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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:43:00 -
[1]
It's been bothering me for a looong time now and i finally decided to spill it. Even though everyone *should* already know it i'm gonna elaborate on why posting killboard statistics to prove why you are awesome means very, very little.
I'll elaborate with an example:
Several alliances clash in a 10 versus 10 fight, resulting in the annihilation of one fleet consisting of 2 alliances, A and B, while the second fleet of alliance C and D leaves with 3 ships intact.
The killboards will look like this:
A) 5 losses, 7 kills B) 5 losses, 7 kills C) 3 losses, 10 kills D) 4 losses, 10 kills
Members from each alliance involved will read their own killboard, and even though A and B have lost the battle, many will say 'but we did good!' based off the kil/death statistics.
The problem is quite obvious: a loss only shows once, while a kill shows multiple times, because oftentimes, many involved parties are on the mail.
Recently, MC posted a close to 10:1 killratio for battleships on their Querious/Catch campaign. An impressive number or so it seems, but it would look wholly different (though still in their favour, i bet ) if a total balance of friendly losses was included, as well as the kills 'divided' among thos who participated in it.
In b4 'bitter much'. Just an observation i made, and the MC example is just that, an example. There is no real 'solution' to fix this and i dont think its needed, but its worth taking into consideration when viewing killboards or kb statistics.
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Rex Mundus
Captain Morgan Society
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:46:00 -
[2]
I think everyone already knows this. Killboard stats aren't usually posted to portray the entire picture, they're just intended to be an indicator. In the MC example, there are many corps and alliances that would have much lower statistics (albeit minus the titan loss )
Rex
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fire 59
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:47:00 -
[3]
Well they were talking about it from there perspective although i see what you mean. In all honesty, i think killmails should be gotten rid of so we can focus on what's important. Would also be cool to have to figure out what the enemy is upto by there wrecks and tactics with them etc
"Random Goon " - why dont you kick box me about it, after your dad has killed himself of course
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Goldis
Caldari Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:57:00 -
[4]
Killboards were never meant to be accurate; They couldn't even remotely be. They merely provide a limited picture on the alliances status. ----
De Gustibus et Coloribus non disputandum est.
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:02:00 -
[5]
i know im a nerd but i enjoy reading the "battle overviews" on different killboards
and its very informative sometimes ------
Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
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Elohe
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: fire 59 Well they were talking about it from there perspective although i see what you mean. In all honesty, i think killmails should be gotten rid of so we can focus on what's important. Would also be cool to have to figure out what the enemy is upto by there wrecks and tactics with them etc
This is the only thing i could agree with fire 59
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:03:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/10/2007 10:04:22 Old news; I've been saying this constantly.
If Alliance A gets one person on a killmail, they get the full value of that mail.
The way to solve it is to have killboards count the value of a kill and then multiply it by the percentage of ships on the mail which are of that alliance. That way, all the numbers on each killboard will add up to 100% for each mail, avoiding any duplication of kill values.
I.e. if 10 ships are on a mail, 5 of alliance A, 3 of alliance B, 2 of alliance C, A gets 50% of the value of the mail, B gets 30%, and C gets 20%.
In the current system, each of those alliances gets 100%, resulting in 3 times the kill value being counted.
23 Member
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Raaki
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:04:00 -
[8]
I don't think killmails should be getten rid of. The whole concept should be improved upon. This game is just screaming for Stats.
Ccp should seriously look into providing definative killmail stats that can't be messed with.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:05:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Goldis Killboards were never meant to be accurate; They couldn't even remotely be. They merely provide a limited picture on the alliances status.
Then how come the first thing asked to provide when joining an alliance is a kb link? How come so many people boast with their k/d ratios? It annoys me to a great extent that a game so diverse can be boiled down to an awkwardly inaccurate comparison of raw numbers, and that people get judged by just those numbers?
I'm taking this way too serious ain't i?
Lol.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:07:00 -
[10]
It would be a solution to implement something like DS said, simply giving each kill a 'score' based on the number of people on the mail versus the number of people on the mail in the corp owning the board. I'll have a chat about it with my kb host =P
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:13:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 15/10/2007 10:15:14 That problem is old and I pointed it out quite often already. In multi-alliance wars killboard statistics means NOTHING!
They do not have little value, they mean nothing! The only useful information you can get from killboards is fittings and what ships the other people are flying usually - and where. Everything else is worth nothing. So is the bragging: we have/had incredible kill/loss ratio etc. etc.
But...
In the future all will change They introduce a new kill'mail' system and then you will see exactly how much damage everyone inflicted. So you won't get a 100% kill just because you were present in the battle and got one shot at someone. Then you will get only 0.1% of total damage inflicted probably.
And this will lead to much more accurate killboards! And there won't be any truncated killmails either.
But until then...ignore k/l ratio completely.
Edit: Link to devblog about new killmail system
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:20:00 -
[12]
Now just need to get 'someone' interested enough to take concrete steps to implement such zerosum-killboard.
