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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.06 11:12:00 -
[181]
1. Suicide ganking is NOT an exploit. It's meant to be like that. If it wasn't, you couldn't lock people in highsec unless you had a war on or somesuch. 2. Necroing useless chats about making suicide ganking an exploit ? BAD ! _
EVE GOLDEN RULES | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Nasair
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Posted - 2007.09.06 11:26:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Akita T The ONLY TWO SURE WAYS to protect yourself COMPLETELY from suicide gankers ? 1. Never haul stuff that's worth more than what's needed to pop you open in the couple of seconds before CONCORD arrives and toasts the offenders. 2. Always use at least one scout, best use several scouts, on both sides of the next gate AND on arrival gate.
Everything else is just caca-del-torro. Nothing else really helps there.
You CAN'T hide stuff in cans, not even secure ones, and especially not in courier packages. All the contents of all the containers you carry show up in cargoscans.
You CAN'T get help from friends to survive the suiciding. If CONCORD can't stop them from killing you, do you really think they'll be bothered by a few friends ? Or, better said, do you think they stand a chance remote repairing you ? If that was the case, they'd do it all the time in fleet battles when people get called primary. THAT NEVER HAPPENDS, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.
Note: even the above "surefire ways to protect your cargo" are not 100% idiot-proof. There could always be a traitor involved, especially if you carry a large amount of valuable stuff around on a regular basis.
Yeah who would want to use a logistic ship anyway, it only has the repping power of an internal capital rep broken up into nice 6 second chunks, no, no help at all against those caracals
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2007.09.06 11:37:00 -
[183]
Nowhere anywhere does it tell you that you are safe in high sec. your (stupid) friend is better off out of the game if he quits because of one loss. This is not the game for him, or you tbh. :P
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Aaron
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Posted - 2007.09.06 11:50:00 -
[184]
Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 05:48:14
Good ol' JOhn Doe is walking down the street to go to the local store. Suddenly he is jumped by a gang, beaten, and stolen from. The cops come and arrest the offenders. But they let them keep the wallet filled with cash and let the man sit there, ignoring his obviously fatal injuries. Whats more, the officers replace the gangmembers tattered clothes and pay medical expenses for the injuries they may have occured while engaged in combat with the dude.
it is quite silly when you think about it.
Going back to real life, insurance policies always have many terms and conditions, in eve however i think it is just 1, u cant repackage the insured ship else insurance will be invalid.
All it would take is just to add a condition where if the user is the aggressor in secure space then ship insurance becomes invalid if ship is lost, if the ship is not lost and they are the aggressor, then the insurance policy must be renewed at half the cost of original policy. this will make suicide ganking a bit more costly for the gankers.
either way the person being suicide ganked loses out, even if the gankers dont get insurance payouts , they still get all the loot. and an aggression counter that means nothing, the victim is in no position to fight for his loot.
seriously though, u guys have got to stop carrying large amounts of goods, i know its good to get the haulage done quickly but u need to exersize patience here. try doing a few jumps minutes before downtime, or travel directly after downtime, try and fit cloaks then you can asses the gate for possible gankers. take your haulage very seriously, and dont take silly risks.
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Mad Scorpion
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Posted - 2007.09.06 12:01:00 -
[185]
Well looks like it boils down to this:
1) There is NO safe place to fly in EVE. 2) Never run that much ISK in a flimsy, slow T1 hauler. 3) Never fly AFK 4) If you need to haul a few bil ISK worth of stuff, break it up and use a well armored ship loaded to the gills with Warp Core Stabilizers. Make several trips. 5) ALWAYS expect the worse possible situation and be prepared for it.
I hope your friend comes back to EVE. It's the very danger of this game that keeps me coming back after each time I quit for a short break.
Mad Scorpion
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Macmuelli
Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.09.06 12:09:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Macmuelli on 06/09/2007 12:09:44 The crap thing on this situations is , that suicide gankers will be hourned by concord. Loosing the ship means u get your insurance back or the worth of minerals in isks.
There is only one Part( suicde gankers) who will ever win, if they find someone who is carry a lot of worthfull stuff around without protection.
Sucide gankings and concord actions should not be honored by concord. (no insurance payback if u get killed doing a criminal act inside high sec system.)
