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Rylet VanDorn
The Clearwater Society Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:42:00 -
[31]
The biggest balance issue between RSD & ECM is that RSDs can be stacked to cumulative effect, and are 100% effective at all times, whereas ECM is an all-or-nothing module.
Also: To the person who said damps are useless at close range... you are incorrect. The effect is still happening, and in today's PVP world of speed modded ships, it's perfectly possible to get out of locking range. Once the enemy has lost lock, you can move back in, and the enemy's sensors are dampened so badly that they are dead before they can re-target you.
The balance for RSDs is simple: Make it so they cannot be stacked on a target. 8 damps should have the same effect as 1, just like ECM.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:42:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I think that range is closer to between 30 and 90km. Maybe a bit less, because I think you're well into falloff for damps at 90km IIRC.
Note: I say this because I had a 3 damp double damp rigged bonused ship get locked and put into structure at 85km by Nighthawk (that I was "damping").
Liang
45km + 90 km fallof -> 50% chance to hit at 135km
And a 50% miss chance. I'd say at 130km, the Arazu is gonna be permajammed.
Liang
26 Sensor strength on the arazu (30 on the lachesis, which would be a better comparison, since if i use a falcon, against it, the chances would be even lower) against a RACIAL jammer with a strength of 13.7 on the maxed rook (without a maxed eos backing it up)... doesnt look like a good chance to perma jam (even with recon 5, which you dont need on the gallente ships)... and the problem is, i dont know any ship that will lock at 135km if only a single RSD hits it from a gallente recon (since it gets maxed damp with cruiser 5)and only very few that will be able to do so when hit by unbonused ship.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:57:00 -
[33]
They are not obsolete as such, you just need to fit the ecm "damage mods" and rig the ship. All in all in total the ship has a wee bit more ECM str, but since it was a double gimp, they also doubled the effectiveness of ECCM, so even if you have a max skilled, best possible gang boni and mods+rigs, your still ****ed if the enemy has a single ECCM fitted. Good thing no one fits those anymore, since running into an ECM ship fully T2 fitted and rigged is very impropable, since it costs about as much as a standard fleet BS with the exception that it dies to light drones, and fast at that... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.13 21:04:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Aramendel on 13/08/2007 21:04:31
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Aramendel A rook will have around the same chance to jam the arazu. With the right racial - the arazu does not need the correct version of damps. It will have the advantage there.
I don't know any competent ECM pilot that flies without at least one Gallente racial jammer. The ships are too prevalent in PVP to ignore.
You miss the point. It is not about not having a correct racial, it is the fact that with damps EVERY damp has full efficiency while with ECM you only get full efficiency from a fraction of your modules.
Arazu with 4 damps which ALL have a 50% chance. Chance to miss a cycle (1 damp is enough to dampen it below 130k unless its base locking range is 450k): 6.25%
Falcon with 1-2 gal ECM with a 50% chance and 3-4 jammers with a 17% chance. Chance with 2 correct racials and 4 wrong racials to miss a cycle: 12.05%
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 21:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rylet VanDorn The biggest balance issue between RSD & ECM is that RSDs can be stacked to cumulative effect, and are 100% effective at all times, whereas ECM is an all-or-nothing module.
Also: To the person who said damps are useless at close range... you are incorrect. The effect is still happening, and in today's PVP world of speed modded ships, it's perfectly possible to get out of locking range. Once the enemy has lost lock, you can move back in, and the enemy's sensors are dampened so badly that they are dead before they can re-target you.
The balance for RSDs is simple: Make it so they cannot be stacked on a target. 8 damps should have the same effect as 1, just like ECM.
If you do this, then you'll have to make 1 damp about 2.5 times as powerful as they are now. Otherwise you just nerfed damps way more than ECM got nerfed.
Also, 8 damps have (virtually) the same effect as 3.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 21:13:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 13/08/2007 21:09:40
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Aramendel A rook will have around the same chance to jam the arazu. With the right racial - the arazu does not need the correct version of damps. It will have the advantage there.
I don't know any competent ECM pilot that flies without at least one Gallente racial jammer. The ships are too prevalent in PVP to ignore.
You miss the point. It is not about not having a correct racial, it is the fact that with damps EVERY damp has full efficiency while with ECM you only get full efficiency from a fraction of your modules.