Like:
1) Checkout active developers of popular enough killboards 2a) Ask them if they could add such feature (perhaps as optional switch) 2b) Download the source and modify it (not really big change) 3) Release the code and urge people to try it (along their main board perhaps)
For propaganda/moral purposes one might still opt for the current killboards. Yet I think some Alliance leaders, CEOs and invidual members might want to figure out how they really are doing.
Regardless of all the boasting, fakes and missing posts, killboards could be the most objective measure for 'how well war/campaign/etc is going?'.
-Lasse with long TODO list already
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Relaria Hossin
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:20:00 -
[13]
I wonder how non-damaging modules will count on the new kill system. Things such as ewar and warp scrambling.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Relaria Hossin I wonder how non-damaging modules will count on the new kill system. Things such as ewar and warp scrambling.
Interesting point.
I guess e-war pilots will get the shaft if you only count damage points, so that's not really a solution either
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Asperger
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:43:00 -
[15]
Let P be a set of players, K be a set of kills and f : P -> K.
It is obvious that f is not invertible, because if f(x) = f(x') then it does not necessarily follow that x = x' (as there exists at least one case where two different players are responsible (on the killmail) for a kill).
Now, let D be a set of deaths, and g : P -> D.
In this case, it can be shown that g is injective, so g^-1 is a function.
The same properties hold in case we substitute the set P for the set A meaning alliances or set C for corporations.
Let a killmail be relation E, subset of B x K x D, where p \isOf P, g(p) and q \isOf Q, f(q) holds true and B is the set of killboards.
This in practice means that for multiple attackers on a killmail there exists only one death on a given killboard.
Combining this with the fact that there exist players in different alliances on a single killmail and that there exist different killboards for those different alliances, and furthermore that alliances syncronize killboards, we can conclude that there exists multiple killmails for a given kill, but since we restrict B to a set of one element in case of calculating losses: the killboard of the victim, to generate statistics: Quod erat demonstrandum that kills and deaths are not comparable.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:52:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Asperger Let P be a set of players, K be a set of kills and f : P -> K.
It is obvious that f is not invertible, because if f(x) = f(x') then it does not necessarily follow that x = x' (as there exists at least one case where two different players are responsible (on the killmail) for a kill).
Now, let D be a set of deaths, and g : P -> D.
In this case, it can be shown that g is injective, so g^-1 is a function.
The same properties hold in case we substitute the set P for the set A meaning alliances or set C for corporations.
Let a killmail be relation E, subset of B x K x D, where p \isOf P, g(p) and q \isOf Q, f(q) holds true and B is the set of killboards.
This in practice means that for multiple attackers on a killmail there exists only one death on a given killboard.
Combining this with the fact that there exist players in different alliances on a single killmail and that there exist different killboards for those different alliances, and furthermore that alliances syncronize killboards, we can conclude that there exists multiple killmails for a given kill, but since we restrict B to a set of one element in case of calculating losses: the killboard of the victim, to generate statistics: Quod erat demonstrandum that kills and deaths are not comparable.
/me steps away from the keyboard to breathe in
So what this means is that if you want an accurate overview of a battle, you should combine the loss records of all sides instead of all kills
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Asperger
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:54:00 -
[17]
Oh, and in case you want meaningful stats, just restrict the set of killers to the person who made the final blow, in which case you can compare player, alliance and corporation stats.
Of course, if you don't get any final blows then you will appear to be losing k/d ratio-wise, which of course presupposes qualitative differences between how many final blows does an alliance get compared to it's allies.
When the killmail mk1.5 arrives, you will be able to calculate damage percentages, and then just multiply your kills with the damage percentage you've dealt to the victim, to get much more accurate and comparable k/d ratios.
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Anglo
Minmatar Astral Mexicans
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Posted - 2007.10.15 11:22:00 -
[18]
get rit of kb stats... make new stats...
ingame stats i like more.. when u look up a caracter he should have a kill / ratio in hes bio or something, WITH the 10 latests kills/deaths..
Then a corp can have the same IF they are at war.. concord could come into afect here too IF u are in a corp killing LOTS of neutrals concord WILL eventually dislike you! this should maybe go for 00 warfare too... but if u added some to your negative list OR they have shot lots of neutrals you will get a standing raise ( alliance wide ) something like this would make eve life abit more interesting...
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2007.10.15 11:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: marakor on 15/10/2007 11:42:39 A war or general EVE KB could be a idea.
As we go into a era where multi alliances are fighting each other perhaps it is time we had a general EVE KB that auto updates and gets sent the mails as do the players who get the last shot on a kill. This then could be updated with who is on what side and when they entered/left the conflict giving a better broader view of the wars in progress.
It could even perhaps be set with a real time map/sov level/pos kills counter as the ingame map already takes most of those details anyway and shows most of them apart from the pos count/kills to each of us in game if we open the galaxy map anyway.