Concord shoud take suicide gankers for a "short ammount of time" into prison. ( this woud let ppls think about if it s worth doing it. Simple math calculation loot vrs time)
If The Player wanna go out of prison he had to pay a " caution ". In this time he should not leave the system as long Concord have found a sentence.
This woud not keep ppls from doing suicide gankings, only think about if its worth. If sentences are expensive, or keep u from playing.
Not the possibilty of doing suicide ganking shoud be change, only the consequences doing it.
It s all time bad to hear ppls which playing long time the game leaving it , cos of situations they have an unfair touch.
breg mac
Ps : Jita 600 ppls+... 4-4 station docking.... 40 secs loading time(sometimes more sometimes less like russsian roulette then)..... blackscreen...... Upps im in pod ... and i couldnt do anything just accepting....
this cannot not be the way
my personal minds
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
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Lyn Z
Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites
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Posted - 2007.09.06 13:07:00 -
[187]
Your friend likely carebeared himself into that 2b. Then he decided to tra-la-la it all in a cheap hauler AFK.
His fault.
Not an exploit.
Get over it.
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William Alex
Viscosity
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Posted - 2007.09.06 13:08:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Ladyah Liandri
..stuff...
Originally by: RFwills The main thing wrong with that scenario is that the criminals end up better off then the friggin victim. This would encourage crime in real life as it does in Eve. The gankers in eve are reimbursed for ships, and get to get all the loot afterwards.
That is correct. And I admit that there are flaws.
Even if a ganker doesn't get anything insurance will cover his loss. And given the current ship build costs he'd actually make profit out of it.
The sec hit for ganking is kind of negligible if you ain't doing it full-time. So you are right - for some people a career in the ganking field might seem attractive.
..stuff..
I think this is finally one of the professions that CCP's been promising us all along.
Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
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Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.09.06 13:13:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Gerrard Lea No place is safe, only safer :P
Eve Golden Rules |
Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.09.06 13:38:00 -
[190]
Quote: If you had to seriously f'n get repped just to move about hisec safely then that is ridiculous in every sense of the word
You don't need to, you just shouldn't be hauling around 2b+ per trip. If you don't it isn't economicly viable for suicide gankers to destroy the freighter.
Freighters were designed to move around, well, freight... If you do decide to use it for expensive loads then it's your own fault. Just make more then 1 trip.
Quote:
Next thing: Concord is meant to protect the innocent right? Just like in real life? Well then concord isnt doing its job. Lemme give you an example of how it would be in real life if police forces acted like concord.
Concord is there to nuke the attackers, which they do. It's even an exploit to not loose your ship after aggressing. But no it isn't Concords task to prevent killings.
--- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.09.06 14:16:00 -
[191]
It is certainly not exploit, but it is certainly easy-money mode. And this easy-money mode must be nerfed. A ECM had been nerfed. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and < |
hedfunk
Caldari High Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.09.06 14:24:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Undercover Palmtree Edited by: Undercover Palmtree on 21/07/2007 14:36:37 I've been suicide ganked and have suicide ganked A LOT of people. More likely 10x more people then the people who killed your friend. I've done all the math and have the whole thing down to a science. Out of 2 months or so of doing this all I can say is...
It's not that profitable. Yes I know that you can find people who carry cargo worth billions, but you don't find those people every 5 minutes. And when you do, they are not always on auto-pilot and warping to 15km (giving you enough time to lock, scan, determine if he's worth attacking, get in range, and attack) and they are not always in a paper thing Iteron I. So esentially you end up spending a few hours (and we camp the highest traffic gates in the game) having to be very attentive, and scan everything going through. More often than not everybody gets a little bored and when something big goes through people are not paying attention and the person gets too close to the gate to engage. Other times they are in a transport, which has as much Armor/Shields/Structure as a battleship almost and cannot be taken down unless you have ridiculous firepower. Most people though.. just warp to 0, and there is no way to kill those people unless you have a very large group and everybody is very well organized.. and I mean VERY well ogranized, and at that point you could do more profitable things anyways.
The other problem is that what survives is completely random. We've killed people who carry over 1 billion in cargo (and not just one item, over 150 items) and almost everything blew up with them. Yes, sometimes almost all of it must survive, but most of the time you lose a lot of the money.
