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Cipher7
OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:34:00 -
[31]
It's already sharded.
Eve-China.
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Damon Ra
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:40:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Damon Ra
Originally by: Stitcher
In other words, I defy you to name ANYONE who is more qualified to run EVE than the people who fething MADE it.
http://www.idsoftware.com/
I don't know what the hell you're smoking, but keep it away from me....
iD Software produce 3-D rendering software and game engines. They have none of the extensive experience that CCP has in handling large server clusters.
What you just suggested is tantamount to suggesting that Willy Wonka would do very well as a bricklayer.
Yeah, we are all experiencing CCPs "extensive experience" with large server clusters first hand every time the SQL server bugs out or your modules take 2+ minutes to activate when running a mission. I am currently basking in the sheer awe that is the known issues page, where simple bugs are left to languish for months or years or simply are around so long they become features.
Just how many people do you think are personally responsible for server and network architecture at CCP? And of those, how many actually have a hand in how the game is coded? Given the mashup of MS products like MS SQL, and IIS in combination with stackless Python, it almost makes you wonder if they aren't just making this all up as they go along.
I would never suggest that Wonka could be a bricklayer, unless said bricks were made of chocolate. Current Tranquility status: SELECT production_code FROM SISI WHERE testers = 'players' AND testers <> 'ccp_staff' AND testing_duration <> 'sufficient'; |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:42:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Cipher7
It's already sharded.
Eve-China.
for som reason this doesn't count...
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:49:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Damon Ra
Yeah, we are all experiencing CCPs "extensive experience" with large server clusters first hand every time the SQL server bugs out or your modules take 2+ minutes to activate when running a mission. I am currently basking in the sheer awe that is the known issues page, where simple bugs are left to languish for months or years or simply are around so long they become features.
If you know someone who could do a better job, or have a solution yourself, please let us all know.
Quote: Just how many people do you think are personally responsible for server and network architecture at CCP? And of those, how many actually have a hand in how the game is coded? Given the mashup of MS products like MS SQL, and IIS in combination with stackless Python, it almost makes you wonder if they aren't just making this all up as they go along.
So what, are you suggesting that CCP should write their own OS, their own version of SQL, and create an entirely new programming language to facilitate EVE with? I'm not sure if you're familiar with the way software development works, but it's usually cheaper (in the long run), less time-consuming, and more reliable to use 3rd-party solutions where their expertise and experience exceeds your own. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION | Forum Whiners - Unite! |
Grotel
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:56:00 -
[35]
Originally by: StephanieLazyTown Before eve got so big it was "ok" but with so many people playing now (and it just keeps rising) the current system just can NOT handle it.
CCP either DO something about it (fire the guy who is in charge now because he sucks)
OR admit that you have no idea how to handle eve now.
i now take a quote from the mouth of a Mr David Lister
"you are complete and utter goit"
to shard the server takes away eves eve is you will
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.29 14:59:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Grotel
Originally by: StephanieLazyTown Before eve got so big it was "ok" but with so many people playing now (and it just keeps rising) the current system just can NOT handle it.
CCP either DO something about it (fire the guy who is in charge now because he sucks)
OR admit that you have no idea how to handle eve now.
i now take a quote from the mouth of a Mr David Lister
"you are complete and utter goit"
to shard the server takes away eves eve is you will
again mate there is another shard allready:)
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: d026 again mate there is another shard allready:)
The china server exists due to the unique political requirements of internet-enabled games in China. It has nothing to do with the design or the desires of CCP, but it was the only way they could do it. Using Serenity as an example here is not valid. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION | Forum Whiners - Unite! |
Damon Ra
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:08:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tarminic
If you know someone who could do a better job, or have a solution yourself, please let us all know.
I do actually:
This is a REAL DB server. http://www.sun.com/servers/highend/m9000/
This is REAL DB server software: http://www.oracle.com/database/enterprise_edition.html
Attach those shiny RAMSAN's to the above combination, and it won't be the DB acting-up.
Originally by: Tarminic
So what, are you suggesting that CCP should write their own OS, their own version of SQL, and create an entirely new programming language to facilitate EVE with? I'm not sure if you're familiar with the way software development works, but it's usually cheaper (in the long run), less time-consuming, and more reliable to use 3rd-party solutions where their expertise and experience exceeds your own.
I am suggesting that they get out of bed with MS and stop trying to make MS SQL server do something it was never designed to do which is scale. As a matter of fact, I do know a thing or two how software development works, but this isn't a "software" problem it is a server and network architecture problem. Fix that, and CCP's software developers can write sloppy code using a rapid development language like Python and get away with it, because the DB engine backend is up to the task. If they were then to begin addressing their game client and game code, they could take a lesson from ID Software in that they use assembler and C in specific places where the performance of any interpreted code would be less than adequate.