Arazu with 4 damps which ALL have a 50% chance. Chance to miss a cycle on all damps (1 damp is enough to dampen it below 130k unless its base locking range is 450k): 6.25%
Falcon with 1-2 gal ECM with a 50% chance and 3-4 jammers with a 17% chance. Chance with 2 correct racials and 4 wrong racials to miss a cycle with all ECM: 12.05%
I see your point, and raise you more range. Sorry, best defense I got. Please don't nerf my 'zu.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Dalyn Arathon
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:04:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Dalyn Arathon on 13/08/2007 22:05:36 They were supposedly going to set it up so that ecm bonused ships were unaffected by the nerf, but this isn't the way it played out. You now have to have two effectiveness mods and two rigs and ship skill 5 to get about the same effectiveness as you could get before with just ship skill 4. So yeah, it's possible to get the same effectiveness you used to, but you have to absolutely and completely dedicate your ship to ecm, and get at best a 1 or 2 slot tank. Compare that to the RSD ships that can get a decent tank and decent damage output. Maybe not great at either, but at least they don't have to sacrifice most of their rig and low slots to be effective.
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Zoe Forias
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:14:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman RSD need the same nerf as ECM got imo. Make it barely worth fitting on a non dedicated ship (like ecms are) and let them be the same at dedicated ships.
And then do the same thing to tracking disruptors, too? Because when you nerf RSDs, everyone will start fitting them, I promise you.
I think non dedicated ships should be able to fit some form of EW, like tracking disruptors, ECM bursts and RSDs.
Not to say there aren't issues with RSDs in comparison to ECM. I wouldn't mind ECM getting a bit of a boost, so that an EW ship can still jam at the level it could before, maybe even a little better with the lo-slot mods. And maybe the cumulative effect of RSDs need to be looked at, especially so that the Sensor Booster works as a better counter.
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:17:00 -
[39]
yes mebbe a rig of these thingies should be included into ecm ships' boni or they should get a bonus on such rigs so they only need fit one. as for dampers i think maybe one could split the mali onto two modules, e.g. one that decreases locking range (the way you most ppl use em) and one that decreases locking time as a complement to ecm. that would at least allow ppl to try and get a ship into targeting range without then needing a minute or so to aquire a lock and to at least attack the ships drones.
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:23:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Morn Judith It seems to me that ECM is now nearly obsolete. I used to be a pretty advance Caldari EW pilot before I took a break and scrapped my characters. I've been back for a while now, and recently trained Recons. But it seems to me in returning to PvP that no one uses ECMs anymore. The flavor of the day is now Remote Sensor Dampeners.
Why is this? I know there was a change made to ECM mods, what exactly was that? And did this change result in the abandonment of ECM mods, and the dedication of damps to PvP?
I'm asking this because if ECM is mostly useless now, or rather Damps are just better, then I'd rather not waste my time on training the relevant skills, and going through the pain of losing ships to figure out that they hardly work now.
LOL. I have three very skilled Rook pilots that would disagree about ECM being useless. ECM is awesome. One Rook and it's a whole different fight.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Zoe Forias
Originally by: Benn Helmsman RSD need the same nerf as ECM got imo. Make it barely worth fitting on a non dedicated ship (like ecms are) and let them be the same at dedicated ships.
And then do the same thing to tracking disruptors, too? Because when you nerf RSDs, everyone will start fitting them, I promise you.
That would make flying missile ships usefull again.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:30:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Zoe Forias
Originally by: Benn Helmsman RSD need the same nerf as ECM got imo. Make it barely worth fitting on a non dedicated ship (like ecms are) and let them be the same at dedicated ships.
And then do the same thing to tracking disruptors, too? Because when you nerf RSDs, everyone will start fitting them, I promise you.
That would make flying missile ships usefull again.
It actually won't solve anything for missile users. As it stands, people whine about getting damped in a missile boat, but I *ASSURE* you that FOF's work just fine when you're damped.
There's like 200 threads regarding everything that's wrong with missile boats (and I don't contest that there is nothing wrong. You might even find me agreeing that they need a boost).
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:36:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Zoe Forias And then do the same thing to tracking disruptors, too? Because when you nerf RSDs, everyone will start fitting them, I promise you.