Essentially the whole things is a lottery game. You sit at a gate for hours, hoping that some idiot will come through on auto-pilot, carrying everything he owns, in the weakest hauling ship in the game and that when you blow him up, he is going to drop most of the loot. Can it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no. It's the same chance as you going ratting and a faction item dropping thats worth 2 billion isk. Does it happen? yes. Does it happen often? Lol... no.
Oh and PS, the people who killed your friend were a bunch of idiots. You don't suicide gank with T2 drones. You need a single Brutix, full ion blasters, anti-matter ammo, explosive damage drones (not thermal, those people were really stupid). and magnetic field stabilizers.
The idea is that Iterons have almost no shields, and because they use cargo expanders they have almost no hull either, that only leaves about 1000 armor to get through, so you max out on explosive damage. Drones are not what gets the job done, blasters are, because blasters are the highest dps weapon in the game. When you pull up in optimal range and shoot an Iteron I with 7 med blasters with antimatter they will blow up in 5-10 seconds (That's just 1 brutix). The drones just seal the deal.
To all those people thinking it's the drones that make this possbile because they keep attacking when concord gets there... those people are REALLY REALLY stupid and have no clue how suicide ganking works what so ever. When concord gets there you blow up almost instantly. It doesn't matter that you use drones or not, the whole idea is to kill the target before concord gets there, which is very easy to do.
You can't of been very good at it then, or just very unlucky, permenantley. Suicide ganking is very cost effective. As in 2months ago, I had 30mill after playing like 6/7months. Now I have billions.
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THEGREAT LOBO
Trouble Every Day
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Posted - 2007.09.06 14:30:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Noluck Ned The biggest problem and in fact the very root of the whole highsec gank problem is that there are still nubs who fly about in untanked t1 haulers with billions in their cargo hold. THAT is the real reason this situation exists.
ITS THEIR OWN FAULT FOR BEING SO EASY TO KILL WITH AMAZING REWARDS FOR DOING SO.
Very True, If you are going to carry 2 bill worth of stuff, a frieghter is the way to go. any ity will not last long at all if you get attacked.
And in jita ? carrying 2 bill worth of stuff in an ity in jita is just asking to ganked.
Welcome to eve, The safest you get is when you are docked up ---------------------------------------------
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hedfunk
Caldari High Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.09.06 14:41:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Macmuelli Edited by: Macmuelli on 06/09/2007 12:13:53 Edited by: Macmuelli on 06/09/2007 12:09:44 The crap thing on this situations is , that suicide gankers will be hourned by concord. Loosing the ship means u get your insurance back or the worth of minerals in isks.
That wouldn't bother me or my gangmates. We lose a minimal amount with or without insurance.
Originally by: Macmuelli There is only one Part( suicde gankers) who will ever win, if they find someone who is carry a lot of worthfull stuff around without protection.
That's kind of the point of doing it though isn't it? Stupid point.
Originally by: Macmuelli Sucide gankings and concord actions should not be honored by concord. (no insurance payback if u get killed doing a criminal act inside high sec system.)
As pointed out, that wouldn't matter to alot of people, and we get a sec hit aswell.
Originally by: Macmuelli Concord shoud take suicide gankers for a "short ammount of time" into prison. ( this woud let ppls think about if it s worth doing it. Simple math calculation loot vrs time)
We can't undock for 15minutes after a kill.
Originally by: Macmuelli If The Player wanna go out of prison he had to pay a " caution ". In this time he should not leave the system as long Concord have found a sentence.
This woud not keep ppls from doing suicide gankings, only think about if its worth. If sentences are expensive, or keep u from playing.
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Originally by: Macmuelli Not the possibilty of doing suicide ganking shoud be change, only the consequences doing it.
It s all time bad to hear ppls which playing long time the game leaving it , cos of situations they have an unfair touch.
There are consequenses for suicide ganking. Anyone quitting over them getting suicided ganked should never of played the game imo. It's there own fault at the end of the day. It's easily avoided. Really easily.
breg mac
Originally by: Macmuelli Ps : Jita 600 ppls+... 4-4 station docking.... 40 secs loading time(sometimes more sometimes less like russsian roulette then)..... blackscreen...... Upps im in pod ... and i couldnt do anything just accepting....