Current Tranquility status: SELECT production_code FROM SISI WHERE testers = 'players' AND testers <> 'ccp_staff' AND testing_duration <> 'sufficient'; |
Cipher7
OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:17:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: d026 again mate there is another shard allready:)
The china server exists due to the unique political requirements of internet-enabled games in China. It has nothing to do with the design or the desires of CCP, but it was the only way they could do it. Using Serenity as an example here is not valid.
Its another shard. The why doesn't matter.
"Its the only way they could do it" is the argument here as well.
Great concept if you can make it work, the point is they can't make it work.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:21:00 -
[40]
so... your ignoring EVERYTHING that is trinity 2.0? nice.
try looking up the 34 dev comments and the dev blog about how eve can't handle the number of players becuase of the ground work holding up the game.
plus the huge ram upgrade in... err... four days!!!!
----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP |
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Cipher7
OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:25:00 -
[41]
Before this thread devolves further into nerdrage, I'd like to dissuade everyone from going down the road of "write the client in assembler" or "switch to Sun."
We're not the experts here, CCP is, its their job to think about architecture and software development methods.
We don't know what they're planning.
All I'm saying is, IF you are out of ideas, IF you just can't make it work, IF you can't comprehend another way to fix the lag/desyncs, THEN sharding is ok with me, ELSE continue on with your efforts.
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Darteis Elosia
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:25:00 -
[42]
Thread starter: Your idea fails. Why would you want to DESTROY eve? Oh and yeah, how the hell are they supposed to shard it? Shuffle current players into the new shards? Yeah thats great, would make everyones experience really consistent.
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Lookatmi Hooters
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:29:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Damon Ra
Originally by: Stitcher
In other words, I defy you to name ANYONE who is more qualified to run EVE than the people who fething MADE it.
http://www.idsoftware.com/
I don't know what the hell you're smoking, but keep it away from me....
iD Software produce 3-D rendering software and game engines. They have none of the extensive experience that CCP has in handling large server clusters.
What you just suggested is tantamount to suggesting that Willy Wonka would do very well as a bricklayer.
Cormack had 16 players playing with excellent 56k pings back before the interweb was even invented. You're suggesting in your post that iD software don't know how to make a game with decent netcode?
/shakes_head
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Darteis Elosia
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:38:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Darteis Elosia on 29/07/2007 15:38:52
Originally by: Lookatmi Hooters
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Damon Ra
Originally by: Stitcher
In other words, I defy you to name ANYONE who is more qualified to run EVE than the people who fething MADE it.
http://www.idsoftware.com/
I don't know what the hell you're smoking, but keep it away from me....
iD Software produce 3-D rendering software and game engines. They have none of the extensive experience that CCP has in handling large server clusters.
What you just suggested is tantamount to suggesting that Willy Wonka would do very well as a bricklayer.
Cormack had 16 players playing with excellent 56k pings back before the interweb was even invented. You're suggesting in your post that iD software don't know how to make a game with decent netcode?
/shakes_head
There is ALOT more to eve than decent net code. For example all the game logic is done by the server, your client acts merely as a terminal. This is done to prevent cheating. i.e you tell your ship to fire at another ship, all of the dice rolls and HP calculations etc will be performed by the server not your client..
In for example Quake 2, that is done locally. Thats why people could write programs to cheat the game by manipulating the games memory variables or read them and play off them..
A 3d first person shooter supporting up to 128 players is VERY much different from EVE how eve works..
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Arachidamia
Matari People's Front
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:43:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Arachidamia on 29/07/2007 15:43:35
Originally by: Darteis Elosia In for example Quake 2, that is done locally. Thats why people could write programs to cheat the game by manipulating the games memory variables or read them and play off them..
I agree with the idea of your post but this point is rubbish. All the hit calcuations are done server side in Quake 2, and has been that way in virtually all FPS'ers ever made. In the FPS, the server is god.
Oh yeah, and in response to the thread idea. Very stupid idea. It would destroy everything Eve is.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.29 15:49:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Tarminic on 29/07/2007 15:52:02
Originally by: Damon Ra
Originally by: Tarminic So what, are you suggesting that CCP should write their own OS, their own version of SQL, and create an entirely new programming language to facilitate EVE with? I'm not sure if you're familiar with the way software development works, but it's usually cheaper (in the long run), less time-consuming, and more reliable to use 3rd-party solutions where their expertise and experience exceeds your own.
I am suggesting that they get out of bed with MS and stop trying to make MS SQL server do something it was never designed to do which is scale. As a matter of fact, I do know a thing or two how software development works, but this isn't a "software" problem it is a server and network architecture problem. Fix that, and CCP's software developers can write sloppy code using a rapid development language like Python and get away with it, because the DB engine backend is up to the task. If they were then to begin addressing their game client and game code, they could take a lesson from ID Software in that they use assembler and C in specific places where the performance of any interpreted code would be less than adequate.