Not really. The efficiency of TDs is a good deal below of ECM and damps. It's like arguing that if the Eos would be nerfed everyone would start flying Vultures.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:39:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 22:39:22 Well there are still a lot of problems if you get dampend, like you need to load time for fof (if you use guided missiles, if you use torps etc. you are still out of the game) and you cant attack a called targets (fof only attack people that are aggressing you right?).
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 22:39:22 Well there are still a lot of problems if you get dampend, like you need to load time for fof (if you use guided missiles, if you use torps etc. you are still out of the game) and you cant attack a called targets (fof only attack people that are aggressing you right?).
Just FYI, my FOF Drake has wtfbbq'd people trying to damp me. Please see the "blarazu!" thread for more details about how damping ships feel about FOF's.
Yes, FOF's attack people who are aggressing you (and focus fire on the closest one at that). If you're being damped, chances are *ITS THE DAMPER* that your missiles will go for. ^_^
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:52:00 -
[46]
His drones most likely. With smart dronemanagement you can actually perma"tank" FoFs.
Deploy drones, let them hover between you & target by timing your attack & recall commands, call back when back to dronebay when FoFs are launched, redeploy, repeat.
Also, the vulnerability to FoFs is hardly a damp only specific weakness.
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:53:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Shiken Kan on 13/08/2007 22:54:46 all a lachesis/arazu can do against an fof ship is flee unless that ships tank is close to nonexistant (like that of a recon :p ), which are way fewer options then against a blasterboat for instance :D
oops or that what aramendel said, though you'd be walking a very thin line then.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:01:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Shiken Kan Edited by: Shiken Kan on 13/08/2007 22:54:46 all a lachesis/arazu can do against an fof ship is flee unless that ships tank is close to nonexistant (like that of a recon :p ), which are way fewer options then against a blasterboat for instance :D
oops or that what aramendel said, though you'd be walking a very thin line then.
All the falcon or rook can do is flee, since we lack drones, damage, and a tank just to have a chance to jam 1-2 targets =(
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Hannobaal
Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:03:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Rylet VanDorn 8 damps should have the same effect as 1, just like ECM.
What do you mean "just like ecm"? 8 ecm on a target is just like 1? It's the other way around. Each additional dampener put on a target is less effective and after 4 of them it's useless to put more on a target. With ecm, each additional module gives you a higher chance of jamming the target and there are no stacking penalties. ------------------
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:09:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Aramendel His drones most likely. With smart dronemanagement you can actually perma"tank" FoFs.
Deploy drones, let them hover between you & target by timing your attack & recall commands, call back when back to dronebay when FoFs are launched, redeploy, repeat.
Also, the vulnerability to FoFs is hardly a damp only specific weakness.
This won't work. You can't launch/recall them fast enough.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:25:00 -
[51]
To the OP - I'm afraid so, yes. ECM got nerfed heavily (which was needed) but as a side effect the ECM specialised ships did too (which wasn't IMO).
So you're now, actually better off fitting damps to your rook or scorpion, than you are ECMs.
The change to ECMs, was to half their power, and double the bonuses on ECM specialised ships.
And introduce a mod, that increases ECM power. Net result, a scorp can jam as well as it did, if it fills all its lowslots and rig slots with ECM power rigs and modules.
Which has taken it from 'ok, if you can't fly a T2 sniper' to 'just don't bother and fly a frigate or something instead'.
That's not to say they don't have their uses, but ... well most of these ships are drifting gently to the pile that's marked 'nice, but there's other things you should be flying'.
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Morn Judith
Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:53:00 -
[52]
Excellent. Theres a lot of good information in this thread. It looks like ECMs weren't super-nerfed, but super-specialized.
One question that I have is how to combat the effects of RSDs? Does ECCM do anything for you? Or is the only way to negate their effects is to remain outside of the 130km bubble? In my opinion, if you've got ECCM to combat the ECM, then there definitely has to be a way to save yourself from RSDs other than FoF missiles.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:55:00 -
[53]
Sensor boosters & sensor relays. These serve additional purposes besides ECCM though... so they're nice.
IMHO, the best "nerf" to damps would be to combine ECCM into the Sensor Booster.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Fkn Arson
Ionic Defender
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Posted - 2007.08.14 00:06:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Aramendel A rook will have around the same chance to jam the arazu. With the right racial - the arazu does not need the correct version of damps. It will have the advantage there.