Any suicide gankers who suicide in Jita, I laugh at. It osn't only laggy for the victim. The chances of getting your loot stolen is very high, and the chance of getting concorded without a successful kill is high due to lag.
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Shanur
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:13:00 -
[195]
Originally by: ry ry OP. just a though,
a regular megathron fitted with a full set of cargo expander IIs, 3 cargo optimisation rig IIs and 4 LES IIs can carry about 6400m3 cargo and has 20k shields.
i've named it the afkhaulathron.
Posted today. Post before that: 2007.07.23 11:45:00
IMOTHEP! IMOTHEP! IMOTHEP!
What were you hoping to achieve in terms of constructive progress by necroing an old thread about a topic as controversial as suicide ganking?
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nightslasher
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:41:00 -
[196]
Originally by: RFwills
Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp.
I guess it is fair then that I sign that I DISAGREE with your position, and believe that what your friend experienced should NOT be stopped.
I do sympathize, however....
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William Alex
Viscosity
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:46:00 -
[197]
Risk/Reward of suicide ganking is quite low. If you haul more than 50mil you're a target. That's a problem.
Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:47:00 -
[198]
Originally by: nightslasher
Originally by: RFwills
Thats all I have to say, please comment and sign if you agree that this is an exploit and should be stopped by ccp.
I guess it is fair then that I sign that I DISAGREE with your position, and believe that what your friend experienced should NOT be stopped.
I do sympathize, however....
I think we've been having a slight zombie problem lately.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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William Alex
Viscosity
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:50:00 -
[199]
It's still an issue, that's probably why the thread wasn't locked for necro.
Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
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ry ry
StateCorp The State
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:54:00 -
[200]
the threads only a few weeks old - it's hardly the same as resurrecting a thread about beng ganked by m0o as you flew 100million isks worth of minerals around.
if all you have to contribute to a thread is OMFG NECRO LOLZ! you are mistaken: you actually have nothing to contribute.
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:56:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Jinx Barker Perhaps some mechanics need to be adjusted, but for Pete's sake, stop screaming and yelling at the top of your lungs "Exploit" - it is not, and never will be, it is a valid game mechanic that was part of the game since the inception. Empire was never meant to be "safe" - it is MORE SECURE than other places, thats it. I went plenty of times to Jita, got really good mods, and got attacked at the gate. Some sensible ship setups+warp to 0, and you can survive almost anything in a Blockade Runner, or an Assault Ship like Ishkur.
Wrong, it is a Exploit/oversight. Why do you suppose only 1 type of ship is used to pull it off? Because CCP forgot to code Concord to jam drones. So while the cops are happily jamming the Domi out the Waazu, its drones continue happily blowing up the freighter.
Try maiking a ganksquad using Blasters and megathrons instead, and see what the cost of a ganksquad would be... It would be much more in line.
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MITSUK0
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:59:00 -
[202]
lol
I cannot remember reading anywhere that empire high-sec was "safe". It just has concord to kill people who agress unlawfully.
Maybe if yor friend had not been ******** enough to carry 2bil around without escort then it would not have happened. (All you need is one or two logistics ships for your "escort" btw).
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Macmuelli
Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.09.06 16:05:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Macmuelli on 06/09/2007 16:05:58
Originally by: Macmuelli Sucide gankings and concord actions should not be honored by concord. (no insurance payback if u get killed doing a criminal act inside high sec system.)
As pointed out, that wouldn't matter to alot of people, and we get a sec hit aswell.
"A Sec hit is compare to fast. Go into 0.0 Kill some npc and u back in no time to + standing."
Originally by: Macmuelli Concord shoud take suicide gankers for a "short ammount of time" into prison. ( this woud let ppls think about if it s worth doing it. Simple math calculation loot vrs time)
We can't undock for 15minutes after a kill.
"U can undock in your Pod and board a new one or not ? and what is 15 minutes ? i vote for 30."
Originally by: Macmuelli If The Player wanna go out of prison he had to pay a " caution ". In this time he should not leave the system as long Concord have found a sentence.
This woud not keep ppls from doing suicide gankings, only think about if its worth. If sentences are expensive, or keep u from playing.
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Originally by: Macmuelli Not the possibilty of doing suicide ganking shoud be change, only the consequences doing it.