Hm, you bring up several good points actually. Kudos. Unfortunately, given their long-standing relationship using MS SQL, a complete redevelopment using a different proprietary SQL dialect may not be especially feasible, or the devs may be able to more effectively devote their time. I can't say for sure though.
Originally by: Lookatmi Hooters Cormack had 16 players playing with excellent 56k pings back before the interweb was even invented. You're suggesting in your post that iD software don't know how to make a game with decent netcode?
I don't think you can use an analogy of a first person shooter from twenty years ago as a valid comparison to a game that supports hundreds of players on a single server. Also, most FPS games use UDP instead of TCP, since a few dropped packets don't matter much. This is not the case with EVE - it would mean desyncs would literally be everywhere, and could only be solved by a session change.
EDIT:
Originally by: Arachidamia I agree with the idea of your post but this point is rubbish. All the hit calcuations are done server side in Quake 2, and has been that way in virtually all FPS'ers ever made. In the FPS, the server is god.
Well, yes and no. Since FPSs are based on "twitch" gameplay, i.e. manually moving the mouse to target an opponent, they could still be manipulated by having a program read incoming data from the server and then alter the mouse position to automatically aim at an opponent. Thus, the aimbot was born. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION | Forum Whiners - Unite! |
cuteboylookingatyou
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Posted - 2007.08.19 21:31:00 -
[47]
WOw has shard servers but we lag sometimes.
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Glengrant
Minmatar TOHA Heavy Industries OPUS Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.19 22:18:00 -
[48]
What this forum needs is a feature to merge messages with certain keywords (above all "shard") into existing threadnaughts where this has already been done to death - multiple times.
There will be no shards - and it would be a crappy fix anway. Plus - Eve has always been sharded - under the hood. It's not running on a single server (the DB might - I dunno).
Python ain't the problem. The most time-critical code can be done (and probably always has been) in C/Asm extension modules.
There is no lag-free MMOG.
Lag in Eve is not new. The same threads existed when Eve had 6k peak users.
Lag in Eve is not universal. Many players rarely see lag. It all depends on where you are, what you do and factor X. And if factor X were easy to pinpoint - don't you think that CCP would happily have fixed it long ago?
My guess is that the MSSQL DB is the main villain (but that's just a guess). MSSQL is actually not such a bad DB server - certainly much better to administrate than Oracle (last time I checked out-of-the-box tools for Oracle were pathetic). I assume Oracle would scale up much better than MSSQL - but it's not easy to predict such things - and certainly hard to switch DBs now. Lot's of queries and code would have to be adapted.
I'm sure there is a lot that can be done to reduce lag much further - even for a one-universe game as Eve - but a lot of that will require rewriting fundamental code to allow dynamic re-allocating of resources. This is not easy - will take time, is probaly already been in the works for a while - and will anyway not keep people from whining about the fresh bugs and the missing new features they want at the same time.
Don't go to Jita (you don't have to - really - I promise), don't spend a lot of time in multi-hundred ship blobs (that is quite possible) and you will see that lag is not a regular problem even in a one-shard Eve with 35k players.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2007.08.19 22:37:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Lookatmi Hooters
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Damon Ra
Originally by: Stitcher
In other words, I defy you to name ANYONE who is more qualified to run EVE than the people who fething MADE it.
http://www.idsoftware.com/
I don't know what the hell you're smoking, but keep it away from me....
iD Software produce 3-D rendering software and game engines. They have none of the extensive experience that CCP has in handling large server clusters.
What you just suggested is tantamount to suggesting that Willy Wonka would do very well as a bricklayer.
Cormack had 16 players playing with excellent 56k pings back before the interweb was even invented. You're suggesting in your post that iD software don't know how to make a game with decent netcode?
/shakes_head
The internet is older than 56K modems. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word. |
Meleil
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Posted - 2007.08.19 22:44:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Meleil on 19/08/2007 22:44:36 To the OP, go **** yourself. Eve isn't eve without one shard. ~Mel
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UKM JK
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Posted - 2007.08.19 22:56:00 -
[51]
This is an interesting thread, but the one thing u are missing is the simpliest, Name a single game out there that has been released as a pure online game, and never had a single bug involved with that game? Yeah Thought so,
Still thinking, exactly none... Every game has its bug issues, little exploits and the cheats that hurt it, but as u say eve has been around a long time and for every month it is running near 24/7 is a testament to the ability that CCP have to run a single 30000 man server with the odd few issues, The one thing that doesnt help lag in heavy load systems is that not everyone here has 10 meg cable connection, i know a few people that play by a cell phone just plugged into the laptop, interesting yes, so before all of the: change the server code, or u have so much money get Bill Gates to come and have a look and rewrite Microsoft so we can all have a better day...........