The bolded text gave me an idea, why don't we ask for damps to be changed to the same as ECM, racial required. Racials will be fully effective against their own race and a little against others. While "multi-damps" are half as effective as the current damps but against all races.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.14 00:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Fkn Arson
Originally by: Aramendel A rook will have around the same chance to jam the arazu. With the right racial - the arazu does not need the correct version of damps. It will have the advantage there.
The bolded text gave me an idea, why don't we ask for damps to be changed to the same as ECM, racial required. Racials will be fully effective against their own race and a little against others. While "multi-damps" are half as effective as the current damps but against all races.
Can we then get faction and officer damps?
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Veryez
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Posted - 2007.08.14 00:38:00 -
[56]
The debate on whether ECM is obsolete or not is not nearly as cut and dried as some would make it. Saying "ECM is fine, because the rook is good" is hardly a valid arguement. The fact that someone pointed out that the Scorpion is actually better fitting 4 damps on it (and nobody disagreeing) should tell you that ECM ships are poor at best.
Those that tell you that "A rook is very good in small gangs" are leaving out a very important point - is there enough ships/DPS in the gang to overcome the fact that you have a ship with minimal DPS and no tank in your gang. In other words when you have the luxury of having an extra ship in your gang the rook is a very good ship. You would probably have won the engagement anyway, but the Rook minimized the damage you took. In situations where the enemy is unknown or victory improbable, it's always better to bring a damage dealer/tank, since your rook will go down very fast and putting 2 sensor dampners on him will bring him far too close to the action.
The fact that not only must a ship fill it's mids with racial ECM (multi's are normally a waste) but must put at least 2 to 3 sig amps in it's lows to approach (not equal) it's pre-nerf ECM strength, means you cannot even remotely hope to have a tank. Additionally one ECCM module effectively neutralizes 2 to 3 racials and 3x sig amps. 6 modules gone for one defensive module. Compare this to the fact that 1 sensor booster can't hope to overcome 1 RSD and you see the other side of the story.
Those on the receiving end of ECM feel this is fair. Those that (use to) fly the ships tend not to agree. ECM is a dice roll, when the odds are in your favor, it's not a bad bet, but on even or poor odds it's normally better to take your bets off.
While I agree the nerf to ECM was needed and appropriate, the nerf to ECM ships went too far.
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murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.14 00:56:00 -
[57]
ECM isn't 'obsolete'. Not by a long shot.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.08.14 01:03:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 14/08/2007 01:03:17
Originally by: James Lyrus To the OP - I'm afraid so, yes. ECM got nerfed heavily (which was needed) but as a side effect the ECM specialised ships did too (which wasn't IMO).
So you're now, actually better off fitting damps to your rook or scorpion, than you are ECMs.
The change to ECMs, was to half their power, and double the bonuses on ECM specialised ships.
And introduce a mod, that increases ECM power. Net result, a scorp can jam as well as it did, if it fills all its lowslots and rig slots with ECM power rigs and modules.
Which has taken it from 'ok, if you can't fly a T2 sniper' to 'just don't bother and fly a frigate or something instead'.
That's not to say they don't have their uses, but ... well most of these ships are drifting gently to the pile that's marked 'nice, but there's other things you should be flying'.
I love my Scorp. It works fine. Of course 3-4 of its meds are damps so... But the ECM is still vital.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Hannobaal
Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.14 01:55:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Morn Judith Excellent. Theres a lot of good information in this thread. It looks like ECMs weren't super-nerfed, but super-specialized.
One question that I have is how to combat the effects of RSDs? Does ECCM do anything for you? Or is the only way to negate their effects is to remain outside of the 130km bubble? In my opinion, if you've got ECCM to combat the ECM, then there definitely has to be a way to save yourself from RSDs other than FoF missiles.
There's sensor boosters, and in either case all you need is to get in close and lock them and from there on the sensor dampeners are completely useless. ------------------
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.08.14 06:03:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 14/08/2007 06:03:53 Sensor booster are no real counter, they help a bit, but if you realize that:
-75% range reduction from 1 RSD on maxed gallente recons would need a +300% range from 1 sensor boost to compensate.
ECCM is a one trick pony and a real good one even, but since ECM isnt really common any more only very few people use them.
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