It s all time bad to hear ppls which playing long time the game leaving it , cos of situations they have an unfair touch.
There are consequenses for suicide ganking. Anyone quitting over them getting suicided ganked should never of played the game imo. It's there own fault at the end of the day. It's easily avoided. Really easily.
" the consequences are not balanced, if u see freighters goes down in 40 seconds.And see that ppls using battleships for suicide ganking,with the knowledge getting back the insurance/or minimum the minerals worth of the ship after doing it."
This should be changed
breg mac
"Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Steel-Wolfs
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Posted - 2007.09.06 16:05:00 -
[204]
Originally by: MITSUK0 lol
I cannot remember reading anywhere that empire high-sec was "safe". It just has concord to kill people who agress unlawfully.
Maybe if yor friend had not been ******** enough to carry 2bil around without escort then it would not have happened. (All you need is one or two logistics ships for your "escort" btw).
If you believe that, then your a bigger noob than the guy who got ganked.
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hedfunk
Caldari High Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.09.06 16:47:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Steel Tigeress
Wrong, it is a Exploit/oversight. Why do you suppose only 1 type of ship is used to pull it off? Because CCP forgot to code Concord to jam drones. So while the cops are happily jamming the Domi out the Waazu, its drones continue happily blowing up the freighter.
Try maiking a ganksquad using Blasters and megathrons instead, and see what the cost of a ganksquad would be... It would be much more in line.
Plenty of different ships suicide gank. I don't use drones at all. It is no exploit at all.
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Ciphero
The Wild Hunt FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.06 17:19:00 -
[206]
Originally by: RFwills Edited by: RFwills on 08/06/2007 06:26:47 You can disagree all you want, I encourage healthy debate, but when this *** happens to you and youre out a couple bil, you just might be finding yourself singing a different tune.
Actually, I've lost significant amounts due to my own stupidity as well, albeit not in exactly the same way. I admitted it was my fault (lag issues aside, there is always something you could have done to prevent loss), changed my tactics and didn't make the same mistake again.
That is the attitude that Eve breeds. Accept that things will not always go your way and learn from the mistakes you make. Your friend made one and he paid for it. He had three choices - adapt, ignore and make the mistake again or leave the game - same as everyone else. Frankly, if you don't choose the first one, Eve is not for you - that's fine, but it's not worth crying over.
Sympathies to your friend, but isn't just the gankers that killed him. He presented himself to lose a lot of isk if he ran into gankers. Sucks for him that, on that day, he did.
--
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Ix Ugnot
Mineral Investment Bank Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.06 20:37:00 -
[207]
Seems to me the elephant in the room is the momentum of the existing player base and the acceptance of new players to join the eve community (to..uh..play the game because they "enjoy it"). Everything else is irrelevant.
The game WILL ONLY continue if new players are added and existing player stay to pay. Killing new players as they exit their station for the first time is just another example of the "strange gameplay" of "certain" individuals. Change the way things are set up in high security or its just a matter of time otherwise.
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Hirakai Forias
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Posted - 2007.09.06 20:59:00 -
[208]
I've just discovered that "Hello Kitty Online" is actually a real game.
This disturbs me.
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Vishnej
Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.09.06 21:00:00 -
[209]
The problem is that suicide ganking is too profitable, too easy to fix (via ratting) standings, too replaceable (via insurance), and too opportunistic (via cargoscanning). The stupidity of using a t1 hauler to transport billions was the issue years ago. The issue now is that CONCORD is impotent enough against drones and tanking boosts that people can get away with murder.
I personally like the current balance of CONCORD - they're not super-powerful, and it's possible to escape in the right ship. I think the Sentry Guns are significantly underpowered compared to how they used to be, and need a doubling off DPS. The problem is that the ships being paper-thin against sentries and concord was the easy numerical hack that fixed suicide ganking and aided gate ganking previously.
I would solve all this with a doubling of sentry DPS, and one simple measure: cargoscanning = aggression.
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Cpt Fina
Insult to Injury
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Posted - 2007.09.06 21:24:00 -
[210]
Remove insurance and for gods sake let freighterpilots tank their ships.
There should be a risk vs reward in highsec too. The problem is that the traders/haulers in freighters have very few options to insure their safety in a way that donĘt ruin their profits.
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