If u read the Dev Blogs (which for all of u who sit on the forums waiting for a slight server issue to demand a refund or other things) Eve is being updated to bring the graphics engine up to date and make the game a lot better......... So when Christmas comes and it is still no better then finally make the decision to go and find a new game but stop increasing the server load by Bit**ing all day about a game that is simple enough to leave..........
Just my piece as i do get irritated with the game aswell but money can only buy so much
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Staple diet
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Posted - 2007.08.19 23:07:00 -
[52]
Though i hate the idea of sharding, The ONLY way i could ever see sharding work in EvE is to make a dedicated PVP server. No Sec status, no secure space... Just all out war.
It won't do much to server loads, but i dare say it would draw a few thousand players off the main server... The idea almost appeals to me, the number of tasty looking targets i've seen flying through high sec full of all that lovely loot :) And not to forget, the chance to gank some good old Concord npc's would be good too :D
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Khorian
Gallente Excidium.
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Posted - 2007.08.19 23:42:00 -
[53]
I think John Carmack himself had offered Funcom to help with their code for Anarchy Online back in the day, because he liked the concept of it. Funcom declined and the launch of the game was a struggle because it was barely playable. Carmack thought he could optimize the code BACK THEN, so I think he still knows a thing or two that might help CCP.
Carmack is god. Don't question his omnipotence.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.08.19 23:49:00 -
[54]
Carmack is the Devil.. Gaming before Doom was a varied and entertaining mix of dozens of styles of gameplay.. After Doom every Dev and his dog copied it and now we have the wasteland of generic gaming clones called Shoot!/RPG!/Hentai!..
Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Sgt Blade
An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.20 00:00:00 -
[55]
eve is fine atm and it can hadle it i dont see any problems here
Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5 |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.20 00:03:00 -
[56]
This still counts as Necro. Even if it is a little.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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CrestoftheStars
Recoil Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.08.20 00:13:00 -
[57]
Originally by: StephanieLazyTown
Originally by: Cypherous
Originally by: StephanieLazyTown
Originally by: Cypherous Sharding is bad mmmkay it removes what EVE is :P
well can the devs at least admit then that they have no idea how to handle what eve has turned into?
What is there to admit, you want them to admit that the server can't handle a completely random buildup of 600 people who want to shoot each other, if you're such a genius give them a viable solution to fix the lag rather than whining behind and alt all the time.
well i do know of a game called planetside in which it is not uncommon to have 300 people in a battle and you suffer little to no lag at all.
or add to the fact in WoW when 6+ guilds would raid 40 man instances on the same server back in the day.
or in EQ when you would have 500+ people in the plane of time back in the day...
bottom line is there is no reason why we should be putting up with this kind of lag- CCP has more than enough money to hire the RIGHT people for the job and stop giving out jobs to ******s.
problem is not having the 500 people there, the problem is when they start to fire, which means the server have to make a ton of calculations for each shot and send it.
but yes there is a big problem with the pvp as it is, not just the lag feast ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Sharupak
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2007.08.20 01:01:00 -
[58]
ooooooooooooooooaughrrrrd.
This thread sucked just as bad the first go around.
*Army of Darkness little goody two shoes voice on*
CCP fix the lag CCP fix amar CCP fix suicide ganking CCP WOW is better cause it gives me a handjob CCP I want a handjob CCP my bot.net hosting PC crashes in Jita
_______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
JamesTalon
Caldari Electric Fury Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.20 01:39:00 -
[59]
Originally by: StephanieLazyTown well i do know of a game called planetside in which it is not uncommon to have 300 people in a battle and you suffer little to no lag at all.
Played Planetside, and the reason there wasn't any lag was because those 300 people were spread out and you didn't need to know where each person was.
Originally by: StephanieLazyTown or in EQ when you would have 500+ people in the plane of time back in the day...
And of course, they are all in the same place in said plane like the large fleet battles in Eve? Doubtful.
Originally by: StephanieLazyTown bottom line is there is no reason why we should be putting up with this kind of lag- CCP has more than enough money to hire the RIGHT people for the job and stop giving out jobs to ******s.
They don't give jobs out to ******s, but they do unfortunatly have an abundance on the forums lately. "Return with your shield, or on it." |
Kolatha
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Posted - 2007.08.20 01:57:00 -
[60]
Originally by: StephanieLazyTown
CCP either DO something about it (fire the guy who is in charge now because he sucks)
OR admit that you have no idea how to handle eve now.
Read the latest dev blog about RevelationsIII found HERE and specifically the part about Infiniband, RDMA and being able to scale a single solar system across multiple CPUs (found at the bottom of the page.
I think they have a pretty good idea on how to deal with the current problems.
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