The opinions that i give are the opinions of my corp although my alts opinions may differ as this is my forum smack alt. |
Valan
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Posted - 2007.10.15 11:46:00 -
[20]
Statistics in any form are complete crap unless the context is specified.
If I have 15 battleships and billions left in the bank.
If a noob has 1 ship and no isk in the bank.
If the noob kills 14 of my BS and I kill him with the last BS I have proven that I'm stupid and a crap PvPer but I've won :) The killboard only shows how bad I am and not that I've won. So the killboard only really matters for people who care what people think of them and on the internet playing a game all that amounts to is epeen.
/start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.10.15 12:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: marakor ...perhaps it is time we had a general EVE KB that auto updates...
Autoupdate could happen with the new killmail system. In the devblog they mentioned an API and that means that you can fully automatize killboards then. Which means also that killboards could become more accurate because people wouldn't 'forget' any longer to post losses.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.15 12:46:00 -
[22]
And I tought that I was god of eve already and actually better than EDF stats...
But then again, I have no clue about math.
Oh and ... bitter much?
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 12:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: LUKEC
Oh and ... bitter much?
Yeah, rub it in
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Cringeley
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:08:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Asperger Let P be a set of players, K be a set of kills and f : P -> K.
It is obvious that f is not invertible, because if f(x) = f(x') then it does not necessarily follow that x = x' (as there exists at least one case where two different players are responsible (on the killmail) for a kill).
Now, let D be a set of deaths, and g : P -> D.
In this case, it can be shown that g is injective, so g^-1 is a function.
The same properties hold in case we substitute the set P for the set A meaning alliances or set C for corporations.
Let a killmail be relation E, subset of B x K x D, where p \isOf P, g(p) and q \isOf Q, f(q) holds true and B is the set of killboards.
This in practice means that for multiple attackers on a killmail there exists only one death on a given killboard.
Combining this with the fact that there exist players in different alliances on a single killmail and that there exist different killboards for those different alliances, and furthermore that alliances syncronize killboards, we can conclude that there exists multiple killmails for a given kill, but since we restrict B to a set of one element in case of calculating losses: the killboard of the victim, to generate statistics: Quod erat demonstrandum that kills and deaths are not comparable.
Why go complicating a perfectly simple argument with words like "injective" and "invertible"?
Dark Shikari's idea is not bad. Another solution would be for long-standing alliance clusters to keep group killboards. But both of those depend on people actually wanting their killboard stats to be honest, when in fact everyone just wants everyone else's killboard stats to be honest and their own to be impressive.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cringeley But both of those depend on people actually wanting their killboard stats to be honest, when in fact everyone just wants everyone else's killboard stats to be honest and their own to be impressive.
It's in our nature i guess :/
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Matty Walker
Body Heat LLP
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:12:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Raaki This game is just screaming for Stats.
Dear God, it's already a spreadsheet with a pretty interface.
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Lenaria
Caldari Ursa Ritor
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:19:00 -
[27]
Many current killboards (example RA) already have that system. Points are divided between involved. ==============================================
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JeanPaul Sartre
26th of July Movement
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: fire 59 Well they were talking about it from there perspective although i see what you mean. In all honesty, i think killmails should be gotten rid of so we can focus on what's important. Would also be cool to have to figure out what the enemy is upto by there wrecks and tactics with them etc
I 100% agree with this. I hope less than 5minutes dev time is spent on killmail revamp. A personal stats window in game would be great. --
Quote: If a victory is told in detail, one can no longer distinguish it from a defeat.
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Seleene
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:50:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Seleene on 15/10/2007 13:50:26
In terms of accuracy, I know that MC does regular pulls from every other alliance who uses the 'Rig0r'-style board (which is quite a few atm). It's one of the main reasons we use that format as it grabs both kills and losses our members might have missed.
All any one alliance can do at this point is represent things from thier point of view. Usually this means that even an alliance that strives to post 100% of thier losses will end up with a positive K:D ratio. This is especially true in huge campaigns such as the one MC just took a part in.
Sokratesz's original post is quite valid - if there are 50 BS per side in a battle and each side loses 25, those 25 might be spread out between 10 corps in 5 different alliances. No one denies that killboard statistics are not represenative of the "whole picture", they just show how your alliance / corp did. Anyone who truly wishes to delve deeper into such things can quite easily sastify thier own curiosity by visiting other kill boards.
In the end, to many people, the only 'kill board' that seems to matter these days is this one. -
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 14:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Seleene
In the end, to many people, the only 'kill board' that seems to matter these days is this one.
I would really like to see that instead of given a solely quantified representation of a 'contract' or 'operation', we could instead get a more progressive view of it. Personally i prefer Battle Reports which feature a proper storyline over the short 'we killed x and lost z', but thankfully there have been alot of people including myself trying to improve on that recently. In a game where people can get quite attached to bits & bytes which in turn may be lost in the blink of an eye, a nice writeup can mean quite alot to the audience.
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