa, cormorant (but then this one's a given), vulture, rokh, ferox, and harpy are all gun ships. There are 45 Caldari ships in total, including the shuttle. 9 of them, a full 20%, are gun ships, or at least have gun bonuses.
There are 19 ships with missile bonuses, including capital ships, which make up a mere 42% of the ships. The numbers drop a bit if you define "missile ship" as ships designed for missile warfare (raven, golem, cerberus, caracal) and not ships that just happen to have missile bonuses added along with their primary bonuses (rook).
Of the remaining ships 6 are ECM platforms (including the widow and rook), approximately 11% of caldari ships in total.
If you further refine the parameters by excluding all non-combat ships (freighter, shuttle, transports, etc.) you'll come up with roughly 32 combat ships (34 in all categories but the rook and widow would be counted twice). Even then the percentage of missile boats in the Caldari lineup is only just over 60%.
Ah well, not that it matters since perception rules and numbers don't mean a lot.
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Elenath
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:21:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Elenath on 20/12/2007 22:22:47
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Elenath [
You have admitted on these forums that you've never flown an Eagle. So the only thing you're doing is parroting what other people say, or using EFT again.
Either way, your qualification to discuss the Eagle is flimsy at best.
I dont need to be able to fly an eagle to know what does anti-support well. All i need to have done is participate on either side of the anti-support wall in fleet battles[which i do, typically flying battlecruisers, and probably moving into Zealots if i come into some money]. I know what does anti-support well. Range, and tracking.
And the eagle has plenty of range and plenty of tracking. Its dps is low, but it doesnt need to be high. And even if it doesnt kill the target, and chases it off, its done its job because the primary purpose of anti-support is to keep battleships from being tackled. This allows them to warp out. This allows them to get back into the fight intstead of exploding. This wins fleet battles.
Wrong. All the Eagle will do is cause any targeted support to raise transversal. Once that is done the Eagle is not going to touch them. Ever. No matter what ammo of fittings the Eagle is using. Eagles do not destroy support, they only force them to move at 45 degree angles to approach the fleet. Any good pilot knows this.
PS. And yes, your credibility in discussing the Eagle is paper thin in the minds of anyone who is halfway intelligent. You have no personal experience with it. End of story.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:22:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Elenath
Originally by: HippoKing
1) Have you ever flown an Eagle in a fleet? 2) Have you ever flown tackler and been attacked by a hostile Eagle in a fleet? 3) What ship were you in, and how did it end?
1. Yes, many, many times over the years it's been out. Though I gave up because it simply doesn't do anything other than maybe cause support ot raise transversal upon closing with the fleet. Eagles simply do not do enough damage to kill support properly.
2. Yes, though nowhere near as often as #1.
3. Crows normally. I simply kept transversal up and laughed at them. I don't even see them as a threat. Now Rapiers, Huginns, or fast tracking ships up close? Then I worry.
Let me guess, you were using spike at 100-130km?
P.S. Who do you fly for?
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Elenath
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:25:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Elenath
Originally by: HippoKing
1) Have you ever flown an Eagle in a fleet? 2) Have you ever flown tackler and been attacked by a hostile Eagle in a fleet? 3) What ship were you in, and how did it end?
1. Yes, many, many times over the years it's been out. Though I gave up because it simply doesn't do anything other than maybe cause support ot raise transversal upon closing with the fleet. Eagles simply do not do enough damage to kill support properly.
2. Yes, though nowhere near as often as #1.
3. Crows normally. I simply kept transversal up and laughed at them. I don't even see them as a threat. Now Rapiers, Huginns, or fast tracking ships up close? Then I worry.
Let me guess, you were using spike at 100-130km?
P.S. Who do you fly for?
I generally try to avoid Spike. Shooting at support early will make them too cautious. I usually use faction ammo or mid-range t1 ammo and let them get close enough and confident enough that they drop transversal. With some lucky shots I might get them out of the fight in 3 volleys or so. Sorry, but that's next to useless. Eagles truly are crap.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:28:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Elenath
Wrong. All the Eagle will do is cause any targeted support to raise transversal. Once that is done the Eagle is not going to touch them. Ever. No matter what ammo of fittings the Eagle is using. Eagles do not destroy support, they only force them to move at 45 degree angles to approach the fleet. Any good pilot knows this.
I would love to see the interceptor flown in a fleet that can consistantly acieve 5000+km/s transersal to multiple points.
Its even higher, the fastest and smallest interceptors need 7km/s transversal and to be under 100km in order to avoid your guns half decently if you change for tracking scripts. Considering that is about as fast as a non-gang-mod'd crusader is going to go, period. I really doubt its going to put much of a dent in your ability to do your job.
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:30:00 -
[88]
No.
Why should anyone convince you of anything? Fly the game how you like.
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Sarmaul
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:44:00 -
[89]
I still have nightmares over the Eagle that nearly popped my Sabre in M-O. Thought I could get under his guns in time. I was wrong
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.21 00:35:00 -
[90]
Originally by: HippoKing Edited by: HippoKing on 20/12/2007 22:16:06
Originally by: Goumindong We also forgot the griffin and Kitsune in the "good ships to bring" category.
The Griffin is useless, and I haven't had an experience in a Kitsune yet and unlike some people in this thread, I don't like reeling off huge forum arguments without any actual knowledge of the subject material.
edit: I've actually never flown a fleet eagle or Vulture (my cruiser hybrid skills suck), only been killed by them. Every other ship I've mentioned, I've flown in a fleet or a gang.
Didint it just get a boost from 10-15%? Seems like its in a similar category as the rifter.
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